Eddie G
Smash Hero
When will it end? D:
-
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Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship
- Thread starter EdreesesPieces
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i came into this thread to hopefully read some knowledgable thoughts about the correlation between the skill of a player and the capacity of a character.
and now I come in here to see yuna making useless arguments about ish that doesnt matter and has no pertination to the subject at hand.
also, just because (you may think) somebody is wrong, it does not give you the right to bash them. Its doesnt matter what you feel about it, its never ok to belittle someone
and now I come in here to see yuna making useless arguments about ish that doesnt matter and has no pertination to the subject at hand.
also, just because (you may think) somebody is wrong, it does not give you the right to bash them. Its doesnt matter what you feel about it, its never ok to belittle someone
There was very little to say on the subject. I argued it was total baloney. No one could refute me (no one even tried to). The discussion moved on to related subjects.
Quotes or it didn't happen.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
really?
i dont even have to leave the thread for this.
hell, i didnt even have to leave the page.
everyone deserves human decency, and nobody deserves to be belittled or spoken to in a condescending manner.
Actually, humanity has proven multiple times to rarely be deserving of any more than being referred to by name.
If board discussions followed that rule, you'd have to close every thread.
We typically give everyone the benefit of the doubt and hope we didn't hand out more than was deserved.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
If someone constantly insists on 1+1=10 inspite of every single conceivable argument stating otherwise, I highly doubt you should consider respecting their opinion on the subject.
It may just mean they're in base 2, which is why discussing things for clarity is important.
Hive
Smash Lord
deleted- pm'd instead...
Eddie G
Smash Hero
What is with these silly and irrelevant examples that people love to bring up?
First off, 1+ 1 = 2 is something that is absolute, and universally known as fact. If someone were to insist on 1 + 1= 10 being fact, then I can understand why you would not respect their opinion on the subject, because it is and will always be wrong. This mathematical fact is not debatable in that 1 + 1 does indeed = 2.
However, this topic and many other topics related to this game or on this site are not absolute, and are debatable. Opinions that are presented within a debatable topic should at least be respected in the form of acknowledgment, if nothing else (taking into mind that one's opinions are not totally bias and do not disregard others' opinions). This is because in such a topic, there is no absolute truth that has yet been established; There will always be more questions and opinions rising due to uncertainty, and rightfully so.
The two are not comparable. 1+1 DOES = 2
Edrees' list, Peach placement, most Smash/Brawl knowledge still = ???
I guess you're going to not respect this, but...1 + 1 = 10 if you're in base 2, it's just a question of ensuring that your system of representation has been properly defined so that you can have a conversation. Remarkably similar to the question of this graph, really. I do understand what the analogy was trying to get at, but it's managed to prove something entirely different.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
1+1= 7
base 2 that
yuna says stuff, meh
base 2 that
yuna says stuff, meh
No, that was the thing. 1 + 1 can be 2 or it can be 10. If he'd picked any other number the analogy would have worked fine for what he was saying.
He just picked the only other legal value it could be, given common number systems (And binary is a very common system for certain fields).
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Of course, nothing is ever really that simple is it? 
ExCeL 52
Smash Lord
Jesus could come down from the Heavens above and tell Yuna he is wrong, and he still would argue.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
yeah, im aware, that's why i changed it to 1+1=7
jesus vs yuna is actually part of the next marvel vs capcom game
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
fixed for analogy accuracy
Based on what you told me before, i just beat yuna in a debate because he left the thread and didnt come back. lol.
if they want to believe that, thats on them. If they insist on continuing to believe that, than i wont bother talking to you. Im not going to stand there and continuously argue and belittle someone for it, thats a waste of my time. Ill just let them believe what they want and move on. its much simpler that way
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wrong, this IS fact. This is NOT opinion.
Peach being better than high tier characters is NOT fact. Frame data, hitbox data, matchup data, gameplay are all factual.
What is it that makes Peach a character that does better than high tier characters?
Nothing!
This isn't as if it requies an interpretation of data that may differ from person to person.
This is just like 1+1=2
It is a fact that Marth outranges her.
It is fact that Marth has more kill power.
It is a fact that Marth is faster.
It is a fact that his matchups are better.
It is a fact that his potential is greater than hers period.
So it is comparable.
Why should we listen to people who would constantly insist on something that is flat out not true.
Except he is wrong.
The FACTS all point to him being wrong.
If you are talking about his argument itself, that is not what I am discussing.
I assumed base ten meh
I cannot see how you got such a notion unless you forgot everything else I talked about.
Then we should allow people to believe that the Earth is flat, Kings rule because of divine right, and a leceherous man who shoots lightning sits on a mountai with other beings who are leceherous and all powerful. (except Athena, she was a virgin I think)
That is taking a different approach Kid. Some people argue, some people ignore.
I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Everyone does acknowledge that M2K is the best player in the world, but that doesn't really take away from the fact that GOOD MKs generally do place high and he is the undisputed money ranch. The top spots are always taken away by those gifted players most of the time, but it seems that depending on the character said player uses, our reaction differs. If said player used a B-, we qualify it as a fluke, as not representative, "the player is viable competitively, not the character", whereas if they place high with top tiers, they simply add to an already existing trend. That indicates that most take the current tier list as empirical truth, which it is not.
When most players who p2w agglomerate around B+ characters, an uneven representation of the whole cast at high level is inherent. Hence why I, too, would rather draw conclusions from existing data over a considerably long period of time. But what happens when we lack samples? Why is MK not taking all the top spots you ask? Why is it that Falco is seemingly nowhere to be seen (in the money) in most recent tournaments, even though he is ranked as the 3rd best character in the game? You cannot assume that all the MK players present at a tournament are equally as skilled. And it seems like we are lacking Falco players who are able to display of such domination (unless his placement was mostly based upon advantageous match-up ratios).
If you're following my train of thought, you can see where I'm going with this. If Azen and Lee alone cannot be taken as examples so as to show that Lucario is indeed a viable high end character, but yet no other Lucario player worth mentioning can be found across the states (I know there are a few more), we find ourselves stalling at a dead end... until the next prodigy. You see Anther winning tourneys left and right, or simply placing surprisingly high and that coupled with Pikachu being C+ might lead one to think that he is a viable tournament character, but he could be just as easily dumped into the "viable player" category as there are no current trends displaying of an upsurge in Pika rankings (at least, I do not know of any notable Pika players besides him).
So where do we draw the line? How can you be certain which character can indeed make it on its own? Our current match-up knowledge? Most high ranked player do not even bother adding their inputs in character specific discussions which just adds to the general incoherence/bias/spreading of erroneous information (and then you have Atomsk/Inui/M2K claiming that Olimar goes even with MK and people go haywire). The tier list? Not even; SBR members are just as biased as anyone else. Most of these people and the scene in which they play in does not give them the exposure to the entirety of the cast played at its highest potential to be able to discern effectively which character belongs where. It is hence obvious that because of a lack of representation the farther down you go through the list, the less accurate it gets. And the farther down you go, the less likely you are to find said character in a tournament, which does not help. Yet, experience remains the only tool we can rely on. (That would explain why Jesiah ranked Olimar as the third best character in the game, tied with Falco; people's experience differ)
So now, that brings us back to Peach. Do you know anything about her match-ups thoroughly? Is her metagame currently totally fleshed out? Is there anyone that plays her at her topmost potential? You might point at Edreese, which I would expect, but you'd then have to ask yourself how good as a player he is compared to other big names (NL, etc). What if she moves in C tier? Can you assure me that she won't? If so, based on what? The Peach community can't even agree on most matchups. Some claim that her only disadvantageous matchups (60:40) are against MK, Marth and GW (all 60:40), which is FAR from unwinnable, and yet these consensus and Sky's opinion differ greatly. You have Excel Zero a bit further down geographically who walks off with every tournament pot, but the level of his competition would then be in question...
Point being that nothing appears to be set in stone, even one year after Brawl's release. And thus, until Factual evidence is brought on the table, everyone is eating each other's baloney. I would myself much rather be delusional for the time being, then be a tool's wrench.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
@bento: One can say that as of CURRENTLY there is no evidence for Peach being as high as Edreeses placed her. Would that be more satisfactory?
That's the thing though. If you can't take a single sample as evidence that a character has the potential to place high, how is the opposite case relevant? How many Peach players actually attend tourneys? Where are the trends?
And people are pushing forth opinions as empirical truth. "he/she will NEVER win alone". How can someone be so sure?
And people are pushing forth opinions as empirical truth. "he/she will NEVER win alone". How can someone be so sure?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The thing is that for some characters, regardless of how much potential they may have, or un-represented they are, they simply do not have such capability as those above them.
Look at Sonic and Ike and Bowser, even though those characters are not very cmomon compared to others coughhackmetaknightthe***coughhackcough. They simply are not as good as the other characters by a large margin.
This is the case with Peach, yes she has potential, but that potential, in comparison to others, is more limited. Meanwhile a character like MK has tons of potential.
Now it can be said that maybe her potential isn't realized because she is hard to learn. I mean look at Fox, he ***** when play to the max, but what we saw in Fox is entirely different from what we see in Peach. Yes she has potential, but not so much as Fox did in melee.
Now as for basing things of a single sample, I am in agreement with you. I cannot really discuss it though since I base mine off everything (since i am a loser)
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Are you not paying attention to what it is I am addressing? Please quote me on where I ever said Peach is better than high tier characters, but you won't find that claim anywhere in any of my posts because that is not the point that I am addressing.
I'm not focused on what his argument was based on, but rather your silly comparison of absolute, factual, and universal data, being 1+1=2, to a shaky topic. The shaky topic, in this case, is the unknown future when it comes to Peach placing higher or winning tournaments, despite several characters clearly being better than she is overall; Do you mean to tell me that you can predict future tournament results as well? Do you not see the uncertainty of this topic for yourself?
This is what I mean by topics such as these being debatable, and opinions toward these topics being acknowledgable as long as they are not composed solely of bias or "garbage", and absolute facts such as 1+1=2 not being debatable.
My statement stands, the two are not comparable, don't make irrelevant comparisons in debates revolving around uncertainty.
Bento.
D tier will never be able to do it alone.
F tier will never be able to do it alone.
and so on and so on.
=/ Brawl just wasn't made like Guilty gear.
Saying a specific character can't make it alone is a bit more... risk taking and opinionated, and is usually backed with facts as well as experience, for there is no concrete Tier list, (Though I don't think it's going to drastically change in June).
But the Tiers are set there for a reason, and there's a big disconnect from D to C. D can't make it alone, and that's why they are there. They are not tournament viable if going Solo.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
^This. Right. Here.
Now I know it is the wisest choice for a Peach main to pick up other characters to help against un-winnable or seemingly un-winnable "circumstances" (matchups/stage choice/opponent's skill level/etc.), but to say that she can never win alone? I agree Bento, chances are extremely high that she can not and will not win alone, but "never" is still too strong of a term, even for some circumstances that make matches near impossible for her to pull through.
Bash:
1. to strike with a crushing or smashing blow.
2. Chiefly British, Canadian. to hurl harsh verbal abuse at.
–noun
3. a crushing blow.
4. Informal. a thoroughly enjoyable, lively party.
—Idioms
5. have a bash (at), British. to attempt; make an attempt.
6. on the bash, British. working as a prostitute.
Condescending:
1. showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors' condescending cordiality.
2. To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.
Belittle:
To represent or speak of as contemptibly small or unimportant; disparage: a person who belittled our efforts to do the job right.
Being condescending is not necessarily the same as bashing people or belittling them. While I am often condescending, I almost never ever belittle or bash them, as that would be against the rules.
The English language: 29091
da K.I.D.: 0
Also, no, not really.
@Sky: If you had read my post, you would've figured that I do not see tier lists as accurate representations of Brawl's metagame at its utmost developed state (i.e. not now). What will happen if Peach moves to C in the next revision? Will you be singing a new song then? It already takes so little to sway people's opinions on match-ups and everyone just clings onto whatever big name will say, but these remain opinions and its (T.L.) current form is far from final.
The tiers are not set. The SBR asked their members to rank characters from 1 to 15. They compiled the results and came up with the T.L. How can anyone so blindly accept this is as empirical truth and believe that whatever conclusion drawn from it now shall remain right for all eternity...
You bringing up the experience element is exactly what I'm talking about. You go ask people in Puerto Rico how they feel about Peach (high). Now go ask the japanese (bottom iirc). You have Atomsk and Inui claiming that with perfect camping, Olimar is clearly top tier and next thing you know Jesiah votes Oli as the 3rd best character.
A SUM OF OPINIONS, THAT'S ALL IT IS.
The tiers are not set. The SBR asked their members to rank characters from 1 to 15. They compiled the results and came up with the T.L. How can anyone so blindly accept this is as empirical truth and believe that whatever conclusion drawn from it now shall remain right for all eternity...
You bringing up the experience element is exactly what I'm talking about. You go ask people in Puerto Rico how they feel about Peach (high). Now go ask the japanese (bottom iirc). You have Atomsk and Inui claiming that with perfect camping, Olimar is clearly top tier and next thing you know Jesiah votes Oli as the 3rd best character.
A SUM OF OPINIONS, THAT'S ALL IT IS.
Your just upset because I was right all along and you weren't (I've said that Peach is unviable since day one. You've insisted otherwise since day 1, I think).
Also, why should I take Jesus' word for it? What if Jesus is lying? What if he is testing me? If he comes down to debate me, he better have valid proof. As I've said before, it is irrelevant to me who is debating, it is what they say that is important.
Arguable:
1. susceptible to debate, challenge, or doubt; questionable: Whether this is the best plan of action or not is arguable.
2. susceptible to being supported by convincing or persuasive argument: Admirers agree that it is arguable he is the finest pianist of his generation.
You don't get it. If one or a very select few players do well with a B- character, we will qualify it as a fluke unless more people are able to replicate the results and/or the theoretical metagame changes (as in techniques, strategies, combos, etc. are discovered for the B- characters to change our perceptions of them).
Because if it's just a select few, then it's not a trend. Meanwhile, the SS, S and A tiers have several players each doing very well across the board. How many Lucarios in total come in close to placing? Not many.
The current tier list represents what we knew about the metagame at the time of its creation. The True Tier List does not change. It is eternal and constant. Our perception of the metagame changes, thus the Tier List we create is subject to change at all times.
If tomorrow someone discovered things that made Zelda SSS-tier SSS-tier and nothing was discovered to counteract it, then she would move up to eventually. This is why I always qualify my claims with "... according to what we know at this writing moment."
If you think a character is viable, present proof. I do not assume characters are viable until proven otherwise, I assume the opposite.
Isolated incidents/players =/= Trend, irrefutable proof.
Based on what we know at this writing moment. Of course, everything is possible, but assuming the players involved are playing the game at one of the highest (human) levels of play at major tournaments and are of roughly equal skill level, based on what we know at this writing moment, X-character has the odds severely against them that it would require quite the fluke for them to win.
It's because:
1) I'm about to drop Zelda as a main.
2) I don't hang out on any character specific boards.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i beg to differ.
you patronising somebody is some thing you dont perceive as verbal abuse.
The same way I dont think calling you a girl is verbal abuse.
Its dependant on how the person being spoken to takes the comment. Not how the speaker wants their words to be heard.
However in both of these cases, the person being spoken to interprets the statement as being verbal abuse, so it is. and thus in this case being condescending is the same as bashing them
also if you deal with people as if you are superior to them, than that is the same as saying that they are unimportant, thus, in this case as well, patronising does in fact = belittlement.
I think the english language is on my side on this one homeboy.
"Having a condescending tone/attitude towards someone" =/= Verbal abuse.
Do you know what being condescending means?
No it's not.
There are ways to determine whether or not someone is actually bashing someone.
No, it really isn't.
No.
No, it does not. Because belittling them means to openly tell them they are unimportant. Also, just because I'm treating them as if I were superior to them (not a requirement for being condescending, BTW) doesn't mean that I'm telling them they are unimportant... it's just that they're less important than I am.
No. It is not. No matter how much you twist it.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
It can, the same way me calling you a girl can = abuse.
p.s. theres very little tone on the intarwbz, so you have to assume the tone the person is using, which is why abuse is dependant on the hearer as opposed to the speaker.
lol you just gave me a dictionary explaination, and i used it to refute you. yes i know what it means.
add proof and subtract the subjection here and you might have an arguement.
one of those being tone, which is only vaguely recognisable on the web.
+proof and -subjection pls.
see above
thats not what the DICTIONARY DEFINITION you gave me said.
actually, acting patronising toward someone IS a requirement to be condescending.
you are saying that they are unimportant in relation to YOU. which is effectively the same thing.
you seem to be the one twisting words here, im still basing my words on the dictionary definitions you gave me
He wins everything, period. Could it change? Sure, but right now, he IS the best player in the world.
See what I did there?
Everything is arguable.
...That's a reality I did bring up when mentioning Azen/Anther in my 3rd paragraph. There are a LOT more SS/A players than B-, so what if another good Lucario never shows up? Will he be considered unviable forever? I'm more interested in gauging what he is theoretically capable of doing based on these scarce results than to brush off a character because of lack of representation. If you're swayed away by the current "truth", how do you suppose our metagame will ever evolve? What drive is there for players to pick up these low/mid tiers and flesh em out like Boss did? There's simply none. DIY. DIY. DIY.
And what I'm saying is that until that True Tier list is fleshed out, I really couldn't careless about the perceptions of a select few.
Funny. I'm being told right now that a certain few are not viable. Logic suggests that if I want to win, I should quit said characters and pick up MK.
Studying trends is just a facet to cover up our ignorance. You could compile all of MKs matchups and compare them with the rest of the cast and easily conclude that he is the best character in the game... Falco is 3rd for the very same reason.
Drawing conclusions from the little we know due to a lack of valid samples does not strike me as accurate, or anywhere near the truth. To each his own.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
so...
bento is amazing.
any questions?
bento is amazing.
any questions?
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
I have a question. Why the **** is it necessary to debate semantics, unless of course the person you are debating is drawing you into a useless debate for the sole purpose of trolling you, in which case, you ought to be intelligent enough to realize the debate you are engaging in is not fruitful in any way, shape or form?
Also, since when was winning a Pyrrhic battle worth it? I sort of thought by definition (lol GET IT) it was the opposite...
Also, since when was winning a Pyrrhic battle worth it? I sort of thought by definition (lol GET IT) it was the opposite...
Learn to speak English better.
If you cannot see the difference between me having condescending tone and you directly calling me a girl, then I have nothing more to say to you on this matter.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
So, who thinks that making a graphical realtionship of character potential based on player skill is possible? It seems like a good idea, even if the graph is currently unrealistic.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I appreciate and accept your apology and conceding of this matter.
I should find a quote from this arguement for my yuna got ***** in this debate sig.
good day sir.