A1lion835
Smash Champion
You just made me remember. We're not doing Wario. Or Weegee. Anyone present in the last ganonfork discussion should agree that it needs a rediscuss.
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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!
- Thread starter Kewkky
- Start date
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Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ God yes we need to rediscuss him. Back then too many people wasn't sure what to give because it was kind of... chaotic, lol. I believe it's 70/30 Kirby or at worst 65/35. ☆
Why? is it set as even? Cuz I know that Kirby absolutely annihilates Ganon.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032&page=70
Goes until page 91. There was a lot of talk about how Kirby was better from our side, a lot of talk from the forks about all their ZOMG AT's, I think a suggestion by me to have gonzo and asidoh fight in a pseudo-clanwar against the entire ganondorf boards, and a final conclusion of 55:45 our favor.
Edit: Sleep. I have to get up at 7:45, and I hate having 6.5 hours of sleep a night...almost as much as I like staying up until 1:00 on days where I have to get up early.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Any Ganon worth their salt will give you pain beyond existence if they pull a gerudo off on you. Kirby is one of the easiest characters to tech chase with that move out of the entire cast, and Ganon is no slouch outside of that move in the MU considering that Kirby doesn't have an abusable projectile or out-range him. Its still Kirby's favor I think, but not by a lot.
You do realize that you can just grab the Ganon out of Gerudo and take HIM to school?
As Kirby, it isn't that hard to dodge. The only character that Ganon should be constantly chasing is Charizard.
As Kirby, it isn't that hard to dodge. The only character that Ganon should be constantly chasing is Charizard.
Easy to take care of tech-chasing: Just sit back and wait for him to ftilt/dtilt you, don't let the tech chase continue. What's worse: 50% damage, or 20% damage along with you far away from him? (of course it depends on your damage)
TP
Smash Master
No Ganon is going to Ftilt or Dtilt a Kirby after a choke unless you are already at a kill %. With Kirby, it is choke, choke, choke. Your roll is so slow that we can rechoke on REACTION, not prediction. In a tourney set once, I got 6 consecutive chokes on a Kirby and then finished it with an Ftilt. On the next stock, I got 6 again before screwing up. It's that easy once I spent half an hour studying all of Kirby's animations.
Straked, Charizard is a lot harder to chainchoke than Kirby or Pikachu. If the Charizard doesn't DI anything, it's easy, but if he isn't a moron, it's very very hard.
The matchup is in Kirby's favor, but not by much.
Jekyll
Smash Ace
I REALLY don't have much experience against good Kirbys. I think Asdioh about 9 months ago was the first time I even played one and he quickly handed me my ***. However, I've learned a bit more about the matchup since then (specifically how to not take %50+ from a single grab) and I think the matchup lies somewhere between 60-40(Kirby's favor) and 50-50. And before I get jumped for even suggesting 50-50, Ganon's ability to kill Kirby in like 6 moves is the reason I think that's possible.
I'm also not going to factor in any advantage that Ganon gains by chainchoking mostly because I don't think any Ganon player has put in enough serious time to learn the tech. Also, in response to:
Edit: If it's really as easy to react to Kirby's rolls as TP is saying it is, then this should definitely be 50-50ish. I just haven't checked it out myself.
I'm also not going to factor in any advantage that Ganon gains by chainchoking mostly because I don't think any Ganon player has put in enough serious time to learn the tech. Also, in response to:
IF the Ganon is chainchoking properly(reacting to your getup animation), then all that lying there will do is waste time since you'll be forced to get up in a couple seconds. The only way to escape actual chainchoking for most characters is to just get to an edge asap...And then try not to eat an f-smash, dash attack or dair since your options there are pretty limited.Kewkky said:
Edit: If it's really as easy to react to Kirby's rolls as TP is saying it is, then this should definitely be 50-50ish. I just haven't checked it out myself.
TP, a smart Kirby won't be hovering in front or behind Ganon, he'll most likely be ABOVE ganon, waiting for him to do something. Truth be told, Ganon's attacks can't be "spammed" safely, so even uairs and usmashes can be taken advantage of for us to fall with a dair on you. And if you're shielding waiting for us to fall to the floor to start the chainchoking, once we land we have the option of hitting you with either an upB once we're near the floor and you're about to rush with a sideB, or our own sideB in the air. Our sideB pushes you back enough for us to land, get our lag over with, and be prepared for whatever you do (probably jump+airdodge in your direction if you sideB), since hitstun from the attack landing on your shield, your sideB's starting frames, and the time spent flying towards us helps us accomplish so.
If we have an advantage, what's preventing us from ledgecamping you, or aircamping you? We're like MK in the sense that we're light and have multiple jumps, and if we sweetspot the ledge from the lowest possible angle it's pretty much umpossible for you to do anything about it. All it takes is a stock advantage if we think the Ganon is too good, and...
Just a quick question... Does your sideB beat our inhale?
Edit: How easy is it to react to Kirby's rolls if Kirby mixes it up? If he rolls forward, easy chainchoke. If he rolls backwards, easy chainchoke. If he attack getup's, shield>choke. If he simply gets up, chainchoke... Theoretically this is possible, but against a top Kirby, a top Ganon wouldn't be able to predict his rolls. Chainchoking really has a lot to do with prediction, much like how other characters can win in disadvantaged MU's. It's a legit tech, but if a player is unpredictable like, say, he rolls forward first, then waits half a second before rolling forward again, then quickly does a normal getup, it's all too difficult to successfully follow around.
I feel like you're putting too much weight on chainchoking... If it really deprives others from the ability to do anything, why do you think Ganon's never make it far in national tourneys, besides representation? It certainly isn't because Ganon's don't know how to chainchoke, I can assure you.
Oh, and why don't we list the pros to the cons in this MU, as well as bring frame data to the table? Considering that an average human is able to react in 10 frames and raising shield/spotdodging in less than 3 frames is possible in this game...
Pro's on Kirby's side:
* We rack up damage too easy. Ganon is big and heavy, the perfect combination for Kirby to combo with little to no effort at low %s.
* Kirby's got multiple jumps and a disjointed upB, saving him from getting gimped by nearly every character in the game.
* Kirby's gimping game is very powerful: an offstage heavy with limited vertical/horizontal recovery is practically assured one stock less.
* Aerials are fast and powerful. They also combo into other things, including grabs.
* We can kirbicide>footstool you if you're not careful, as well as kirbicide>footstool>dair and survive while you die thanks to our many jumps.
* Kirby's aerial mobility might not be the best, but coupled with DI and momentum cancelling, he can live until mid 100's.
* Kirby's grab game is seriously ********. He can do lots of things out of grabs, as well as combo INTO other grabs... And Ganon being a heavy fastfaller, he is very comboable.
* Can kill with ease also, thanks to bair being refreshed with pummels and our extremely fast pummel speed, as well as our incredible fsmash (and dsmash/usmash are decent too).
Kirby's cons:
* His lightweight can cost him a stock at low %, especially considering Ganondorf is a powerful killer.
* According to TP, he can be techchased easily.
Now help me out with the cons and pro's, cuz that's really all I got...
If we have an advantage, what's preventing us from ledgecamping you, or aircamping you? We're like MK in the sense that we're light and have multiple jumps, and if we sweetspot the ledge from the lowest possible angle it's pretty much umpossible for you to do anything about it. All it takes is a stock advantage if we think the Ganon is too good, and...
Just a quick question... Does your sideB beat our inhale?
Edit: How easy is it to react to Kirby's rolls if Kirby mixes it up? If he rolls forward, easy chainchoke. If he rolls backwards, easy chainchoke. If he attack getup's, shield>choke. If he simply gets up, chainchoke... Theoretically this is possible, but against a top Kirby, a top Ganon wouldn't be able to predict his rolls. Chainchoking really has a lot to do with prediction, much like how other characters can win in disadvantaged MU's. It's a legit tech, but if a player is unpredictable like, say, he rolls forward first, then waits half a second before rolling forward again, then quickly does a normal getup, it's all too difficult to successfully follow around.
I feel like you're putting too much weight on chainchoking... If it really deprives others from the ability to do anything, why do you think Ganon's never make it far in national tourneys, besides representation? It certainly isn't because Ganon's don't know how to chainchoke, I can assure you.
Oh, and why don't we list the pros to the cons in this MU, as well as bring frame data to the table? Considering that an average human is able to react in 10 frames and raising shield/spotdodging in less than 3 frames is possible in this game...
Pro's on Kirby's side:
* We rack up damage too easy. Ganon is big and heavy, the perfect combination for Kirby to combo with little to no effort at low %s.
* Kirby's got multiple jumps and a disjointed upB, saving him from getting gimped by nearly every character in the game.
* Kirby's gimping game is very powerful: an offstage heavy with limited vertical/horizontal recovery is practically assured one stock less.
* Aerials are fast and powerful. They also combo into other things, including grabs.
* We can kirbicide>footstool you if you're not careful, as well as kirbicide>footstool>dair and survive while you die thanks to our many jumps.
* Kirby's aerial mobility might not be the best, but coupled with DI and momentum cancelling, he can live until mid 100's.
* Kirby's grab game is seriously ********. He can do lots of things out of grabs, as well as combo INTO other grabs... And Ganon being a heavy fastfaller, he is very comboable.
* Can kill with ease also, thanks to bair being refreshed with pummels and our extremely fast pummel speed, as well as our incredible fsmash (and dsmash/usmash are decent too).
Kirby's cons:
* His lightweight can cost him a stock at low %, especially considering Ganondorf is a powerful killer.
* According to TP, he can be techchased easily.
Now help me out with the cons and pro's, cuz that's really all I got...
Jekyll
Smash Ace
Chainchoking isn't about prediction at all. It's based purely on reaction. The only character whose animations I've studied is MK, so I can't COMPLETELY speak for how easy this is to do to Kirby, but if the Ganon can recognize the animations for getup and getup attack, and react to the rolls, then you can mix it up all you want, but you're not escaping.
Edit: Honestly, chainchoking might just require reaction speeds that are faster than what most people can produce. It also takes a LOT of research and practice, and anyone who is THAT serious about this game most likely won't be playing Ganon.
It actually does have the ability to lock down the opponent regardless of what they do until they get to the edge, where another choke will place them on the ledge.
I'd seriously love to play a Ganon and test this "you'll never escape" theory... If it's true, then I'll have a huge laugh cuz it will just be plain funny. If it's not true, then I guess I proved a point.
And if Ganons can study a matchup that extensively, then what makes Kirby so different? A Kirby who puts his time in the MU is almost certain to avoid any sideB attempts, just like any Ganon that studies the MU is almost assured the Kirby can't evade the sideB attempt.
Jekyll
Smash Ace
I'm actually going to check out Kirby's animations tomorrow and see how feasible chainchoking is in this matchup.
You're definitely right in saying that a Kirby who knows the matchup is going to do everything they can to avoid getting hit by a sideB, but I don't know if that's too beneficial to the discussion of a matchup. I think it's similar to saying that any good MK player is going to be in the air/spacing so well that they'll never be grabbed by the ICs...And we all know that doesn't really turn out that way. To Kirby's benefit, though, Flame Choke's startup lag means that's it's really only reliable when punishing laggy moves or catching opponents that are landing.
TP
Smash Master
I talk about chainchoking a lot for two reasons:
1) It tends to be something most people don't know about, so it needs explanation often.
2) I sorta named it, made the thread on it, taught others how to do it, and researched what characters it works on. So I'm quite biased, honestly. Not gonna lie. Still, Kirby happens to be the 2nd easiest character to do it against.
Choke is a punishing move, not an approach. From a theoretical standpoint, it should be quite hard to land a choke (16 frame startup). However, it really isn't that hard to land about 3 in a match, even against an air-based character.
You say you can aircamp or ledgecamp us? Well, you can. One mistake will kill you if you ledgecamp, though. Not to mention the TO might not allow it. Aircamping... maybe we will FINALLY have an actual use for the Flight of Ganon. It brings us above you, which is still not great, but it takes your Dair out of the equation at least.
Stalling against Ganon does not happen often, simply because most of the time matches with Ganon take very little time. Unless my opponent is a campy character like Pikachu, my matches rarely exceed 3 minutes with Ganon. Ganon kills so quick (and gets gimped just as quickly
) that running the clock is hard because there is just so much clock to get through.Ganon wins the spacing war easily, which is a huge plus. His Dtilt outranges everything Bowser has, let alone Kirby. Ganon's anti-air game is great, thanks to his Uair.
Still, after all that your grab combos and your god**** Bair are too important to ignore. The matchup is in your favor, but not more than 60-40.
A2ZOMG
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OK, like...didn't we discuss this matchup a long time ago? Whatever.
So like it's either 6/4 Kirby or 65/35 Kirby. Either one goes with me.
Taking it from the Ganon perspective anyhow (since I use Ganon, not Kirby):
It's a pretty lame matchup. Like vs Marth in that working past that aerial spacing is a chore. Basically you should learn to powershield his B-air. If you can powershield it, you get a free Dashgrab. It's somewhat telegraphed since it's his obvious spacer, but it's hard to punish without a powershield since he's so mobile. Although Ganondorf does have the luxury of outprioritizing or at least trading hits if he can get his attack in range.
Kirby for the most part will avoid being on the ground since he can do that. Although you should watch out for his grab and powerful smashes. His F-smash in particular is noteable for I believe outranging you. His F-tilt is also annoying since it has comparable range to your D-tilt.
Once your offstage, if you have to recover from below, you will likely get spiked by Kirby's D-air, so obviously watch out for that.
Otherwise, the matchup is pretty straightforward. Don't miss the opportunity to D-air his Up-B when it's available. Always angle your F-smash downwards if he's on the ground. Don't try to do anything reckless because Kirby is able to pretty easily punish you for being reckless, and that gets ugly. On the other hand, well-timed N-airs and F-airs on a spacing Kirby can be very satisfying.
So like it's either 6/4 Kirby or 65/35 Kirby. Either one goes with me.
Taking it from the Ganon perspective anyhow (since I use Ganon, not Kirby):
It's a pretty lame matchup. Like vs Marth in that working past that aerial spacing is a chore. Basically you should learn to powershield his B-air. If you can powershield it, you get a free Dashgrab. It's somewhat telegraphed since it's his obvious spacer, but it's hard to punish without a powershield since he's so mobile. Although Ganondorf does have the luxury of outprioritizing or at least trading hits if he can get his attack in range.
Kirby for the most part will avoid being on the ground since he can do that. Although you should watch out for his grab and powerful smashes. His F-smash in particular is noteable for I believe outranging you. His F-tilt is also annoying since it has comparable range to your D-tilt.
Once your offstage, if you have to recover from below, you will likely get spiked by Kirby's D-air, so obviously watch out for that.
Otherwise, the matchup is pretty straightforward. Don't miss the opportunity to D-air his Up-B when it's available. Always angle your F-smash downwards if he's on the ground. Don't try to do anything reckless because Kirby is able to pretty easily punish you for being reckless, and that gets ugly. On the other hand, well-timed N-airs and F-airs on a spacing Kirby can be very satisfying.
A single powershield done to any of Ganon's attacks (except sideB, hehehe) would mean Ganon is getting grabbed, and we know how THAT story goes.
TP, Kirby never lags. The most lag frames he can have due to a whiffed attack are the ones in his fsmash's ending lag. Kirbies generally don't spam that when you're at high %s since bair can also kill, and is in no way close to being as punishable as an fsmash. Ganon's sideB can grab Kirby's fsmash rather easily, I'm thinking, and I agree... But you won't be able to catch anything else, he really never gets landing lag if he cancels lag with nair, and that's WAY less than 10 frames right there... Plus, if you're anticipating a landing, all Kirby has to do is sideB stall a bit then land with an aerial, or land with an upB.
My friend showed us how the FoG looks like a couple of months back, it was pretty cool, Ganon gains a lot of height. Compared to Kirby, he has an AT... He definitely can evade dairs like that, unless the Kirby chases Ganon's downB and anticipates the superjump, then he dairs Ganon at that moment and it's pretty much over for that AT. Quick question: can Ganon attack while doing the super jump part of the FoG?
Oh, and no one answered my inhale question. Does inhale get grabbed by a sideB? I'm pretty sure it does, but just wondering... Because if it does, you pretty much can't do a thing against inhales when they're used properly, meaning lots of kirbicides>footstool>dairs will be happening during the MU when you attack Kirby's inhale (we get super armor and you still get inhaled... A well-timed inhale near an edge is already one stock less for you guys, since your vertical recovery isn't THAT great... If it were falcon's, then he might have a chance, but you don't reach as far, and you're heavier).
TP, why do you believe it's 60/40 Kirby's, and not higher? Kirby pretty much has the advantage anywhere in and out of the stage, except in front of Ganon and in a laggy moment (then it's 100:0 Ganon's if they know their animations like you say, lol
).Jekyll, saying that a smart kirby will ledgecamp and aircamp with stuff means the same as Ganons who study Kirby's get-up animation: they know their safest options, and they make sure they're using them. Falcos emphasize about camping with lasers and sideB'ing away in the Kirby MU to avoid any of Kirby's hard-hitting approaches. MK's emphasize with air camping and ledgecamping in the IC's MU to avoid grabs. Kirby can camp as well to avoid any and all cornering sideB's. If you're predicting his landing area, a Kirby could just airdodge and move to a side, depending on how close you sideB'd. You can't follow and start a chainchoke on someone who airdodged and landed behind you... Which people should do instead of spotdodging: shorthop airdodge.
And one last thing I'll write down for now: a Kirby who knows the MU will most likely never attempt a laggy move against Ganon, then. Why the need for a flashy grounded sideB, or killing with an fsmash? Killing with bair is good enough, and it doesn't take a pro to grab an opponent who doesn't have disjoints and pummel 9 times total to refresh our arsenal.
TP
Smash Master
Every character board always gives a nice explanation of why they can easily avoid the Choke. The explanations always make sense, but when the matches come around, the chokes still happen. It's mainly mindgames, which makes it inappropriate for matchup discussion, but the point is that you can't disregard the Choke because it is hard to land. I got several chokes on the best Wario main in the state when I played him, if that's worth anything. (He still kicked my *** though
)He can attack once he is about halfway up. The out-of-a-DownB version of the FoG is the bad version. It is much better out of a double jump airdodge, because then you don't have the DownB announcing that it is about to happen. The airdodge version is much harder, which is why you weren't shown it.
I faced an online Kirby the other day and got inhaled at the edge twice. Both times I survived. However, I am well aware that the Kirby may have been doing it wrong due to it being online. Please explain the inhale situation more thoroughly, so I can get a better feel for what's going on.
Jekyll wasn't kidding when he said you die in 6 hits. Dash attack (also guaranteed out of a choke, BTW) kills you at about 95% fresh. Dair of course is a monster. Aerial DownB kills you vertically at about 80%. Ftilt kills you at about 100% if you are anywhere near the ledge. Fsmash if we land it kills at like 60% near the edge. Fair at about 100%. Ganon's whole moveset does about 15% per hit. In other words, at any given moment Kirby will have the advantage, but unless you are playing PERFECTLY we should be able to keep up.TP, why do you believe it's 60/40 Kirby's, and not higher? Kirby pretty much has the advantage anywhere in and out of the stage, except in front of Ganon and in a laggy moment (then it's 100:0 Ganon's if they know their animations like you say, lol
I gotta go, so that's enough for now. This is fun. I like friendly debates.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, then! I try to be as less disrespectful as possible.I gotta go, so that's enough for now. This is fun. I like friendly debates.
Yes it's worth something, even if he still kicked your ***. It means that even a Wario, which is an aerial *******, can be successfully chainchoked, even if at everything else he destroys you.Every character board always gives a nice explanation of why they can easily avoid the Choke. The explanations always make sense, but when the matches come around, the chokes still happen. It's mainly mindgames, which makes it inappropriate for matchup discussion, but the point is that you can't disregard the Choke because it is hard to land. I got several chokes on the best Wario main in the state when I played him, if that's worth anything. (He still kicked my *** though
Still, it would be fair to say that Kirby can relate to Wario here, maybe not in horizontal aerial movement, but on vertical. Kirby also has a better fair+bair than Wario, which is what we mainly use anyway. So if Wario could destroy a Ganon without grab combos, you can only assume what Kirby can do once he gets a hold of you.
Yeah, I remember he was trying to do the airdodge one, but he never got to do it, he only showed me the downB one. Nice to know you can attack halfway up the jump, it means that it can punish predictable kirbies who spend the match hovering directly above you then, which is good. Still unpredictability is quite common in top levels of play, so no Kirby will be putting themselves in a bad position given that Ganon can kill Kirby quite early.
Well, it goes like this: We inhale you, and jump out away from the stage. Once you break out, we mash the jump button. You'll get footstooled and we'll gain vertical height, so you'll be even lower below the stage, with a Kirby directly above you. You're gonna jump (if you didn't waste it when we footstooled you) and upB to the stage, but the Kirby will do a non-fastfalled dair on you (by holding down while footstooling you then mashing the A button when out of footstool lag), spiking you even lower and possibly even get yet another footstool on you (which is almost 100% assured, mind you). It can literally kill you at 0% if you're caught by an inhale near the edge. And the worst part in Ganon's perspective is that since your aerials are quite laggy, you won't want to take the risk of ending up even lower below the stage. And performing FoG with an airdodge is difficult, enough to make people in that situation decide to not use it, in case it fails and they end up too low to recover (if that's how it's used, that is. I'm not really knowledgeable in Ganon's airdodge FoG).
That's the gist of it.
Yeahhh, Dair is quite awesome. It's always funny when I see a Ganon dairing someone and them dying at the top of the stage, especially since it makes close to no sound. In Melee all you heard was a low thump and the crowd going "Ooooooooooh!", that was epic stuff right there.
And yes, Kirby's light weight is a given disadvantage with such a hard-hitter as Ganon... But is it enough of a disadvantage to warrant him this NOT a counterpick matchup? Because even if Kirby is easily killed by Ganon, it still is quite difficult to land an attack if the Kirby knows what to watch out for, and I've proven this against TL's, Pika's, Marths (to an extent), Snakes and DDDs. The difference with these guys and Ganon is that Ganon's attacks have longer start-up, making it safer to react slower-than-normal, which is why Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch is so difficult to kill people with, even when mindgamed. I'm quite sure it would obliterate Kirby at 60%, yet it's easily evaded because it's easy to react to... I'm not saying Ganon's attacks are THAT slow, I'm just stating that reacting to slow attacks is really not that difficult when compared to other characters' killing moves' speed.
EDIT: What would Ganon mains do to Kirby if you're taken to stages like Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise and Frigate Orpheon? The stage hazards and/or moving terrain is a disadvantage for chainchoking. If you choke us on a platform, we can just wait it out and then roll at the last possible second, stalling for a stage hazard to get you guys off of us, like the acid in Brinstar and lava on Norfair.
What this serious? If you get choked, you have to get up some time. There's a set amount of time before you automatically stand. Oh, and they can attack you while you're laying there helpless not abusing invincibility frames by rolling.
A2ZOMG
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Brinstar and Norfair is great for Ganon thanks to suicidal funtimes. Aerial SideB as the lava comes up is ****.
Koskinator likes Norfair a lot too.
Koskinator likes Norfair a lot too.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Elaborating a bit more:
If Ganonfork breaks out of Kirby's stomach while in the air, he has 2 choices: don't DI away from Kirby and get footstooled, or DI away from Kirby and not survive...or the Kirby could jump off backwards and spit you into a stage lip, meteor smashing you. Any of the 3 ways end badly for you, obviously.
And I'm pretty sure that FoG has something to do with how high you are off the ground, so you can't use it offstage...I hope. O_o
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
I guess I worded that pretty poorly. The argument was trying to debunk chainchoking, not really saying they were CP options. If you just lay there and the Ganon kicks you, then voila, you're not getting chainchoked, problem solved! If he doesn't, then he runs the risk of lava or acid rising up and ending the chainchoke. If he tries a slow killmove (like fullhop dair, fair or a down-angled smash attack) then Kirby by reaction rolls behind where Ganon was and he evades death. By reaction, like Ganon chokes Kirby by reaction to his animation.
Plus, I know Ganon has some very awesome gimmicks on those stages, but Kirby barely ever has to worry about acid getting in his way. His many jumps and floatiness assure him that he won't be touching acid/lava anytime soon. Still, not suggesting it as CP's, just trying to debunk chainchoking being MU-breaking against Kirby.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Speaking of stages, I will help with the stage knowledge more. Though if you pick Jungle Japes than Kirby will love who ever picked it because there's only a handful of characters that great, and the rest do bad because of the water currents, (that Kirby can abuse heavily). The biggest sad part about this match up is that Ganondorf is forced to attack in the air, thanks to some of Ganondorf's ground attacks Kirby is able to punish, even ducked: ☆
☆ I guess Ganondorf plays good on stages with close platforms, and close kill zones, only a handful of stages that have that as well. Most stages Kirby has the advantage over Ganondorf, I will explain later. ☆
So yeah... I'm not gonna give any numbers, but let's just say we have a good advantage. Kirby's game is in the air. Ganondorf's game is on the ground. There are times we may find each other on the other side of the road (G-Dorf in air, Kirby on ground), but overall, Kirby has the advantage. Even considering G-Dorf's susceptibility to "kirbicide > footstool > dair" which kills at 0% practiccally and 100% of the time...
Let's just say it's a counterpick-type MU... THAT kind of advantage.
*is still waiting for TwilightPrince's return, as well as Jekyll's*
Let's just say it's a counterpick-type MU... THAT kind of advantage.
*is still waiting for TwilightPrince's return, as well as Jekyll's*
Jekyll
Smash Ace
Sorry, summer finals and moving into a new apartment. I'm not going to have much to say til Saturday afternoon.
Ah, awright then, I can be patient.
*JuriHan*
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I really feel this matchup is 45-55 in Kirby's advantage. I play many Ganondorfs. If I'm playing less skilled ones it feels like it is 60-40. If I'm playing a skilled one (e.g. Twilight Prince) it's generally close until a player makes a big mistake and gets punished severely. But it feels 45-55. But like, when I fight Twilight Prince, I am constantly on my toes and it does not feel like I have a 60:40 or 65:35 advantage. No way.
Chain chokes will happen if you are facing a good Ganondorf. Just one mistake is all it takes. Kirby's roll is gawd awful.
If you do not space correctly, Ganondorf's d-air can **** up your air game.
Ganondorf's attacks are quite damaging, and he has some attacks with massive knockback like f-smash. F-tilt is quick and potent too if not staled, so he can easily kill Kirby early.
It originally was 45-55, and I still agree with this ratio.
Chain chokes will happen if you are facing a good Ganondorf. Just one mistake is all it takes. Kirby's roll is gawd awful.
If you do not space correctly, Ganondorf's d-air can **** up your air game.
Ganondorf's attacks are quite damaging, and he has some attacks with massive knockback like f-smash. F-tilt is quick and potent too if not staled, so he can easily kill Kirby early.
It originally was 45-55, and I still agree with this ratio.
I'm thinking that a top-level Kirby practically doesn't roll, if only to evade slow, laggy attacks when there's nothing else to do. Plus, you can jump+airdodge+move in any direction to evade the sideB if you see it coming, instead of rolling... It actually gives you better mobility than a roll, plus you also have invincibility frames.
How can a G.Dorf get above Kirby -while Kirby is bairing- and get daired? Even if you're doing a falling bair and G.Dorf just jumped and is about to dair as soon as you touched the ground, it still leaves you enough time to powershield, which will leave G.Dorf in quite a bit of stun from hitting the shield, and aerial lag. Enough to turn around and grab, or grab if he lands in front of you. By the way, G.Dorf's dair has a 15-frame-activation hitbox, so it's easy to see coming. *EDIT* I read on the Ganon frame data thread (****, it's a very well-organized thread, I love it. Props to you guys) that he has a MINIMUM of 22-frames before Dair's hitbox hits anyone, due to shorthop inactivity frames at start-up.
G.Dorf's ftilt extends his hurtbox, so Kirby can grab it. Kirby can inhale his dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash and warlock punch from the ledge for a kirbycide, too. However, I don't know if Kirby can inhale those on-stage... Does his ftilt have more range than our inhale? And I also want to know about sideB vs. inhale. I know we can inhale character moves if their hurtbox are close enough to our inhale grab range, and luckily G.Dorf's attacks are all extensions of hurtboxes (besides downB). I dunno about his grab moves (sideB, upB)...
He has the killing power, but Kirby has the speed, and G.Dorf really can't shieldgrab if we space right, meaning we can pressure his shield from a bair distance without suffering an OoS grab option other than SideB... And we can either roll behind him if sideB is started due to its distinctive animation, long startup time (16 frames), and the time it takes to reach Kirby after being pushed backwards by hitting his shield, or shorthop > airdodge... And if you powershield our bair, remember that Kirby gets in and out of attack and grab ranges when he spaces. Rising bair = too high for counters, falling bair > crouch/rising bair = out of hitbox and z-grab ranges... Although, if you powershield, you have more time to react to Kirby's workings.
Oh and... I'll come up with some other frame stuff as soon as I figure out how many frames of lag one gets from a powershield. That + Ganon's dashgrab frames (11) = what I want... Then I can come up with a way for Kirby to counter that if it's a bit more, even 1 frame more will do. BUT SO FAR:
Kirby can counter Perfect Shield > Ganon Dashgrab with...
* If Kirby is bair rising, there's no problem here, you're already too high.
* If Kirby is bair falling, he can jump+airdodge, spotdodge, ftilt, roll behind G.Dorf, possibly even utilt.
How can a G.Dorf get above Kirby -while Kirby is bairing- and get daired? Even if you're doing a falling bair and G.Dorf just jumped and is about to dair as soon as you touched the ground, it still leaves you enough time to powershield, which will leave G.Dorf in quite a bit of stun from hitting the shield, and aerial lag. Enough to turn around and grab, or grab if he lands in front of you. By the way, G.Dorf's dair has a 15-frame-activation hitbox, so it's easy to see coming. *EDIT* I read on the Ganon frame data thread (****, it's a very well-organized thread, I love it. Props to you guys) that he has a MINIMUM of 22-frames before Dair's hitbox hits anyone, due to shorthop inactivity frames at start-up.
G.Dorf's ftilt extends his hurtbox, so Kirby can grab it. Kirby can inhale his dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash and warlock punch from the ledge for a kirbycide, too. However, I don't know if Kirby can inhale those on-stage... Does his ftilt have more range than our inhale? And I also want to know about sideB vs. inhale. I know we can inhale character moves if their hurtbox are close enough to our inhale grab range, and luckily G.Dorf's attacks are all extensions of hurtboxes (besides downB). I dunno about his grab moves (sideB, upB)...
He has the killing power, but Kirby has the speed, and G.Dorf really can't shieldgrab if we space right, meaning we can pressure his shield from a bair distance without suffering an OoS grab option other than SideB... And we can either roll behind him if sideB is started due to its distinctive animation, long startup time (16 frames), and the time it takes to reach Kirby after being pushed backwards by hitting his shield, or shorthop > airdodge... And if you powershield our bair, remember that Kirby gets in and out of attack and grab ranges when he spaces. Rising bair = too high for counters, falling bair > crouch/rising bair = out of hitbox and z-grab ranges... Although, if you powershield, you have more time to react to Kirby's workings.
Oh and... I'll come up with some other frame stuff as soon as I figure out how many frames of lag one gets from a powershield. That + Ganon's dashgrab frames (11) = what I want... Then I can come up with a way for Kirby to counter that if it's a bit more, even 1 frame more will do. BUT SO FAR:
Kirby can counter Perfect Shield > Ganon Dashgrab with...
* If Kirby is bair rising, there's no problem here, you're already too high.
* If Kirby is bair falling, he can jump+airdodge, spotdodge, ftilt, roll behind G.Dorf, possibly even utilt.
*JuriHan*
Smash Master
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Well, fullhopping your bairs then doing your second jump to avoid a random G.Dorf Uair counter should take care of that. You could also empty shorthop and come down with a falling bair from a ways off (spacing from a decent distance).
Geez, where's the Kirby frame threads when we need them? I wish ours was as nice as G.Dorf's...
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Strangely, fighting a Ganondorf main is a rarity to me. Almost nobody picks him so my advance thoughts is jacked up right now, lol. But still, it's always fun to grab Ganondorf till he's around 60% then force him out the stage and gimp him. <3 ☆
Jekyll
Smash Ace
Wow...Umm...
I've got to get back to packing, but I have two confirmations to make.
1. Flame Choke does go through inhale, but only if started at the right distance (just outside the visible range of the Inhale).
2. As far as chainchoking goes, it probably doesn't get much easier than Kirby. He makes distinct noises based on what he does after being choked, his rolls are slow and short, and his attack (the only choice that doesn't make a noise) has enough windup and is visibly different enough to see coming.
Discuss...
I've got to get back to packing, but I have two confirmations to make.
1. Flame Choke does go through inhale, but only if started at the right distance (just outside the visible range of the Inhale).
2. As far as chainchoking goes, it probably doesn't get much easier than Kirby. He makes distinct noises based on what he does after being choked, his rolls are slow and short, and his attack (the only choice that doesn't make a noise) has enough windup and is visibly different enough to see coming.
Discuss...
Well, "take the fight to the air" is a Kirby solution, I guess. Or go for gimps: Kirby does a single grab, does the fthrow combo and follows up with an attack to send G.Dorf offstage, then go with dairs and footstools. Or if Ganon is grabbing the ledge, edgeguard with bairs since his invinciframes start before he's mobile or any hitmoxes are out.
If Kirby should space all of his aerials right, buffer everything, and cancel all landing lag with bairs/nairs, then it would be very, very, VERY difficult for the Ganon to land a choke... This'd be easier to test in practice, but right now we can't do offline matches, and online has a minimum of 6-frame lag, meaning that your attacks would be faster, making it harder for us to shield (all your hitbox activation frames - 6 frames)... So, play a goodspacing game, plus a bait-and-punishment strategy. This should make the matchup an intensely difficult one for G.Dorf. Without his choke, he's gimpedsince Kirby outranges all of G.Dorf's attacks with bair, and outrioritizes others (downB).
So, if we play a spaced, safe game... We take away your sideB practically. With its long start-up, it can be evaded in time, since nothing Kirby has gives him that amount of lag for you to punish with a choke (all landing lag is canceled with a bair/nair, practically).
Simply put, we just play smart and avoid his dangerous move, like in every MU... Except that yours has a 16-frame hitbox activation window that gives us too much time to evade the sideB. Kirby doesn't have any laggy moves (besides fsmash, and it can be used to punish YOUR mistakes rather than throw it around), and really just needs one for damage-racking. Plus, his grab has deceptive range, making it easy for us to punish whiffed attacks (since your hurtbox is extended, which we can grab) and shields.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I sense that it's time to move on. Any objections?
Well, what ratio are we agreeing on? I say this is a counterpick MU, which is 65:35 Kirby's minimum. What do others say?I sense that it's time to move on. Any objections?
*JuriHan*
Smash Master
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It's 60:40 at best for Kirby and 55:45 at worst. Kewkky have you ever fought good Ganondorfs before?
Yep, a friend of mine whose gamer tag is SiN (in PR, not USA) mains a couple of low tiers, and G.Dorf is one of his most-used ones... Right along with Yoshi. He's pretty good, he does FoG with little effort, chainchokes me, most of the time tries to outspace me, and does everything he's learned to work against my kirby with G.Dorf... And when he goes offstage, it's a fight for his life, as well as when I land a grab or a single bair. Kirby just needs one attack to cause hitstun and G.Dorf is going to be racking a big amount of %.
It's 60:40 at best for Kirby and 55:45 at worst. Kewkky have you ever fought good Ganondorfs before?
Jekyll
Smash Ace
What exactly are Kirby's options out of a grab? Anything that comes after F-throw->uair isn't guaranteed at any % since Ganon can DI to the ground and escape, and that's hardly a gamebreaking combo. I keep hearing about how badly Ganon is ***** by grabs, but I honestly don't know what you guys have in mind.
fthrow > uair > reverse utilt a couple of times until you're about to DI out > bair > edgeguard
dthrow > utilt until you're about to DI out > rising bair > falling bair > edgeguard
fthrow > fair > ftilt
fthrow > fair > pummel+dthrow > utilt > bair
There are loads of other variations for purposes of "mixing it up" in case you catch up and escape any custom combo by DI'ing, jumping and airdodging in the right directions. Think of Kirby's juggling as Ganon's sideB techchasing... As long as you're in the air trying to land with no jumps and Kirby won't let you, there's really nothing you can do but mindgame Kirby into thinking you'll land somewhere but actually landing somewhere else (or using a random special that grabs shields, and even that's very risky).
All can be escaped using the right methods, though... But the way to escape them puts you in disadvantaged positions where we can bair you or re-grab you... Or even fsmash you if you're about to land and we read your landing trajectory. A well-timed fsmash can hit you even if you airdodge while landing, which means it's time for us to dair/bair you as edgeguards and you lose the stock (Kirby's gimping game is phenomenal).
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