The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

bigman40 · Jun 6, 2009

Alright. I'm home, tired as ****, and missed a ****load of posts. So I'ma be back-tracking quite a bit.

TheReflexWonder said:
That sounds about right...although the first time Bwett did a Draconic Reverse when I played him in Baton Rouge, I screamed like a little girl and ran to the other side of the stage for a couple seconds. It's intimidating to face something you don't understand.

If you want a real understanding of it, then just play me. Bwett's told me that he's been learning it, but isn't completely comfortable using it quite yet when the moment comes. I've been working with it for a good while, and I've started pushing things with it too. Although, if you go Wario, I don't think it'll be as useful as people might think it would be lol.

Deathcarter said:
dr. mario guy, someone earlier asked about your analysis on Yoshi. Since no one knows **** on Yoshi (except Yoshi mains though I personally beleive they inflate their matchup ratios), I too would like the opinion of someone who is at least educated on the game in general.

Yeah, that was me. I would rather get opinions from someone who's knowledgeable at the game, but is also not a **** when explaining their stuff. Our Matchup ratios are old as **** (we haven't made a new ratio thread yet lol), so it's best to disregard it all together IMO.

Paranormalsin said:
once draconic reverse and draconic trot is mastered, as it already is by some, im sure he will move up maybe one spot or two, but the extreme lack of a good up b is not helping him any. not to mention he does have some chain grabs that im sure mixed with DR and DT will be quite nasty.

DR/DT does a little of help for his options from CGs, but not as much as people would think. It's actually a very minimal help from it (inescapeable wise). But I'm glad you think better than most people on this tech

Sir 0rion said:
Actually, I hate to say it, but most Yoshi mains agree that DR is situational at best. Most of the stuff you used wavedashing for in Melee you can pretty much do automatically on Brawl, so although there are a few mindgames and uses you can get out of it, on the whole there's not much meat to the AT.

I'm one of the better DR guys out there (though Scatz is still better than me), and I rarely use it unless the situation really calls for it.

Naturally it wouldn't from the fact that everything is harder to punish in a defensive game. Melee offered combos, which gave some more meat to WDing. Paranormalsin kinda hit the bullet when explaning what it's meant.

Paranormalsin said:
i agree that scatz is too good at it. but i watched his video, and by the looks of it, it will apply to yoshis mind games much like spin-dash cancels has applied to sonics. im not saying it will push him up 5+ spots, but maybe one atleast.

To add to this, the only other small factor DR/DT could possibly add is the fact that Yoshi's speed is boosted. This makes his punishing game get somewhat better cause of the fact that you can follow immediately, if they attempt to retreat cause of a laggy move.

dr.mario guy said:
Also I promise to do Yoshi sometime later today lol.

Take your time. I'm in no rush. I want it to be everything to think about him.

Blad01 · Jun 6, 2009

__crystal____ said:
I think it's been proven that representation doesn't effect the standards of how the characters are ranked. Falco has had the worst representation of all the top tiers for the last year or so. And Falco hasn't really changed postion much, 5th, 3rd, and not 4th.

Apparently, it doesn't count when the character's potential has already been proven in the past.

And this is not the case for Wolf, indeed. :/

(Moreover, Falco seems to be an exception on this V3.)

--

Sonic's spot is really bad, as some have already said. Better placing than Sheik, Bowser, Zelda ? :/

Actually, while overall the tier list, and the tiers repartition is pretty good (even if MK/Snake should have been in a SS Tier), there some really debatable characters' spots.
In particular, ZSS's spot, Fox being > Wolf, and Zelda's spot are relatively surprising.

Wolf and Zelda lack representation in America, sadly :/

Kamikaze* · Jun 6, 2009

Jack Frost said:
People actually should not care where there character is on the tier list, all this list shows is how good characters have been placing right?

Then that's when new people look at it and go "oh im gonna main mk!" >_>

*facepalm*

ShadowLink84 · Jun 6, 2009

Blad01 said:
Sonic's spot is really bad, as some have already said. Better placing than Sheik, Bowser, Zelda ? I don't think so...

How?

10char

EdreesesPieces · Jun 6, 2009

You can bet fanboys effect tiers. Most Peach mains are a fan of Peach, including myself. If she had the same moveset but was named Ice Climbers, there's no way in hell I'd be using her. I bet you if Sonic had the same moveset but looked like Pichu or something similar, a lot less people would put in the effort. Fanboys can't make a bad character better than they actually are, but a lack of fanoboys can prevent otherwise decent characters from realizing their potential. To me Luigi suffers from this. Bet you anything if you had the same number of Luigi fans as Sonic fans, luigi would be much higher on this list.

Marcbri · Jun 6, 2009

Blad01 said:
Sonic's spot is really bad, as some have already said. Better placing than Sheik, Bowser, Zelda ? :/

I think Sonic is in a good position right now, Bowser has impossible match-ups like DDD, IC or Diddy that are at least 20-80. Zelda and Sheik are only higher ( and way higher) if they are together since then they don't have hard counters. However, when they are alone they suck.

Wolf maybe could be higher, but only a spot or two. It's been years since I've seen a good Wolf and I keep seeing Fox improving so it isn't strange that Fox is higher than Wolf in this tier list.

Blad01 · Jun 6, 2009

Marcbri said:
Zelda and Sheik are only higher ( and way higher) if they are together since then they don't have hard counters. However, when they are alone they suck.

No, I don't think that Zelda alone sucks. Yes, shes has two hard counters (G&W and Olimar), she has even match-ups with most of the top tier / High tier.

(Dedede, Wario, Falco, Diddy, ROB...)

Sure, she is not amazing, and is not going to win any tournaments, but still deserves to be higher.

(Personnally Jujux convinced me she was a middle character)

Wolf maybe could be higher, but only a spot or two. It's been years since I've seen a good Wolf and I keep seeing Fox improving so it isn't strange that Fox is higher than Wolf in this tier list.

Blad01 said:
Apparently, it doesn't count when the character's potential has already been proven in the past.

And this is not the case for Wolf, indeed. :/

It might be understandable that Fox is higher than Wolf in this tier list thanks to tournaments results, but talking about characters' potential, Wolf deserves to be higher.
Wolf just needs to apply his metagame better imo.

(I was basically saying the same thing that you, by the way)

ShadowLink84 · Jun 6, 2009

Blad01 said:
No, I don't think that Zelda alone sucks. Yes, shes has two hard counters (G&W and Olimar), she has even match-ups with most of the top tier / High tier.

(Dedede, Wario, Falco, Diddy, ROB...)

What about the rest of her matchups?
Just mentioning high tier and top tier is not enough.
Certainly this tierlist is currently influenced by metagame, but it woulds till mean bring up all 30+ matchup[s that she has up.
Not just the ones in high tier and top tier.

The fact that she suffers two hard counters where Sonic is suffering none, is enough to knock her down below him.

Blad01 said:
Sure, she is not amazing, and is not going to win any tournaments, but still deserves to be higher.

Not if she has those two hard counters or even one. Since that is enough to severely drop a character because it means that in spite of all their potential, they can be taken down easily by one character.

On matchups alone Sonic is superior to both Zelda and Sheik currently.

Personally I believe even if the characters are to be tiered separately it should be taken into account the ability to switch from one character from another.
At which point yes, they should be above Sonic.

I asked also earlier your reasoning and you seemed to ignore me.

Hurt I am.

Flayl · Jun 6, 2009

Bowser vs Diddy isn't god**** 20-80. It's a bad matchup for Bowser, sure, but not any worse than Falco.

Fatmanonice · Jun 6, 2009

EdreesesPieces said:
You can bet fanboys effect tiers. Most Peach mains are a fan of Peach, including myself. If she had the same moveset but was named Ice Climbers, there's no way in hell I'd be using her. I bet you if Sonic had the same moveset but looked like Pichu or something similar, a lot less people would put in the effort. Fanboys can't make a bad character better than they actually are, but a lack of fanoboys can prevent otherwise decent characters from realizing their potential. To me Luigi suffers from this. Bet you anything if you had the same number of Luigi fans as Sonic fans, luigi would be much higher on this list.

I said this in the Tournament rankings thread about a month ago and got accused of being overly biased against Sonic; go figure... I'm glad I'm not the only person who realizes this.

The fact that Wario is now third ranked absolutely astounds me despite the fact that I'm a big fan of the character. I was sure that his craptastic range, high learning curve, and infinite/grab release issues would hold him down but, apparently, those really haven't come into play in higher levels of playing. Still, I applaude the fact that Wario players have been able to rise against these problems. I remember how almost this time last year we were bemourning all the infinites that Mmac discovered and how many of us thought that he was going to take a nose dive in the ranks thanks to them.

Chaco · Jun 6, 2009

bigman40 said:
Our Matchup ratios are old as **** (we haven't made a new ratio thread yet lol), so it's best to disregard it all together IMO.

This, and Mmac had a baaaaad habit of making them seem more prone to Yoshi winning or even.

DR/DT does a little of help for his options from CGs, but not as much as people would think. It's actually a very minimal help from it (inescapeable wise). But I'm glad you think better than most people on this tech

What he said. Release to DT Smashes is inescapable on a few, and unpunishable on Meta.

To add to this, the only other small factor DR/DT could possibly add is the fact that Yoshi's speed is boosted. This makes his punishing game get somewhat better cause of the fact that you can follow immediately, if they attempt to retreat cause of a laggy move.

Yep, DR/DT can really boost your speed. Originally when I found DT I meant for it to be used as a speed booster. It does have uses for that, but not in a continuous motion. As I had imagined. I was rather naive to it then.

I don't even use the tech as much as I'd like to. Because limited tourneys near me, and being forced to pretty much play strictly online. Hopefully that'll change in the next few weeks though.

Gotta get Stroupes's *** in gear.

ShadowLink84 · Jun 6, 2009

EdreesesPieces said:
Fanboys can't make a bad character better than they actually are, but a lack of fanoboys can prevent otherwise decent characters from realizing their potential. To me Luigi suffers from this. Bet you anything if you had the same number of Luigi fans as Sonic fans, luigi would be much higher on this list.

I would have to agree somewhat and disagree a bit as well.

While it is true that fanboys can aid in the progression of the characters metagame, this does not necessarily mean they will end up higher on the tierlist.

Even if fanboys do aid in the progression of the metagame, it would not be enough of the character was not showing the results of that advancement.

Look at Wario, even though he does not have as many fans as MK, he has shown himself capable of rising in the tierlist.

Yeah fanboys can aid in the growth of the metagame, but if that growth doesn't prove fruitful, it won't matter. Even then no matter how much potential is unleashed, some characters just suck.

DanGR · Jun 6, 2009

Blad01 said:
Apparently, it doesn't count when the character's potential has already been proven in the past.

When a character's potential has been proven in the past, that's the past. Characters' metagames evolve. You've got to prove relatively recently that a character is good for it to matter.

Blad01 said:
No, I don't think that Zelda alone sucks.

he eh...

PrinceRamen · Jun 6, 2009

Holy crap!!! The Sonics are on steroids!

All my mains went up or stayed the same, except for marth. -1

CO18 · Jun 6, 2009

My character went up now I will magically start doing better in tournaments!!!

RenegadeRaven · Jun 6, 2009

^^ LOL, that.

If Sonic was doing so well while in Low tier, just imagine his results now that he's in Mid tier. They're gonna be hawt.

Melomaniacal · Jun 6, 2009

Characters become better or worse according to their tier placing? That's news to me.

Moozle · Jun 6, 2009

I totally called the sonic thing lol :o But yeah, the characters aren't changing. I have to say, though, that playing someone that is considered better than yourself poses a mental challenge that is sometimes hard to overcome.

Edit:Granted, If people think he's better, more people will play him, so more people will place. So I guess his placings might go up due to this.

Rudementry · Jun 7, 2009

I knew pikachu was top tier. I've been trying to tell people that for forever.

Camalange · Jun 7, 2009

CO18 said:
My character went up now I will magically start doing better in tournaments!!!

LOLOL

That's what I was thinking XD Everyone's like "ZOMG, SONIC'S MID TIER! ILL BE GOOD WITH HIM NOW!" but he hasn't changed as a character. He's been placing mid tier worthy results for a long time now, people just chose to ignore it until just recently.

He's just now getting somewhere because all the loyal people who played him from the start, have stuck around and got him to this ~~point~~ steak today. The Sonic community is just strong as a whole, and we're dedicated, and determined. The only low tier to truley step it up.

People keep saying that now that Sonic's mid tier, more people will use him. It's completley wrong because Sonic takes forever to LEARN let alone WIN with. Most people on their trail of learning Sonic enter a pool of depression and it leads to their tragic downfall. lol, his learning curve is GIANT.

Most people can't get past "The Difference Between Down-B and Side-B"

@Renegade - His tourney results won't change due to the reasons just stated. Actually, they'll probably drop now that Malcolm decided to go all Wario until the next tier list. lol

Hidden MachineS · Jun 7, 2009

Sonic. Is. Amazing.

darkchaos59 · Jun 7, 2009

Its good that sonic moved up but i dont think he deserved to move that much

Browny · Jun 7, 2009

Why wouldnt he deserve it?

It seems to me the only thing that kept him in bottom tier was how he looked on paper with damage per attack etc (lol compare to ganondorf...) which should be worth precisely 0% of any vote imo

eRonin · Jun 7, 2009

No way is Captain Falcon better than Ganondorf...I refuse to believe it. Good thing I already started maining Link...now I just have to move a step down to get to Ganondorf (I like maining bottom tier it's fun)
Sonic moved up a heck of a lot of places...not really complaining, I don't know much about Sonic...Pokemon Trainer higher than Ike now...omoshiroi...how is that possible, lol =P

Khaoz · Jun 7, 2009

Fyist said:
I thought falco would drop alot more....

ditto

I'm surprised MK didn't go up either. =P

Sorto · Jun 7, 2009

I guess Sakurai and the smash development team don't know how to add new characters to a game with out making them better then the rest of the cast. The whole S tier in brawl is new characters, except for falco, but he has been completely changed from his melee counterpart. So the whole S tier is pretty much "NEW".

Another thing I find funny, is the entire top tier in melee was also from the new cast, except for the space animal who ranked 4th in the prior smash game (smash 64). Brawl follows that exact same pattern. The entire top tier (S tier) is new, except it has one space animal who ranked 4th in the smash game that came before it (melee). Oh yeah and both spacies, who follow this pattern, had atleast one new move that they aquired in the newer game (i suppose that had to happen in melee). Well anyway, I am done with findin stupid patterns.

I am suprised Marth and G&W went down. Especially G&W. He just has such good priority, air speed, and range. I guess his kill moves were too slow or somethin? And I also feel IC will raise some more. Oh yea and suprised that wario is that high. He def disserves S tier. But Right below snake, Idts.

Yanoss1313 · Jun 7, 2009

hmm, i'm still missing how sonic's not ****...

Red Arremer · Jun 7, 2009

Sorto said:
I guess Sakurai and the smash development team don't know how to add new characters to a game with out making them better then the rest of the cast. The whole S tier in brawl is new characters, except for falco, but he has been completely changed from his melee counterpart. So the whole S tier is pretty much "NEW".

Another thing I find funny, is the entire top tier in melee was also from the new cast, except for the space animal who ranked 4th in the prior smash game (smash 64). Brawl follows that exact same pattern. The entire top tier (S tier) is new, except it has one space animal who ranked 4th in the smash game that came before it (melee). Oh yeah and both spacies, who follow this pattern, had atleast one new move that they aquired in the newer game (i suppose that had to happen in melee). Well anyway, I am done with findin stupid patterns.

I noticed this, too. Good observation.

ShadowLink84 said:
Don't say that, you speak perfectly well.

Liar.

Commander_Beef · Jun 7, 2009

PrinceRamen said:
Holy crap!!! The Sonics are on steroids!

All my mains went up or stayed the same, except for marth. -1

Sonic actually has a higher learning curve than people place him as, seriously. It's such a surprise he went to middle tier, I expect him to go down at least one spot afterwards.

Inui · Jun 7, 2009

PT is broken in low tier tournaments. It's clear that he ***** every other character allowed in them based on the current tier list. I'm just lucky my Ike is amazing and that he's rated so low, lol. Without Sonic allowed, it's a massacre for me in NJ for low tier events due to my Ike. PT is like 5 spots lower than he should be at least... Oh well. At least I can beat the PT players now, but it's only a matter of time before Atomsk gets better with PT, and then we're all doomed.

Steeler · Jun 7, 2009

Sadaharu Inui said:
PT is broken ... It's clear that he ***** every other character ... he's rated so low, lol ... it's a massacre ... we're all doomed.

lol sigged

this was a pretty worthy 2500 post

The Nameless Wanderer · Jun 7, 2009

Since when did Atosmk picked up PT O_O?

Inui · Jun 7, 2009

The Nameless Wanderer said:
Since when did Atosmk picked up PT O_O?

He's always used Ivysaur a lot, but he's been using the other ones more. We got 2nd in low tier doubles with Ike/PT, but we lost to the good PT/Jiggs team since I kept getting gimped and it's too hard for me to avoid hitting my partner. It's way easier to use Ike in singles, which is strange for me, since I'm probably like one of the best (top 10 probably) doubles players in the nation, but not so hot in singles...

Cioran · Jun 7, 2009

Question: I haven't been on the boards in a while. Why is everyone hating on Inui? I have always considered him smug (to say the least). Looking forward to a juicy answer.

PS - Hell yes Kirby! Movin' on upl

- C i 0

Kinzer · Jun 7, 2009

I'm a Sonic fanboy.

I hated his style of play when I first got the game, realized then that he didn't feel right.

Moved on to Ike, I'll tell you I didn't know one thing about him except he was apparently going to be in Brawl.

Yeah, fanboys affect the silly tier list.

Also FMOI, maybe you got turned down because you were wrong?

I'm also going to lol @ people who suggest that he is now higher more people will pick him up... at least what is true is that once people start figuring him out, it will be harder... but certainly nobody is going to want to bother with him or progressing his metagame oh no sir he is much too complicated of a character for that.

Inui · Jun 7, 2009

Cioran said:
Question: I haven't been on the boards in a while. Why is everyone hating on Inui? I have always considered him smug (to say the least). Looking forward to a juicy answer.

PS - Hell yes Kirby! Movin' on upl

- C i 0

Few people like arrogance.

Especially when that arrogant person wins...a lot.

That's really the jist of it.

Steeler · Jun 7, 2009

hey, i don't have anything against inui

in fact, i even like the guy

he's finally realized the truth that all will soon see...

Sadaharu Inui said:
PT is broken

Inui · Jun 7, 2009

I mean... PT is obviously way too low (along with the Ice Climbers), but some people just don't see it. Hopefully things change in the future when Reflex ***** more tournaments.

Steeler · Jun 7, 2009

he'll end up around the top of "C" tier years from now

i'm callin it right now

Brinzy · Jun 7, 2009

It is true that PT is gonna continue to rise. He's a pretty decent character...

The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Bros Before Hos

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Banned via Warnings

Never Logs In

Smash Hero

BRoomer

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

ㅤ

Banned via Warnings

Smash Cadet

Smash Hater

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Banned via Warnings

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Banned via Warnings

Smash Cadet

Mammy

Banned via Warnings

Smash Hero

Banned via Warnings

Smash Hero

Godfather of the Crimean Mafia

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