Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

50-50 IMHO. I dont see either side having an insurmountable advantage over the other, and they are almost polar opposites in abilities IMO. they make for a great battle, if nothing else.

I say 5:5. Take 5 points either way. I don't care. Although I will say this. 170? I consistantly kill Bowsers at 130-150. If he's at 170 I'm doing something wrong. Although the only Bowsers I've really played are my friends, DiasFlac's(online), and Vex's (also online)

Bowser does tend to live for quite a while... however if he's living a little bit longer than to your expectations, just start going for damage and get an U-Throw off.

P.S. I need comments to eat away to the next post, somebody help me out here so I don't get infracted for spam, IDC if your posts contain Steak or not (although some legits would be much better... or Steak is good too... probably use both for maximum benefit).

This will be the 13th post FYI.

Shouldn't we talk about stages, instead of moving on?

14th

Ummm how many posts do you need? I'm not on the normal posts per page. I get like... 30 or something.

Number 15

bowser king said:

I lived to 199 against Gf2tw's sonic an that was on wifi (which I don't do well on AT ALL).

Most average powered chars kill bowser close to 130+

For sonic it's probably 160+ unless he's able to use fsmash, uair or some other fresh move.

-Bowser King

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But I've lived up to 227 with Snake against a Sonic so...

lol... i live to like, 180 vs my brothers DK sometimes, other times i die at 80. you cant seriously say that bowsers KO range operates at a maximum, while Sonic only has a minimum.

I've lived to 210 or so against Sonic WITH Sonic. Just sayin' It's not THAT big a deal. 20-30 percent is one ASC combo.

Chis said:

But I've lived up to 227 with Snake against a Sonic so...

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Did you read the part where I said "average"? Since when has Ike been classified as average...

djbrowny said:

lol... i live to like, 180 vs my brothers DK sometimes, other times i die at 80. you cant seriously say that bowsers KO range operates at a maximum, while Sonic only has a minimum.

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Where did I mention bowser's KO'ing ability in that at all?

Fine, maybe it was just a once in a time thing but there is no denying that bowser can live to 155+ vs sonic. On the other hand, it takes bowser very little time to kill sonic. At maximum, a sonic player would live till 120-130 on average.

-Bowser King

Umm... he didn't say anything about Ike... lol

Chis said:

Shouldn't we talk about stages, instead of moving on?

14th

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Terios the Hedgehog said:

Ummm how many posts do you need? I'm not on the normal posts per page. I get like... 30 or something.

Number 15

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Oh yes, good call on that.

BTW Terios, the default posts per page in a thread are at the 15 limit.

Stages... probably Lylat cruise, I get a feeling you don't want to push your luck by going to Rainbow Cruise.

Good thing there already was a discussion before we had to bump the thread unecessarily. >.>

Honestly, if they an Lylat, I am not sure where you would want to take/avoid Bowser, any suggestions fellas?

bowser king said:

Did you read the part where I said "average"? Since when has Ike been classified as average...

-Bowser King

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Look at my sig. I just put his icon there for the lulz .

Nothing to do with my post.

Kinzer said:

Oh yes, good call on that.

BTW Terios, the default posts per page in a thread are at the 15 limit.

Stages... probably Lylat cruise, I get a feeling you don't want to push your luck by going to Rainbow Cruise.

Good thing there already was a discussion before we had to bump the thread unecessarily. >.>

Honestly, if they an Lylat, I am not sure where you would want to take/avoid Bowser, any suggestions fellas?

Click to expand...

Go to the counterpick and ban thrad in the bowser boards. They give a rough idea of sages bowser does bad on at the end (we haven't discussed sonic yet...).

Chis said:

Look at my sig. I just put his icon there for the lulz .

Nothing to do with my post.

Click to expand...

Oh....I see

-Bowser King

Erm, but can I get like a quick jest of Bowser's bad/good stages though? Sometimes it doesn't even have to be discussed or caharacter specific to figure out where we should go.

An example would be that Sonic on his own does fine on every stage (except Japes) and most of the cast really won't change that (there are exceptions, but you know where I'm trying to get, right?)

Besides that, we're discussing it right now, are we not?

So hows 'bout dem Lylats? i herd dey is doin' gewd dis seazon?

I always CP frigate for like... everything lol.
does bowser do ok there? first stage right ledge should always lead to problems for characters with mediocre recoveries

Frigate seems like a decent "meh, what can go wrong here?" CP, I'll make a mention of that.

Don't make a post or I'll kill you.

Like seriously now.

...

Is it good?

Alright then, I'll leave this open for Lucario, feel free to continue discussing teh Boozer.

Well, I'll feel like reporting myself for triple posting right now, seeing as how I can't @#$%ing count.

That's fine though, the points will go away.

...

In a month...

Lucario



Introduction: Lucario is one of the 4th generation Pokemon, and the latest addition to the Brawl. Lucario has a unique ability called "Aura" that allows him to channel his "life energy", if you will, into extra burst damage. Playing Lucario is a huge gamble that if played correctly can change what seems to be a lost cause of a match, and just barely snatch the victory flag for himself. Let's go more in-depth to fully understand this character, shall we?

Behaviour: At the very start of the match, Lucario will deal minimal damage... or rather string a lot of those weak attacks into actual, factual combos, no joke! Of course if the Lucario is worth anything, he will charge his signature Aura Sphere and save it for when it is opportune, but I'll explain that later. To understand Lucario you need to know the formula that helps him surpass the likes of Bowser in sheer strength.

For every single point of damage that has accumulated on Lucario before his stock gets knocked out, Lucario's attacks will only keep getting stronger in damage output and knockback, or the ones that are boosted by his Aura (note, Lucario has very few attacks that are not affected by Aura). While at first this could make Lucario pose little threat, it becomes a major problem when he gets to stay alive and you don't kill him off fast enough, and the fact that Lucario can already rack up damage fine when his life force isn't in danger of being taken out. You cannot afford to let him live or you will soon be fighting a very steep, uphill battle to try and turn back the momentum into your favor.

Lucario has a very solid game all-around, and can adapt to any situation regardless of the factors. You will find that Lucario has a lot of attacks that stretch out farther than you might expect and can catch you off-gaurd just barely. The only downside that is obvious is that will have a hard time killing if he isn't about to be knocked off the stage anytime soon. In case you didn't know, the Aura boost usually stops at somewhere at ~180%, so any more damage on Lucario just makes it a little bit easier to kill him as he can no longer gain any benefit at that static percent.

Now that you know what Lucario is capable of, let's just see what exactly he will be using and for what purpose.

Commonly Used Moves:

Aura Sphere: Though I already made mention of this, I was very vague of it, and it is better that you know the fine details of this projectile so that you can have an easier time not getting hit. It is a chargeable projectile that can be canceled to either start recharging again at a later time, or he can release it then to fake you out. From the start Aura Spheres are pretty small, and if you have ever played Super Smash Bros. Melee, they work in the same sense that Mewtwo's Shadow Ball would curve in anything but a straight line. As it gets bigger, it covers more range (duh), and a more linear path.. pretty simple to see it coming, right? Wrong, Remember that I said Lucario can just save the Aura Sphere to fire at anytime, and he can stop the charge before it comes to maximum strength (for him it won't make any difference in the long-run) and he can mindgame you with this if you don't keep track of it, therefore he can catch you off-guard with this if you are not on your toes! When Lucario is low on damage, the enigmatic menace is about half the size of Lucario, but the Aura Sphere is obviously affected by his Aura, and when Lucario is charging this at a high percent, the thing is taller and wider than even Sonic! If this does not kill you, you will take a whopping 21% damage!

Dair: Falco's Lucario's bread & butter in the air, it stalls Lucario in the air like Marth's first strike Dancing Blade, a very powerful two-hit combo, drains shields very well, spammable, kills, and can be used as a mixup or to end one of his aerial combos. A very potent move indeed. If he's coming down on your shield with this when he's low on the ground do a FTilt OoS.

Nair: Just thought I should make mention of this, even though it won't be used as say the likes of some of his other attacks, but it is still note-worthy. Comes out very fast, covers both sides of him, has a small lingering hitbox, and IASA frames on landing.

Fair: A very elegant move for sure, cover Lucario at about a 120 degree angle, very disjointed, fast, and combos in on itself, mostly used as an edgegaurd doe to it's small lingering hitbox as well.

Just beware of his Bair an Uair, which although have start-up time, are more likely than any of his other aerials to kill, seeing as how Dair will usually be decayed due to being spammed as a damage-racking move... kind of like Sonic's Bair.

Moving away from aerials, let's look at his tilts

Utilt: Like his Fair, covers a lot of him (in fact, it hits around him like Ike's USmash, and if I didn't know any better, could kill the same way). leads into more Utilts, and is fast.

Ftilt: A simple two-hit move, noticeable disjointedness, moderately fast, kills, can be angled up, but I'm not sure if they will do anything significant, and a bit of a shield pushback on it, so if you're hit on shield with it, you will not be able to punish him for it.

Dtilt, though not as fantastic as some other attacks, has some IASA (In As Soon As) frames, kills since it won't be decayed, stops a lot of attacks in their tracks, and has a little bit of lag that you can see if used one after the other.

Let's look into the other special attacks Lucario has.

Double Team: No, this is not a commonly used move, at least not by any good Lucarios, and the reason why I am making a category for this move in particular is because I want you know how easy it is to punish it and how much **** you dish out to Lucario for even attempting to hit you with this trash. If you know how Ike's/Marth's Counter work, you have the same story here, but instead Lucario has terrible ending lag if you don't set off his attack, is a very bad move to use as a stall in midair, and if you do happen to set off Double Team, you can SHIELD the counter attack as long as you haven't hit him with any of your attacks that have a lot of ending lag behind them, and if you shoeld that you can do whatever you please from there. If you are quick enough, you can even land a Forward on him!

Extreme Speed: Again, you will not ever see this move from good Lucario's unless they are going to use it as a mix-up for recovery to walljump onto the ledge, or they have no other choice but to use it if they want to live. Extreme Speed can be angled to go wherever Lucario wishes to go... of course the distance on ES is finite, but moving on... Extreme Speed does not do damage, so if you hit Lucario at a low angle where not even a double jump would suffice, you are safe to place an attack to hit him back, or if he tries to go for the ledge answer with an edgehog and he shall plummet to his doom.

Force Palm: The only special attack that isn't Aura Sphere and is actually useful. Force Palm acts like a grab such as Bowser's Koopa Klaw or Wario's bite where he punches right through the opponent and send them off. If he doesn't grab anybody at the start, he will later do a small flame from his hand with a small hitbox that trips people. Let's assume he grabs you since he won't be using Force Palm for anything but the thrash. When both Lucario and his opponent are at low %ages, Force Palm will chain in on itself, and depending on the player/opponent, they cannot get out of the "chaingrab" until after 2-5 grabs if not more. If both you and Lucario are at high %ages, and assuming he hasn't decayed the attack, it will kill. Both Force Palm grab and Force Palm Flame share the same stale move decay. Can be comboed from his 1-2 Jab, however there are some dead frames before he does this, so if he does the 1-2 Force Palm teach him a lesson by Springing in his face, or anything that works for that matter.

Grabs: I recall something about Lucario having a bad horizontal grab range, but I also do remember something about how he can grab opponents from his ears and still bind you in place. I believe it was for Force Pal, but just assume it works for one or the other or both, it won't really matter if this is wrong/right. Anyway Lucario has great throws all-around. His Forward throw is a quick thrust that is boosted in power by his aura, his U-throw is a mediocre throw that once it doesn't follow up into things like Utilts/Fairs/Nairs/etc., Lucario will not use it, this throw as well gain a boost from his Aura but will not kill you even with you and him at high percentages. His Back Throw is a seismic toss that throws you quite a ways, not affected by his Aura but if he happens to catch you at the ledge with this, it can still kill you. With Down Throw Lucario will levitate you off the ground, then slam you, and surprisingly has more knockback than his up Throw. I am unsure of whether or not this move could kill, but anyway it can lead into Fair, and is not boosted by his Aura. Lucario also has a blazing fast pummel that can quickly refresh his other moves, and if he is at a high percent can help him gain a couple more percents in on you.

Dash Attack: It's bad, it has bad range, bad lag, can be shield-grabbed, not boosted by his Aura, and will not kill, you will not ever have to worry about this ever.

The last thing to cover is his smash attacks. DSmash is a bad move to use for anything besides punishing Spot/roll dodgers, seriously it has bad range and one of his more laggy if not the laggiest of his attack. Usmash is only used to hit enemies out in the air, for example land-camping a Sonic that used his Spring, but otherwise not worth for Lucario to use. FSmash on the other hand has reasonable speed for it's disjointed range, and is safe on block.

Before we cover how to win, you should know that all of Lucario's standard ground attacks will not clank if you try to beat out the Aura part, you need to hit Lucario's body or you will be outprioritized all the time.

How to Win: With all this said, how doe Sonic in particular win such a match? Well first you need to realize your weaknesses, and then the ones that you can exploit.

1. You cannot kill.

2. You are seriously outranged.

3. You cannot edgegaurd Lucario under normal circumstances.

Lucario outpowers you, outranges you, and is basically everything you are but a little bit more on the defensive side and with less mindgames. You must make as many chances for yourself to kill Lucario early as soon as you can as possible and you cannot mess up or things will go horribly wrong. Don't get hit, you can't afford to, and make every hit counts before you go for that early kill. Do not be afraid to slow down the pace and try to pick-up on the opponent's habits/weakpoints, you have to take advantage of everything you can spot. I am not kidding you need to play 90% perfect and maintain that average.

Recommended Stages: Pick stages where you can take advantage of Lucario's ability to get stronger at higher percentages. You want to kill him off soon, so go with stages that have low blastzones. Depending on your region, some of these recommended stages might be banned, but if you can go with Corneria/Green Greens/Brinstar. If all else fails, then go with your best judgment, no other stages that are a sure-fire legal will have such blastzone boundaries that will make Lucario get on his knees and beg for your mercy. Good luck and pray your TO doesn't limit you.

Matchup Summary: most agree that the matchup is 6:4 Lucario's favor, depending on players and maps, it can either go even or as said before make the matchup highly unwinnable for Sonic due to Lucario's unique characteristics. The thing to do is never give up hope, and never let your guard down, or you will be sparring with a brute fighter on steroids. Be smart with your choices, one mistake can turn it into Lucario's favor, but you will find it hard to regain the momentum you lost.

He wants the new matchup to start on a new page. We're going to start Lucario. Bowser talk is still fine though.

Because I'm stupid, that's why I triple posted.

Sonic has the advantage in this match. I really can't see anything that Bowser can do against Sonics throws. His fire breath is underrated and he's got good throws, but even really good Bowser's I've played are easy as Sonic. This is like, the ONLY match where I actually feel safe using the Spin Dash. DThrow and UThrow will combo Bowser a lot. And gimping Bowser once he uses his fortress is easy with Bair. 60:40 Sonic. I'm sorry Bowser fans but I don't see Bowser having any advantage over a defensive Sonic. (Problem is very few Sonic players are defensive, and they SHOULD be!)

60-40 Bowser = ROFLOL! I have nothing against Bowser, but their are so many other power characters that give Sonic trouble. Dedede and Snake come to mind.

One more thing, Spring > Dair, best move against Bowser on a flat stage. Just remember to look out for Bowsers DSmash, it will send you flying and reminds me of Pikachus move.

ugh...

just no

Agreed.

No indeed.

Be sure to perform jab lock in this matchup.

You clearly know nothing of the matchup. Bowser's don't tend to Dsmash, how Sonic does against Snake and d3 has NOTHING to do with Bowser, direct spindashes get ***** by Fire/jabs/fortress and doing a Dthrow will get it tech, have you get grabbed and thoroughly *****.

I would say no triple posting, but then I would be a hypocrite wouldn't I?

Anyway there are too many flaws to your argument, and the only thing you said that makes any sense, is "Sonic players should be playing defensive." That intrigues me... even though neither character is really forced to approach, it seems like Bowser has less options to work with if HE is the one approaching.

...I know I derailed the topic with my idiocy, but can we please get this back on track... you know... to Lucario... please?

I'll start you off.

It's 45:55 Lucario's favor best case scenario, Lucario has a bit of range to his attacks thanks to his Aura, and we all know how much trouble has killing, but now this weakness becomes even more highlighted with the fact that the longer Lucario lives, the stronger he gets.

Aura Sphere is slow and easily punished, but don't jump into the ****, it hurts, especially when done right.

Extreme Speed is the same thing as Spring... it will only be used as a last resort. Lucario is floaty enough where he might only need to Freefall back onto the stage, second j ump in necessary, and Extreme Speed if he got hit back a little bit.

Good Lucarios never will use their counter, don't tell me otherwise.

Don't get grabbed, and it's somewhat easy since Lucario's grab range on his front if poor... however the reason why I said don't get grabbed is because his throws are powerful (and actually kill with %age)/can be followed up with more strings of attacks.

More later perhaps.

GET TO IT!

Lolz despite being most successful sonic + lucario main in this country, my experience in the matchup is extremely limited. Lucario can camp with bair really well and its nigh impossible to grab an evasive lucario if they only stick to using safe moves.

I could see it getting as bad as 35:65 on certain stages (yoshis comes to mind) if lucario plays as gay as possible but any stage with silly geography (like frigate, green greens ) coudl bring to much closer to 45:55 or something

I apologize for necroing the Bowser topic, but:

Tenki said:

[3] So please take and complete this situation:
- Sonic uses a side-B hop on Bowser (meaning he's either in or just outside of Bowser's jab range) and makes contact with shield.

Bowser uses... ??

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MrEh said:

[1] During the startup frames of the attack, the Fortress pretty much beats everything because of the invincibility frames. After those frames are gone though, tilts and Bairs should clank with the hitbox. After the hitbox disapears, tilts and Bairs beat it, since he's pretty much a spinning hurtbox by that point. ^^



[2] Bowser's side B is stupidlty disjointed. It will beat out all of Sonic's aerials except for a perfectly spaced Bair. Since it's a grab, it takes priority over almost everything that isn't more disjointed then itself. ^^

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[1] Well, I'll leave that one to you. I merely threw out the Sonic iSDR example because he's invincible for the whole roll, but since it's a grounded move without transcendent priority, other grounded moves can clang with it and stop him.

[2] Random Q: It doesn't grab under Bowser, does it?
No.. implications meant or anything.

:3

[3] (on Sonic's side-B vs Bowser's shield) - The reason I threw out the side-B hop 'approach' was that Sonic can double jump, spring, or other movement straight out of the side-B upon contact, or even before it. It's one of the "safest" close range "approaches" Sonic has, only hindered by the Sonic player's own reaction/prediction ability.

- Sonic doesn't have any safe approaches, Bowser can straight jab or F Tilt against any except for perhaps SH U Air or perfectly spaced B Air. Bowser's will Side B through any attempts at running grab or shield. This means Sonic must rely on fakeouts, which isn't the strongest stance.

Click to expand...

Blister.

Don't worry about apologizing Tenki, I just wanted to get the main focus as Lucario, but anything we might've left behind for teh Boozer is still up.

But besides that, can you share some of your 2cents for the Chocolate? :3

Not really.

I haven't played any good Lucario offline, and it usually goes down to me abusing stupid usage of D-air or something like that.

The best Lucarios I've played were online, but I really want to see how the game would really play when I can actually shield things.


Oh yeah, before someone else says it,

- Lucario's everything will outprioritize spindash.
- Don't rely on OMNOMNOM frames.
- DI away unless you're dying.
- Watch out for jab(>jab)>grab/side-B stuff at low %'s.

Also, Side-B Hop is safe on shield.

Tenki said:

Not really.

I haven't played any good Lucario offline, and it usually goes down to me abusing stupid usage of D-air or something like that.

The best Lucarios I've played were online, but I really want to see how the game would really play when I can actually shield things.


Oh yeah, before someone else says it,

- Lucario's everything will outprioritize spindash.
- Don't rely on OMNOMNOM frames.
- DI away unless you're dying.
- Watch out for jab(>jab)>grab/side-B stuff at low %'s.

Also, Side-B Hop is safe on shield.

Click to expand...

Thank you for not saying AA ->FP/grab only, that's some old business, most characters can DI out, A -> grab/FP's the new thing unless they don't DI!
So, what's up with lucario?

He's our main focus.

I also want to discuss the silly claim that Chocolate > Steak.

well i know that i am not that good of a sonic user (still trying though) but i have faced 2 really good lucy mains in my opinion *dont quote me though cause i dont know what the lucy mains think of them*

Tactical *i fight regularly*
and
Bloodhawk *i met him at one tourney i went to*

soooo yeah just a thought i would have to say 60:40 lucy

just cause of his increased range and knock back once he gets to higher percents and he can chain grab with fb but only like twice against sonic, not sure how everyone else fairs with it though :/

but yeah there is my 2 cents and i will get tac to come in if you all want me to?

This thread is amazing. Now over 291 pages!