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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Popertop

Popertop

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Look at Lee Martin, he's a better idea of what a Lucario does.

And don't trust the Lucario boards, people try to give them advice, and they respond that it is silly advice.
 
Alus

Alus

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Popertop said:
Look at Lee Martin, he's a better idea of what a Lucario does.

And don't trust the Lucario boards, people try to give them advice, and they respond that it is silly advice.
Click to expand...
Isn't that the other way around?
 
ViceGrip

ViceGrip

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Oops, i was going to elaborate on the mario/ness or marth/ness matchup a few pages back lol. i post here and sometimes forget that i posted and thus forget to come back and check. whoops, are we on lucario now officially?
 
Shaky

Shaky

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We already spent too much time on Diddy, we need to do other characters.
 
AvariceX

AvariceX

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I know I haven't exactly been active in this thread, but once all the matchups are done can the first one that gets revised be ZSS? She's listed as a slight advantage but my buddy's ZSS has led me to believe it's an impossible matchup for Ness...3-stocks my Ness every time we play...then I 2 stock him with Captain Falcon who I don't even actually use. I know this isn't even close to proving an advantage/disadvantage, I just believe there's a good chance the info on that matchup is out-dated or incomplete.

Also there are two really good Lucarios in my area (Wolfblade and Chaotic), and I go almost even with both of them; the matchup is even imo. Ness actually has an easier time in this matchup playing defensively and trying to force Lucario to approach. The only two things that actually make the matchup difficult are Lucario's dair which beats our nair, uair, and bair; eliminating several kill options; and the fact that you can't safely air-dodge through a lot of Lucario's attacks.
 
AdmantNESS

AdmantNESS

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Well, this is what a ZSS main said during the discussion listed here (And look at the 2nd Opening post of the topic for a link to all of the links of the discussions):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5478943#post5478943

And this is the link to the ZSS discussion:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5380955#post5380955


And after I faced some good Lucarios on Lag-fi(I know Ness sucks on Wifi) I agree with Avarice, Lucario can eliminate several of Ness's kill options. And its really not a good idea to be above him when at high dmg. That Up-air just destroyed me.

Lucario can combo with his aerials if you don't Di out in time, and if you get caught by a jab-cancelled focus punch grab, you WILL take much damage if you don't break out as soon as possible.

Also when Ness gets to high damage, please try not to get hit by any one of Lucario's Smashes,especially if Lucario is at high dmg. Which goes without saying of course. Those smashes really has range.

Though Ness's bat is a reflector, high dmg Aura Spheres are fast and you would have to bring out the Magnet/bat in advance so its not safe to use either unless you really feel confident/bold or its really obvious.

As for playing defensively, that would be a good idea.
 
_clinton

_clinton

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AvariceX said:
I know I haven't exactly been active in this thread, but once all the matchups are done can the first one that gets revised be ZSS? She's listed as a slight advantage but my buddy's ZSS has led me to believe it's an impossible matchup for Ness...3-stocks my Ness every time we play...then I 2 stock him with Captain Falcon who I don't even actually use. I know this isn't even close to proving an advantage/disadvantage, I just believe there's a good chance the info on that matchup is out-dated or incomplete.
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Could I play your buddy's Zamus?

AvariceX said:
Also there are two really good Lucarios in my area (Wolfblade and Chaotic), and I go almost even with both of them; the matchup is even imo. Ness actually has an easier time in this matchup playing defensively and trying to force Lucario to approach. The only two things that actually make the matchup difficult are Lucario's dair which beats our nair, uair, and bair; eliminating several kill options; and the fact that you can't safely air-dodge through a lot of Lucario's attacks.
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I'll agree on Lucario's Dair...treat it like Lucas' Dair...you won't win if you try to fight around it...
 
AvariceX

AvariceX

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_clinton said:
Could I play your buddy's Zamus?



I'll agree on Lucario's Dair...treat it like Lucas' Dair...you won't win if you try to fight around it...
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My buddy doesn't travel very far and doesn't play online. You'd have to come to a Toronto area tourney and look for Guru to play him :p
 
Rickerdy-doo-da-day

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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I'm not sure where this should be posted so here will do I guess

Dunno if it was already known but Peach can continually pummel --> grab release Ness (this bit is known) but I've found that Peach can force a grab release on Ness and provided Peach doesn't mess up, can 100% guaranteed hit Ness with her Fair. The timing is very strict but it can be done

Just thought I'd let you all know
 
PKNintendo

PKNintendo

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Ugh, whoopsie, I left this on for a while.
Anyone no which other character you want to discuss.

Guaranteed?
Frame Data?
LEVITAS!?!

And Eww.
 
AdmantNESS

AdmantNESS

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AdmantNESS said:
Im going to list the characters remaning and the ones that need a revisit in my opinion alongside my comments.

Characters Remaining:
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Mr. Game & Watch

Characters that need revisiting:

Link: Very brief discussion that was(6 posts) but if you want Link mainers input(most of them anyway), you'll have to go to Allisbrawl since they moved there.

Snake: They didn't respond except one. More input from them would be nice but they ignored our topic.

Marth: Largely ignored us.

Diddy: We basically need a consensus. We had their input but our stubborness scared off one of them.

Captain Falcon: We had 2 Mainers come here I believe, but there was an interruption by G/Ws.

Olimar: We only had 1 Olimar come and there a MK tangent at the beggining. Someone did bring up a nice ViceGrip post though that sums it up for the Ness side.

Ganondorf: No input from the Ganon mains and no ratio listed, but some nice points were brought up regardless.
Click to expand...
That's who's left. If we do move to another character, we can go back to Lucario later.
 
PK-ow!

PK-ow!

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I'm surprised the Snakes snubbed us.
How long ago was this? I want to try them again.

We should wait on Ganons. I think they want to cycle into discussing top tiers soon.

Personally I can't gather enough data on Diddy. I $%#&ing can't deal with that chimp. I've been looking into learning a whole new character just to CP **** Diddys.
The only douche I hate more is Wario. He's so God**** disgusting I can barely stand to watch recordings of him. :smoke:
 
FireKirby7

FireKirby7

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Have you tryed using the nannerz against Diddy? It works pretty well! You can easily grab them with nair. I find Diddy's to be predictable with bananas.....

Also, when Diddy is at high %, banana trip > Ness bthrow. :chuckle: Kill him with this.


EDIT: Oh, I want to discuss G&W...... I have so much trouble against him. All of his moves are unpunishable, and that's where I usually shine. D:
 
Rickerdy-doo-da-day

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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PKNintendo said:
Guaranteed?
Click to expand...
Yes

PKNintendo said:
Frame Data?
Click to expand...
Jump = 5 frames
Fair = 16 frames

Ness suffers 20 (50-30) frames of not being able to do anything. Technically, he could avoid it...but he doesn't have anything that comes out on frame 1 so he can't D:

PKNintendo said:
LEVITAS!?!
Click to expand...
I demand cool diagrams lol

PKNintendo said:
And Eww.
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Very eww. To quote MrEh

MrEh said:
It's pretty gay actually.

Because you're doing so much pummeling, your Fair is guaranteed to be fresh after a couple regrabs or so. So once you get to the ledge, Ness is boned. Fair him and watch him die. Because the chaingrab will always refresh your Fair, you can just spam your Fair all day without worrying about it getting stale. The chaingrab will take care of that. ^^

As long as you can jump on the first frame, it's so easy to land the Fair, since you can buffer it.
Click to expand...
 
Earthbound Zero

Earthbound Zero

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It's 60/40 to 65-35 Snakes favor. ):

Grab=Free Utilt or Ftilt

Giant Pivot Grab range.

Thankfully, I don't think the grenades are that big of a problem for Ness.
 
AvariceX

AvariceX

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Snake can't grab release to utilt Ness unless the Ness is stupid and just falls into it. Ness isn't Wario. The only free ftilt Snake gets is if he tech-chases a dthrow. I have a lot of experience playing against the best Snake, and for the good of Ness mains everywhere if I'm wrong then don't post why; he doesn't need anymore help :p.

It's definitely in Snake's favor...probably around 60/40; Ness has a decent chance. If you want to stand a chance though you need to learn to mix up your approaches, and never try to rush him down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J99t6P1nxaA This is the closest I've come to beating him. It's pretty old, and I used way too much PK-Fire, but it still kinda gives an idea of the match.
 
Earthbound Zero

Earthbound Zero

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I've been lied to then. D:

I find the Snake matchup hard, but doable. I've only fought a few good Snake mains though. That video pretty much sums everything up.
 
PK-ow!

PK-ow!

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Man of Popsicle said:
I CP Captain Falcon, no joke.
Click to expand...
Funnily enough, it almost works... but apparently Falcon *cannot* beat a Snake TurboJab.


Yeah, the Snake matchup... explosions aren't a big problem for Ness. Ftilt **** isn't a big problem for Ness. If Avarice is right, even grabs aren't a problem here.

It's really, just... the god**** weight and unfair power + priority that seem heaped upon the soldier of Fortune. It tips the game against us simply in making the K.O. ranges absurdly lopsided.

6:4 makes perfect sense.
EDIT: Any random Snake main would say 6.5:3.5 though.

Does Ally even have an SWF acct? What does he say?
 
AvariceX

AvariceX

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Ally's SWF account is Ally. He doesn't really like talking theory though. I try badgering him for advice sometimes and he gives like 1-2 word responses XD.
 
Uffe

Uffe

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Cacti said:
Snake can grab release to Utilt?

T_T

Time to find a secondary...
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Um, not really. I'm pretty sure he can do this to just about every character in the game. I'd say it's pretty similar to Mr. Game & Watch's d-throw > d-smash.
 
Uffe

Uffe

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Man of Popsicle said:
Can't you tech that?

And with snakes dthrow... can't you stand up/trip attack?
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Yes, you can. But don't make it so obvious. Mr. Game & Watch can tech chase you or if he happens to go the same direction you're going, he can just up smash you. I'd say predict, but nobody can predict where their opponent is going to go unless they make it obvious. Like if I were to get d-thrown, I could either stay there or move left or right. Of course staying there makes it even more predictable. Chances are G&W will up smash to the right side instead of the left side. But anything goes.

Anyway, back with Snake. He can d-throw > u-tilt. I've seen it happen, but I never allowed Snake to do it on me. I don't think it's inescapable.
 
AvariceX

AvariceX

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Uffe said:
Anyway, back with Snake. He can d-throw > u-tilt. I've seen it happen, but I never allowed Snake to do it on me. I don't think it's inescapable.
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This is something I actually asked Ally about last time I talked to him. Dthrow utilt only works if Snake's opponent doesn't roll/get-up out of the dthrow right away. If they try to wait as a mindgame or whatever then utilt can work.

This was actually right before Ally tried to kill me in fact. >_>
 
Meian

Meian

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AvariceX said:
Snake can't grab release to utilt Ness unless the Ness is stupid and just falls into it. Ness isn't Wario. The only free ftilt Snake gets is if he tech-chases a dthrow. I have a lot of experience playing against the best Snake, and for the good of Ness mains everywhere if I'm wrong then don't post why; he doesn't need anymore help :p.

It's definitely in Snake's favor...probably around 60/40; Ness has a decent chance. If you want to stand a chance though you need to learn to mix up your approaches, and never try to rush him down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J99t6P1nxaA This is the closest I've come to beating him. It's pretty old, and I used way too much PK-Fire, but it still kinda gives an idea of the match.
Click to expand...
More or less what I have to agree with. I think being much lighter than Snake and being very careful against grenades is the main issue. Can't think of too many stages to stay away from outside of Yoshi's Island and prolly Battlefield.

My friend is the hardest Snake I ever fought. Don't have a vid of us fighting but heres one of him facing a good DK (and some more if you want to look around in his profile) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4A7Xc2zx74&feature=related

The grenade dropping in frame 1 drives me crazy sometimes... It is weird when I do better on Ganondorf against him (flame choke shield grenades) than Ness :\


Btw, is the front page going to be updated especially with the gathered info on each char? I had to look all around to find what was said about some chars especially Meta Knight since the guy who beat me last tourney with him will be there this Saturday.
 
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