Alus
Smash Champion
QFT hallelujah...
I remember saying this before and everyone was like " lolol nooooo" >_<
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
I remember saying this before and everyone was like " lolol nooooo" >_<
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah, that's when I realized what I meant by "camping" wasn't actually "camping" anymore lol.
CO18
Smash Hero
I like him. Ive been secretly training him on wifi to get him tourney ready O_O.
Im actually 2nd on the AIB ladder right now going all lucario lol
day-day
Smash Ace
Lol Yay, more Lucario's!
I need to post a vid of my Lucario though. Whose next on the match up list out of curiosity..
Aurasmash14
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 1,540
will there ever be a discussion of vs shiek combined with zelda?
RT
Smash Hero
Nice. Well, I guess you could use Lucario to cover characters Dedede can't chaingrab. Because they say those matchups aren't in Dedede's favor, lolololololololol.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Just a heads up on Sheik's Dacus:
An Aura Sphere or an ftilt > her dacus. [Fsmash could work too but I've never had the chance to try it]
Theres no hitbox to cancel anything out before the comes out Upsmash so she's really vulnerable before she gets near :>
I've even jabbed sheik out of Dacus on one occasion.
If you can learn to react to the Dacus sheik's chances of killing you have just gone down dramatically.
An Aura Sphere or an ftilt > her dacus. [Fsmash could work too but I've never had the chance to try it]
Theres no hitbox to cancel anything out before the comes out Upsmash so she's really vulnerable before she gets near :>
I've even jabbed sheik out of Dacus on one occasion.
If you can learn to react to the Dacus sheik's chances of killing you have just gone down dramatically.
You're doing it wrong.
RT
Smash Hero
To each their own opinion. In my experience, you won't win by camping. It just won't work, even in his hard matchups. Defensive is okay, but straight up camping...well, it's boring plus it doesn't work in my experience. But whatever, I have yet to see a campy Lucario that does extremely well.
Leafplayer452
Smash Journeyman
Punish Ftilt vs Sheik and EDGEGUARD LIKE YO MAMA TOLD YA
D. Disciple
Smash Master
should we ask some fox mains and shiek mains to share their 2 cents for this match up?
Moon-Doggie
Smash Ace
I dont have much Lucario Experience but from what I have seen, it's tough to put
a Lucario in a "Bad" position. For example when I grab I normally follow up with a
juggle from a D throw. My Uairs dont go through Lucarios Dair so pretty much
my Air game is tanked. Fox is heavy so in the begining you can do a few jabs into
a side b grab into yet ANOTHER side B grab and maybe even a third. As far as camping fox can out camp you so pick stages like Halberd where slopes prevent
some camping and if your lucky get on Lylat. As a Fox I personally enjoy Lylat
I dont know why Fox mains hate it but the tilts of the stage prevent camping.
To my knowledge if the Fox is aggro most likely he will be trying to bait punish
his way into your game. The two options most fox take are dash attack or
SH>Dair. Lucario can easily spot dodge a Dair and start a Utilt chain, Fox's
weight really hinders him there.
If the fox is defensive jabbing into grabs is a good way to punish since fox's sheild
really doesnt slide like others do. Using Both Lucario and Fox really helps a good
creative combo (This is due to foxes weight) that can kill is doing a Fair> Fully charged
Aura Sphere shot. The Fair Pops them up just enough so you can do the shot right after
a second jump instead of another Fair.
Mostly I believe you should approach fox from the air and space well to avoid grabs.
Fox wont have much to fight you with in the Air since 1) hes heavy 2) He lacks priority
in comparison to Lucario 3) His aerial game mostly involves juggling which is useless
due to the Dair and Fair if a Fox does an Fair approach Lucario has enough time
to anticipate it and DI away and wait for the Fox to be level where you can give him
an Fair. And even if you were to get grabbed, if you are smart enough
the fox will not be able to approach properly without putting himself in a
risky situation.
Ill add more when I think of it.
a Lucario in a "Bad" position. For example when I grab I normally follow up with a
juggle from a D throw. My Uairs dont go through Lucarios Dair so pretty much
my Air game is tanked. Fox is heavy so in the begining you can do a few jabs into
a side b grab into yet ANOTHER side B grab and maybe even a third. As far as camping fox can out camp you so pick stages like Halberd where slopes prevent
some camping and if your lucky get on Lylat. As a Fox I personally enjoy Lylat
I dont know why Fox mains hate it but the tilts of the stage prevent camping.
To my knowledge if the Fox is aggro most likely he will be trying to bait punish
his way into your game. The two options most fox take are dash attack or
SH>Dair. Lucario can easily spot dodge a Dair and start a Utilt chain, Fox's
weight really hinders him there.
If the fox is defensive jabbing into grabs is a good way to punish since fox's sheild
really doesnt slide like others do. Using Both Lucario and Fox really helps a good
creative combo (This is due to foxes weight) that can kill is doing a Fair> Fully charged
Aura Sphere shot. The Fair Pops them up just enough so you can do the shot right after
a second jump instead of another Fair.
Mostly I believe you should approach fox from the air and space well to avoid grabs.
Fox wont have much to fight you with in the Air since 1) hes heavy 2) He lacks priority
in comparison to Lucario 3) His aerial game mostly involves juggling which is useless
due to the Dair and Fair if a Fox does an Fair approach Lucario has enough time
to anticipate it and DI away and wait for the Fox to be level where you can give him
an Fair. And even if you were to get grabbed, if you are smart enough
the fox will not be able to approach properly without putting himself in a
risky situation.
Ill add more when I think of it.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
You guys know how the Fox v Lucario matchup works right?
You out-space and out-prioritize, but we out-camp. Your lil Force Palm chain does some good damage, but we don't have to approach, like... at all...
A good approach for you I would have to say is mainly Fair shield pokes to some jabs, from there you can do some grabs or whatnot. Maybe even throw out some AS if we're not looking.
I THINK we might be able to cancel your second jab with our jab, so I suggest grabbing/ftilt/force palm on the first jab. Be careful though, cause we Foxes don't need up-tilt anymore to combo, so your D-air won't work so much anymore
. We can Jab>Jab>Cancel into an insane amount of options and followups (considering its Brawl) such as Shine>Upsmash or Shine>DA.
If you're in the air be careful because we have some good options to keep you juggled involving our F-air. I think overall our moves are faster in the air, but you guys have the aura to help you out so space well.
ALSO, if we get you down over the edge you are screwed if you don't find a way around us. Gimping Lucario is REALLY fun because his up-b can't hurt as at all. Shine spikes, drill-shines, dair, b-air, all those good things you need to watch out for. Depending on your position you should expect any of these options, so just try to predict us first. (I can elaborate if you want.)
I don't remember the original ratio we came up with, but I would have to say this is in Fox's favor, but definitely not impossible for Lucario. You guys can definitely juggle us and your spacing can be annoying to break through. (Lucky for laser and shine eh?)
I would have to say 60:40-55:45 Fox adv.
Feel free to comment, disagree *cough*agree*cough*, or add on. I wasn't too serious in this post and I don't know ALL of Lucario's options so please feel free to call me out on anything.
EDIT: I think Moon-Doggie was referring to Fast Falling as opposed to weight. Fox is pretty "light" a.k.a susceptible to knockback.
You out-space and out-prioritize, but we out-camp. Your lil Force Palm chain does some good damage, but we don't have to approach, like... at all...
A good approach for you I would have to say is mainly Fair shield pokes to some jabs, from there you can do some grabs or whatnot. Maybe even throw out some AS if we're not looking.
I THINK we might be able to cancel your second jab with our jab, so I suggest grabbing/ftilt/force palm on the first jab. Be careful though, cause we Foxes don't need up-tilt anymore to combo, so your D-air won't work so much anymore
. We can Jab>Jab>Cancel into an insane amount of options and followups (considering its Brawl) such as Shine>Upsmash or Shine>DA.If you're in the air be careful because we have some good options to keep you juggled involving our F-air. I think overall our moves are faster in the air, but you guys have the aura to help you out so space well.
ALSO, if we get you down over the edge you are screwed if you don't find a way around us. Gimping Lucario is REALLY fun because his up-b can't hurt as at all. Shine spikes, drill-shines, dair, b-air, all those good things you need to watch out for. Depending on your position you should expect any of these options, so just try to predict us first. (I can elaborate if you want.)
I don't remember the original ratio we came up with, but I would have to say this is in Fox's favor, but definitely not impossible for Lucario. You guys can definitely juggle us and your spacing can be annoying to break through. (Lucky for laser and shine eh?)
I would have to say 60:40-55:45 Fox adv.
Feel free to comment, disagree *cough*agree*cough*, or add on. I wasn't too serious in this post and I don't know ALL of Lucario's options so please feel free to call me out on anything.
EDIT: I think Moon-Doggie was referring to Fast Falling as opposed to weight. Fox is pretty "light" a.k.a susceptible to knockback.
Moon-Doggie
Smash Ace
Yeah sorry about that I meant he falls fast, lol 7th lightest character but he
drops like a rock.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Lucario can't FPCG if you know how to break out of it, just for quick re-clarification. If you can't mash, it will be a problem.
spacing/zoning aerials are imo better than faster, more "followup" oriented ones in themselves. Especially with good options when getting back to the ground.
I agree that fox's metagame has gone to the point where the old "60:40 lucario's favor" statement has to be changed, but I'm not sure about fox having an advantage, although it's a very evenish fight imo. iirc, for stages, avoid halberd as lucario. imo I liek Frigate, Japes, and YI.
Fox used to be for me a "OMG HOWD HE DU THAT" sort of MU, once learning fox's strategy goes though it seems a lot more hardpressed to pressure a lucario who knows the ropes.
I hate fox's gimping options so very much. knowing every trick in the lucario recovery book is gonna help a lot (BAS while he's still onstage to make him put up shield and either run for the edge or stay, dair to stall, wallcling, fair/AS warding, "weaving", etc.)
imo it's a very even and pretty fun MU to play, I'd say 50:50 or 55:45 luca's favor because of stage picks (although I'm not too sure, I'd have to look up some more).
spacing/zoning aerials are imo better than faster, more "followup" oriented ones in themselves. Especially with good options when getting back to the ground.
I agree that fox's metagame has gone to the point where the old "60:40 lucario's favor" statement has to be changed, but I'm not sure about fox having an advantage, although it's a very evenish fight imo. iirc, for stages, avoid halberd as lucario. imo I liek Frigate, Japes, and YI.
Fox used to be for me a "OMG HOWD HE DU THAT" sort of MU, once learning fox's strategy goes though it seems a lot more hardpressed to pressure a lucario who knows the ropes.
I hate fox's gimping options so very much. knowing every trick in the lucario recovery book is gonna help a lot (BAS while he's still onstage to make him put up shield and either run for the edge or stay, dair to stall, wallcling, fair/AS warding, "weaving", etc.)
imo it's a very even and pretty fun MU to play, I'd say 50:50 or 55:45 luca's favor because of stage picks (although I'm not too sure, I'd have to look up some more).
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Oh.. do stage picks really come into matchup ratios nowadays? Whups. I thought they were just to help a guy out.
Anyways, I agree sometimes zoning aerials are superior, but Lucario doesn't exactly have the same speed of MK or reach of DK to actually pressure Fox. I have no problem punishing a Lucario (or running away) after he initiates an approach. You might have a better chance if we're on the edge, but honestly Lucario has always been a fun fight for me.
You would have to be EXTREMELY careful when getting back on the stage though, cause good Foxes won't give you a chance to even AS properly. Many times I've been either able to jump into the AS and shine it back into the Lucario (or drop down a lil further for the shine spike), or just jump over it and go into Nair, pushing Lucario far enough away to hog the edge. I think warding any potential gimps first, then stalling, and then wallclinging (if possible) is the best route to go.
Anyways, I agree sometimes zoning aerials are superior, but Lucario doesn't exactly have the same speed of MK or reach of DK to actually pressure Fox. I have no problem punishing a Lucario (or running away) after he initiates an approach. You might have a better chance if we're on the edge, but honestly Lucario has always been a fun fight for me.
You would have to be EXTREMELY careful when getting back on the stage though, cause good Foxes won't give you a chance to even AS properly. Many times I've been either able to jump into the AS and shine it back into the Lucario (or drop down a lil further for the shine spike), or just jump over it and go into Nair, pushing Lucario far enough away to hog the edge. I think warding any potential gimps first, then stalling, and then wallclinging (if possible) is the best route to go.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
One CG we do have is a pathetic one, but it's a uthrow (lol this sounds like a Melee discussion nao) CG at really low percents that leads to 9%+throw/utilt strings/FP strings/whatever it is, which does help a bit though for damage racking.
Yeah, I agree AS is pretty risky, but it does happen to occasionally come around as an option. If the lucario DI'd after a horizontal trajectory, imo he's going to do a lot better if he knows what he's doing than if he's going to recover below stage.
Edit: Oh yeah, and we've got that new Dash attack stuff from SSK that is supposed to work really well on fox too, which is arguably one of our best setup moves for strings at mid/low percents.
Yeah, I agree AS is pretty risky, but it does happen to occasionally come around as an option. If the lucario DI'd after a horizontal trajectory, imo he's going to do a lot better if he knows what he's doing than if he's going to recover below stage.
Edit: Oh yeah, and we've got that new Dash attack stuff from SSK that is supposed to work really well on fox too, which is arguably one of our best setup moves for strings at mid/low percents.
lucario is my second, he's hands down the coolest character in the game (higher than falcon on my list)
Im gonna start with the FP CG... this has never worked on me unless all the lucario mains iv been fighting are doing it wrong. i can jump out of the first or second FP by button mashing even though fox get's ***** by his fast falling acceleration this CG is avoidable.
In the recovery department they are equal on abilities to gimp each other due to the vulnerable recoveries
Lucario can just Fair fire fox, Dair, Uair anything once or twice and fox is doomed you must abuse the fact fire fox takes a millennium to charge
Fox however can easily, Gimp lucario we basically have all our specials (yes since im so awesome i gimp people with illusion and even Fire fox) and id say about 3 aerials 4 if your a ninja and all are easily landed
Shine for example we can shine stall a ledge to block your sweet spot then we can just shine again if that's not enough
im no uber genius on the lucario ground game seriously i just jab cancel setup to a never ending aerial rampage.
However despite the fact lucario has a solid air game fox's is better but only slightly, Fox's aerials will need proper timing to overcome your disjointed, lingering hitboxes that fool most players.
Fox will most likely be using Nair, Dair or fair as an approach heres a little disect
Your Fair ***** Our dair if you read it
Our fair beats all your aerials so id watch out for that one but if you see it coming i recommend a retreating Fair hitting with the Aura that shields Luca's hitbox
Nair is very easily avoided however it's harder to read if you see it i recommend a shield grab or if you have the port advantage a straight up grab will work with proper timing.
anyways back on track here these matches will be a competition of who has greater ground and aerial play gimping doesn't matter cause if your a good lucario facing a good fox most likely if either char is forced to recover using upB it's most likely gonna be a stock loss, each characters goal is to stay on the stage while getting the opposing player off (isn't that the goal in every match up?).
like phil said above it's all about the stage. Fox will most likely go for Halberd, or Delfino (atleast i go for delfino...)if not delfino then battle field or FD. So whatever Luca's best stage is use that but avoid halberd.
i really can't decide on the match up but ill have to say 50-50 cause really depending on the stage it could range from 60-40 fox to 60-40 lucario
EDIT: reading the posts above me... im a shining god (in the down b sense.. not the mythical sense) i can predict any sort of projectile whenever and i usually shine before they even start the move and most likely your usual fox main can do that to so AS is a High risk/high reward situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHC_kE6ebrk skip to 2:10 for an example
Im gonna start with the FP CG... this has never worked on me unless all the lucario mains iv been fighting are doing it wrong. i can jump out of the first or second FP by button mashing even though fox get's ***** by his fast falling acceleration this CG is avoidable.
In the recovery department they are equal on abilities to gimp each other due to the vulnerable recoveries
Lucario can just Fair fire fox, Dair, Uair anything once or twice and fox is doomed you must abuse the fact fire fox takes a millennium to charge
Fox however can easily, Gimp lucario we basically have all our specials (yes since im so awesome i gimp people with illusion and even Fire fox) and id say about 3 aerials 4 if your a ninja and all are easily landed
Shine for example we can shine stall a ledge to block your sweet spot then we can just shine again if that's not enough
im no uber genius on the lucario ground game seriously i just jab cancel setup to a never ending aerial rampage.
However despite the fact lucario has a solid air game fox's is better but only slightly, Fox's aerials will need proper timing to overcome your disjointed, lingering hitboxes that fool most players.
Fox will most likely be using Nair, Dair or fair as an approach heres a little disect
Your Fair ***** Our dair if you read it
Our fair beats all your aerials so id watch out for that one but if you see it coming i recommend a retreating Fair hitting with the Aura that shields Luca's hitbox
Nair is very easily avoided however it's harder to read if you see it i recommend a shield grab or if you have the port advantage a straight up grab will work with proper timing.
anyways back on track here these matches will be a competition of who has greater ground and aerial play gimping doesn't matter cause if your a good lucario facing a good fox most likely if either char is forced to recover using upB it's most likely gonna be a stock loss, each characters goal is to stay on the stage while getting the opposing player off (isn't that the goal in every match up?).
like phil said above it's all about the stage. Fox will most likely go for Halberd, or Delfino (atleast i go for delfino...)if not delfino then battle field or FD. So whatever Luca's best stage is use that but avoid halberd.
i really can't decide on the match up but ill have to say 50-50 cause really depending on the stage it could range from 60-40 fox to 60-40 lucario
EDIT: reading the posts above me... im a shining god (in the down b sense.. not the mythical sense) i can predict any sort of projectile whenever and i usually shine before they even start the move and most likely your usual fox main can do that to so AS is a High risk/high reward situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHC_kE6ebrk skip to 2:10 for an example
Alus
Smash Champion
^^^
Can I slap the **** out of this guy?
Can I slap the **** out of this guy?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^^why?
I dunno, I frankly want to see Rookie or some other foxes who I know have played lucario (I think Uchiha has in NW, but I really want to play him now).
I think the reason I like a stupid slow projectile is that if you get it reflected, you have enough time to shield to take damage or be out of the way via SH approach, usually in a more advantageous situation, it's that slow, it's why it's awful camping material, but not so bad pressure material.
I dunno, I frankly want to see Rookie or some other foxes who I know have played lucario (I think Uchiha has in NW, but I really want to play him now).
I think the reason I like a stupid slow projectile is that if you get it reflected, you have enough time to shield to take damage or be out of the way via SH approach, usually in a more advantageous situation, it's that slow, it's why it's awful camping material, but not so bad pressure material.
lol I'm tired
Alus
Smash Champion
eeeeegooooooooooo
he has [had] it!
Nah, you're cool... I just talk like this for...i dunno.go ahead im **** with match up discussion
Lightning93
Smash Champion
You can not slap my son. Yes DarkAura is my son. (Not really but I'd adopt him.)
DarkAura, I would have to say I don't quite agree with your statement on saying gimping game is equal. First of all, Firefox inflicts damage (unlike Lucario's recovery), and although easy to interrupt with Lucario's Dair, with proper DI you can pop yourself up for another recovery attempt at low to mid percents. However, if Lucario strings together a few fairs and ends with maybe a Dair, Nair, or AS we should be dead. You didn't mention anything about hovering Fair, Illusion, or shine stalling which can easily break many gimping attempts from Lucario. Not to say Lucario can't gimp Fox, which he can, it's just harder for Lucario than Fox.
And yes I agree phi1, Lucario will have a much better time recovering above the stage than below. And if Fox is still waiting on the stage and you have a chance, by all means cover your recovery with an AS. Just for the love of the aura don't telegraph yourself because bad Lucario's become so obvious with their AS it's not even funny and in the end means their own destruction. One thing I do suggest though, is use non-charged AS as opposed to fully-charged. Fully-charged is hard to avoid when recovering if reflected due to its speed and size, and is too risky imo. I think little AS would be best because you achieve a stun effect without risking your stock if the Fox decides to jump in front of you.
And please, would you mind elaborating on this Dash Attack stuff? Or provide a link or something?
DarkAura, I would have to say I don't quite agree with your statement on saying gimping game is equal. First of all, Firefox inflicts damage (unlike Lucario's recovery), and although easy to interrupt with Lucario's Dair, with proper DI you can pop yourself up for another recovery attempt at low to mid percents. However, if Lucario strings together a few fairs and ends with maybe a Dair, Nair, or AS we should be dead. You didn't mention anything about hovering Fair, Illusion, or shine stalling which can easily break many gimping attempts from Lucario. Not to say Lucario can't gimp Fox, which he can, it's just harder for Lucario than Fox.
And yes I agree phi1, Lucario will have a much better time recovering above the stage than below. And if Fox is still waiting on the stage and you have a chance, by all means cover your recovery with an AS. Just for the love of the aura don't telegraph yourself because bad Lucario's become so obvious with their AS it's not even funny and in the end means their own destruction. One thing I do suggest though, is use non-charged AS as opposed to fully-charged. Fully-charged is hard to avoid when recovering if reflected due to its speed and size, and is too risky imo. I think little AS would be best because you achieve a stun effect without risking your stock if the Fox decides to jump in front of you.
And please, would you mind elaborating on this Dash Attack stuff? Or provide a link or something?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
lolol it's the Witching hour!
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Uh ohs, I better find a burrow and hide before the pokémons come out.
Oh wait... I have a gun XD.
i set it under a situation "If the character is forced to UpB" (i said something like that) meaning if it strictly came down to it just being fox's upB.
Although i agree with your statement fox does give lucario a harder time, i forgot about most of fox's recovery... completely forgot about his other elements of recovery T_T
Lightning93
Smash Champion
That's fine, Fox is vulnerable when it comes down to using Firefox, but Lucario doesn't really have any moves with downwards knockback (at least what I know off), so overall I just wanted to point out the Fox's gimping game is better.
Aurasmash14
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 1,540
I think its around 50-50 on fox,
55-45 or 60-40 lucario adv on shiek.
55-45 or 60-40 lucario adv on shiek.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
The MU is 50-50. I've played a lot of lucarios and it always seems about even. It's a lot to it. usmash kills and we can gimp before aura gets too big. AS can force fox to up b which can get kills. We get punished hard if our recovery gets predicted. Fox can camp better... but yea, it seems about even
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
I agree with both of you regarding the Fox MU being 50:50. It seems even and Snowball gave great reasons why.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Unfortunately, most underestimate fair's gimping power, as it's pretty much one of the best WoP in terms of stringing, I really have wanted to stress to lucarios how good his gimp options are (dair practically beats out every recovery hitbox in the game if well spaced, and even if they can recover, especially with more telegraphed recoveries you can get boatloads of damage on them (Kevin's seen this before lol).
I think your best response for that is to try to go higher, and to start "foxcopter" before he gets to you, don't bother with trying to hit him with the fair.
The issues is that fox has better recovery options, but lucario's edgeguarding/gimping options are pretty flexible and pretty good.
I agree with 50:50, it's pretty even.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2008
- Messages
- 27,486
- Location
- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
- 3DS FC
- 0344-9312-3352
I've tinkered with this before, so just for the low down here's how that CG works.
The CG works on Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Wolf, and Fox. The CG is guaranteed til 12%, except for Wolf. Once you hit 12% it becomes a tech chase, for Wolf tech CG is a tech chase starting from the beginning.
If Fox or Wolf try jumping away, you can grab them again, if they shine they can get out if you go for a grab. If you shield the Shine you can grab them OOS and start again.
So it pretty much goes like this,
Grab+jump=Grab
Grab+shine=Escape
Shield+jump=Escape
Shield+shine=Grab
For Falcon and Ganondorf it's the same thing, except replace sine with Falcon kick and wizard foot. For Wolf as I said, it's a tech chase from the start.
If Lucario can somehow predict every move he can CG to 25%, after than Fox can jump out or do anything if you grab again. At this point you need to follow up with a different move.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
@ Phi1, I completely agree with you, I use a lil Lucario myself, and I know his potential for gimping. I just wanted to point out Fox's overall better recovery options, which you did too, so thanks!
50:50 sounds reasonable, but I would love to hear some more of Lucario's strong points in this MU to be fully convinced. Specifically, what he can do if we start to camp, and how he can beat Fox's speed.
50:50 sounds reasonable, but I would love to hear some more of Lucario's strong points in this MU to be fully convinced. Specifically, what he can do if we start to camp, and how he can beat Fox's speed.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
I'm leaning the match up towards Lucario a bit more than Fox tbh.
I've played some Foxes, I've tinkered with Fox too as well. He's got some nice moves on Lucario that can give him an advantage in terms of ground games.
However, if Lucario can get Fox above him, then it's a hard time for Fox to try to get back on the ground. I know he has his shine, to stop us from hitting him with fair, or if we try to jump at him. But this is where our tilts come into play, an angled ftilt if they are closer to the edge, utilt juggling into uair to another utilt, bait the shine then carry off with fairs. If the Fox is off the stage, I like how they can hover with fair, it's really good and it stops bas spam too, but if the Fox messes up and this has happen. You can spam bas for a bit, if they try to go under them, then jump with fair to stop them, then you can expect them to illusion or momemtum shift back to the stage in this case just be patient, time a smash attack of your choice or knock them away again with ftilt.
Dealing with Fox's speed is annoying though, you pretty much have to play a bait and punish game with that. Run up to him, jump in the air if you expect them to run at you, don't use an aerial just airdodge into them and jab them into set ups. It's easier said than done,
but overall I give this 55:45 Lucario's favor.
I've played some Foxes, I've tinkered with Fox too as well. He's got some nice moves on Lucario that can give him an advantage in terms of ground games.
However, if Lucario can get Fox above him, then it's a hard time for Fox to try to get back on the ground. I know he has his shine, to stop us from hitting him with fair, or if we try to jump at him. But this is where our tilts come into play, an angled ftilt if they are closer to the edge, utilt juggling into uair to another utilt, bait the shine then carry off with fairs. If the Fox is off the stage, I like how they can hover with fair, it's really good and it stops bas spam too, but if the Fox messes up and this has happen. You can spam bas for a bit, if they try to go under them, then jump with fair to stop them, then you can expect them to illusion or momemtum shift back to the stage in this case just be patient, time a smash attack of your choice or knock them away again with ftilt.
Dealing with Fox's speed is annoying though, you pretty much have to play a bait and punish game with that. Run up to him, jump in the air if you expect them to run at you, don't use an aerial just airdodge into them and jab them into set ups. It's easier said than done,
but overall I give this 55:45 Lucario's favor.
RT
Smash Hero
This.
Also, both characters have gimping potential but applying it is the hard part.
I'm sticking with the even-ish area. Is Fox a momentum-based character? He seems to be one to me for some reason...
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Fox is really mostly hit and run, but he has no problem building momentum if given the chance. There are multiple ways to get out of his combos, but not enough where Fox can't put himself in an advantageous position again. That's why punishing any way possible is the best option for you guys.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Trust me when I say lucario is a pretty good punisher, not entirely out of shield but in overall punishing.
I don't believe actually that he can jab before you put in the second jab, but I'm more than certain he can DI after the jab (except if you're going for plain AAA), which means you don't want to use it too often.
The biggest clutch I like with lucario's damaging game is that his stringing tools seem more than ideal for chars like fox, it might possibly explain why lucario (at least from my experience) does really well in damaging against spacies.
I don't believe actually that he can jab before you put in the second jab, but I'm more than certain he can DI after the jab (except if you're going for plain AAA), which means you don't want to use it too often.
The biggest clutch I like with lucario's damaging game is that his stringing tools seem more than ideal for chars like fox, it might possibly explain why lucario (at least from my experience) does really well in damaging against spacies.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ahhh, luc is pretty tough! hard to get close with sheik... he has a natural priority advantage with his disjointed hitboxes and stuff... tough battle for sheik >_< i know sheik is fast but... its not like lucario is slow ahhh
needles help, esp. with aura sphere, but they both go through each other so u dont wanna get hit by fully charged aura sphere while throwing a single needle
hmm other than that, i think its 55:45 or 60:40 lucario's advantage, if only because lucario has a hitbox advantage. it's a very close range battle so it's kinda hard to theorize
needles help, esp. with aura sphere, but they both go through each other so u dont wanna get hit by fully charged aura sphere while throwing a single needle
hmm other than that, i think its 55:45 or 60:40 lucario's advantage, if only because lucario has a hitbox advantage. it's a very close range battle so it's kinda hard to theorize
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Ya, I'd say needles help a lot in this MU.