APM of Smashers. July Update - The Fastest Peach

i retract my post....

I dun think it'd be easier to get a higher APM in smash than in SC, because in SC you have to constantly be doing stuff, and it's pretty much free cast, in smash you have situations that your character is in where you are going to be doing a lot less actions than other situations.

When you're on the offensive, comboing or juggling your opponent, you're going to have a much higher apm than if you were on the defensive, shielding or recovering, whereas in SC afaik you're constantly maintaining whatever it is you need to do.

Smash and starcraft are completely different games, the only link between the two is the fact that we've decided to calculate APM in smash. The games shouldn't be compared

And in reality, if someone was exceedingly good at smash, they would never attack unless it hit, and their attack would always lead into a combo, which would lead into death or knock their opponent far away. So at really high levels of smash where people aren't just spamming attacks I can see the apm actually dropping considerably because when you attack and miss, you leave yourself open.

I think the apples vs oranges argument applies in a different way
Think of how you move (the screen or your character, same thought process here) in both games
In SC, its through the mouse, in Smash, its through the control stick
However, note that we're counting the control sticks motions in Smash, but not the movements of the Mouse in SC. It would essentially multiply starcraft APM by 2, making everyone seem like Oldschool spamming NaDa

knihT said:

And in reality, if someone was exceedingly good at smash, they would never attack unless it hit, and their attack would always lead into a combo, which would lead into death or knock their opponent far away. So at really high levels of smash where people aren't just spamming attacks I can see the apm actually dropping considerably because when you attack and miss, you leave yourself open.

Click to expand...

While I agree with your argument, I do have to correct you. Throwing out attacks is practically a necessity among high level play where everyone moves extremely quickly and thus can punish any vulnerable spots left open by the opponent. Creating hitboxes around your character is a great way to defend yourself against such punishment, and if your opponent gets caught in one of the hitboxes, you can then punish your opponent.

Falco's lasers are a great example, yeah?

Phoenix~Lament said:

While I agree with your argument, I do have to correct you. Throwing out attacks is practically a necessity among high level play where everyone moves extremely quickly and thus can punish any vulnerable spots left open by the opponent. Creating hitboxes around your character is a great way to defend yourself against such punishment, and if your opponent gets caught in one of the hitboxes, you can then punish your opponent.

Falco's lasers are a great example, yeah?

Click to expand...

Falco is the only character who is really able to apply constant pressure from a distance.
The level of play that the pro's are at now (which very well be near the peak) allows for some attacks to cut off options, or that go unpunished, but every attack has a spot of vulnerability, whereas when you're not attacking, when you're just standing there, you are least vulnerable, you can shield, counter attack, spot dodge, jump, anything.

Of course if no one approached then there would be a lot of DDing and waiting, because generally the your prime opportunity to attack is when your opponent has messed up, jumped and attacked when you wanted him to, missed a grab, done something that leaves him open to get punished.

This argument is pointless. This isn't a comparison between games or the skills of that game's players, it's just observational knowledge. Of course it's practically irrelevant to know the APM of a Melee player, the same argument could be made for StarCraft. Whether you have 500APM or just 50, who ultimately wins is what matters. I've never witnessed it, but I'm fairly certain there are many SC matches in which somebody with less APM beats someone with higher. It doesn't matter so much how many APM you have, but moreover what you actually do with those actions.

As far as Melee APM tabulations are concerned, I think any situation in which you don't have full control over your character should be deducted from the total time of the match. Spawning, waiting for the opponent's respawn (not counting any actions done in that time,) in hitstun (from after DI is input until the tumble animations starts,) shield break stun, In an enemy's grab (wiggling out of an enemy's grab isn't really any specific actions, it's just mashing,) or not doing any inputs whatsoever.

As for what should be given the benefit of the doubt would be any and all DI, CSDI, LCs, etc. Even though they either don't happen or we don't see them happen, I'd say it's at least 95% probable that a top level player would input the actions, regardless of if it was successful or not.

I think I'm going give a Pink Shinobi match a try this weekend, he should be technical and fast enough to provide some interesting results.

S.G. said:

I think the apples vs oranges argument applies in a different way
Think of how you move (the screen or your character, same thought process here) in both games
In SC, its through the mouse, in Smash, its through the control stick
However, note that we're counting the control sticks motions in Smash, but not the movements of the Mouse in SC. It would essentially multiply starcraft APM by 2, making everyone seem like Oldschool spamming NaDa

Click to expand...

quoting so more people read it. I hadn't thought of this point, but it's really valid.

id bet i could get 400

S.G. said:

I think the apples vs oranges argument applies in a different way
Think of how you move (the screen or your character, same thought process here) in both games
In SC, its through the mouse, in Smash, its through the control stick
However, note that we're counting the control sticks motions in Smash, but not the movements of the Mouse in SC. It would essentially multiply starcraft APM by 2, making everyone seem like Oldschool spamming NaDa

Click to expand...

Moving the mouse accomplishes nothing without clicking, and all mouseclicks are recorded. I'd imagine moving the mouse would be more synonymous with moving your thumb/fingers from point A to point B on the controller rather than the actual input itself.

EDIT: Smash obviously doesn't have as many open situations in which you can input actions to get your APM up, so the correlation shouldn't even be made between Smash APM and StarCraft APM. It is really interesting, however, to see that many APM being done in Smash with so many restrictions.

New Data - Darkrain!

So I decided to do one of these myself. The match I used was Darkrain vs. Jman 1 from Event 52, 5/24/2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z80kR5tcGY I found Darkrain’s APM.

It was an exciting, fast-paced match of average legnth. I think you might get some interesting insights from comparing Darkrain and Isai’s actions.

SO:

Jumps: 81

Dashes : 110

Aerial DI (This isn’t DI, I can’t remember what its really called. I counted it whenever Darkrain jumped forwards and slowed down or when Darkrain jumped backwards from a standing position. Also when he adjusted his position to sweetspot his Up-B. Basically whenever he clearly moved the control stick while in the air. The other APMs didn’t take this into account and I think that was a mistake): 47

Aerials (assume 1 input): 70

Fast Falls: 63

L-cancels: 65

DI Inputs (number of times hit): 19

Sheilds : 16

Grabs/ Throws: JCGT – 12 x 3 = 36
GT – 4 x2 = 8
JCGM – 3 x2 = 6
GM – 1 x 1 = 1
Total Inputthrows = 51

Rolls: 6 x 2 = 12 inputs

Air Dodge: 0

Spot Dodge: 0

Specials: Neutral: 0
Side: 0
Down: 3
Up: 5
Inputs – 8 x 2 = 16

Wavedashes: 12 x 3 = 36 inputs

Wavelands: 0

Tilts: 1 x 2 = 2 inputs

Taunts, Smashes, Dash attacks, platform drop-throughs (FD), walljumps : 0

Techs : Side – 1
Up – 2
Inputs = 4

Actions from the ground: Roll – 1, stand – 0, attack - 0, 1 input

Actions from ledge : Ledge Drops – 8 x 2 = 16
Rolls = 2
Stand - 1
Attack – 0
Inputs – 19

Jabs (the APM for Isai forgot jabs I think): 17 inputs (I took into account whether he jabbed once, twice, or trice but didn’t record it, sorry)

Total Inputs = 546

Match Time = 2:33 = 2.55 minutes

Estimated APM = 214

Notes: My method of collecting data was most similar to the one for Isai. I used the whole match (from the game’s timer) and didn’t count idle time or anything like the one for Shiz.

Notes on accuracy: These categories were difficult to count: DI, Aerial DI, Dashes, Fast falls, and Jumps. I feel that I definetely errored on the side of giving Darkrain a lower APM then he actually has, for example there were several instances where Darkrain sweetspotted the ledge with Up-B and Jman attempted to downsmash edgegaurd. When this happened Darkrain probably pre-emptive teched and SDI’ed towards the stage and none of that got counted. And besides that If I wasn’t sure then I just didn’t count it like when he was dash-dancing around faster then my eye could really follow. I would really say this was like, the minimum APM for that match.

I think I had more to say that I can't remember now...

Nice job Ocho! Darkrain's APM is the closest to Isai's so far. They do have similiar styles, and of course they play the same character. Interesting.

This thread is so much fun to poke around. I like the idea.

Who's the most hyper active smasher? Do a APM for him. Haha.

Jihnsius said:

Moving the mouse accomplishes nothing without clicking, and all mouseclicks are recorded. I'd imagine moving the mouse would be more synonymous with moving your thumb/fingers from point A to point B on the controller rather than the actual input itself.

EDIT: Smash obviously doesn't have as many open situations in which you can input actions to get your APM up, so the correlation shouldn't even be made between Smash APM and StarCraft APM. It is really interesting, however, to see that many APM being done in Smash with so many restrictions.

Click to expand...

For your first point, I'm just gonna be succinct and say that moving your mouse or the control stick both put you into position to do something, but not actually performing an action that improves your likelihood to win the game/ beat your opponent

I found the 2nd one interesting though

I'd say about 90% of the stuff done in between stocks for non Luigi/Shiek/Peach/Samus players is to simply raise APM, (or, in easier terms, get your hands ready)
I mean, all of the moonwalks, dash dances, jc shines, double lasers, wavedashes, and even taunts in between stocks really doesn't have a purpose and the smash APMs would probably go down by a lot


I <3 this thread haha

I wouldn't say between stock actions are done for improving APM, since there's really no actual recording of APM going on. I personally do it just to "show off," and I'd assume most people do it for the same reason.

People mention SC when it comes to APM but no one ever mentions Gunz. In Gunz I hit 400-500 APM (very rough estimate, taken from 21,000 actions per hour (350APM) from an hour of almost constant training) constant with little spamming (there isn't much you can spam). And I'm not really all that "pro" at it either.

By the way, how does words per minute translate to APM? how much APM do you get when typing 60-70 WPM?

polyopulis said:

People mention SC when it comes to APM but no one ever mentions Gunz. In Gunz I hit 400-500 APM (very rough estimate, taken from 21,000 actions per hour (350APM) from an hour of almost constant training) constant with little spamming (there isn't much you can spam). And I'm not really all that "pro" at it either.

By the way, how does words per minute translate to APM? how much APM do you get when typing 60-70 WPM?

Click to expand...

Find the legnth of your average word, add one for a space, and multiply that number by 60 or 70.

4ish x 65 = 260 APM

polyopulis said:

People mention SC when it comes to APM but no one ever mentions Gunz. In Gunz I hit 400-500 APM (very rough estimate, taken from 21,000 actions per hour (350APM) from an hour of almost constant training) constant with little spamming (there isn't much you can spam). And I'm not really all that "pro" at it either.

By the way, how does words per minute translate to APM? how much APM do you get when typing 60-70 WPM?

Click to expand...

GunZ is too good.

Also; APM for Stepmania players. ;D

Rubyiris said:

Also; APM for Stepmania players. ;D

Click to expand...

A relatively hard 2 minute song will be around 1,000 steps. That's only around 500 APM, not too many. That's only a four button game, though.

1000 steps is average. The harder songs are in the 1500~2000 range.w

Ocho, I do have to note that my APM calculations indeed included "Aerial DI".

It's what "Move right, move left" after Jumping is, at least for my data

I'd say typing APM would probably be the highest out of any measurable medium for APM since there's no resting time at all, at least for good typists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Hlh4auohI

somebody do that one

Comeon D, its a 10 second clip! You could have done it yourself!

marth1's Captain Falcon No Bat Allowed Home Run Contest World Record

Dash
Jump
Fair
FF
L-cancel
Dash
Jump
Fair
FF
L-cancel
Jump
DI backwards
Bair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
DI backwards
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Turn
Jump
Dair
FF
Nair
L-cancel
Short Hop
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Downtilt (2)
Dash
Full Hop
Dair
Fair
L-cancel
Dash left
Dash right
Jump
Double Jump
Uair
FF
L-cancel
Dash
Full Hop
Dair
FF
Uair
L-cancel
Full Hop
DI forward
Double Jump
Falcon Punch

~54 actions
10 seconds
324 APM


----


Sin's Captain Falcon Traditional Home Run Contest World Record
Turn
Pickup Bat
Dash
Bair
FF
L-cancel
Short Hop
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Dair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Uair
FF
L-cancel
Full Hop
Catch Bat
Drop Bat
Double Jump
Stick Left
Falcon Punch

~65 actions
10 seconds
390 APM

Phoenix~Lament said:

Ocho, I do have to note that my APM calculations indeed included "Aerial DI".

It's what "Move right, move left" after Jumping is, at least for my data

I'd say typing APM would probably be the highest out of any measurable medium for APM since there's no resting time at all, at least for good typists.

Click to expand...

Movement is not DI, movement is just movement. DI only applies to altering your trajectory of knockback. You don't -influence- your directionality when you're moving. You simply move.

EDIT: If anyone does single player APM (HRC, BTT, etc,) keep in mind there is no c-stick. All attacks count as two inputs, except for neutrals. APM for those HRCs should be a little higher.

haha sorry rock

i wouldve gotten a different result than you if i had done it, i didnt trust myself to do it right

i probably wouldnt have even typed it out though

hrc was a good idea though right?

jihnsius got me thinking with that post about what really defines actions

i dont follow any other games where they talk about this stuff so i dunno, but i feel like they wouldnt count more than one button doing one thing as separate actions

if they do, i think it would be kind of cooler if they didnt

rock i'll do another stadium one to make up for it sometime

I think we're not debating what actions the characters in game do as much as we are what actions the player does.

yeah i guess youre right

i did G&W's break the target strat in my head, i got 12 actions over about 3 seconds for 360 apm

i was hoping for higher to be honest

luigi's i got slightly less but i cant remember exactly how the strat goes at the end, but its lower 20's for total actions and 4 seconds

Ocho(*8*) said:

Aerial DI (This isn’t DI, I can’t remember what its really called. I counted it whenever Darkrain jumped forwards and slowed down or when Darkrain jumped backwards from a standing position. Also when he adjusted his position to sweetspot his Up-B. Basically whenever he clearly moved the control stick while in the air. The other APMs didn’t take this into account and I think that was a mistake): 47

Click to expand...

Jihnsius, this is what I was referring to.

12x20 = 240....?
where'd you get 360?

First of all, I love this thread. great idea rockcrock, and great job to everyone that made a contribution.

I just wanna say about the mouse vs control stick debate, that I think that there is a difference between moving the mouse and moving the control stick. IF you think about it, you can count how many times the control stick is giving an input (unless you're just twirling it around, then it might be hard), but I'm not sure it's possible for mouse movement because the inputs would be so high and require almost no effort on average (like if you think about it per pixel the cursor is moving).

Although now that I think about it, the precision of the mouse movement is basically as important as any other technical aspect of sc.

there's no mouse pad for the control stick. you know?

Excuse the long post and random changes in shorthand, here goes a breakdown of a Pink Shinobi match. Scroll to the bottom for total APM.

I took into account almost every single noticeable control stick input and counted all downsmashes as c-stick while holding down on control stick, unless a crouch was noticeable beforehand, in which case I counted them seperately (two inputs any way you look at it.)

As for DI, I did not count any hit received as having DI input as each hit was during some other form of input, no hit was able to be readily prepared for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo0EPliWvH4
Pink Shinobi (Peach) vs SilentSpectre (Falcon) 2.4
Battlefield
starts at 0:23
ends at 3:50
total 3:37


right
left
right
right
left
getup
spot dodge (2)
crouch
crouch
downsmash
jump
air dodge back (2)
spot dodge (2)
crouch
crouch
dsmash
dsmash
dsmash
lost stock 0:34, 21 actions
114 APM

down
left
float (2)
fair (2)
ff
right
float (2)
bair (2)
ff
right
jump
dj
bair
lc
right
wd (3)
right
jump
fair (2)
lc
left
wd (2)
left
fc (3)
dair (2)
dsmash
left
jump
nair
right
dj
waveland
right
float
nair
ff
jab
if nair ff (5)
right
dash attack
left
crouch
dsmash
left
jump
float
left
fair (2)
ff
right
jump
nair
ff
lc
wd (3)
right
if dair ff (5)
jump
left
bair (2)
ff
lc
jab
jump
nair
roll
left
wd (3)
if fair ff (6)
if nair ff (6)
left
crouch
jump
left
dj
right
float
fair (2)
right
ff
right
jump
left
float
left
ff
ledge attack
right
shield
up-b (2)
attempt ff
up-b (2)
right
ff
right
tilt (2)
left
if nair back ff (7)
right
down b (2)
left
up turnip
down b (2)
jump
back
ff
left
right
left
techroll left (2)
shieldroll right (2)
platform drop
smashthrow turnip left
ff
if nair ff (6)
jab
if nair ff (6)
jump
nair
left
float
nair
ff
left
jump
bair (2)
right
lc
crouch
dsmash
shield
shieldgrab
upthrow
tilt (2)
left
ff
nair
lc
shield
spot dodge
crouch
dsmash
left
if dair ff (5)
jab jab (2)
jump
right
ff
right
left
right
if bair ff (5)
left
if fair ff (5)
right
dsmash (2)
spot dodge
if (3)
left
if nair ff (5)
right
dash attack
left
if nair ff (5)
down-b (2)
right
shield
roll left
shield
uthrow turnip
shield
if (2)
right
left
bair
ff
right
left
right
left
right
left
if nair -reverse- ff (6)
left
if (2)
right
shield
jump
left
dj
right
left
bair
lost stock 1:48, 287 actions
240APM

left
down
dj
right
bair
ff
lc
right
if fair ff (5)
jump
left
nair
ff
lc
left
right
if (2)
left
right
dj
up-b (2)
right
cc
dsmash
j
left
dj
right
float (2)
left
bair (2)
ff
right
j
left
dj
right
float (2)
left
right
bair (2)
right
ff
left
right
if right ff (4)
j
nair
right
lc
down b
j
left
float
turnip down (2)
dj
right
left
jab jab (2)
if dair (4)
left
right
j
nair
dj
right
dair (2)
lc
shield
j
right
float
dair (2)
right
ff
spot dodge (2)
dsmash (2)
down-b (2)
ss lost second stock 2:18, 2-2, 102 actions

throw turnip up
if nair right ff (6)
right
left
wd (2)
left
right
left
jump
air dodge down (2)
spot dodge (2)
right
if left bair ff (5)
dsmash (2)
right
left
dj
right
dj
up-b (2)
right
untumble (2)
dair (2)
right
shield
jump
left
dj
right
fair (2)
lc
crouch
jump
left
dj
right
bair (2)
right
lc
shield roll right (2)
right
bair (2)
left
lc
dsmash (2)
if nair right ff (5)
left
bair (2)
lc
left
dash attack
if nair ff (5)
right
wd (2)
right
left
getup
jump
left
dj
bair (2)
right
lc
untumble (2)
shield
j
left
-
dj
right
left
right
dj
left
bair (2)
lc
dsmash (2)
right
dj
left
bair (2)
jump
left
lost 3rd stock 2:59, 118 actions
stock time = 1:11
220 actions
186 APM

left
jump
float
down
right
bair (2)
lc
left
jump
bair (2)
left
dj
right
bair (2)
lc
left
if (2)
nair
lc
shield
right
dj
left
float (2)
right
dair (2)
left
bair (2)
right
ff
right
if nair ff (5)
right
j
nair
right
left
dj
bair (2)
left
ff
lc
right
left
if nair ff (5)
left
if
left
right
left
fair (2)
right
bair (2)
ff
wd (2)
down-b (2)
uthrow turnip
wd (3)
wd (3)
wd (3)
wd (3)
wd (3)
l
r
r
l
sdodge (2)
r
l
r
l
shield
shield
sdodge
getup
left
dj
right
float (2)
l
r
l
roll
r
dsmash (2)
l
dsmash (2)
r
dash attack
r
dash attack
jab jab (2)
if (3)
nair
right
left
bair (2)
dj
r
l
air dodge l (2)
ff
r
l
j
nair
dj
float (2)
left
dair (2)
ff
r
if nair ff (6)
if nair ff (5)
jab
if nair ff (5)
l
if (2)
dair
nair
ff
l
j
nair
l
r
dj
float (2)
fair (2)
ff
r
sdodge (2)
dsmash (2)
j
left
ff
dj
r
float (2)
l
r
ff
pink shinobi wins at 3:50, 213 actions
181 APM

741 actions total
3:50 - 0:23 = 3:27
3.45 total minutes
214 APM total.

I'd also like to point out something that deserves recognition in Pink Shinobi's case. He's one of the very few players I've seen capable of doing near perfect instant float nairs while retaining momentum. The input for that would be: dash (left/right), jump (x/y), float (down), neutral control stick, A, fastfall (down), resume dash (left/right), all done within a quarter of a second or so. At that rate, in the shield pressure he does, peak APM would be around 1,500!!

Holy crap.

This thread is awesome. And the post above me is just O_O

Wow, that must have been sooo tedious. Superb job, Jihnsius. With all those float-cancelled nairs, I honestly expected the APM to be higher. Then again, 214 is only a few off from Shiz', and right inline with Darkrain. Excellent job, very valuable data.


Statistical Summary:
Fox: One Entry. Average APM - 301. Max - 301 (Axe).*
Falco: One Entry. Average APM - 228. Max - 228 (DaShizWiz).
Peach: One Entry. Average APM - 214. Max - 214 (Pink Shinobi).
Falcon: Two Entries. Average APM - 197. Max - 214 (Darkrain). Min - 180 (Isai).

Total Entries - 5
Average APM - 227

* denotes potential outlier

Each submission so far supports exactly what would be expected - more technical characters and more technical players will produce a higher APM. Probably something in the order of Fox, Falco, Peach, IC, Falcon, etc.. We'd need an experienced IC player to take a shot at an IC video to get substantial results, due to their extreme difference in play.

I think I'll break down a Roy or Yoshi next, probably Sethlon and Eggz, as they're my secondaries. They'll be something nice to compare to for the many high tier characters that are sure to be analyzed in the near future.

First, thanks for the thread. I was always impressed by Melee's speed and sometimes hypothesized what kind of (per second) speed waveshining would yield. I hadn't heard of APM before, and now I'm intrigued what kind of sustainable, match-long input rates exist for Melee.

It will be interesting to see results for a less dominating Fox performance than Axe's ... I'm also interested in what a good Marth will generate. I always "feel" like Marth is "less technical" to handle than, say, Fox -- but this is pure speculation. Maybe I'll break one down.

Interesting data. I've never considered once that my fingers were actually moving that fast in Melee, so I guess now I have some encouragement to improve my APM in Starcraft. Granted it's really no contest that SC is a much more technically demanding game due to the sheer amount of multitasking that you need to do.

I don't think measuring peak APM is worth that much. A Fox multishining for a few seconds will record a peak APM ~1440 but a Samus performing a SWD has a "peak" APM of 18000 in moving the control stick between frames 41 and 42. I'm not saying that measuring peak APM is meaningless, but it's just another thing to take into consideration.

wow yeah i totally choked on the math on that one

crescentia said:

I don't think measuring peak APM is worth that much. A Fox multishining for a few seconds will record a peak APM ~1440 but a Samus performing a SWD has a "peak" APM of 18000 in moving the control stick between frames 41 and 42. I'm not saying that measuring peak APM is meaningless, but it's just another thing to take into consideration.

Click to expand...

That's one input per frame for only two frames, that's not really a generalized peak APM. Also, 1 input per frame would be 1x60FPSx60seconds=3600APM. I think it's interesting to know the APM for certain high-input strings, combo, or set of actions. Shield pressure is probably the highest amount of inputs per time for any character, and would set the high end for peak APM humanly possible for that character.

EDIT: The topic name needs to be updated for the Pink Shinobi addition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-sCulYfA9A

I tracked Ken’s actions (Marth). I gave credit for DI when either (a) it was obvious, or (b) when I was fairly sure given the timing that Ken would have DI’d. I gave him one action in each instance – this may be conservative, as he may have used both sticks.

As far as DI related to aerial placement, I only counted it if it was obvious.

There was one instance when Ken wiggled out of a tumble – I erred on the low side and gave him 2 actions for it.

In general, I used my judgment and credited what I thought was accurate.


Right
ff
Fair
l
Right
JC grab (2)
D-tilt (2)
j
Nair
ff
l
Right
JC grab (2)
Right
Left
j
Fair
ff
Fair
l
U-tilt (2)
j
Nair
ff
l
Left
Down
Grab
Side-B (5)
DI left
Fair
(Attempted) lc
Fair
L
U-tilt (2)
DI left
Fair
ff
l
dj
dodge right (2)
Up-B (2)
Ff


End of 1st stock @ 7:41 remaining
Actions during first stock = 53

Right
Ff
Fsmash
Grab
Cc
d-tilt (down already input from cc)
left
JC grab (2)
Roll right (2)
Grab
Tap a
U-throw
F-smash
Left
Shield
J
Fair
Ff
L
Left
JC grab (2)
Tap a
U-throw
J
Left
Fair
Fair
Ff
L
Left
J
Fair
Ff
Dair
Dj
Side-b (2)


End of 2nd stock @ 7:26 remaining
Actions during second stock = 40

Ff
Left
Grab
J
Nair
Ff
L
J
Dj
Left
Fair
Ff
Fair
L
Roll right (2)
Grab
Cc
d-tilt
right
side-b’s (3)
j
Nair
Ff
L
Grab
Tap a
U-throw
Right
u-tilt (2)
left
U-tilt (2)
Left
Dc
Fsmash
Grab
Tap a
U-throw
Right
Fsmash
Block
Roll
u-tilt (2)
left
dc
fsmash
DI right
Left
Down
Dair
Ff
L
Right
J
Nair
Ff
L
Fsmash
Down
d-tilt
a
shield
j
nair
l
left
fair
ff
l
left
right
JC grab (2)
Tap a
U-throw
Right
J
Fair
Ff
Dj
Bair (2)
L
Left
Ff
Stand up
Right
u-tilt (2)
grab
j
nair
ff
l
right
j
fair
ff
l
left
right
left
right
d-tilt (2)
side-b’s (4)
right
left
j
right
j
left
fair
WD (3)
Left
Right (turn only)
Right (dash)
J
Bair
Left
Fair
L
DI right
Fair
DI right
Wiggling out of tumble (2)
Ff
Fair
L
DI right
Left
Side-b
Side-b
Dj
Fair
Ff
Fsmash
WD (3)
Fsmash
DI right
Bair
Ff
L
Left
Ff
left
J
Dj
right
Nair
Ff
J
Right
Ff
Right
Tap a
d-tilt (2)
right
fsmash
left
j
nair
ff
l
sdodge
DI left
Side-b
Side-b
Side-b
Dj
Nair
Up-b (2)
Right
Dj
Dodge down (2)
Ff


End of 3rd stock @ 6:11 remaining
Actions during 3rd stock = 190


Ff
Right
Down
Ff
Left
Fair
L
Right
Left
Right
Left
Right
Jc grab (2)
Tap a
F-throw
Fsmash
f-tilt (2)
left
jc grab (2)
left
j
fair
ff
left
tap a
d tilt (2)
stand up
right
u-tilt (2)
right
j
nair
ff
l
right
left
j
fair
ff
l
WD (3)
J
Right
Ff
Left
J
Dj
Dodge down (2)
Right
Down
Shield
Grab
Tap a
u-throw
left
grab
tap a
u-throw
grab
tap a
u-throw
grab
tap a
u-throw
right
grab
tap a
u-throw
u-tilt
right
JC grab (2)
Tap a
u-throw
u-tilt
fsmash
left
ff
fair
l
down
fair
down
l
left (small step)
left (dash)
j
fair
ff
fair
dj
up-b (2)
left
dj
right
bair
l
left
down
right
left
fsmash
right
j
nair
ff
l
right
left
WD (3)
Left
J
Dj
Waveland (2)
Ff
Left
J
Nair
Right
Shield
Grab
Dj
Left
Side-b
Right
Dj
Left
Fair
Ff
Shield
Roll
Left
Right
Left
Right
Jc grab (2)
Tap a
u-throw
left
grab
tap a
u-throw
u-tilt
u-tilt
right
u-tilt (2)
left
shield
grab
tap a
u-throw
right
u-tilt (2)
left
fsmash
WD (3)
Tap a
Left
Tap a (dash attack)
DI right
Tech (in place)
Down
ff
Dair
L
Left
Fsmash
Left
Right
Fsmash
Down
d-tilt
WD (3)
Tap a
Shield
Grab
Roll right (2)
Tap a
Left
Shield
J
Fair
Ff
L
Left
Jc grab (2)
Shield
J
Right
Ff
Right
Left
Fsmash
Right


End of Game @ 5:00 remaining
Actions used during 4th stock = 216


Total match time = 3:00
Total actions = 499

APM = 166


Sort of confirms my thoughts about Marth as a character, although – as Jihnsius mentioned – part of it reflects Ken’s style. Smaller variables that may affect it include (a) the metagame, as it changes over time, and (b) the stage.

I actually think a bigger stage would push APM slightly higher in the case of Fox and Marth. My reasoning here is that, when on opposite sides of the stage, players’ idle time is often spent Shffl’ing or laser-spamming – these are high-APM activities. A smaller stage forces quicker entry into close combat, which will force more defensive time and therefore lower APM.

Off topic:

But does anyone else wonder why starcraft has such few mindgames as compared to smash?
Granted, its an rts, so a lot of it is just techxtbook (heh heh). Is it because the build orders allow such few things to happen? Or is it because every unit counts in a battle? Either way, I would say that their is a lack of "mindgames" in SC, mainly because when someone does pull off something that f*cks with the other guys head, it always comes up in a pimpest play video. Or, perhaps its because starcraft is adapting over time in order to have the right unit composition to out macro/micro your opponent
examples: Casy vs July (fake expansion lulz), shuttle/dropship distractions, fake zerg drops, fake techs

S.G. said:

Off topic:

But does anyone else wonder why starcraft has such few mindgames as compared to smash?
Granted, its an rts, so a lot of it is just techxtbook (heh heh). Is it because the build orders allow such few things to happen? Or is it because every unit counts in a battle? Either way, I would say that their is a lack of "mindgames" in SC, mainly because when someone does pull off something that f*cks with the other guys head, it always comes up in a pimpest play video. Or, perhaps its because starcraft is adapting over time in order to have the right unit composition to out macro/micro your opponent
examples: Casy vs July (fake expansion lulz), shuttle/dropship distractions, fake zerg drops, fake techs

Click to expand...

Watch the recent game of HoranG vs Nada. Horang Does some serious mindgames in that match...