Laijin
Smash Hero
Someone should do an APM on Vectorman's Yoshi.
I would love to see that
I would love to see that
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APM of Smashers. July Update - The Fastest Peach
- Thread starter RockCrock
- Start date
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
something i'd like to point out:
the apm of smashers seems to be on-par of SC:BW players, and marginally HIGHER than those of SC2:WoL players.
Take into count that GCN controllers have significantly less buttons than that of a keyboard/mouse combo.
I'm impressed.
the apm of smashers seems to be on-par of SC:BW players, and marginally HIGHER than those of SC2:WoL players.
Take into count that GCN controllers have significantly less buttons than that of a keyboard/mouse combo.
I'm impressed.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
the apm is way lower than that of SC:BW professionals
if you're talking lower-mid level SC players (maybe even high level toss) then they're about even maaaaybe advantage smash, but top level sc has apms no lower than 300, with julyzerg having a game of 717apm once
john!
Smash Hero
because i picked a match where vanz completely got off
Makura
Smash Rookie
SC2's APM for the pro's that I know of (Huk, TLO, Jinro, Idra, Select, etc.) is usually between 120-180 average (with burst APM of course being much higher). SC:BW had higher APM but I think how an action is measured needs to be put into account.
While not necessarily true for the highest level of play, frequently SC players mis-represent their APM for the purpose of looking skilled / bragging. Since an action is measured by simply selecting a unit or declaring any action, some players will often just hotkey 4-5 characters and just rapidly select them giving them the appearance of a higher APM. Others will rapidly set rally points with their base building each click counting as an action. Because of this, players can boast 300-400 APM easy with little to no effort behind the actions. I have found this to occur (at least in SC2) for bronze through diamond league.
This hardly is applicable to the community at large of course and the same can be said about melee with the unnecessary tech skill between stocks (although one could argue for simply practice).
I also feel like I have to point out (if it hasnt been stated already) the precision required for Melee actions given that there are only a few frames available to do most tech stuff.
Also how are actions measured (like does a wave dash count as 1 or 3 [jump + direction + air dodge]), from what it looks like on the front page its 3 but just for fun if you havent seen the Best Of Smash 13 : Reborn (Part 4) the fox (who I believe is Silent Wolf who may be an extreme example) does 54 actions within 10 seconds (measuring multiple "action" moves such as wavedash as a single action). Of course you would have to put in down time for when you are being attacked (although DI input i guess).
No point of this really just a brain dump...
While not necessarily true for the highest level of play, frequently SC players mis-represent their APM for the purpose of looking skilled / bragging. Since an action is measured by simply selecting a unit or declaring any action, some players will often just hotkey 4-5 characters and just rapidly select them giving them the appearance of a higher APM. Others will rapidly set rally points with their base building each click counting as an action. Because of this, players can boast 300-400 APM easy with little to no effort behind the actions. I have found this to occur (at least in SC2) for bronze through diamond league.
This hardly is applicable to the community at large of course and the same can be said about melee with the unnecessary tech skill between stocks (although one could argue for simply practice).
I also feel like I have to point out (if it hasnt been stated already) the precision required for Melee actions given that there are only a few frames available to do most tech stuff.
Also how are actions measured (like does a wave dash count as 1 or 3 [jump + direction + air dodge]), from what it looks like on the front page its 3 but just for fun if you havent seen the Best Of Smash 13 : Reborn (Part 4) the fox (who I believe is Silent Wolf who may be an extreme example) does 54 actions within 10 seconds (measuring multiple "action" moves such as wavedash as a single action). Of course you would have to put in down time for when you are being attacked (although DI input i guess).
No point of this really just a brain dump...
Signia
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,157
number of buttons has nothing to with it... you aren't using very much of the keys on the keyboard anyway, and even among those, most are rarely used. What most affects apm is how you define actions. Moving the mouse (analogous to the control stick) does not rack up actions like the control stick does. Moving the screen with the mouse and clicking the air doesn't count as an action and click and drag is counted as one action, while we see things like "jump back" counted as two. Of course, spamming actions is in both games, but in smash, every single movement is an action. A lot of button presses won't even show up in smash, come to think of it. They're so different you can't compare them.
The difference in the input device should have been enough to tell you that.
and I hope you weren't counting editted videos or exhibitions, that's just plain silly if you're sizing their numbers up with average apm of SC2 matches.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
why the **** would i compare techskill vids, etc with gameplay?
i used the figures gathered on the front page and compared them to the average apm of each sc game.
sc1 you're looking at 2~300 on average, with occasional spikes to anywhere between 4~700 in micro-intensive situations, and how well they're able to multi-task during that. With the exception of Sheik and Marth, every character covered had an average apm of at least 200, with Fox, Falco, and Peach being just under 300.
All of these figures are significantly higher than sc2wol where the average professional works off 110~180 APM, and korean professionals are in the lower 200s.
i used the figures gathered on the front page and compared them to the average apm of each sc game.
sc1 you're looking at 2~300 on average, with occasional spikes to anywhere between 4~700 in micro-intensive situations, and how well they're able to multi-task during that. With the exception of Sheik and Marth, every character covered had an average apm of at least 200, with Fox, Falco, and Peach being just under 300.
All of these figures are significantly higher than sc2wol where the average professional works off 110~180 APM, and korean professionals are in the lower 200s.
Laijin
Smash Hero
So if we had to rank SC1, 2 and melee in terms of average APM.
SC1(barely beats melee)
Melee
SC2
SC1(barely beats melee)
Melee
SC2
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
a) sc2 has been out for, like, 6 months. so sc2 pros cant hold a candle to sc:bw pros so let's just pretend it doesn't exist for a year or two.
b) saying that 300apm was good for a high level sc1 pro is absurd. flash and jaedong were both playing at 400apm in general and well over that when they had anything important to do. and if you ever found and watched an fpvod of either of them you would know that it's not because they're spamming. sure, they'll spam for the first few minutes. but after about 5 minutes into the game, they're playing so fast i can barely tell what they're even doing.
c) julyzerg hit 818apm, not 717, but i believe effort finally surpassed him about 2 years ago... i dont have the link though.
d) no one has bothered counting ssbm apm of random games, only of the super awesome ones, so the average we have is like 280apm or whatever amongst the most impressive games. if we counted random games it would be lower. maybe mango and m2k and armada are hitting 300+ apm but the rest of the top 10/20/etc are not, whereas the top 10/20 sc:bw players are all in the 300+ range.
b) saying that 300apm was good for a high level sc1 pro is absurd. flash and jaedong were both playing at 400apm in general and well over that when they had anything important to do. and if you ever found and watched an fpvod of either of them you would know that it's not because they're spamming. sure, they'll spam for the first few minutes. but after about 5 minutes into the game, they're playing so fast i can barely tell what they're even doing.
c) julyzerg hit 818apm, not 717, but i believe effort finally surpassed him about 2 years ago... i dont have the link though.
d) no one has bothered counting ssbm apm of random games, only of the super awesome ones, so the average we have is like 280apm or whatever amongst the most impressive games. if we counted random games it would be lower. maybe mango and m2k and armada are hitting 300+ apm but the rest of the top 10/20/etc are not, whereas the top 10/20 sc:bw players are all in the 300+ range.
battousai555
Smash Ace
What about MGPM (mind games per minute)?
Signia
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,157
Signia
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,157
Well you are comparing a couple of the TOP melee matches with the AVERAGE starcraft apm
And I already explained why one can't compare the two
Just saying being a SC player and a Melee player:
Low APM means you're terrible. High APM means you're being too hyper active instead of thinking throughly.
Having a APM in between the two pretty much indicates that you're being aware enough but also thinking about what's going on. Honestly that's what matters most. Not how many actions you can perform. But how you perform those actions and the outcome being in your favor.
But of course if you're super pro high APM is a good indicator of skill.
My main point here. APM doesn't mean much in a real match.
Starcraftwise: I've beaten players who's APM exceeded my own APM by a good 40 - 50 points. Yopu just have to know what to produce and keep track of how you're spending and out mirco the opponent while macroing.
Meleewise: Mindgames beats techskill. Techskill is pretty and all but a walking Samus can easily take out a hyper active Fox/Falco.
Low APM means you're terrible. High APM means you're being too hyper active instead of thinking throughly.
Having a APM in between the two pretty much indicates that you're being aware enough but also thinking about what's going on. Honestly that's what matters most. Not how many actions you can perform. But how you perform those actions and the outcome being in your favor.
But of course if you're super pro high APM is a good indicator of skill.
My main point here. APM doesn't mean much in a real match.
Starcraftwise: I've beaten players who's APM exceeded my own APM by a good 40 - 50 points. Yopu just have to know what to produce and keep track of how you're spending and out mirco the opponent while macroing.
Meleewise: Mindgames beats techskill. Techskill is pretty and all but a walking Samus can easily take out a hyper active Fox/Falco.
818 was his peak APM he didn't consistently have that APM.
His average was like high 400s iirc.
Or something retardedly high.
His average was like high 400s iirc.
Or something retardedly high.
PB&J
Smash Hero
i bet my apm will be higher than most players..
rock crock- if u can test it out on me this weekend that would be great and good info for me
rock crock- if u can test it out on me this weekend that would be great and good info for me
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
Dark (fox) vs GhOST(cfalc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr4q9RbUzck
Jump: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111(46)
Aerial: 111111111111111111111111111111111111 (36)
Fast Fall: l 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 (49)
L cancel: l111111111111111111111111111111 (31)
Dash: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 (85)
Laser: 111111111111111111111111111 (27)
Shield: 11111111111 (11)
Wavedash: 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 42*3=(126)
Jab:111111111111111111 (18)
Shine:111111111111111111111111111111111111 36*2=(72)
Grab:1111 (4)
Throw:1111 (4)
Turn in shine: 111111111111 (12)
Roll from edge: 11 (2)
Fall thru platform: 11 (2)
Crouch: 11111111 (8)
Tech: 11111 (5)
Roll/getup from flub tech: 11 (2)
Roll: 111 (3)
FSmash:1 (1)
Jumpcanceled usmash: 1 (2)
Ledgehop: 111 (3)
Firefox:1111 (8)
Aim firefox: 11 (2)
Turn around laser: 11 (4)
Getup-attack:1 (1)
Side+B:11 (4)
Jump from ledge option: 1 (1)
Total actions: 569
569 / 1.8 = 316.1 APM
I counted spotdodges as crouch+shield, and sometimes he would jump right under a platform, shine, turn around, and waveland off the edge facing the other way. The jump from shine below platform + waveland I counted as 1 wavedash. There were also instances where he would full hop a bair. Though it autocancels, I assumed he still pressed L-cancel. Drops from ledge (like to shine spike) were counted as fastfalls. There was also a messed up wavedash on a platform where he airdodges, but I counted that as a wavedash as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr4q9RbUzck
Jump: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111(46)
Aerial: 111111111111111111111111111111111111 (36)
Fast Fall: l 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 (49)
L cancel: l111111111111111111111111111111 (31)
Dash: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 (85)
Laser: 111111111111111111111111111 (27)
Shield: 11111111111 (11)
Wavedash: 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 42*3=(126)
Jab:111111111111111111 (18)
Shine:111111111111111111111111111111111111 36*2=(72)
Grab:1111 (4)
Throw:1111 (4)
Turn in shine: 111111111111 (12)
Roll from edge: 11 (2)
Fall thru platform: 11 (2)
Crouch: 11111111 (8)
Tech: 11111 (5)
Roll/getup from flub tech: 11 (2)
Roll: 111 (3)
FSmash:1 (1)
Jumpcanceled usmash: 1 (2)
Ledgehop: 111 (3)
Firefox:1111 (8)
Aim firefox: 11 (2)
Turn around laser: 11 (4)
Getup-attack:1 (1)
Side+B:11 (4)
Jump from ledge option: 1 (1)
Total actions: 569
569 / 1.8 = 316.1 APM
I counted spotdodges as crouch+shield, and sometimes he would jump right under a platform, shine, turn around, and waveland off the edge facing the other way. The jump from shine below platform + waveland I counted as 1 wavedash. There were also instances where he would full hop a bair. Though it autocancels, I assumed he still pressed L-cancel. Drops from ledge (like to shine spike) were counted as fastfalls. There was also a messed up wavedash on a platform where he airdodges, but I counted that as a wavedash as well.
PB&J
Smash Hero
go watch these matches of me and soft and tell me what u get
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k00-7mxiyUY
or this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPO0n0nWnpc
thanks in advanced
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
Who has the lowest APM?
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
RockCrock
Smash Champion
Evan, I tabulated the first match from the first video that you linked. Your Fox vs. Soft's Falco on Yoshi's story.
522 Actions
144 second match
522 / 2.4 =
218 APM
PB&J (Fox) vs. Soft (Falco) Yoshi's Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k00-7mxiyUY
Dash Left
Ff
Dash Left
Jump
Uair
Ff
l-can
shine
jump right
dash right
jump
turn left
grab
up throw
jump uair
ff
l-can
shine
jump
bair
l-can
drop
jump
uair
l-can
jab
shine
jump
drill
l-can
shine
wavedash right
right
shine
jump left
bair
l-can
dash left
shine
jump
ff
bair
l-can
shine
jump
f-smash
shine
jump
f-smash
ledge-jump
shine
jump
bair
stand
walk right
f-tilt
walk right
turn left
jump right
shine
jump
bair
walk left
turn right
f-smash
shine
jump left
dash left
dash right
dash left
jump
nair
l-cancel
shield
roll right
turn right
jump
bair
l-can
jab
jab
jump
dair
l-can
shine
wavedash right
jab
dash left
dash right
tech
u-smash
left
ff
walk left
moonwalk left (3)
wavedash left
shine
wavedash left
dash left
wavedash right
dash right
dash left
dash right
dash left
wavedash left
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump
airdodge
left turn
crouch
left
dash right
dash left
wavedash right
turn right
jump
laser
ff
dash right
dash left
jump
dair
l-can
crouch
shine
jump
uair
ff
l-can
jump
uair
ledge drop
shine
jump
dair
shine
jump
ff
dash left
shine
u-smash
dash left
jump
nair
jump
up-b right
ledge drop
jump left
shine
up-b right
crouch
right
dash right
jump
shine
jump
airdodge left
left
dash right
shine
jump
dash left
jump
jump
jump
shine
jump
bair
dash right
shine
jump left
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump left
dair
l-can
dash left
bair
l-can
dash left
dash right
jump
nair
ff
l-can
jump
bair
l-can
shine
shield
spot dodge
shine
jump
roll left
jump
wavedash down
shine
dash right
shine
left right
dash right
shine
u-smash
dash
jump
bair
jump
side-b left
up-b up and left
jump right
walk right
crouch
jump left
jump
shine
jump
ff
dash left
dash right
dash left
shield
roll left
shine
jump left
bair
right
side-b left
ledge drop
jump
shine
jump
dair
l-can
grab
back throw
dash right
jump
EAT HARDCORE DOWNAIR
Drop
Dash right
Jump
Side-b left
Shine
Jump right
u-smash
jump
air-dodge
walk right
dash right
dash left
dash right
dash left
jump
tech
shine
jump
stand
jump
side-b left
ledge drop
jump
shield
roll right
shine
jump
dash right
dash left
shield
grab
shield
jump
stand
shield
spot dodge
shine
jump
dair
l-can
walk right
jump
ff
dair
l-can
dash right
dash left
shield
shield
roll left
dash left
dash right
jump
nair
l-can
shine
jump
bair
l-can
dash attack left
shield
jab
shine
wavedash right
u-smash
jab
ff
dash right
crouch
jump
ff
jump
shine
jump
uair
ff
l-can
dash right
jump
bair
l-can
left
dash left
jump
jump
air dodge up
left
u-smash
shield
down
shine
wavedash right
jab
f-smash
shine
jump
bair
ff
l-can
wavedash right
f-smash
ledge jump
left
bair
l-can
jab
down-tilt
dash left
jump
nair
ff
l-can
dash left
shine
jump right
ledge drop
jump right
nair
f-smash
jump
up-b right
up-b right
drop
dash right
shine
jump left
crouch
u-smash
dash right
shine
jump left
drop
shine
jump left
bair
ff
l-can
walk left
jump right
bair
l-can
drop through
shine
jump left
u-smash
dash left
dash right
dash left
wavedash left
Assume DI on 33 hits received
522 Actions
144 second match
522 / 2.4
218 APM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k00-7mxiyUY
Dash Left
Ff
Dash Left
Jump
Uair
Ff
l-can
shine
jump right
dash right
jump
turn left
grab
up throw
jump uair
ff
l-can
shine
jump
bair
l-can
drop
jump
uair
l-can
jab
shine
jump
drill
l-can
shine
wavedash right
right
shine
jump left
bair
l-can
dash left
shine
jump
ff
bair
l-can
shine
jump
f-smash
shine
jump
f-smash
ledge-jump
shine
jump
bair
stand
walk right
f-tilt
walk right
turn left
jump right
shine
jump
bair
walk left
turn right
f-smash
shine
jump left
dash left
dash right
dash left
jump
nair
l-cancel
shield
roll right
turn right
jump
bair
l-can
jab
jab
jump
dair
l-can
shine
wavedash right
jab
dash left
dash right
tech
u-smash
left
ff
walk left
moonwalk left (3)
wavedash left
shine
wavedash left
dash left
wavedash right
dash right
dash left
dash right
dash left
wavedash left
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump
airdodge
left turn
crouch
left
dash right
dash left
wavedash right
turn right
jump
laser
ff
dash right
dash left
jump
dair
l-can
crouch
shine
jump
uair
ff
l-can
jump
uair
ledge drop
shine
jump
dair
shine
jump
ff
dash left
shine
u-smash
dash left
jump
nair
jump
up-b right
ledge drop
jump left
shine
up-b right
crouch
right
dash right
jump
shine
jump
airdodge left
left
dash right
shine
jump
dash left
jump
jump
jump
shine
jump
bair
dash right
shine
jump left
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump
dash left
dash right
jump
shine
jump left
dair
l-can
dash left
bair
l-can
dash left
dash right
jump
nair
ff
l-can
jump
bair
l-can
shine
shield
spot dodge
shine
jump
roll left
jump
wavedash down
shine
dash right
shine
left right
dash right
shine
u-smash
dash
jump
bair
jump
side-b left
up-b up and left
jump right
walk right
crouch
jump left
jump
shine
jump
ff
dash left
dash right
dash left
shield
roll left
shine
jump left
bair
right
side-b left
ledge drop
jump
shine
jump
dair
l-can
grab
back throw
dash right
jump
EAT HARDCORE DOWNAIR
Drop
Dash right
Jump
Side-b left
Shine
Jump right
u-smash
jump
air-dodge
walk right
dash right
dash left
dash right
dash left
jump
tech
shine
jump
stand
jump
side-b left
ledge drop
jump
shield
roll right
shine
jump
dash right
dash left
shield
grab
shield
jump
stand
shield
spot dodge
shine
jump
dair
l-can
walk right
jump
ff
dair
l-can
dash right
dash left
shield
shield
roll left
dash left
dash right
jump
nair
l-can
shine
jump
bair
l-can
dash attack left
shield
jab
shine
wavedash right
u-smash
jab
ff
dash right
crouch
jump
ff
jump
shine
jump
uair
ff
l-can
dash right
jump
bair
l-can
left
dash left
jump
jump
air dodge up
left
u-smash
shield
down
shine
wavedash right
jab
f-smash
shine
jump
bair
ff
l-can
wavedash right
f-smash
ledge jump
left
bair
l-can
jab
down-tilt
dash left
jump
nair
ff
l-can
dash left
shine
jump right
ledge drop
jump right
nair
f-smash
jump
up-b right
up-b right
drop
dash right
shine
jump left
crouch
u-smash
dash right
shine
jump left
drop
shine
jump left
bair
ff
l-can
walk left
jump right
bair
l-can
drop through
shine
jump left
u-smash
dash left
dash right
dash left
wavedash left
Assume DI on 33 hits received
522 Actions
144 second match
522 / 2.4
218 APM
522 Actions
144 second match
522 / 2.4 =
218 APM
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Just a quick note on Starcraft (especially 2) APM:
A lot of APM output in Starcraft is not meaningful. By that I mean spamming at the beginning of the match, clicking 20 times for a single move command, stuff like that. The Starcraft community gets a boner for having a high APM, so APM boosting is super common. I think in Smash almost all of your actions are meaningful, barring between stocks (which doesn't account for much, honestly).
A lot of APM output in Starcraft is not meaningful. By that I mean spamming at the beginning of the match, clicking 20 times for a single move command, stuff like that. The Starcraft community gets a boner for having a high APM, so APM boosting is super common. I think in Smash almost all of your actions are meaningful, barring between stocks (which doesn't account for much, honestly).
Luma
Smash Lord
well most people (like me) just click around in the beginning cuz there is nothing else to do and later on you will need that speed and even more, so why not start with a nice apm?
same with ssbm, if you got some times between 2 stocks most people do silly techskill stuff (or atleast try ^^)
same with ssbm, if you got some times between 2 stocks most people do silly techskill stuff (or atleast try ^^)
PB&J
Smash Hero
thanks dennis..my favorite part was EAT HARDCORE DOWN AIR.lol
i need to get my apm higher...dennis teach me how to dash dance like you
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
Dennis brings his controller to class and practices sprintcheating under his desk.
Hazygoose
Smash Lord
i am so glad this thread still exists. so i suck for totally bailing on it early but RL got in the way. thanksgiving break is coming up and i'll be stuck on campus so i'll finally get around to getting some data for some low tiers :D
good **** with the thread, rockcrock. smash theory never gets milder, only way too specific (in a good way)
good **** with the thread, rockcrock. smash theory never gets milder, only way too specific (in a good way)