APM of Smashers. July Update - The Fastest Peach

Tomacawk said:

Alphican is 100% correct. Alphican, iccup?

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Yeah I play Iccup, but I need to make a new account due to I am going by a new alias now for a variety of reasons, so if you want go on the SC discussion thread and I'll say when I make one there. My Iccup high was C+, but I forget what account that was on (long time ago), and I started playing again and I could barely make C- :\.

C+ is pretty good. I quit right before iccup started up. Most of my friends are C- to B-, I would say I'd be about a C- nowadays, but in my prime I would be C+

Strong_Bad said:

both of Cyclops' supers are mashable... not to mention standard viper beam for Cable.

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I meant hypers, my bad. Forgot about Cyclops, too. But even still, that's very few moves out of all the commonly played characters. Max APM of mashable hypers would probably be limited to max combos.

I decided to make my own contribution to this thread. I analyzed zhu's apm in his first game against Hungrybox from their set at genesis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKvgyiBaZYo

If you don't want to see all of the actions listed:
grand total: 488 actions
match time: 2 minutes 11 seconds (2.18 minutes)
APM: 224

Otherwise, here are all of the actions as I recorded them. Some notes, I counted airials as one input because i figure he uses the c stick. Everything else should go along with the rest of the theory. I did another fox because I thought it would be a good idea to have a legitimately pro fox in a high stakes match.

dash right
drop
jump
laser
laser
dash right
jump
neutral air
DI right
crouch
jump
Di right
dair
fast fall
l cancel
jump
dash right
crouch
jump
back air
l cancel
DI right
tech in place
shield
jump
dash left
dash right
tech left
jab (part 1)
jab (part 2)
dash
dash grab
dash left
dash right
short hop
nair
fast fall
l cancel
shield
jump
back air
l cancel (held for shield)
short hop
DI left
back air
l cancel
dash right
dash left
jump cancelled grab
up throw
jump
double jump
back air
l cancelled
dash left
fast fall
dash right
jump
back air
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
short hop
laser
jump
double jump
fast fall
shield
short hop
Di back
back air
shield
wave dash back
jump
DI left
fast fall
dash left
dash right
dash left
wave dash back
dash right
get up roll left
dash right
dash attack
dash right
dash left
jump
double jump
Di right
back air
fast fall
l cancel
dash right
fast fall
dash left
shield
wave dash forward
dash right
jump
double jump
Di left
back air
l cancel
dash forward
neutral air
l cancel
dash right
dash left
wave dash forward
dash left
dash right
jump
double jump
neutral air
Di forward
l cancel (held for shield)
roll back
short hop
Di back
back air
l cancel
tech straight up
dash left
jump cancelled grab
shield grab
up throw
dash right
jump
double jump
up air
dash left
wave dash forward
dash left
short hop
turn around laser
fast fall
dash right
short hop
laser
fast fall
shield
short hop
Di forward
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
dash attack
dash right
shield
wave dash back
dash forward
jump
double jump
Di left
fast fall
dash left
turn around
DI right
jump
air dodge upwards and right
fast fall
Di right
jump
up b
Di's the up b right
dash right
jump
double jump
up air
dash right
dash left
jump
Di right
back air
fast fall
l cancel
dash right
laser
laser
dash right
dash left
midair jump
fast fall
dash left
short hop
turn around laser
dash right
shield
short hop
fast fall
laser
dash forward
short hop
DI right
jump
forward b

total: 217

fast fall
dash right
charged running up smash
jump
back air
DI left
l cancel
dash left
short hop
turn around laser
laser
dash left
dash right
dash left
dash right
wave dash back
dash right
turnaround left
turnaround right
dash right
dash left
shine
jump
fast fall
dash right
dash left
dash right
jump cancelled grab
down throw
dash left
pivot right
spot dodge
jump
crouch
dash right
short hop
fast fall
turnaround
up tilt
dash right
dash left
short hop
fast fall
dash right
wave dash back
up tilt
dash right
jump
double jump
wave land
down air
fast fall
dash left
fast fall
shine
jump
nair
l cancel
dash left
dash right
dash left
wave dash in place
dash left
dash right
short hop
laser
fast fall
wave dash in place
dash left
dash right
jump
fast fall
dash left
shield
jump
fast fall
dash left
dash right
jump cancelled grab
up throw
jump
double jump
back air
DI left
crouch
dash right
short hop
fast fall
crouch
jab
roll left
drop from ledge
jump
forward b
DI left

total: 113

Fast fall
dash right
jump
up air
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
short hop
fast fall
dash left
dash right
dash right
jump cancelled grab
up throw
dash right
jump
double jump
up air
dash left
jump
back air
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
fast fall
dash left
dash right
jump
fast fall
back air
l cancel
dash right
dash left
dash attack
DI right
jump
DI right
up b
up b (straight up)
DI left

total: 43

fast fall
dash left
fast fall
dash left
dash right
wave dash forward
dash left
dash right
dash left
wave dash back
dash right
dash left
grab
down throw
up tilt
dash right
jump
neutral air
l cancel
charged up smash
dash right
jump cancelled grab
up throw
dash right
jump
double jump
up air
Di left
dash left
jump
turnaround laser
laser
laser
jump
double jump
laser
laser
laser
jump
laser
laser
fast fall
dash left
dash right
crouch
jump
fast fall
shine
jump
neutral air
dash right
running up smash
dash left
turnaround laser
laser
dash left
dash right
short hop
fast fall
waveland back
turn around
short hop
nair
fast fall
l cancel
jump
nair
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
dash right
short hop
down air
fast fall
l cancel
dash left
short hop
nair
fast fall
l cancel
turnaround
wave dash forward (into walk)
shield
wave dash back out of shield
jump
DI forward
fast fall
crouch
shield
roll left
DI left
Jump
DI right
forward b
DI left
jump
forward b

total: 115

grand total: 488 actions
match time: 2 minutes 11 seconds (2.18 minutes)

APM: 224

This is really interesting, cool stuff guys!

So what exactly is an effective APM? I might observe my own.

Strong_Bad said:

It depends on how technical you are. as you can see, Ken managed to be the best in the world with only 166, while other players can reach levels of 300 APM or so. Whatever works

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I see now. Oh, are you the same strongbad that commented on that hour long vid lol.

Strong_Bad said:

both of Cyclops' supers are mashable... not to mention standard viper beam for Cable.
i'm totally going to do this for one of my vids.

also someone needs to do this for m2k's marth or fox.

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Storms Hail is also mashable for some odd reason.

Also, lol this is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen no offense. Melee's apm can't even be closely compared to Starcrafts APM on any level.

Brightside6382 said:

Storms Hail is also mashable for some odd reason.

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Not true, it's random. Test it out sometime.

Brightside6382 said:

Also, lol this is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen no offense. Melee's apm can't even be closely compared to Starcrafts APM on any level.

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Did we say anything about starcraft?

ETWIST51294 said:

Someone could argue that, but I'm not the one. I tend to over think arguements over the internet so i don't even bother anymore. A smart smasher could argue this probably, but if I do it I'll just make myself look stupid.

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Pretty anyone knowledgeable will argue in Alpi's favor.

two words. no life.
nah i like this stuff <3.

im wondering... is a turnaround shine 2 actions or one? we should speculate how many APM is virtualy posible, then humanly possible.

TAS for possible, m2k for human possible

Rubyiris said:

Pretty anyone knowledgeable will argue in Alpi's favor.

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Yeah I've been getting more into games like SC and stuff now. Now I see his point.

LunarNOVA said:

im wondering... is a turnaround shine 2 actions or one? we should speculate how many APM is virtualy posible, then humanly possible.

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My vote would be for three. Down -> B -> Back. Four if you jump out of it.

LunarNOVA said:

two words. no life.
nah i like this stuff <3.

im wondering... is a turnaround shine 2 actions or one? we should speculate how many APM is virtualy posible, then humanly possible.

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More like boredom, than lack of a social life.

Jihnsius said:

Not true, it's random. Test it out sometime.

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really? I see people mash it all the time... are we doing it for nothing? lol

Brightside6382 said:

really? I see people mash it all the time... are we doing it for nothing? lol

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Pretty much. There are a lot of moves that look like they're mashable just because of the random aspect and it's a lot of work to test out whether or not they actually are.

I'm at c- on iccup in the current season and my Avg apm on bwchart is only like 133 as a terran only player lol. But i'm like 100% sure my apm in smash is at least 200 or more, its pretty comparable to SC I think. Maybe not at the super pro ultra level of progamers, but most of it is spam to keep their fingers warm so they can micro properly as admitted in some interviews. But its certainly comparable at most levels.

My apm might nearly hit 300 in some of my newer matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAR-lFqeadA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbc6lE0yaJU

some one should analyze one of these, if not I might cause i'm pretty curious.

eggm thats a pretty low apm =O especially for terran
im really thinking about getting back into SC
my apm was 180 for toss, 170 for terran, and 160 for zerg
i could break 200 when the opponent did a rushing build and I had to scramble with my workers =X
/brag

Yah it is pretty low. But my EAPM is usually 1 less or the same as my APM, i don't do any unnecessary spam. I also peak apm at like 250 in most of my replays. So I got the speed when I need it. Starcraft is really fun you should get back into it. SC and melee are my fav games of all time. xD I hope SC2 doesn't pull a brawl (aka suck and ruin the community of the 1st game).

My APM with Zerg back when I was C+ hovered around like 220.

Then I quit, go figure.

Someone should get me back into starcraft but I just don't find it fun anymore.

rock you edited the first post as zhu being under falco
he played fox in that match ;]

i would love to see jman's apm 4-stocking eggm LOL

in starcraft, you can never realistically move fast enough to do everything you want

on the other hand, you can regularly do that in melee

melee's effective apm is capped pretty low, if for no other reason than the lagginess of moves and only having one (or sometimes two) characters to deal with

in starcraft, you can input another command instantly after the previous one (assuming zero latency), and you can do this with a few hundred different units and buildings at once

i said this a few pages ago i'm sure (it would've been a while ago so i don't remember off the top of my head for sure) but it's preposterous to compare a game where you control one character on a stage that fits completely on one screen to one where you control 300-400 units on a map that's 300-400x the size of one screen

that's not saying SC is more technical than smash, but just saying that APM is a poor way to compare them

Very interesting Rock. Didn't read through it thoroughly I'm assuming APM means Actions Per Match tell me though, how are you using this data to help you progress your understanding of your game? Using APM to get an idea of how your game changes over time seems wild to me. Did you find any similar APM results with games you won and games you lost? Also factoring how long a match last have you broken your APM down to minute fractions and seen if they stack up to your other matches that are shorter or longer? I know it's a lot of questions. Hope you end up taking this somewhere. You and Phana have been shocking me with new ideas lately. Souf West FL don't fvck around anymore.

-S.FL is the best.

Yeah, those are good questions, and there are plenty more that I would love to see answered. Unfortunately, I just don't have enough data to trying and figure anything like that out. Maybe some day...

Oh, and thanks Joe, didn't realize that.


Statistical Summary:
Fox: Two Entries. Average APM - 262. Max - 301 (Axe).* Min - 224 (Zhu).
Falco: One Entry. Average APM - 228. Max - 228 (DaShizWiz).
Peach: One Entry. Average APM - 214. Max - 214 (Pink Shinobi).
Falcon: Two Entries. Average APM - 197. Max - 214 (Darkrain). Min - 180 (Isai).
Marth: One Entry. Average APM - 166. Max - (Ken).

Total Entries - 7
Average APM - 218

* denotes potential outlier

I am really surpirsed by the data collected so far. I've heard for years that Fox and Falco are the most technically demanding characters, but it's clear to see that the difference between characters at a high-level of play is minimal.

I don't see how this could help you if it isn't your match your reviewing. Maybe if your play style is similar to M2K but unless people are already doing it you guys should be reviewing your most honest matches and see where that takes you. Comparing to the pros is a nice idea. I wouldn't get to caught up into it though, I'd recommend you look at how you preform first.

WHAT THE FVCK!?! Per minute? Haha, maybe cause I play Ganon that sounds crazy. But then again you guys are calculating FF's and DI's. Well I'm off to see what I can learn from my vids. I'll toss what ever info I get down here if you guys are interested.

pockyD said:

in starcraft, you can never realistically move fast enough to do everything you want

on the other hand, you can regularly do that in melee

melee's effective apm is capped pretty low, if for no other reason than the lagginess of moves and only having one (or sometimes two) characters to deal with

in starcraft, you can input another command instantly after the previous one (assuming zero latency), and you can do this with a few hundred different units and buildings at once

i said this a few pages ago i'm sure (it would've been a while ago so i don't remember off the top of my head for sure) but it's preposterous to compare a game where you control one character on a stage that fits completely on one screen to one where you control 300-400 units on a map that's 300-400x the size of one screen

that's not saying SC is more technical than smash, but just saying that APM is a poor way to compare them

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I disagree with the bold part. How many times have you wished you could do some of the stuff in perfect control? Silent wolf is one of the few that can come close, but there's no way you can tell me anyone has "perfect control" over their character. If we could "regularly" move fast enough to do everything we want, then would could just powershield everything, and never lose. I agree that APM is not necessarily the best way to compare SC and smash, but that doesn't mean we can't prove something by doing it.

I would like for someone to make a TAS perfect control vid( much like the one on Youtube for Falcon) for Marth, so that I may compare M2K's APm from 2k7 to a perfect marth. I swear that the guys split second decissions and skillfull edge guarding ability mada him look frame perfect.

According to Brandon (HMW), M2K majors in frame data. I feel that m2k was near perfection w/. his marth, and it is said that no one has ever really seen m2k play at his most effective in tourney( FCD was the closest).

yea, fcd was so sick to watch

Watched half of one of my matches and said fvck it. Too complicated for something without and clear means of insuring improvement.

A TAS vid of Marth could be anything man. it can be 50APM since Marth has such an easy spike. It would probably be better to just get a few M2K vids.

Strong_Bad said:

using marth's "easy spike" to end matches quickly would result in a high APM because the match would be over more quickly, and thus a smaller divisor. a perfect control marth would be dding wavedashing ledgestalling shffing nairs and doing huge awesome combos anyway, no one watches perfect control for lame spikes :/

"doing everything we want," doesn't include perfect play, because that's ****ing stupid. the phrase "everything we want," is supposed to be taken with some logic; you have to be reasonable, since powershielding everything would require perfect reflexes (an impossible feat, even in Star Craft; that is, if that game requires reaction, which I'm sure it does), not technical skill.

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I disagree. It isn't reasonable to expect sc players to play perfectly either. i don't think you read the post I responded to. He said that SC players cannot do everything they want in a game of starcraft because of the limiting factor that is APM. Well guess what. my apm in smash is a limiting factor in how I play as well. Sure it isn't reasonable to expect perfect reflexes, but wait, isn't reasonable in SC either. Reaction is a part of technical skill. Timing is a part of technical skill. Moving your hands fast enough is part of technical skill. All is true in SC too.