SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

Speaking of Shiek, to what exstent can she Ftilt lock Lucario?

From what I understand due to Lucario not being a fast faller, he won't be filted long. I've never played on either side of the fence on that match-up.

I just ftilt twice to her standard finishers.....utilt or nair. I dont like taking a dair to the face.

50:50 Fox/Lucario =D ^_^ =]

Only if its rookie though...

So the matchup should be 50:50 Lucario/Rookie =D ^_^ =]

iRJi said:

50:50 Fox/Lucario =D ^_^ =]

Only if its rookie though...

So the matchup should be 50:50 Lucario/Rookie =D ^_^ =]

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What is it otherwise lol RJ? I was thinking the same thing.

phi1ny3 said:

What is it otherwise lol RJ? I was thinking the same thing.

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Lol, it is actually a 50:50 if the Fox player knows how to play properly. There are so few (And I really mean so few) that know how to play their character properly, and because of that it makes it seem less.

Okay then so are you suggesting 60:40 or 55:45 RJ?

F1ZZ said:

Okay then so are you suggesting 60:40 or 55:45 RJ?

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I am saying it is a legit 50:50. 55:45 for Lucario if you want to, but my personal preference is that its even.

I think all that's left after this is done is basically low tier (D-F). Almost to the end! Minus any necessary revisits...

Oh wow, we are atcually almost done. Hopefully we continue at this pace.

Here comes the part where lucario is ignored...

I'd say 50:50 fox, 60:40 sheik.
Also, what do you guys want to do next? I heard a request for Link, but is there another one (maybe we could do Ike as well, there's been a lot of disagreement from the Ike boards last time we went over the MU).

My vote goes for Ike and Pokemon Trainer.

50:50 sounds okay, but good luck trying to beat a camping/gimping Fox. Our combos work relatively well because Lucario is rather floaty in my opinion. I also understand you guys have some good shiz on us too, so I'm content with this ratio, although it's your guys' final decision.

um... what?

combos DONT work on floaty chars... ever wondered why you cant utilt lock luigi but you can do it to snake? haha

Lightning93 said:

50:50 sounds okay, but good luck trying to beat a camping/gimping Fox. Our combos work relatively well because Lucario is rather floaty in my opinion. I also understand you guys have some good shiz on us too, so I'm content with this ratio, although it's your guys' final decision.

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Yes Lucario is floatly but doesn't that make it harder/impossible for comboing?

Ill second PT, but Ike is just too easy of a matchup to merit discussion, Mario gives me more trouble than any of the remaining characters, at least I think, there doesnt seem to be too many left.

It makes it easier to set your attacks up imo, yeah you can't up-tilt lock, but I'm talking Fair>Fair. Snake is very easy to jungle, but only because of our up-air which beats everything he has. Otherwise he could airdodge straight to the ground.

djbrowny said:

um... what?

combos DONT work on floaty chars... ever wondered why you cant utilt lock luigi but you can do it to snake? haha

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Shiek can still tilt lock Lucario, difference is she can't do it like she can with Snake and others.

Shiek still has to get into range, so she will bait with needles and other such moves. Lucario's range makes it really hard for her to get in.

For Fox, dunno, I don't fight Fox a whole lot.

I'll agree with 50:50 fox, based on what I've read up.

Shiek should be 60:40 Lucario. It's the same reason Lucario has trouble with Marth, it's the range on the attack that make it a b*tch to get in on them.

~

If you guys wanna be cool, pick Link. :3

I will vote on Link, BUt can we start discussing on someone I can give info on???? *Yoshi*

So I think PT and Link are next, how's that sound?
I also heard a lot of "controversy" over the last time we went to the PT boards to discuss it (partially because I really disagreed with the idea that chairzard (lolol) had any slight advantage overall against lucario, like the fact that 'Zard can't deal with juggling as well as lucario).

Squirtle is probably the only one that gives Lucario any sort of real trouble, just because he's Wario's annoying Pokemon cousin.

Rockettrainer said:

Squirtle is probably the only one that gives Lucario any sort of real trouble, just because he's Wario's annoying Pokemon cousin.

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I'd agree with that.^

eh i find charizard the most problematic. with that stupid grab range and rock smash making short work of any slow SH aerial approaches lol

Charizard alone probably goes evenish with Lucario.

Squirtle alone gives the most trouble because he's good. He has superior aerial movement, he's fast, good bair and fair for offstage game/approaches/edgeguard, dair is pretty good, Water Gun for edgeguard, fast jab, utilt games, a guaranteed kill throw at higher percents, shellshifting for movement/mindgames, good overall priority...I mean, I could go on forever. The only major flaws he has are that he's light, his range is suspect against certain characters, he lacks raw killing power, and his recovery options can also be suspect. Otherwise, he's a pretty good character. If he were by himself, I would honestly see him around high/borderline top. Reflex's PT beat Lee Martin's Lucario a while back. This is saying something about Squirtle's potential.

I even considered maining PT at one point during the beginning of Brawl. But Ivysaur...yeah.

Anyways, whatever matchup is next, I'll have a patented fence of text ready.

Thanks for the discussion guys, feel free to hit up the Fox boards if you have anymore questions .

Rockettrainer said:

Squirtle alone gives the most trouble because he's good. He has superior aerial movement, he's fast, good bair and fair for offstage game/approaches/edgeguard, dair is pretty good, Water Gun for edgeguard, fast jab, utilt games, a guaranteed kill throw at higher percents, shellshifting for movement/mindgames, good overall priority...I mean, I could go on forever. The only major flaws he has are that he's light, his range is suspect against certain characters, he lacks raw killing power, and his recovery options can also be suspect. Otherwise, he's a pretty good character. If he were by himself, I would honestly see him around high/borderline top. Reflex's PT beat Lee Martin's Lucario a while back. This is saying something about Squirtle's potential.

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That's a solid summary of Squirtle.
Ivysaur? To me, he's just fodder.

And for Charizard, I'd say 50:50.
- Rock Smash: Super Armor, easy damage, kill potential. Expect a lot of this.
- Usmash: Strong, great range, don't challenge with dair: you'll regret it.
- Grabs: 'Zard's neck is really long. Pivotgrab is even worse. Dthrow can kill at higher percents.
- Fair: Outranges our fair, gimp potential.

Although we can pull some pretty nifty combos off on him, he can finish us pretty fast once he gets in. All of his smashes can kill us at around 100% and they all come out pretty quick. If he approaches with fair or rock smash, just space him with fsmash. The tip of his fair will graze you for damage, but it doesn't actually stun you. Just be careful though, a poorly timed fsmash can get punished by the super armor on his Rock Smash. Also, be careful about the range of his Dsmash because it's range is wider than expected.

I guess that's all I have to really say about him.

I like Charizard compared to the others.

I can see why Squirtle gets a lot of love, but I still think people overhype him compared to Charizard.

Charizard has more solid match-ups and doesn't get ***** by people who carry swords.

sorry been away, where are we in terms of discussion?

HK Donut of the Blue Fire said:

sorry been away, where are we in terms of discussion?

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We finished Pit and Fox, now we are moving on to Pokemon Trainer and Link.

Pokemon Trainer and Link
Are up!

When I saw that picture of Link I lol'd so hard. I will add my imput on these MUs later, playing some COD4 online.

It's what happens when your boards get badgered by mods lol.
jk, the mods are all good with us and stuff.

I'm doing Link first, because PT is basically three characters and would require three times as much effort...

Link:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Utilt: It's basically like Marth's utilt, but it also functions as one of Link's possible kill moves at higher percents. It covers a half circle radius around him. It can also be used as a combo starter.

-Dtilt: This move gives an upward knockback similar to utilt, so it's a combo starter. Be warned that it can spike you.

-Dair: This is probably his overall best kill move. It's basically a sex kick that points down. It lasts a ridiculously long time, has an insane amount of priority, and knockback during initial frames is beastly. This move can hit an opponent twice before it automatically stops. It has a huge amount of landing lag. It can be used for bouncing off projectiles, like a pogo stick.

-Uair: Same as dair but pointing up. It has slightly less knockback than dair, but it still sends you upwards.

-Fsmash: Another one of Link's kill moves. Consists of two hits, but both parts have decent knockback.

-Dsmash: You probably won't see this used too often but be aware that this move can apparently spike.

-Usmash: It's a multihitting move that can be used via DACUS. Unfortunately, it's multihitting nature makes it so that it's easy to SDI out, so you will rarely get hit by the last part.

-Gale Boomerang: This has a hitbox coming out but a windbox coming back. Can be used for damage, mindgames, combo strings, or just to annoy.

-Bomb: It's a bomb. It can be used for damage, disruption, mindgames, pressure, etc.

-Arrow: It's an arrow. Damage, camping, pressure, annoying, etc. It can be used for locking

-Spin Attack: His main recovery move. It has decent vertical recovery but poor horizontal motion. A grounded one can be used as a kill move, but it's no where near as good as it was in Melee unless it is fully charged.

-Zair: This is the third best of the possible four zair users in the game. It can hit twice, but it doesn't produce much knockback. This is also one of his primary recovery options.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Approach smart, because Link has several projectiles and his upclose game is pretty decent.
-Links may camp because of their projectiles. They don't want to take damage because damage means more knockback, which can lead to their death.
-Force Palm chaingrab does work on Link, but only at low percents. Keep this in mind.
-Link is heavy and a fastfaller, so he can get combo'd relatively easy at low percents. HOWEVER...
-Be careful about his dair. You CANNOT challenge it with uair. Same applies to his uair with Lucario's dair.
-Since Link's recovery is generally one of the worst in the game, you can expect to occasionally gimp an unprepared Link. If he is recovering from far away, consider Aura Sphere, or just chase him off the stage with fairs.
-Links won't grab unless they are certain they will catch you, but if they do mess up, punish them.
-You can ride Gale Boomerang as it is returning to Link. You can attack while riding it, so keep this in mind.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Assuming the Link does not manage to kill you early, you can certainly outlast the Link. Since all Lucario's moves gain increased knockback as he takes damage, you'll probably be killing Link pretty quick.
-His moves are relatively slow but can have deceptive startup times, like ftilt. Be wary of this when you are in your shield.
-While this match might seem easy, do not underestimate a Link. Most of his kill options give vertical knockback, and Lucario's vertical resistance is mediocre.
-Camping is probably the worst option, because a Link can outcamp you and wants to stay away from you.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-When recovering against a Link, remember that he has projectiles to interrupt your recovery attempts.
-He has a tether, so be prepared for some tether mindgames when a Link is hanging on the edge while you are recovering.
-Be careful when the Link has a Gale Boomerang out, because it can drag you back into the Link's range, possibly into a kill move. Also, be warned that it can mess up any recovery attempts.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Neutral: Link does good with projectile spam, much like Toon Link, so avoid open stages like Final Destination. BF is a pretty good starter, but Links tend to hate Yoshi's Island.

-Counterpick: Avoid Norfair, because most Links love this stage. It has platforms plus multiple edges for Link to tether. Some Links might try to take you to Brinstar because of it's low ceiling. Consider a stage that is lacking edges that could hinder his recovery options, like Frigate or even Rainbow Cruise. If you feel truly uncomfortable, then try Japes. Rushing water can be a Link's nightmare.

Overall: A pretty easy matchup overall, but Link does have some good things going for him. However, given his poor recovery, heavy weight, and fastfalling nature, it's very rare for Link to maintain his lead over a Lucario for very long, especially once the Lucario starts getting an Aura buff. Unless you are playing very sloppy, or meet an exceptional Link player, this matchup shouldn't cause too much trouble. My knowledge in the matchup is somewhat limited, but I will say ADVANTAGE (I'm not going to use numbers anymore).

*insert usual disclaimer about correcting me if I'm wrong, will make certain additions/corrections if needed, etc.*

Expect PT later this week, I won't say when.

Wait, are we sure that Link can't break out of FPCG for some odd reason? Because you can normally break out of it.
There's some cool things links can do, that aren't always seen but do have some interesting effects:
-the long stepped ftilt, it's walked but it gets some deceptive distance, which is good because ftilt is really normally telegraphed
-Gale lag cancelling. Basically it's where they throw a Gale boomerang before they use a laggy move (usually dair), and rather than suffer the lag from that, it cancels into the "catch" animation from the boomerang when it gets back.
-Gale guarding: I doubt it works too well against lucario, but be aware he'll try to use the boomerang for edgeguarding.
craq-walking: Basically he'll get this unorthodox movement pattern where he'll SH then slide a little across the ground before performing a move (for example, dsmash is pretty good with this).
zair is a good spacing tool, iirc, and he can still do it if he's holding a bomb (AD -> zair)
Links will sometimes take advantage of some nifty "hat tricks", there's a lot and most aren't all too useful, but I'd suggest glancing at the link board's list of them just to get an idea.
jab will sometimes be used to cancel to other things, like utilt.

This was stuff I picked up from when I was experimenting with Link, although some of it might be outdated here and there lol. Someone who plays link (like Red Ryu) clarify?

Edit: for the record, Misadventures of Flapjack imo is kinda dumb lol, I miss the old Cartoon Network with Toonami and such T.T

I did quickly look over both smashboards and AiB guides, but I figure that more people have more experience with Link than I do. I know I missed some stuff, but this will hopefully encourage people to actually discuss, lol.

I called the AiB link boards, hopefully they hover over here.

*Moved post below*

Ivysaur imo has a worst recovery, at least link's has good priority on his upB.

Link vs Lucario

Don't underestimate Link just because he's bottom tier, he has a bag full of tricks and skills he can use to make Lucario work for the stock.

First off, Link has three projectiles, arrows, gale boomerang, and bombs. Link's arrows move much faster than Toon links, even faster if Link quickdraws the arrows. If Link is SHing from a distance, he's probably trying to set up a quick drawn arrow. These will clash with BAS until higher percents. Full charged Aura sphere will beat these at any percent. Gale boomerang is a nice projectile that can mess up spacing on the return trip. Be careful of how Lucario uses his Up-B, is Link can predict this he might be able to gale guard him, using the gale boomerang to bounce off the stage and drag you away. Bas won't beat this til very high percentages, Full charged aura spheres will beat this out at high percents. Bombs are Links most versatile projectiles, the amount of techs around them is numerous. I'd advice reading this thread here believe it or not these techs around them aren't horribly situational and have many applications they can be used for. Bombs will cancel out any form of Aura sphere.

Other than projetiles, Link can also stand still with his shield up to block the aura sphere. This won't happen often as Lucario shouldn't spam fully charged aura spheres anyways.

Link has a good move in the form of Zair. It has two hit boxes and can space well to keep Lucario away. Zair also has some nice follow-ups some of which are kill moves if your not careful. Link's DAC covers long distance and can surprise a lot of people.

Link's main forms of Killing are Dair, Usmash, Utilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash. Thats a lot of kill moves, and all of these kill very well, the main ones to watch out for are Dair, Usmash, Utilt, and Dsmash due to Lucario having trouble with getting killed vertically. Don't use Lucario's Usmash on Link's Dair or Lucario's Dair on Usmash, Link's moves have more range. This can be applied to other moves such as Link's Fair and Zair.

Sounds like Link is awesome, well not quite. While Link has a a nice amount of moves he still has problems. Lucario can combo and string moves together at low percentages, this sucks for Link. Link is quite heavy, and as a result is susceptible to being juggled at low %. Link is also quite slow when it comes to start up and cool down of moves. Most of his attacks aren't safe on block against a majority of the cast. You can shield and punish a good bulk of his moves, Link relies on using his projectiles in conjunction with his moves to get his kills.

The main problem Link faces is his terribad recovery, he has the worst recovery in the game. While Link has the potential to live as long as Snake can due to his good momentum canceling, DI, and heaviness, this is all useless if he gets gimped. Lucario can Dair, chuck an aura sphere, Fair, bair, etc. While it's isn't as easy as it sounds, Lucario has quite a few options to gimp Link.

For stages, If I were Link I'd want to go to Norfair, Battlefield, or Final destination. Norfair is Link's best stage, it helps his camp game, makes it easier for him to get kills, and occasionally helps his bad recovery with lava, if I were to ban a stage against a Link I'd ban this one over the others. Battlefield and Final destination are recommended due to how it helps Link with his camping a bit more.

If I were Lucario I'd take Link to Frigate, he has a horrible recover, combine that with this stage and no grabbing on some sides and you get a very happy Lucario. Japes helps Link's camping a bit, but it helps Lucario more with the gimping he can do combined with the high ceiling.

Due to Link's bad recovery and Lucario's abilty to juggle him I'd rate this, 60:40 Lucario.

phi1ny3 said:

Wait, are we sure that Link can't break out of FPCG for some odd reason? Because you can normally break out of it.

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Link can break out of it like everyone else can.

phi1ny3 said:

zair is a good spacing tool, iirc, and he can still do it if he's holding a bomb (AD -> zair)

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He can also hold a bomb while doing a Fsmash or Usmash.

phi1ny3 said:

This was stuff I picked up from when I was experimenting with Link, although some of it might be outdated here and there lol. Someone who plays link (like Red Ryu) clarify?

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Here is a list of Link's techs, he's got quite a few of them

phi1ny3 said:

Edit: for the record, Misadventures of Flapjack imo is kinda dumb lol, I miss the old Cartoon Network with Toonami and such T.T

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I miss old Toonami...

As a Lucario:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for? Camping.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up? Juggle+Gimp

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup? Yes. He can gimp out crappy recovery.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game? Bombs cancel Auraspheres...even fully charged ones. Zair stops aerial approaches.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce? Avoid Norfair and Halberd, anything with a low vertical ceiling. Frigate is a good choice. We can't tether the right side and when the stage changes we sometimes get gimped underneath. Yoshi's is a good neutral, the shy guys screw up so many of our projectiles.

60:40 Lucario