Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Kinzer]

We have a Spring. It may not be like Martha's Up-B, but it's pretty d*** good on it's own.

Delfino Plaza is neutral with Sonic BTW.

 

[ShadowLink84]

at least im not the only one saying this now.

He is calling me for trolling.
You're just an idiot period.
Big difference.


Anyways its the same issue as we discussed earlier (I think we discussed Lucario earlier,).

The main issue with Lucario is the fact that he has a better aerial game, better range and priority.
he also has safer methods of spacing than Sonic.

I won't go over anything thats already been covered before.
Sonic should not drift in mid-range, its bad for him and he should aim to pressure Lucario once he has managed to approach.
Off stage, it is difficult to gimp Lucario due to his quick attacks and good range. his ^B isn't very good and I guess you could use a Nair or bair to harass him, but that won't happen often due to his floaty nature.

Its definitely 60-40. Lucario's superior aerial and ground capabilities make Sonic's capability to punish less of an issue. He can hinder and pressure indirectly which is something Sonic doesn't handle too well IMO.

 

[Kinzer]

But... but... Sawnik has teh Bair/Uair to at least trade hits with any of Lucarios attacks. D:

QQ quit trolling. <3

But seriously now, aren't Lucario and Sonic at least neutral in the air? Aura ia nice and all, but I would think Lucario for this fight would rather stay low.

By low, I mean nothing but sort hops and all that jazz, because getting high will easily telegraph either empty jumps or Dairs... right?

I dunno, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Browny]

Most sonics I play get comprehensively destroyed by my lucario, while some manage to do well against or even beat me. interestingly enough its the average players that do well who dont focus on spinshots, grab combos, spring gimps etc, but only focus on the basics (many dont even main sonic).

but maybe thats just a weird (ie; ********) coincidence with the people i play against lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

No its something that should be done. You mus work on basics before you go on to advanced stuff.

Anyways trading hits is bad, you want to be as safe as possible. Overall Luccy does beat Sonic because he has faster and better ranged aerials.

 

[Kinzer]

I think he's suggesting that the more simplistic Sonics have a better chance at beating Lucario.

I couldn't agree more.

But as for trading hits, I see it as a "meh" thing, because IDC if I get hit, so long as my opponent gets some damage on them, it's more efficient to me than doing nothing at all. Of course Lucario beats Sonic silly, what we want to find out is how to make it less of a **** matchup.

As for Lucario having faster aerials, see: Bair/Uair.

So I herd ya also have landing lag on some of Lukawio's aewials, am i doin' it rite?

 

[Browny]

dair has 0 landing lag and it doesnt auto cancel, it has 0 because you cant land and dair at the same time unless you dair over a rising platform, still has almost nothing then. nair has very little and most lucarios wont even land while doing a fair or uair anyway. Bair has landing lag but due to the massive lingering hitbox of that attack its extremely difficult to punish it.

lucarios bair camping is really good, people dont abuse it enough >_>

 

[phi1ny3]

dair has 0 landing lag and it doesnt auto cancel, it has 0 because you cant land and dair at the same time unless you dair over a rising platform, still has almost nothing then. nair has very little and most lucarios wont even land while doing a fair or uair anyway. Bair has landing lag but due to the massive lingering hitbox of that attack its extremely difficult to punish it.

lucarios bair camping is really good, people dont abuse it enough >_>

Bair is usually used for either edgeguarding and camping, but usually don't rely on it unless they're against a vastly superior air game (like Peach's). And DJBrowny's right, only ones with any significant landing lag are uair and fair, though they are hardly used near landing anyways.

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr, I'm not doin' it rite.

Fair enough I guess... does anybody have any ideas on what else could be discussed... we go by discussions so fast that I can't keep up, and it's almost boring when it slows down... -_-

 

[Browny]

all the lucario mains are hiding in thier IRC, they rarely come to SWF anymore lol. I doubt even me being there since the very start would be enough to convince them to come here :<

 

[phi1ny3]

rawr, I'm Not Doin' It Rite.

Fair Enough I Guess... Does Anybody Have Any Ideas On What Else Could Be Discussed... We Go By Discussions So Fast That I Can't Keep Up, And It's Almost Boring When It Slows Down... -_-

YOU'RE TOO SLOW!
lol jk

I'm one of the few who's still patient enough to pull lucario SWF boards up, and I'm really pulling for our recent wave of noobs to go to tourneys to get a feel for lucario, because the posts they have in our boards only makes other veteran lucario contributors shy away from the boards.
tl;dr: We've practically died in SWF.

 

[Vionce]

Rawr, I'm not doin' it rite.

Fair enough I guess... does anybody have any ideas on what else could be discussed... we go by discussions so fast that I can't keep up, and it's almost boring when it slows down... -_-

How about countering BAS? A luc might spam BAS then fsmash or bair when sonic gets close.

 

[Kinzer]

Well that's simple.

Spinshot moar.



BTW DJ what IRC, linkx pl0x?

 

[thecatinthehat]

Spinshot moar.

I love you.

What are char are we discussing?

lol I'm always so lost in this thread.

 

[Kinzer]

Lucario, but I fear we are closing shop (again, and fast -_-) and i'm running out of ideas, and I feel there must be something I'm missing.

 

[phi1ny3]

How about countering BAS? A luc might spam BAS then fsmash or bair when sonic gets close.

Actually, lucarios have agreed that BAS is not as good as it used to be, anything you could've done with a BAS was wasted getting a AS fully charged. We only now use it for the occasional disrupting.

How about offstage options for both? How does that work out, considering Sonic is pretty tricky to gimp with that confounded spring of his?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Well that's simple.

Spinshot moar.

GD...

kids need to power walk more.

power walking is the new term im coining for walking and power shielding.

 

[Kinzer]

You ain't gimping Sonic unless you happen to grab him out of his Spring, and good Sonic's won't put themselves in that situation where they have no choice but to recover from that low. We pretty much just use Down-B to kill momentum, freefall back towards the stage, and then work from there.

I heard Lucario is the same thing, minus the spin attacks and the projectile that goes straight down.

Edit: KID, that's dangerous, you don't know if the Lucario can release the AS then or keep charging it, at least with Spinshot all they can do is drop the charging process, but if they don't do that then they are vulnerable.

 

[thecatinthehat]

GD...

kids need to power walk more.

power walking is the new term im coining for walking and power shielding.

moving through the air at about 100 mph vs. walking with your arms covering your face.

yeah...

I think I prefer spinshot lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

You ain't gimping Sonic unless you happen to grab him out of his Spring, and good Sonic's won't put themselves in that situation where they have no choice but to recover from that low. We pretty much just use Down-B to kill momentum, freefall back towards the stage, and then work from there.

I heard Lucario is the same thing, minus the spin attacks and the projectile that goes straight down.

Edit: KID, that's dangerous, you don't know if the Lucario can release the AS then or keep charging it, at least with Spinshot all they can do is drop the charging process, but if they don't do that then they are vulnerable.

More or less, lots of mindgames with dair to make it harder for the opponent to get proper spacing, and BAS/AS/fair/uair for driving away edgeguarders/edgehoggers. Oh yeah, and wall-cling.
And the occasional RDT (not going to see that in a good lucario's edgegame though, lol).

 

[Browny]

kinzer i wouldnt really suggest going to the lucario irc, they REALLY dont like sonic in there and wont be of any help. hence that silly pic with lucario + sonic high five'ing, it annoys them

 

[Kinzer]

moving through the air at about 100 mph vs. walking with your arms covering your face.

yeah...

I think I prefer spinshot lol.

this.

More or less, lots of mindgames with dair to make it harder for the opponent to get proper spacing, and BAS/AS/fair/uair for driving away edgeguarders/edgehoggers. Oh yeah, and wall-cling.
And the occasional RDT (not going to see that in a good lucario's edgegame though, lol).

And I completely forgot this, about Lucario's offstage shenanigans and all that jazz. I didn't even think about the silly Dair momentum stopper-thingy, it has the same effect as Martha's first strike DB... except you know... it doesn't make Lucario plummet even faster after the first one.

Edit: DJ, I didn't say I was going to become a part of it, I just wanted to link to look at it and be on my way right after.

 

[thecatinthehat]

****it DJ, stop posting lol.

Lucario boards are conceited.

They think they're better than everyone else.

No.

 

[Kinzer]

Way to not keep your opinion to yourself even after they could've left, Cat... :/

 

[thecatinthehat]

It's called, being "open minded"

 

[Joshkip]

****it Dj, Stop Posting Lol.

Lucario Boards Are Conceited.

They Think They're Better Than Everyone Else.

No.

Lllllllloooooooolllllllllll!!!!!

 

[thecatinthehat]

Lllllllloooooooolllllllllll!!!!!

I'm just wondering, why did you capitalize all of word in my post when you quoted me?

 

[da K.I.D.]

cus ur dumb.


spinshot has mostly set spacing, it might not always be the best option.

 

[thecatinthehat]

this is true.

I admit, I exaggerate when I say "spinshot moar".

Still, it's extremely underused.

 

[Browny]

lucario can just fair/bair a spinshot, like i said before trying all fancy tricks etc doesnt really work vs lucario.

I still think this is a solid 40:60 which could get as bad as 35:65 depending on stages, only based on my lucario v others peoples Sonics experience, not so much when im playing as sonic

also i win cith

 

[thecatinthehat]

****it.

By one post too.

I was SSOOOO close.

SPinshot > srping moar against lucario.

 

[Joshkip]

I'm just wondering, why did you capitalize all of word in my post when you quoted me?

i dont know was i not supposed to?

 

[thecatinthehat]

i dont know was i not supposed to?

you dont have to lol.

 

[Kinzer]

Lucario suffers lag from releasing the AS... but then again as I've said this before they might not always release it.

Still much better than trying to guess what your opponent will do by just running up to them with a shield.

 

[tedward2000]

Thanks Phil for saying your the only cario still around. >>
Also, there's some AS charging shenanigans to be warry of.

Sonic: Oh look he's charging his Aura Sphere. He's helpless, Free attack Woot!

Wrong. For one, lucario can just throw the AS. (Which you can shield and punish) Or... He can grab you. Right out of charging, no strings attached. That or shield outta charging then do swag.

And everyone knows cario has craptastic grab range. He's grab Horizontally challenged.
Vertical is a different story.
Lucario can pluck ppl out of his Up-tilt easily at a low %. The same can be said for Force Palm Grab, which has even more vertical grab range then his grab, at least twice fold. He's practically grabbing you with his ears.
Up-tilt x2 to grab is very possible, and more so at a low %.

The lower Cario's % is, the more chains he's able to do. And vice versa, the higher his % the less amount of chains he can do, because of knockback of stronger attacks.
XD
-t2

*edit
I'm a wee tired mixed a few things up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you definitely got horizontal and verticle mixed up there.

 

[infomon]

I'm just wondering, why did you capitalize all of word in my post when you quoted me?

I think this is a bug in SWF's (fairly) recent changes to its anti-capslock filtering. I've seen this happen unintentionally in a number of places. It's dumb.

 

[phi1ny3]

Thanks Phil for saying your the only cario still around. >>
Also, there's some AS charging shenanigans to be warry of.

Sonic: Oh look he's charging his Aura Sphere. He's helpless, Free attack Woot!

Wrong. For one, lucario can just throw the AS. (Which you can shield and punish) Or... He can grab you. Right out of charging, no strings attached. That or shield outta charging then do swag.

And everyone knows cario has craptastic grab range. He's grab Horizontally challenged.
Vertical is a different story.
Lucario can pluck ppl out of his Up-tilt easily at a low %. The same can be said for Force Palm Grab, which has even more vertical grab range then his grab, at least twice fold. He's practically grabbing you with his ears.
Up-tilt x2 to grab is very possible, and more so at a low %.

The lower Cario's % is, the more chains he's able to do. And vice versa, the higher his % the less amount of chains he can do, because of knockback of stronger attacks.
XD
-t2

*edit
I'm a wee tired mixed a few things up.

Lol, I said one of the few, not only me, you and Milln have stayed pretty well on top of things, as well as Timbers (though he does go on and off). Do we know for sure if Sam is being serious by saying he's leaving "I'm leaving the boards"?

 

[Browny]

Lol im still there for the lucario boards too maybe if Kita wasnt so dead set lazy with the matchup thread id be there more...

 

[phi1ny3]

Lol im still there for the lucario boards too maybe if Kita wasnt so dead set lazy with the matchup thread id be there more...

No kidding. We need someone else to look after that if he doesn't improve by the next discussion.