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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

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jiovanni007

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Marth never seem like a much too hard to me as well.. in Brawl, though I hate to be picky with stages with him. And I guess a lot of people forgot to look at the stage discussion thread, unless it's utterly useless and I have to redo the whole thing. So far the awful stages to take Marth is Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, and Halberd. Best stage to take Marth is Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, and Luigi's Mansion.
Sad thing about this is that in some conservative areas (i.e. Louisiana) a lot of the "normal" CPs are banned. We all know Marth ***** Kirby on the neutrals and our CP list is pretty bland. I find PS1 isn't bad, probably not too much in our favor but definitely shouldn't be ignored. Mostly johning in my part since whenever ppl play me in my area they ban RC since I'm the only Kirby player and I tend to CP PS1.
 

Ladybug

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I'd definitely choose JJ if RC is banned. There are a lot of opportunities for Kirby on that stage that Marth can't handle.
 

Percon

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Dunno.

This is in Marth's favor, but not by too much. He has a good spacing game vs us but his finishers are mostly easy to see coming and pretty punishable if missed. His usmash is the best... though the best marths kill with tipped air moves, and that's tough to get around.

One thing I don't think I/we have an immediate solution for is dancing blade. It usually shield stabs me before it ends and I don't see an opportunity to punish in the middle of it. Tips anyone?

I find Final is great because if you can feign him into a dolphin slash you can punish with pretty much anything. Hammer all dai. Also , platforms aren't the best when fighting him - he can use them better than we can.

Best stages to worst stages against Marth

Pictochat (<3), Final, Japes, Smashville/Yoshi's, Halberd/PS1, BF, Lylat

I know there are more courses but I have the most experience on those (vs marth especially)
 

thrillagorilla

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So...I hear matchup discussion is dead. Rediscussion later...?

Genesis is this week A1. I don't think we are going to get too much discussion no matter who we pick. We can wait a bit longer. Also, did you post in their MU/social thread to let them know we are talking about the MU? I didn't see anything posted...
 

A1lion835

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He has a good spacing game vs us but his finishers are mostly easy to see coming and pretty punishable if missed. His usmash is the best... though the best marths kill with tipped air moves, and that's tough to get around.
But what can we do about marth just plain outranging us?


Genesis is this week A1. I don't think we are going to get too much discussion no matter who we pick. We can wait a bit longer. Also, did you post in their MU/social thread to let them know we are talking about the MU? I didn't see anything posted...
Yea, but there are SOME people here...meh, w/e. Yes, but in their matchup rediscussion thing for IC's. Their normal matchup thread looked like it was dying, probably because of the seperate rediscussion threads.
 

thrillagorilla

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Yea, but there are SOME people here...meh, w/e. Yes, but in their matchup rediscussion thing for IC's. Their normal matchup thread looked like it was dying, probably because of the seperate rediscussion threads.

See posting in their social thread. Its the most active thread on the boards. If they don't notice it there, then you know they are ignoring us. Top it off with the fact that people DO look at their MU thread and I think we can attribute your lack of posting there to laziness. ;)
 

~Shao~

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WARNING: huge wall of text ahead

Kirby

Pros:
-Great air and grab game
-Great gimping ability
-Small, so Marth has a hard time landing tippers
-Five jumps, which allows him to air camp and wait until the opponet makes a mistake and punish
-Good recovery
-Good ground and bait 'n punish game
-Good OoS options (f-tilt, u-tilt, b-air, f-air)

Cons:
-Lightweight, which means tipper smashes are lethal
-Predictable recovery, meaning Kirby can be edgehoged/spiked
-Smashes are really punishable if missed
-Unreliable projectile and special moves
-Slow aerial mobility
-Lack of approaching options

Marth

Pros:
-Great aerial and ground game
-Great range and zoning/spacing
-Awesome punishing moves (dancing blade and up-b OoS)
-Great frame trap (d-tilt)
-Racks damage really fast
-Good aerial and ground mobility

Cons:
-Relatively light
-No projectile
-Predictable recovery
-Almost no horizontal recovery
-Realies heavily on spacing/zoning
-Lack of killpower

Now, for the match-up itself.

Marth straight out beats Kirby ground game, we can't compete with his range on the ground. And his f-tilt alone can shut down all of our aerial approaches, however, it's not that reliable, considering Marth's f-tilt is slow-ish in the start and lag-ish in the end. This means we CAN approach with b-air, considering it's a little bit faster than his f-tilt, however, it has to be perfectly spaced. If spaced corretly, I believe he can only punish us if he powershields. If you have to approach through the air, the best way is spaced full hopped b-airs until his shield gets low enough to get shield stabbed, or air camp until he gets impacient and makes a mistake.

Now, considering our aerial approach gets limited, our best bet is the grounded approach. Since dash attack is only realiable when mixing up and against spotdodgers, we are left with only running shield grab. This leads to grab combos, and we <3 grab combos. Marth can up-b out of the f-throw combo. If you predict this, airdodge and regrab/punish accordingly. The best option after a grab would be d-throw, this leads to u-tilt juggle and if he attacks/airdodge to the ground, regrab, d-throw, rinse and repeat. Unfortunately, if you approach this way, and don't powershield, a perfectly spaced d-tilt from Marth sets up his frame trap. If you try to roll behind him, you'll either get: A)a d-tilt to the face if you fail to roll behind or B)a dancing blade to the face if you succesfully roll behind him because of d-tilt's IASA frames. If you stay in place shielding, you'll eventually get shield stabbed, if you spotdodge, you also get hit. The only way out is rolling away.

So we've established that Kirby approaching Marth it's not a great idea. It's ok, because most Marth's are aggressive, which means he's going to be doing all the approaching. In this case, that's a good thing. Since Kirby's got a great bait 'n punish game and good OoS options, and of course the fact that they have no projectile whatsoever, and we do (granted, a really ****y one), this match-up is best played defensive.

Most Marth's approach with a f-air barrage, mixing up sh f-airs with sh double f-airs. Just shield/powershield and punish accordingly. Poorly spaced f-airs, punish with f-tilt and d-tilt, perfect spaced with b-air or f-air, and not spaced at all with u-tilt and grab. If you get hit by a f-air at low percents, expect to get hit by dancing blade or another f-air. It's uncommon to see him approaching through the ground, but if he does, expect a dancing blade. When a complete dancing blade is shielded, it's almost certain we'll be able to punish with a tilt, a grab or an aerial.

Get him in the air. Once you get him in the air, keep him there, that's where we want him to be. Even though his aerials have more range than ours, our air game is better, so abuse this. His f-air outranges our b-air only by a bit, so once you get a chance, **** him in the air. You want to be a little bit underneath him, so you can hit him with a u-air and f-air/b-air. But you NEVER want to be above him. Marth is a great at juggle traps, and our d-air has so much start up it's almost useless. Almost. If you hit with a d-air, you'll probably get a grab of, or at least a f-tilt.

Once you get him offstage, **** him there too. Make them waste their 2nd jump, force an up-b. Even if he gets back, more % on him is never a bad thing. But good Marths will aways recover low, using their jump only close to the stage and only when necessary. So watch out when going for a d-air or a b-air stage spike, or you may end getting up-b'd and you'll be the one getting *****. Stone can catch them off guard here.

When you are the one getting back, he can harass you too. Watch out for tipped f-airs and b-airs, they kill at relatively low % when offstage. And don't recover too low or you'll get edgehoged or spiked, that's never a good thing. Be careful when trying to kirbycide, he's got more range than you. Also, kirbycides can backfire hard. REALLY...hard.

Now, you're stuck at a ledge. Marth can make this really hard for us to get back onstage because of his d-tilt. If he is the one stuck on the ledge, there's not much we can do to stop him from coming back onstage.

Marth has a tough time landing his kill moves, since we are a small target, and his smashes won't kill until higher % if not tipper'd, and they have no guaranteed setup. If you see a Marth walking away, he's probably spacing a f-smash. Kirby, on the other hand, has a setup for his kill moves, the d-tilt trip. D-tilt trip>f-smash and d-tilt trip>u-smash. Aerial hammer if you bait airdodges. B-air kills nicely too if not stale. And of course, gimps.

When chossing stages, avoid the platform heavy ones, because even though we can use them to our favor, Marth has an easier time doing it, and he does it way better than us. They also protect him from our aircamping. You are better off with flat stages and the moving/changing ones.

About the rating, I really don't know. It's probably a little bit in Marth's favor or maybe even (between 50-50 and 40-60) if the Marth has an aggressive playstyle, and a solid advantage to Marth (between 40-60 and 30-70) if the Marth has a defensive playstyle, because he can shut us down entirely if we try approaching him, and by the time we get inside, he has already racked up a lot of damage on us.
________________________


I don't know if I left anything out, I'm too lazy to read all this wall of text again ;X Hope it helps.
 

Ladybug

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About the rating, I really don't know. It's probably a little bit in Marth's favor or maybe even (between 50-50 and 40-60) if the Marth has an aggressive playstyle, and a solid advantage to Marth (between 40-60 and 30-70) if the Marth has a defensive playstyle, because he can shut us down entirely if we try approaching him, and by the time we get inside, he has already racked up a lot of damage on us.
________________________


I don't know if I left anything out, I'm too lazy to read all this wall of text again ;X Hope it helps.

You didn't. That was actually pretty much everything. :p Anything you didn't say was covered by everyone else.

With this last statement though, I would put Marth/Kirby = 60/40 just because it's not impossible, with either style played by Marth, but it certainly isn't easy. 65/35 is just too low and 55/45 is too high.

(Whoops, deleted the beginning quote. XD)
 

Triple R

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I hope people realize that you don't have to air dodge if you predict an upb after you attempt fthrow combo, you can just back off. It's not close enough to hit you if you back off right away.

Also, i think someone asked before about countering dancing blades. I'm not sure if it matters what directions he uses, but I'm pretty sure you can grab him in between if you shield the first hit. I think trying to grab after the second hit is the best, just guessing, so don't quote me on that.

I think the main thing to know is when they will upb you. They can upb you after our getup attack, often deadly. Yeah someone said inbetween dash attack already. Going for a dair to grab can get us an upb in the face. Asdioh already has video proof of him getting upbed while ledge stalling with cutter. Those are the main ones i can think of. Sometimes they'll do it if you are really aggressive and in their face and they just want room.
 

~Shao~

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Straked said:
Just because he's small doesn't mean he can avoid tippers so easily.
I know we can't avoid tippers so easily, it's just that it isn't as much of a problem than if you were like, Bowser. You will get tipper'd, but not as much. Marth has to work harder on his spacing in order to tip us reliably.

Straked said:
They both equal the same number.
I think Ladybug meant the match-up isn't lower than 35/65 and isn't higher than 45/55.
 

Percon

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But what can we do about marth just plain outranging us?
Fake him out... really, it's all you can do, but the reward you get for successfully getting past his defenses is usually high. He's easy to put in a bad position.

Though, running shield is super underrated.

I pretty much agree with that list, but add in Rainbow Cruise:p. What's so bad about PS1? And I don't think he's THAT good on Lylat.
PS1 wasn't nearly as good as I thought. To get people into a bad position there, you need them to go down/follow you down/ chase them downward. It's a really important to get them to fall where you want them to. I find this is hard vs marth because he's always going up and away with his air moves and never likes to close in; it's easy to get him in a bad position, but not necessarily the bad position you're looking for, if that makes any sense. He can also escape wall combos/infinites with his upB. He can use the windmill as well as you, I find. Sorry if all of that was confusing.

On the plus side, the edges aren't good for him.

I don't have a lot of RC experience... :/

Lylat IMO is the trickiest to beat him on. It's hard to get to the ground there if he's controlling the stage. Also, unlike battlefield, he can hit any platform from the ground/a shorthop. It may be different for you but that's what I think.
 

PhantomX

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I will attest to Percon's talk of running shield. Wario also has issues with his range and spacing and running shield is one of my prime choices vs Marth.
 

Tomato Kirby

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With all this talk about running shields, how about Marth doing a running shield-->Dolphin Slash?

I thought Dolphin Slash was a kill move, although I have not seen any indication about this.
 

Lord Viper

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Only Diddy Kong main I Brawled was Sauce Boss and AZ, I didn't play them enough to help with the match up. Sorry. >.<
 

A1lion835

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Partially because we're discussing diddy on their boards and partially because thrilla posted asking about the matchup, we're discussing donkey kong!

*sigh*...no advantage matchups yet...

Edit: did we say kirby vs falco was 60:40, or 55:45? I'm putting 60:40 until someone more involved in the discussion than I contradicts me...
 

thrillagorilla

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Partially because we're discussing diddy on their boards and partially because thrilla posted asking about the matchup, we're discussing donkey kong!

*sigh*...no advantage matchups yet...

Edit: did we say kirby vs falco was 60:40, or 55:45? I'm putting 60:40 until someone more involved in the discussion than I contradicts me...

Its one of those two, A1. It was a bit too hotly contested and I don't think there was any conclusion. 55-45 is safe, but most of the people here (not me) think its 60-40 so idk.

DK? DK! Yay! :) I'll do a write up later, cause I'm not in the mood for writing a small essay atm. I'm also currious what the other DK and Kirby players think.
 

Lord Viper

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More like don't get hit by his Smash Attacks, just about all of them can kill Kirby around 80% on the middle of Final Destination. Yea, that's no fun at all Brawling Donkey Kong. >.>
 

T-nuts

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I'd say 45:55 or 40:60. The problem is that kirby and dk are similar: you both try to hit people with your feet (though dk mixes in his hands too). But dk has bigger feet and recognizable legs.
hahaha easily the funniest matchup summary ive ever seen, good **** a1
 

thrillagorilla

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I'd say 45:55 or 40:60. The problem is that kirby and dk are similar: you both try to hit people with your feet (though dk mixes in his hands too). But dk has bigger feet and recognizable legs.
Best. Match-up. Summary. Ever.

On a more serious note, I don't think its 40-60, A1. I could go for 45-55 though. DK has some of the traits Kirby loves best in an MU and some of the traits Kirby hates most. What you just mentioned is one of the bad ones.
 

KillaFrmNY

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Just my two cents on how i would play this matchup. *Is not very good*

Dk beats Kirby on the ground with with his range, spacing and power. Just don't approach him unless it's to punish. Although kirby can do that Gonzo combo for a easy 25-30% in the beginning of every stock, Dk can pretty much get that back in 2-4 hits. Utilt locks are also amazing for the beginning of a stock.



I personally wouldn't DownB much because of how much Kirby SH's. Ftilt, Utilt and Jabs would probably be my main ground attacks.


It's probably going to be a battle of the Bairs in the air.

That's all i can mustard out.
 

thrillagorilla

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Eh, never-mind. I'll do a write-up now rather than later. Since this is on the Kirby Boards, I'll write it from the perspective of a Kirby player. I’m borrowing and slightly altering t1mmy’s format because it works really well. Hope you don’t mind, t1mmy! :)

I apologize in advance if I missed something. Please point it out if I did. Also, I won’t talk about stages until Viper wants to discuss DK in the stage thread.



Kirby vs. Donkey Kong

DK has traits that Kirbys love (big target, combos fairly easy, has a blind spot below him and in front of him in the air) as well as traits that Kirbys hate (REALLY hard to kill without a gimp, most of his spacing tools are far superior to Kirby's, kills Kirby at ridiculously early percents). The Match-up is full of extremes and lacks common ground, so whoever has the match's momentum in their favor tends to do the best, no matter what tools either side has. Also, out of all of Kirby’s Match-ups this one is the poster child for the phrase “don’t get hit!”

Long range

This range will very likely not happen much in this match-up unless one of the two characters has been sent flying, and after that it will be straight back to mid or close range. DK has no projectile to force an approach from Kirby, but if the Kirby decides to use final cutter they should be aware that DK is one of the most mobile characters in the game (his movement is close to on par with Marth's minus air acceleration and plus a faster Fast-Fall speed) and can close the distance easily to punish. The Kirby can throw it out every once in a blue moon if they can ledge cancel it or use platform mind-games, but in general shouldn't use it. DK can punish HARD for any mistakes.

Even though it isn't a projectile per-say, I'll mention DK's down-b here. The range on this move is about a DK d-tilt length behind him and about 2 d-tilt lengths (!) in front of him. The Kirby player should never assume they are safe on the ground in general proximity of DK. DK can use down-b to pop Kirby into the air for follow-ups at long range, punish spot-dodges and rolls or use it to get Kirby off of him at close range if used correctly. The only saving graces for Kirby with this move are that it doesn't hit anything airborne and is very punishable by things like giant swing if Kirby is in the air before the move hits.

Mid Range

This is going to be where DK is going to try and keep Kirby for a majority of the game. DK's moves in general have a bit of ending lag and are on the linear side, but that won't make them easy to get around. DK's f-tilt out-ranges almost all of Metaknight's move-set to give you an idea. The key here is for the Kirby player to try and vary their responses to his approaches and try to punish anything missed with a grab or combo starting move like u-tilt or in some cases d-tilt. The f-tilt->u-air combo only works through the u-air if DK DI's correctly, but it still puts him in a defensive position without any combo breaker to speak of (he has a few tricks, and I'll get to those later). D-throw also puts him in a bad position due to his weakness to quick attacks from below in the air.

Its easy to say on paper, but in reality its much harder to do. If the DK spaces correctly he can keep Kirby at bay for a long time. F-tilt can be aimed at either an up or down angle and has monster range and comes out pretty quickly (8 frames up close, 9 at the full distance of the move), d-tilt is fast (6 frames close, 7 frames at full distance) and has little ending lag (though it can't be aimed so it is more limited in application than f-tilt), and reverse u-tilt can knock Kirby away if he tries to close in from above. Whats more is that it only takes getting hit around ten times or so with tilts to be put into KO range. At the end of the day, the Kirby player will need to outsmart the DK to get in. Shield-grabs, running spot dodges and low flying aerial antics can do the trick as long as the Kirby isn't predictable about it.

Another thing to be aware of is that most of DK's kill moves are used around this range as well. A fresh f-smash and u-smash can kill around 80%, with d-smash not far behind around 95% (with decent DI and momentum canceling. Without it, it probably closer to 70% and 85% respectively). All of them come out relatively fast for their power. Giant punch also kills at a low percent (just a bit lower than f-smash), with a 9-wind killing around 60% (!) unless the Kirby has really (and I mean REALLY) good DI and momentum canceling. If you don’t DI and momentum cancel, a fresh 9-wind can kill under 50%.

Close Range

This is generally where Kirby wants to be. DK's tools become much more limited at this range, with his standing grab being 8 frames and his jab (tied for his fastest move) being 5 frames. Kirby's grabs allow for follow-ups because of this, and he can put the hurt on DK at lower percents. This is also the general range Kirby needs to be in to score an outright KO, seeing how even Kirby's f-smash is out-ranged by most of DK's moves.

DK isn't completely defenseless at this range however. Though it doesn't hold a candle to his other moves range-wise, DK's jab still has decent range on it and can disrupt a lot of Kirby's attempts to close the distance. DK's d-tilt and u-tilt come out on frame 6 and 5 respectively at close range as well, so even though Kirby out-speeds DK at this range, it isn't by too much. DK also has his grounded up-b and fully charged Giant Punch at this range, and here is where DK's greatest counterattacks come into play. Up-b is slow to come out (first hit-box is on frame 19) and doesn't have much range to it (comparatively), but it has SA on it from frames 10-16. With those frames DK can over-ride just about any attack Kirby can throw at him. The giant punch has similar properties, with the first hit-box on frame 18 but SA frames on 17-20. Both of these move can deal out ~30% damage (less on the up-b with SDI, but Kirby has to be quick about it) and the Giant Punch can kill. Even if the moves don't do full damage, they will reset the positions to DK's advantage again. If the DK player is any good at timing the SA frames, the Kirby player will be vocally cursing the programmer that created them.

Another thing to be aware of is DK's grab game. His grab is slow, but has great range on it (just a tad less than DeDeDe's) and he can put Kirby on his back and cargo carry him around until he breaks out. The cargo tosses can put Kirby in bad positions too, anything ranging from straight up for u-air follow-ups to just off the edge for a quick dair spike. The regular throws aren't bad either, with the back throw and d-throw putting some distance between the characters and resetting DK's spacing game.

Air

This is the most polarizing part of this MU. Either Kirby is at a distinct advantage or disadvantage here, never in between. DK’s bair is one of the best bairs in the game. It has more range than anything Kirby has in the air save for final cutter, comes out fast (on frame 7) and can kill at decent percents if fresh (~120% at long distance, lower if near the blast-line and since DK can’t use it to approach Kirby because of Kirby’s short height, its much more likely that it will be fresh). DK’s u-air is also good, coming out a bit faster than bair (frame 6 just behind DK's head), when fresh killing around 100% (again, lower if near the blast-line) and covering a good portion of DK’s upper body in the process. If Kirby is either behind DK or above him in the air, DK will most likely win out.

If Kirby is in front of or below DK in the air, its an entirely different matter. DK’s dair is the third (second?) most powerful spike in the game, but it doesn’t come out until frame 18, which is more than enough time to capitalize. The move also has a lot of ending lag, so Kirby can bait the attack and then punish with a grab, tilt, or well timed smash even. In front of DK is a bit more complicated, but still a weak point. DK’s options are nair (first hit is on frame 10, but the hit-box is very specific and hard to connect with) fair (first hit is on frame 25, which is WAY more time than Kirby needs to capitalize) Giant punch (which hits on frame 18 if fully charged, but not until frame 25 if not. It is also good to note that DK goes into helpless mode after the punch) and u-air (its hit-box extends a bit in front of DK, but only on the top portion of his body and is easily avoided as Kirby). None of these moves are reliable, so Kirby simply needs to out-speed DK with any of his aerials if he is in the right position to do so. Its also good to note that DK can use his side-b in the air too, but the hit is weak, has relatively little range and is slow.

Off-stage: DK’s Recovery

This is yet another aspect of the MU that is interesting. Kirby’s best bet for a kill is an outright gimp because of DK’s survivability, and at first glance it would seem to be easy to do. Generally speaking one dair, no matter how small the amount of time DK spends in it, is enough to pull off a successful gimp. A smart DK has all the options they need to defend themselves on their way back to the stage though. Off-stage, DK can use fair to cover a large portion of his hurt-box on his way back down to the stage, and it can be dangerous for a Kirby to challenge it if they aren’t close enough at the start of the move. The move either knocks Kirby back with a strong hit, allowing DK time to recover, or spikes Kirby hard, allowing for the same plus an opportunity for DK to gimp. DK can also use side-b in the air to aid his recovery. Although it’s not a very good attack damage and knock-back wise until later percents, DK can use it to stall. If the Kirby gets hit by it, it’s a weak spike, so DK is again in a favorable position to recover. DK’s up-b has a lot of priority on it as well, and covers massive horizontal ground, as well as lasting a long time (long enough so that Kirby won’t likely be able to ledge hog unless the DK is a large distance away from the ledge when he up-bs). The up-b also has invicibility frames on it while in the air, so DK can outright override some attempts at gimps simply by trying to recover. One final note: DK can recover directly to the platform with no lag if he uses up-b at the right time off-stage. This give DK a LOT more options for recovery when there are platforms available. Even with all these tools though, Kirby still only has to pull off a single (on VERY rare occations, two) dair to pull off a successful gimp and should be looking for any opportunity to do so.

Off-stage: Kirby’s Recovery

If the positions are reversed, the off-stage game very much resembles the aerial game. DK will most likely attack with his back turned for easy bair and u-air kills off the sides and top respectively. Kirby needs to be very aware of DK’s position when recovering close to level with the stage as well. DK has three spikes with which to gimp (two being nearly overpowered for how hard they hit) and can recover back to the stage fairly easily even if they miss. Kirby has a lot of off-stage staying power though, so DK will not likely go for the spike unless Kirby wanders too close to the stage without many jumps left. Kirby has a lot of options to deal with DK’s attempts to edge-guard since he has multiple jumps, but the player should be very wary of making a mistake due to it being outright deadly to do so. It should also be noted that recovering is a prime time to attempt a gimp if the Kirby is feeling brave. Dair still works it's magic on DK, and Kirby-cides are an option if Kirby is at a higher percent. The Kirby should be aware however that DK can footstool Kirby after an inhale release, reversing the gimp situation.

KO options

I’ve already gone over DK’s KO options a bit, but I'll go over them in more detail here. F-smash is in general the slowest option DK has (frame 22) and has no set-up on Kirby, but it has even more range on it than DK's f-tilt and a slight disjoint on the tip of his fingers. The move also comes out on frame 8 after a charge, so a punish happy Kirby may find themselves flying if they aren't careful. DK's u-smash is the most situational of his KO options, but can still be useful. Any time Kirby is on a platform above DK is an opportunity for DK to use the move. Unless the move is perfect shielded, it provides enough hit stun to be virtually un-punishable. The move also sends Kirby sliding along the platform and can put Kirby in helpless fall state if he falls off of it, giving DK time to punish. DK can also set this up by using down-b, but it is not guaranteed by any means. DK's d-smash is the weakest of his smash moves knock-back wise, but by far the easiest to use because of its properties. The move hits on both sides of DK and has no sour-spot to speak of, meaning if it hits, it hits hard. DK also has set-ups for this KO move, the most notable being a tippered jab above 100% and an aerial up-b->lagless landing->d-smash. The latter can also rack up a lot of damage before the hit, so its best to be careful when DK has the option.

DK's Punch is one of the most fearsome moves DK has in this match-up, and the Kirby player should be aware AT ALL TIMES how many times he has wound around his arm. The move only really works as a damage racker or a way for DK to get Kirby off of him at anything less than 9 winds. Once DK has wound his arm around 9 times though, the use of the move changes. At this many winds, it turns into one of the most fearsome KO moves in the game. It comes out in 25 frames (18 if DK is winding up when he releases it) and has the potential to kill Kirby under 50%, even with DI. At a full charge, the move loses some power (it becomes just a bit stronger than an f-smash), but gains super armor. With the SA frames, the move can be used as a very deadly counter attack. DK's giant punch has no reliable set ups, but it has them none the less. Any time that DK's side-b move plants Kirby into the ground is an opportunity for DK to land this move. DK can also reverse it while charging or in the air, so the Kirby player should never assume that they are safe from it when DK's back is turned.

I'll also mention again here that DK's bair and u-air can kill over 100%. One final thing to note: DK's b-throw can kill at percentages over 150% with DI, but it isn't likely that Kirby will be living that long in this match-up.

Now, on to Kirby’s KO options. With DI and momentum canceling, DK is the heaviest and hardest to KO character in the game. The only way Kirby is going to get a KO under 110% is going to be a gimp. DK will easily be surviving above 160% on average on the stocks that he isn’t gimped. Side KOs work best, with the trusty f-smash and hammer providing the biggest bang. Tippered d-smashes might also set up for gimps even if they don’t kill outright. Kirby shouldn't bother using u-smash unless DK is about 150% though. If the DK is good at DI and momentum canceling, he will simply fall back to the stage as if nothing happened. If Kirby has a chance to gimp, he should take it. If he doesn’t, he will have a very long and arduous road ahead of him trying for that outright KO.

It would probably be good to mention Kirby's DK power here. The range on Kirby's version of giant punch is severely limited compared to its original form, but is just as powerful. 9-wind punches and SA are both transferred to Kirby's version, and both 9-wind and fully charged punches are more powerful KO options than anything else Kirby has save perhaps hammer. Star-shot gimps are good against DK as well though, so it would be up to the Kirby player to decide which ability they would prefer.

Summary: 45-55 Donkey Kong’s advantage
 

daisho

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One small thing about the post. DK can use U air when the opponent is in the air in front of him. His head moves a bit forward.
 

Shaya

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Oh, and I was reasonably serious about my last post.
Marth has a hard time beating Kirby's bair; kirby can so easily bait it and punish it with the 5 jumps and better aerial mobility than... MK and ... Dedede.

Running shield is what maks this match up close to even... Marth gets tech chased like a *****... yay dthrow putting me DIRECTLY ABOVE kirby where it's super fun happy times with utilt, uair and kirby's dashing speed being able to keep up with my aerial mobility quite well... and having to use my midair jump is supar dangerouz.

"Sit there and take it" was completely incorrect. Yes Marth can swat away at Kirby for quite a while if he 'can'; as in, if we get you down a couple jumps first, and you're not facing away from us, you're in trouble. Plus if we're able to hit you upwards (db up, utilt, upsmash) we're at a good position as well.
55:45 Marth at BEST (for Marth).

Sorry for butting in with the DK discussion :(
 

Darknid

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While it is a slight DK advantage, your BEST FRIEND is dair. Kirby's dair is MAGICAL against DK's recovery. It almost always beats the up B, you just have to time it right and he's dead meat. God I hate facing that thing. Just remember that that is a big reason why you aren't losing 60-40 in this matchup so if you aren't using it every chance you get, you're not doing it right. Get him offstage ASAP and go for dair.

Basically, DK will space you with ftilt, dtilt, downb and dair. Don't approach with air dodges or anything directly in front of DK because you won't close that gap. You aren't fast enough. Instead, you want hm to approach you at all times. Get an up B in there when you're safe. Try to make him think he must approach. Close up, be sure to hit him with jabgrabs(if Kirby can even do that, idk) because DK will just grab you close range, and DK's grab game is a killer. Just remember you're trying to hit him before he hits you close range, and the jabgrab is good because it's low commitment.

Oh, and be careful when recovering, if you ever have to use that up B to recover, it's over. You need some SA frames on that thing.

STAGES. Don't go Japes, nobody beats DK on Japes. Ban mansion, japes, and brinstar depending on which of these are legal. A good CP for you is frigate, don't take him to RC because he will infinite you on the walls.
 

Lord Viper

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Umm, hate to break it to you but Jungle Japes is one of Kirby's best stages, unless your Falco or Jigglypuff, Donkey Kong is going to have a hard time with Kirby on the stage. Brinstar and Luigi's Mansion is correct. Rainbow Cruise is more of a bad stage for Donkey Kong since his recovery isn't good vertically also show me an example of the infinite on the wall on Kirby.

My current thought on this match up is 50/50 since Kirby can handle big characters very well, but Donkey Kong is fast with his tilts and has stupid range on a lot of his attacks. I wouldn't depend too much on Smash Attacks since the after lag on all of Donkey Kong's Smashes are punishable.

Our important threads need more discussions. =/
 

Darknid

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Umm, hate to break it to you but Jungle Japes is one of Kirby's best stages, unless your Falco or Jigglypuff, Donkey Kong is going to have a hard time with Kirby on the stage. Brinstar and Luigi's Mansion is correct. Rainbow Cruise is more of a bad stage for Donkey Kong since his recovery isn't good vertically also show me an example of the infinite on the wall on Kirby.

My current thought on this match up is 50/50 since Kirby can handle big characters very well, but Donkey Kong is fast with his tilts and has stupid range on a lot of his attacks. I wouldn't depend too much on Smash Attacks since the after lag on all of Donkey Kong's Smashes are punishable.

Our important threads need more discussions. =/
Kirby doesn't beat DK on Japes. Nobody does. Trust me, dude, if you can't beat Falco or JIGGS on japes you're probably not beating DK, the king of that stage. DK will always have a CP against you no matter what you ban. Also, DK doesn't need a vertical recovery on RC, that's a common misconception. DK is an extremely mobile character, in terms of movement he is a lot faster than Kirby. On the aerial portion of the stage, DK can simply outrun Kirby but that's not what he wants to do.

The thing about DK on RC is that the blast zones become very cramped, meaning DK can get kills at 30-40% which is redonk especially on a light char like Kirby. DK should be living twice as long as Kirby(though gimps can ruin that advantage). Oh, and there are three walls on RC. DK grabs you, cargos, and either lets you release or D throws you into a wall then Dtilt locks you. The only way to escape this is to SDI into a jump, but when DK sees you doing that he can grab you again and let you break out of cargo so he can keep Dtilting you.

As for DK's attacks, punch is unpunishable, F smash is safe on block, U smash isn't very punishable if DK is using it right. D smash is punishable always but it will generally be used when it's a sure thing. DK has no problems killing and Kirby is much easier to punish due to the fact that every A move that Kirby has can be shieldgrabbed, even a perfectly spaced bair because DK's grab range is almost as good as D3's.
 
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