A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

We did do Ike. 50-50

As for Yoshi, just put it down as 40-60. That matchup is balls.

Oh right, we did do Ike already... my bad >_>

Doesn't look like MrEh's too enthusiastic about Yoshi
If we do decide to move on to Yoshi however, here's a link to a thread from when the Yoshi's discussed Bowser. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236196

Don't bother reading through it, but i suggest skimming over to Page 5, there is a gigantic post by auroreon about the MU. I intend to do a writeup similar to it, though most likely not to that extent, trust me, it's big.

Yoshi throws eggs. He pivots grabs until he grabs you, then he chaingrabs you.


Nothing else needs to be said.

MrEh said:

Yoshi throws eggs. He pivots grabs until he grabs you, then he chaingrabs you.


Nothing else needs to be said.

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You forgot EggLay!

Don't worry MrEh. When i finish a writeup you'll see there is a whole lot more to the world of fighting Yoshi's.

4:6 Squirtle
65:35 Ivy
55:45 Charizard

That was Vex's opinions I've played the matchup some and I agree with what he said, we should post it at the PT boards and see what they think and then put it down

My opinion:

Ivysaur does better against Bowser than Charizard. Charizard in many ways is basically Bowser give or take a few fields but Bowser overall being better. Ivysaur on the other hand is legitimately difficult for Bowser to approach, as she has a better poke and spacing game, and one well-placed Bullet Seed can spell trouble for Bowser. Razor Leaf while a terrible projectile, also puts limits on Bowser's approach. Yeah true, she can be gimped pretty easily, but Bowser isn't exactly amazing at doing this provided Ivysaur doesn't have horrible DI, and it's not like Bowser does outstandingly better offstage anyway.

4:6 Squirtle
65:35 Ivy
55:45 Charizard

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Sounds fine to me.

I play a PT somewhat often and I'd have to agree, tempted to say 60:40 Charizard though as he gets raaaaaped by GR stuff.

OP updated with PT and A2ZOMG's G&W and Mario. *sigh* Yoshi now...

I loled at the G&W and Mario matchups though seriously has good bowser ever played a good yoshi?

Wait... people play yoshi?

Dair ***** Bowser

Heres a link to the thread if you want to read it all yourself
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236196


I went into the Yoshi matchup thread and they have discussed bowser a few bowser players discussed I will post some quotes from the threads and if you guys agree we can go ahead and put it up on the chart

Pro Yoshi

You guys realize how easy it is to force an air release? Bowser's pummel sucks. It's slow. Just mash like crazy in between pummels. You have enough time where, after his first pummel, if you start mashing like crazy, you can pretty much always force an air release since you'll break out before his second pummel starts. It just takes a lot of effort, but with a lot of effort, it's impossible for Bowser to force a ground release. Bowser is one of my secondaries, and I know how impossible it is to grab release anyone when they know this.

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Pro Bowser

Yes, Bowser can indeed chaingrab Yoshi and end it with an Fair. Yoshi isn't that vulnerable to Bowser's grab shenanigans, but they still work. I usually don't do it though, since it's usually not worth the risk to grab release someone like Yoshi, since his release animation is so weird. Personally, I just throw him and follow up. The Fair isn't worth it, since it's so weak and doesn't even kill. (provided you know how to DI, which I assume you do)

I used to play this matchup a lot with FingerP@ss, so I know how dumb it can be. Simply put, you can camp him, force an approach, and your chaingrab wrecks him. Bowser hits like a truck though, and his ground game is superior to yours. Your air game beats his, but then again, so does everyone's.

Don't rush his shield, otherwise you'll be hit with a Fortress OoS. (comes out on frame 6, invincibility on frames 1-5) This is the main reason why you can't get overly aggro against Bowser, since the Fortress will just eat up any attack you throw at it. Bowser can actually Fortress OoS a Nado. That's how good it is.

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I personally havent played the matchup but I have read alot on it and saw a few videos but I think its obvious its a negative matchup for bowser just write it down as 45-55 or 40-60

DAir doesn't "****" anybody that knows how to smash DI. The few times I've played this matchup I've always played it wrong (I keep getting hit by eggs and grabbed/egglay'd) so my input would be useless.

I can tell you though that prolonged firebreath is entirely useless because of Yoshi's double jump heavy armor, but flame tickles might help every now and then.

Forcing a ground release is easy. That being said, you can't really follow up with anything good.

I find it funny that Bowser and Yoshi are fundamental opposites. Yoshi has something that resembles good camping, while Bowser has something that resembles a good approach.

Just saying anyhow.

Yoshi is kind of an annoying character to face. Yoshi's superb aerial mobility allows him to harass poor ol' Bowzer with very little difficulty. On top of that, he has that chaingrab on Bowzer. It might lead up to fair offstage though.
On the other hand, Yoshi can't really kill except for his uair. Even his smashes only do so much knockback that they can't reliably kill except when close to the stage boundaries.
Patience and a keen eye are needed for Bowzer to win.
It's a fun and annoying matchup to do, weird.

Bowser's. You guys'll have to wait for the writeup i'm afraid, been a bit busy lately and I've got a tourney today. I'll get it done sometime next week.

Sweet. Win one for the Koopa King, WOO!

I'll have the writeup done sometime this week hopefully. Sorry for the wait guys.

EDIT: Alright well I've finished my writeup on the Yoshi matchup from my experience. It's fairly long but you can skip down to the final paragraph where I've nut-shelled the entire matchup. Please tell me what you think, speak up if you have any questions or problems with my writeup and correct any mistakes I've made or if you want me to change the layout or something. Hope you guys like it.

Bowser vs. Yoshi. An Ixis opinion.

Some things to note before I begin:

- Yoshi has the fastest air speed in the game.
- Yoshi will not be KO’d by the usual moves until upwards of 140%.
- Yoshi has an air release Chaingrab on Bowser to the end of the stage which can result in a Fair or Dair spike.
- Bowser CANNOT Chaingrab Yoshi-ground or air release- nor follow up any throws.
- Yoshi’s Pivot Grab is not to be underestimated.

Right well, where do I begin? This is actually a pretty weird matchup, but it’s also one of my most enjoyable. First of all, there are two kinds of Yoshi players I find: There are angry Yoshi’s, those who often rush into the match without thinking like an angry old man wielding a crutch, and there are more cautious, safe Yoshi’s who look to abuse their mid-long range weapons and strengths. The former are bad players who don’t know what they’re doing, the latter is where things get tricky. Bowser’s have nothing to fear from aggressive Yoshi players, why you ask? Fortress OoS is just one of multiple reasons.

Bad Yoshi’s who are unfamiliar with this matchup will see a massive target and they will lunge like an Owl on a mouse, and at first you may be overwhelmed by the onslaught of poorly spaced Bair’s, surprise dash attacks, Ftilt’s and maybe a silly Dair or two, but once you catch on, the tides quickly turn. Bair is one of Yoshi’s best moves, it’s a quick multi-hitter that can be auto-canceled when short hopped; fortunately it can be shield-fortressed and eventually the Yoshi will come to realize that it is not the saving grace they may have expected it to be at first. Fortress OoS is not our only answer though, Flame breath (preferably spaced) and up angled Ftilt also do the job just fine against it, and aggressive Yoshi’s will quickly have to switch tactics in order to get in, something Bad Yoshi’s will not be able to do as they know no other tactics. This is why I say we have no problems against aggressive Yoshi players, once we clock on to their cheap tactics they will pose little threat as all of Yoshi’s approaches can be answered with shield-Fortress, tilts, Flame Breath and Pivot grabs.

Aggressively is not how Yoshi’s should approach this matchup. Enter the cautious Yoshi player, one who has most likely read auroreon’s post on page 5 of the Yoshi v Bowser thread in the Yoshi boards and is aware of Bowser’s strengths and how to counter them. Yoshi’s should be playing this particular matchup patiently and try to lure Bowser into their pivot/grab or Egg Lay (referred to as EL from this point onwards) setups. There is a perfectly good reason for this, Yoshi cannot beat Bowser on the ground, we outrange them, out-prioritize, we even outspeed them (Jab ftw); so, in what particular area’s does a Yoshi trample us Koopa's? Why in the air of course, and also offstage.

It’s difficult for Yoshi to approach Bowser safely, so what better alternative is there then to bring us to them, and they have the perfect tool to do this, Eggs. The Egg Toss (ET), while not exactly a laser, gets the job done in this matchup. Because of its trajectory, Yoshi’s ability to control it, and Bowser’s gargantuan size, the move is borderline impossible to avoid, what are your options here. You could either spotdodge the move, Powershield it, neutralize (clank) it with a well timed, angled Ftilt… or Flame Breath it. As for the best option, that all depends on the distance between you and the camping dino, but you’ll find that turning to Powershield is the quickest, most reliable option. Not confident in your powershielding abilities? Well you’d better learn it now or you’re in for a world of hurt; you can spotdodge, but this is only good if there is a lot of distance between you and Yoshi, otherwise the animation will be punished by another ET or a dashgrab, and trust me you don’t want the latter coming your way.

ET is the perfect way for Yoshi’s to draw Bowser’s into coming close, after all, there’s nothing else we can do. They don’t want you in their face though, at a certain distance they’ll change tactics and try something else depending on your actions. Grab related moves are Yoshi’s most effective tools on Bowser, why? Because we Bowser’s shield more often than other characters and Yoshi has the right tools to deal with this.
Double Jump Canceled Egg Lay (DJCEL) is just one of these tactics to punish shielding, incapacitate you and setup for another move; it’s hard to react if you see this move coming but try to spotdodge it, we can’t force Yoshi back with a tilt or jab because of the Super Armor (SA) on the move, hence the DJC beforehand. Yoshi’s are smart with the way certain characters or people break out of their eggs, so try to mix-up the timing on when you’ll break out or watch to see what they do next before deciding when you want to come out. Some Yoshi’s may want to build more damage by attacking you in the egg, others may retreat and ET from afar once more, and some may even predict your break out and punish you again with an aerial reverse DJCEL, that’s not common though so it’s not something you should be too worried about.
They could also revert to a Pivot/dash grab depending on how close you are to them, both being very effective against Bowser. While you’re busy regaining your composure after dealing with an oncoming egg, they can follow up with a grab that more often than not catches you when you least expect it. Yes, Yoshi can air release regrab (rg) chaingrab (cg) us, to the end of the stage and then attempt to get an early gimp with a sweet spotted Fair or Dair. Try to mash buttons and get out as quick as possible or force a ground release, they need to buffer their dashgrab in order to catch us again so if we screw with the release timing they might mess up which could result in us punishing a failed dashgrab.
Good Yoshi’s aren’t dependent on this cg though, the character has been stereotyped to seem totally dependent on this gimmick but I can assure that Yoshi can be quite dangerous without it. Just like us Bowser’s are not reliant on our cg, it’s just another option. Yoshi’s pg is fast so watch out for it, and remember we also have a good pg. If you have managed to get cg’d by Yoshi and are at risk of being spiked I suggest you mash upB and try to Fortress back to the ledge as quick as possible, if you wait too long the Yoshi may go for a Dair which will spell your demise, the Fair however isn’t guaranteed and they won’t catch you most of the time.
Another thing I feel I should mention here is Yoshi’s Dtilt. Watch out for it, it’ll probably catch you off-guard at least once or twice, it has range that rivals our own tilts and Yoshi is crouched to the floor when the move is in motion, which means our Ftilt will go right over his head if he is crouching. If you are in range of Yoshi and wish to Ftilt him (maybe a jab is just out of reach here) make sure you angle the tilt down, to ensure that you don’t get into this silly situation. I repeat, angle your Ftilt’s downward when trying to hit Yoshi with it.

You may be wondering why Klaw hopping (KH) has not been mentioned as a countermeasure to the ET camping game. If you were, slap yourself in the face now. Because of the trajectory of a standard ET, the large hitbox and Bowser’s massive character model, Klaw hopping won’t be getting you around eggs anytime soon. In fact, Klaw Hopping isn’t as effective in this matchup as it might be against say Ganondorf. It’s great when you’re fairly close to Yoshi, but in mid-long range distances? One ET will quickly bring you down to the ground and could lead to many situations we’d rather avoid.

Whatever options a Yoshi turns to will depend on how you react to their ET. Bowser defeats Yoshi on the ground, but this doesn’t mean Yoshi can’t get in or fight back. Sometimes the most simple of setups can catch you, and you’ll be in a world of hurt. Short Hop (SH) Bair to Utilt or something similar (such as Jab cancel to Utilt) is a good combo Yoshi has on us and great for getting us into the dreaded aerial field. I’m not sure what to tell you, just try not to let it happen, Bowser’s blind spot is definitely underneath him and Yoshi can exploit this, especially on a stage like Final Destination without platforms for us to fall back on for Klaw hopping. Our Dair, Nair and even the Bowser Bomb are no match for Yoshi’s ET or Uair, our best bet is to move as far as possible and try to catch him with the Klaw if he gives chase. There is the chance that he will not give chase though, and simply revert back to Egg Tossing. If this is the case, then i'm sorry but we're back to square one.
Yoshi’s aerials defeat all of ours in pretty much all departments with the exception of Fair. It is for this reason why simply falling back to the ground with a possible Klaw on a poorly spaced, incoming aerial is best for when we’re up above. There may be the off chance we could hit them with Nair, Dair, Bair or DownB-again as a result of poor spacing or bad prediction-but these won’t work multiple times and shouldn’t be relied on. Avoid aerial combat as much as possible, of course the simple stuff is just fine, SH Fair, Klaw’s, Uair chasing etc. but you’ll want to stick to the ground for the most part, so keep things short hopped and avoid Double Jumps where they’re not necessary.

The ledge is another field that deserves a bit of attention as it’s pretty important for both characters in this matchup. Depending on the circumstances, getting back from the ledge can be quite difficult against Yoshi. If they decide to space ET then there’s not much we can do aside from jumping from the ledge to try and get back unscathed. There’s also the chance we could get hit by an egg, which Yoshi can follow up with a Dair in an attempt to gimp us, if you find yourself amidst a Yoshi’s Dair over the ledge try and DI up and towards the stage to get out of it, or if the Yoshi is just about to Dair or Fair you, try and Fortress as quick as possible to override it. If they try to Dtilt you to hit you off the ledge go for a getup attack (below 100% of course) or jump up from the ledge again, the move comes out quick so don’t attempt a ledge Klaw.
The other side of the coin is a strange story. We have good tactics against Yoshi on the ledge but we’ve got to know what to do and when to do it. Yoshi has an edge canceled Egg Toss (ECE), I will address this now: He can ET on the ledge and grab the ledge afterward, it’s surprising, it’s annoying and by god it will happen so you better be ready for it. Some Yoshi’s usually do this a total of three or four times before making an attempt to get back up to the stage as it becomes dangerously more difficult the more its used and may result in an accidental SD. The best thing to do in this situation is-rather than powershielding them- use Ftilt to clank with the eggs. Attempting to Powershield at that range is far too risky and it’s safer to turn to Ftilt to clank with the eggs at this point. If you are really close to edge, you can predict an ECE and counterattack with a Dtilt or down angled Ftilt which may hit Yoshi in the ET animation and get him off the ledge for a possible KO. Flame Breath also works in this situation as it breaks the eggs and may hit Yoshi on the ledge and remove his DJ for a quick gimp, but it wears down after a short time and is very slow on startup, there is also the chance that Yoshi will abuse the Super Armor on his DJ to pass right through Flame Breath and make it back safely on stage… and punish the revolting drop lag of Flame Breath; it’s unsafe unless very well spaced and not as reliable as the Ftilt so I don’t recommend it over the former.

Offstage is a pretty simple, predictable scenario. If we are returning to the stage (perhaps after falling victim to an FSmash) we try and recover from mid-high levels. Do not recover low, it is far too risky and we can easily fall prey to Yoshi’s Fair or Dair. Yoshi can Fair us at mid levels, but we have an answer to that, the Klaw. Well timed Klaw’s will eat Yoshi’s Fair for breakfast and bring us back to the stage… or cause a Bowsercide, it’s your call (most of the time anyway). If we recover high it limits Yoshi’s options, he could attempt to attack us with a Fair or Nair which we can Klaw through if done correctly, or he could attempt to go for a Uair or an ET, both of which can be easily air-dodged.
If Yoshi is the one recovering the stage, we could follow him offstage for a Fair/Nair attack, but that’s relatively unsafe and can only be done if he is close enough, we suck in the air remember? But chances are Yoshi will throw an egg or two if we’re waiting by the ledge, those can be dealt with by quickly clanking or powershielding them, then it’s up to his DJ to get him back. If he goes for the ledge, obviously grab it before they do or tilt him. If he recovers high-depending on how well you know your opponent-USmash, Utilt or aerial Klaw are the best things options, or if you’re feeling brave you could try a Uair, or bait an airdodge with a full hopped Uair and hit him with Fair or another aerial if he’s close enough. Personally I prefer waiting patiently for an airdodge and either going for Utilt or a pg depending on our positions.

Yoshi’s KO potential, while not as impressive in comparison to other characters in similar tiers, should still be feared. Never forget that Yoshi can still gimp us offstage with his blasted forward and down aerials. His best alternative KO moves would be FSmash, USmash, Uair and the Yoshi Bomb (DownB); good Yoshi’s will land these. USmash is fairly deceptive and swings all the way around (like our Utilt) and KO’s uncharged at around 150% or so fresh on FD. FSmash is similar, but aims to KO toward the sides as opposed to upward, and can do so much earlier without DI, so make sure you aim toward the top corners of stages to survive longer. Very good Yoshi players can also space this move with their infamous character exclusive AT known as the Dragonic Reverse which I will address at a later point.
Then there’s Uair, it isn’t as powerful as our own but it is still mighty strong and can KO from the early-mid 100%'s if we’re caught pretty high in the air by it. It may be predictable and easily air dodged but god dammit don’t say I didn’t warn you if you fall victim to it and get KO’d at a stupidly low percentage. It is quick and powerful, we cannot challenge it with Dair/Nair or DownB so don’t even try it, spaced Klaw’s counter it though, but a Yoshi shouldn’t be going for it unless he in directly under us. It can also be short hopped and auto-canceled, something to note.
Now for the Yoshi Bomb: It is better than our very own Bowser Bomb. It can be jab canceled just like ours, it also has an initial hit that combo’s into the second hit… unlike ours which has the former but not the latter, it is not lacking in hitboxes like ours as they cover the bottom and sides of Yoshi’s body whereas ours only swathe the bottom of Bowser and are still pathetic, the Yoshi Bomb also has stars upon landing on the floor and coupled with relatively short ending lag make punishing it very hard… unlike ours which suffers from no landing protection and the most horrific ending lag ever, lastly the Yoshi Bomb slides down slopped terrain, making it far more versatile, abuse-able and totally un-punishable on certain stages… unlike our very own Bomb where we do not get the Luxury of sliding across slopped terrain and we must sit where we land for five second while the enemy prepares a counterattack. The trade-off is that the Yoshi Bomb has a tad less knockback then the Bowser Bomb… that’s it. It’s still very capable of KO-ing and a threat in the air and on the ground.
Exactly how the slight decrease in knockback compared to our bomb is a fair trade-off is beyond me but at this point in the third installment of the acclaimed Super Smash Bros. franchise of fighting video games I have come to accept that there is little point in questioning the decisions made by Masahiro Sakurai and the Smash development team. Point is the Yoshi Bomb ***** grapes. It KO’s, in the air and on the ground, and he can cancel his jab into it so watch out.

Next I’ll bring up Yoshi’s shield; or as me and auroreon like to call it, the cage. It cannot be shield poked and slides around a bit when hit with high knockback moves. The trade-off is that Yoshi is completely trapped; he has no options OoS except to spotdodge and cannot even jump OoS, it is a terrible curse for a character that does not deserve it and Yoshi’s won’t be shielding often like other characters. If a Yoshi is shielding then using the Klaw is a good answer as is DSmash (if you’re close enough). Because of this terrible burden good Yoshi are more inclined to spot dodge in certain situations rather than shield, learn habits, predict and punish.

Now I’ll write a small part about the Dragonic Reverse (DR). It’s not something that should be taken too seriously unless Yoshi’s master the move and implement it into their game. You probably won’t come across one who uses it but there is the chance that you will so it’s worth mentioning. The DR is essentially… well, a wavedash. It is very difficult to perform which is why many Yoshi’s gave up on the move and dismissed it as unviable before even trying to learn it, but some do use it, not often, but they do. It’s surprising and can leave you bewildered but stand your ground. They can use it to space their longer ranged ground moves such as tilts and even Forward or Down Smash. I was once tech chased across Final Destination by DR’d Dtilt’s, its pretty mind boggling.

Yoshi is a strange character with some fairly wacky movements but we can at least fight him competently. While some of our strengths are null and others countered we can still put up a good fight. The usual stuff works like a charm, including jab cancels and tilts at the right distance. Yoshi is fairly heavy and one of those characters that won’t die to the Klaw early with good DI, it is for this reason why the Klaw plays much more of a damaging move in this matchup as opposed to a KO move, as Yoshi can survive this move with good DI over 170% on FD and over 160% on the other neutrals (bar Battlefield). Other ways to damage Yoshi are the usual flame breath, jab cancels and grabs. Flame Breath not so much though, in this matchup it should not be relied on, Yoshi is quite heavy, yes, but remember he also has SA on his DJ which means he can DJ through Flame Breath using SA to escape and punish, this doesn’t mean Flame Breath is useless, just don’t use it for extended periods of time. Jab cancel to full jab/Klaw/dashgrab when he is close to you and jab cancel to Forward or Down tilt when he is out of the other moves reach.

Grabbing Yoshi deserves its own paragraph. We do not have a Chaingrab on Yoshi. We cannot follow up any releases on Yoshi. We cannot follow up any throws on Yoshi. You may attempt to cg Yoshi once or twice a match if you feel you will get away with it but it is NOT guaranteed so don’t act like it is. Pummel then throw Yoshi depending on the current situation, you can Dthrow Yoshi if you’re both center staged and attempt to follow up or possibly tech chase, or you could Uthrow if you want to and try to follow up with… something. Fthrow and Bthrow are best if you want Yoshi in a certain position or to get them off the stage or any similar situation, throw them into a stage hazard or something. Point is, chaingrabbing is out of the question.

Aside from Smash attacks, Dtilt is probably our best move for KO-ing Yoshi, Ftilt may be a bit too decayed when the Yoshi is within KO range and it’s the next best alternative, it also hits Yoshi twice guaranteed at very low percentages if he is close enough by the way, a nice amount of damage from the go is always welcome. Hitting twice also means in rare situations the second swipe could hit through Yoshi’s SA if they DJ, it’s not a common scenario but it can happen. Utilt is a good option too, especially through platforms, KO-ing fresh at around 120%ish on most neutrals; USmash also does a similar job but isn’t as quick or efficient, it can be used to punish spot dodging on a platform though so don’t count it out. Don’t forget about FSmash on the ledge, punishing spot dodges with DSmash and surprise Bowser Bomb’s in certain situations. Fortress also KO’s fresh at around the 150% mark, it’s a decent revenge KO move.

Our ground game demolishes Yoshi as it does with many other characters. We can wreck Yoshi with tilts and eat a lot of his moves with Klaw to build up damage quickly; we outrange Yoshi and outprioritize in many cases. We also survive to ridiculous percentages so Yoshi should and could go for a gimp at any time offstage. The extreme pro’s stop here though. Yoshi outcamps us, and while it’s nothing on the level of say Falco, the Egg Toss is still awkward to deal with, messed up power shields or even successful ones can often result in a grab, and grabs from Yoshi turn to chaingrabs. Egg Lay can be difficult to deal with, not because it’s particularly threatening but because it ruins whatever flow Bowser had going and puts him back to square one. Bowser also cannot chaingrab Yoshi for any extra damage and while it may not seem so bothersome right now, when you factor in that Bowser also cannot follow up any throws or releases grabbing becomes pretty old, pretty quickly, and while you hold Yoshi in your grasp you quickly realize you should be somersaulting through the air with the rainbow colored pest underneath your herculean body.
Both characters have strengths over one another, but its Yoshi’s harsh chaingrab, flexible projectile, shield punishing capabilities, surprising tolerance to even some of Bowser’s strongest KO moves, Super Armor and his inability to be chaingrabbed by Bowser which leads me conclude that-as close as this matchup is-Yoshi is at the slight advantage. 40:60 is too much of a stretch in my opinion. 45:55 is the closest to an accurate ratio.

Stages that work well for Yoshi:

Neutral

- Final Destination is the stage the ban in serious play. Yoshi has far too much space to chaingrab and egg camp, not to mention the wide death zones allow Yoshi to survive just a little longer than other neutrals. Stay away from this.
- Yoshi’s Island is Yoshi’s best stage, sloped terrain in certain places on the field and a massive tilting platform allow Yoshi to slide about the stage, bombing like a madman, and you will quickly find that it is a pain in the *** and makes things oh so much more difficult. The ratio stays the same because while Yoshi becomes harder to hit and tougher to fight, his chaingrabbing is limited here thanks to the size of the fighting platform and the slopped terrain once again. The ghost helps also, and the side of the field offstage means we can DI a Fair spike and tech the wall, allowing Bowser to survive a potential gimp. It may be impractical to some, but the option is there

Counterpick

- Frigate Orpheon Limits Bowser’s abuse of shield-Fortress because of stage turning, as well as limiting his recovery on field 1 because the right side of the field has no ledges to grab. The stages are also small meaning there will be a lot of air time and offstage which is not something we want. Egg Lay is tougher to deal with here.

Stages that work well for Bowser:

Neutral

- Battlefield . Come to this place against Yoshi, it is your best friend. This stage carries so much influence for Bowser I say it knocks the matchup ratio to 50:50, it broadens Bowser’s options while limiting Yoshi’s further. With platforms comes Bowser’s ability to abuse the Klaw much more to get around the stage, Klaw cancel through platforms and such, Flame Breath from on top of a platform, whatever you wish. The platforms limit Yoshi’s egg camping to a very respectable degree; they mess with Yoshi’s chaingrab and leave Yoshi in a sticky situation if he is standing on one with Bowser underneath. He cannot shield Uair or USmash; if he does he will be pushed off the ledge allowing a free setup for Bowser (tilt ahoy). The top platform also allows Bowser to manoeuvre a successful Klaw onto it, bringing them both much close to the upward death zone, making the Klaw a much more viable KO move here.

Counterpick

- Brinstar has abuseable stage pieces for Bowser’s tilts and smashes. The stage terrain prevents successful chaingrabbing from Yoshi and the acid occasionally prevents spikes and gimps.

I think we should stick with what ixis has said and move onto the next character. It's obvious you have experience in the matchup

It's been quite a while since I've played a good Bowser, but I'll share what I know. ^.^

I wouldn't recommend using the F-smash too often. It will most likely result in you getting released grabbed to oblivion.

The D-smash is actually pretty useful when Yoshi is coming back to the stage, but you'd have to predict where Yoshi will land for this to work. If you miss, you'll probably get grabbed or B-air combo'd.

Never underestimate Yoshi's tounge here. I don't know if Bowser can outspace it or not, but it won't matter because Bowser uses parts of his body to attack unlike say....Ike or Lucario. Basically, if any of your physical attacks come in contact with that tounge, you're screwed, so be mindful of that.

I wouldn't recommend using your B-air for anything except edgeguarding. Doing so anywhere else will get you *****...Hard. lol Your D-air however is pretty reliabe as long as you don't miss. That shockwave will push us back far enough to where we cannot sheild grab you (I may be wrong about this, but I think this is accurate.)

I hope this helps.

Inb4massivereply.

Note: Yoshi does not have Super Armor on his DJ. It is Heavy Armor, akin to Snake's cypher.

Yoshi has invincibility on his head during Usmash, Fsmash, and Dash Attack.

Ixisnaugus said:

Right well, where do I begin? This is actually a pretty weird matchup, but it’s also one of my most enjoyable. First of all, there are two kinds of Yoshi players I find: There are angry Yoshi’s, those who often rush into the match without thinking like an angry old man wielding a crutch, and there are more cautious, safe Yoshi’s who look to abuse their mid-long range weapons and strengths. The former are bad players who don’t know what they’re doing, the latter is where things get tricky. Bowser’s have nothing to fear from aggressive Yoshi players, why you ask? Fortress OoS is just one of multiple reasons.

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There are many playstyles for Yoshi, and good ones can mix and match the camp with the aggro. The type of aggression you described is the bad kind. A Yoshi who decides to go on the offensive in this Mu will be utilizing DJCEL mixed up with bairs. DJCEL, when spaced properly, will beat everything but a spot dodge. Back air will beat spot dodge. Back air can also be used to pass through and Nair behind you, which is generally safe. I'm not sure if this is safe against Fortress, however, just putting it out there.

and maybe a silly Dair or two

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Dair is pretty godly against large targets. Very good shield pressure, good at poking damaged shields. If your shield is damage, Dair can and will hit you, and if you shield it all you risk getting shield broken.

It’s difficult for Yoshi to approach Bowser safely, so what better alternative is there then to bring us to them, and they have the perfect tool to do this, Eggs. The Egg Toss (ET), while not exactly a laser, gets the job done in this matchup. Because of its trajectory, Yoshi’s ability to control it, and Bowser’s gargantuan size, the move is borderline impossible to avoid, what are your options here. You could either spotdodge the move, Powershield it, neutralize (clank) it with a well timed, angled Ftilt… or Flame Breath it. As for the best option, that all depends on the distance between you and the camping dino, but you’ll find that turning to Powershield is the quickest, most reliable option. Not confident in your powershielding abilities? Well you’d better learn it now or you’re in for a world of hurt; you can spotdodge, but this is only good if there is a lot of distance between you and Yoshi, otherwise the animation will be punished by another ET or a dashgrab, and trust me you don’t want the latter coming your way.

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As you get closer to Yoshi, powershielding becomes increasingly difficult. At the farthest range, we really only have one trajectory to hit you with. The closer you get, the more variations we have, which causes changes in timing to the shield. A properly angled egg can also bounce off a powershield and explode, so if you drop the shield right after hitting the egg, you might end up getting hit. This is much more common during ECE, however. For this to happen on stage, the egg generally needs to glance the top of the shield.

Double Jump Canceled Egg Lay (DJCEL) is just one of these tactics to punish shielding, incapacitate you and setup for another move; it’s hard to react if you see this move coming but try to spotdodge it, we can’t force Yoshi back with a tilt or jab because of the Super Armor (SA) on the move, hence the DJC beforehand. Yoshi’s are smart with the way certain characters or people break out of their eggs, so try to mix-up the timing on when you’ll break out or watch to see what they do next before deciding when you want to come out. Some Yoshi’s may want to build more damage by attacking you in the egg, others may retreat and ET from afar once more, and some may even predict your break out and punish you again with an aerial reverse DJCEL, that’s not common though so it’s not something you should be too worried about.

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A generally safe follow up on a successful EL is to space an usmash so you hit with the tip of Yoshi's head during the end of it. It's a good extra damage as well as being pretty much unpunishable. ET is another option, which adds a good 5-is percent. You're also forced into the air from an EL, making it a larger threat. Also, it's HA, not SA.

They could also revert to a Pivot/dash grab depending on how close you are to them, both being very effective against Bowser. While you’re busy regaining your composure after dealing with an oncoming egg, they can follow up with a grab that more often than not catches you when you least expect it. Yes, Yoshi can air release regrab (rg) chaingrab (cg) us, to the end of the stage and then attempt to get an early gimp with a sweet spotted Fair or Dair. Try to mash buttons and get out as quick as possible or force a ground release, they need to buffer their dashgrab in order to catch us again so if we screw with the release timing they might mess up which could result in us punishing a failed dashgrab.

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Generally speaking, dash grab is very risky. A common mistake Yoshis make is seeing you shield an egg then rushing for the dash grab. While it's quick to come out, the end lag is terrible. Also, most Yoshis will slow down the munching after a certain amount of pummels so they're completely prepared for the release. While mixing up the break outs is effective,
the longer you take the more damage you'll suffer, and the more moves we refresh.

Another thing I feel I should mention here is Yoshi’s Dtilt. Watch out for it, it’ll probably catch you off-guard at least once or twice, it has range that rivals our own tilts and Yoshi is crouched to the floor when the move is in motion, which means our Ftilt will go right over his head if he is crouching. If you are in range of Yoshi and wish to Ftilt him (maybe a jab is just out of reach here) make sure you angle the tilt down, to ensure that you don’t get into this silly situation. I repeat, angle your Ftilt’s downward when trying to hit Yoshi with it.

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Dtilt is a good spacing and poking move. It's also pretty useful for mixing up out of jabs, and for hitting you off ledges. It's trajectory is pretty dangerous for Bowser's recovery, since it hits pretty much slightly below horizontally, a weak semi-spike. It makes for a relatively easy edge guard.

The ledge is another field that deserves a bit of attention as it’s pretty important for both characters in this matchup. Depending on the circumstances, getting back from the ledge can be quite difficult against Yoshi. If they decide to space ET then there’s not much we can do aside from jumping from the ledge to try and get back unscathed. There’s also the chance we could get hit by an egg, which Yoshi can follow up with a Dair in an attempt to gimp us, if you find yourself amidst a Yoshi’s Dair over the ledge try and DI up and towards the stage to get out of it, or if the Yoshi is just about to Dair or Fair you, try and Fortress as quick as possible to override it. If they try to Dtilt you to hit you off the ledge go for a getup attack (below 100% of course) or jump up from the ledge again, the move comes out quick so don’t attempt a ledge Klaw.

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Against a character as large as Bowser, you're pretty much screwed getting back from the ledge over 100%. A spaced ET will limit all options, including ledge dropping to DJ back on stage, assuming Bowser can do that. All options are pretty much covered by egg and pivot grab, so it's very difficult to return. If we Dair you offstage, you can potentially DI up and footstool us out of it, dooming us. Fair is pretty laggy and not incredibly useful in the air.

(Referring to ECE)Flame Breath also works in this situation as it breaks the eggs and may hit Yoshi on the ledge and remove his DJ for a quick gimp, but it wears down after a short time and is very slow on startup, there is also the chance that Yoshi will abuse the Super Armor on his DJ to pass right through Flame Breath and make it back safely on stage… and punish the revolting drop lag of Flame Breath; it’s unsafe unless very well spaced and not as reliable as the Ftilt so I don’t recommend it over the former.

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Flame Breath should never remove a Yoshi's DJ if they're using ECE. Yoshis use tap off, so their DJ can be saved. you can hit him out of the egg, but odds are he'll just DJ through and Nair you, land and grab you, or Bair set up.

Offstage is a pretty simple, predictable scenario. If we are returning to the stage (perhaps after falling victim to an FSmash) we try and recover from mid-high levels. Do not recover low, it is far too risky and we can easily fall prey to Yoshi’s Fair or Dair. Yoshi can Fair us at mid levels, but we have an answer to that, the Klaw. Well timed Klaw’s will eat Yoshi’s Fair for breakfast and bring us back to the stage… or cause a Bowsercide, it’s your call (most of the time anyway). If we recover high it limits Yoshi’s options, he could attempt to attack us with a Fair or Nair which we can Klaw through if done correctly, or he could attempt to go for a Uair or an ET, both of which can be easily air-dodged.

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Recovery is a big problem for Bowser, generally. Recover low and it's an easy edgehog, or Dair. We can also grab the ledge, forcing you to go for the stage. If you try to knock us off the ledge or get to close, we can drop off and Uair you to set you up for juggles. It's a good killing tactic, especially since Bowser's a fatty.

Also, if Bowser is recovering at mid height, we have a certain set up that can be used to allow for an easy edgeguard. If we jump off the ledge and throw an egg at you, you have few options. Clank it, Airdodge, or get hit. If you clank it, we can follow up with an aerial since we'll be carried out there by the ET momentum. If you airdodge, we can punish that. If you get hit, we can capitalize on the hitstun. It's essentially very easy to tack on damage once Bowser is offstage.

If you recover high, we can wait for you to fall. It's not very good for Bowser to be above Yoshi, so while you may make it to the stage, you can have trouble making it down. We can also follow you up with a super jump, similar to Klaw Hopping, only using Yoshi's massive double jump. Essentially, we can be at a DJ's height and still have a DJ left to chase you with.

If Yoshi is the one recovering the stage, we could follow him offstage for a Fair/Nair attack, but that’s relatively unsafe and can only be done if he is close enough, we suck in the air remember? But chances are Yoshi will throw an egg or two if we’re waiting by the ledge, those can be dealt with by quickly clanking or powershielding them, then it’s up to his DJ to get him back. If he goes for the ledge, obviously grab it before they do or tilt him. If he recovers high-depending on how well you know your opponent-USmash, Utilt or aerial Klaw are the best things options, or if you’re feeling brave you could try a Uair, or bait an airdodge with a full hopped Uair and hit him with Fair or another aerial if he’s close enough. Personally I prefer waiting patiently for an airdodge and either going for Utilt or a pg depending on our positions.

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Yoshi can also use a falling B-reversed egg lay to change momentum and grab you out of an attack. We can also wavebounce eggs in the air to try and mess you up, but it's not incredibly useful.

Yoshi’s KO potential, while not as impressive in comparison to other characters in similar tiers, should still be feared. Never forget that Yoshi can still gimp us offstage with his blasted forward and down aerials. His best alternative KO moves would be FSmash, USmash, Uair and the Yoshi Bomb (DownB); good Yoshi’s will land these. USmash is fairly deceptive and swings all the way around (like our Utilt) and KO’s uncharged at around 150% or so fresh on FD. FSmash is similar, but aims to KO toward the sides as opposed to upward, and can do so much earlier without DI, so make sure you aim toward the top corners of stages to survive longer. Very good Yoshi players can also space this move with their infamous character exclusive AT known as the Dragonic Reverse which I will address at a later point.
Then there’s Uair, it isn’t as powerful as our own but it is still mighty strong and can KO from the early-mid 100%'s if we’re caught pretty high in the air by it. It may be predictable and easily air dodged but god dammit don’t say I didn’t warn you if you fall victim to it and get KO’d at a stupidly low percentage. It is quick and powerful, we cannot challenge it with Dair/Nair or DownB so don’t even try it, spaced Klaw’s counter it though, but a Yoshi shouldn’t be going for it unless he in directly under us. It can also be short hopped and auto-canceled, something to note.

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Fsmash will generally be used to punish something. You may get trapped trying to get back on the stage from the ledge and airdodge into one. Usmash is generally staled since it's such a good anti air and juggling move. Uair is godlike, since we can chase you with it and edgeguard you with it. Very useful. Yoshi bomb is also very good out of jab mix ups and for punishing attempts to return from the ledge. Nair also has KO potential for edge guarding, and it's much faster than Fair, so watch out.

Next I’ll bring up Yoshi’s shield; or as me and auroreon like to call it, the cage. It cannot be shield poked and slides around a bit when hit with high knockback moves. The trade-off is that Yoshi is completely trapped; he has no options OoS except to spotdodge and cannot even jump OoS, it is a terrible curse for a character that does not deserve it and Yoshi’s won’t be shielding often like other characters. If a Yoshi is shielding then using the Klaw is a good answer as is DSmash (if you’re close enough). Because of this terrible burden good Yoshi are more inclined to spot dodge in certain situations rather than shield, learn habits, predict and punish.

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When trapped in a shield, most Yoshis will either wait for a move to spotdodge then use a quick move to get away, or shield a move and roll away. Yoshi's shield does indeed slide, and if you roll with the slide, you can get a massive boost, putting us in a much safer position. It's still a pretty bad shield, though it's not as bad as everyone thinks. I don't really ever get shield *****.

- Yoshi’s Island is Yoshi’s best stage, sloped terrain in certain places on the field and a massive tilting platform allow Yoshi to slide about the stage, bombing like a madman, and you will quickly find that it is a pain in the *** and makes things oh so much more difficult. The ratio stays the same because while Yoshi becomes harder to hit and tougher to fight, his chaingrabbing is limited here thanks to the size of the fighting platform and the slopped terrain once again. The ghost helps also, and the side of the field offstage means we can DI a Fair spike and tech the wall, allowing Bowser to survive a potential gimp. It may be impractical to some, but the option is there

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As ironic as it is, Yoshi's Island is actually not a very good Yoshi stage. Shy Guys interfere with egg camping. The platform also messes with egg toss. The slants mess up grabs, though they can be used for Yoshi Bomb slides, they're not so useful that we can just spam them over and over. Honestly, I'd say Smashville is a better stage than YI for Yoshi.

Counterpick

- Frigate Orpheon Limits Bowser’s abuse of shield-Fortress because of stage turning, as well as limiting his recovery on field 1 because the right side of the field has no ledges to grab. The stages are also small meaning there will be a lot of air time and offstage which is not something we want. Egg Lay is tougher to deal with here.

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This stage is also very good for camping. In the first transformation, we can camp the left platform which makes your approach quite linear. The dip in the second part is also a very good camp zone.

Other stages I'd possibly include are:

Castle Siege - This is one of my personal favorite CPs, one thing here is important, the walk offs. The second stage is a very large threat to Bowser, since it is very possible to walk off CG you for easy kills. You can try to stall on the platforms or banisters, but we can just egg you as you run from the threat of the walk off. Bowser doesn't really have the mobility to avoid all the eggs, so this stage is very good for tacking on damage or easy kills.

The first stage is more up close, but Yoshi can handle it with good use of Bairs, Egg Lays, and pivot grabs. We can also camp the bottom slope well, due to the arc of our projectile. The third stage is like a mini FD, that slants. Not a problem at all. The transformations can also lead to walk off CGs.

Delfino - Mainly for walk offs or wall infinite Grab releases. We can also recover from under the stage if necessary, and use the water to refresh our DJ if needed. While we can't necessarily edgeguard you as well due to the water, you also cannot get out of the water safely. Eggs hit in a way that causes you to keep landing in the water, which forces you to surface, which can be punished by another egg. Then there aren't ledges to help you get up, so you can be punished for returning as well.

Stages that work well for Bowser:

Neutral

- Battlefield . Come to this place against Yoshi, it is your best friend. This stage carries so much influence for Bowser I say it knocks the matchup ratio to 50:50, it broadens Bowser’s options while limiting Yoshi’s further. With platforms comes Bowser’s ability to abuse the Klaw much more to get around the stage, Klaw cancel through platforms and such, Flame Breath from on top of a platform, whatever you wish. The platforms limit Yoshi’s egg camping to a very respectable degree; they mess with Yoshi’s chaingrab and leave Yoshi in a sticky situation if he is standing on one with Bowser underneath. He cannot shield Uair or USmash; if he does he will be pushed off the ledge allowing a free setup for Bowser (tilt ahoy). The top platform also allows Bowser to manoeuvre a successful Klaw onto it, bringing them both much close to the upward death zone, making the Klaw a much more viable KO move here.

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Mainly wanted to note here, that while being on a platform does put us in a bad spot, it's very possible for us to simply wait for you to hit the shield, then roll with the slide. It doesn't really allow for a set up since we'll be propelled quite far away. This stage also requires a pretty different playstyle, generally a more aggressive one, involving good use of Bair and egg lay. We can camp under platforms pretty decently, however, so don't rule out camping.

Counterpick

- Brinstar has abuseable stage pieces for Bowser’s tilts and smashes. The stage terrain prevents successful chaingrabbing from Yoshi and the acid occasionally prevents spikes and gimps.

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Yoshi sux at Brinstar and it's always my ban. Not much for Yoshi to do here. The terrain completely messes with him. It'd probably be played similar to BF, except with less success. I always ban this stage. Always.

@ Bigman40.

Matchup discussions can end well if certain people would hold their cool, act civilized and if everyone took it seriously. Thankfully it doesn't look like anyone here is going to erupt

It appears i was incorrect about ground speed. Jab does come out quicker than our moves bar Fortress which it clanks with at startup (if i'm not mistaken again).

auroreon still does play but not as much evidently, he's been pretty busy with coursework, Modern Warfare 2 and Burnout Paradise lol. The majority of my experience comes from playing with him and a few other Yoshi's I've come across. I remember when we spent many days learning the DR together, and yes it was him who tech chased me across FD with the move, good times. I'll tell him the other Yoshi's miss him

@ Delta

Apologies for mistaking Super Armor for Heavy Armor. Thanks for contributing to my writeup and correcting my errors. Since you happen to know a lot about the matchup can i ask your opinion on a ratio? The more opinions the better.

I thought I crushed the discussion under my massive post for a second. And don't sweat the SA/HA thing, a lot of people do it. Common misconception. =P

Honestly, as far as ratios go, Evenish sounds the best.

55:45 Yoshi wins in general. It probably tilts towards 60:40 on our CPs, and 50:50 to 45:55 Bowser on Battlefield. 60:40 Bowser on Brinstar, which should never happen since that should be the stage ban.

Well, I'm satisfied. Now, onwards! To Jigglypuff we go!

I actually wanted to do a joint writeup with auroreon but he's really lazy nowadays and less enthusiastic about this kind of thing so i ended up doing it all myself. :/

JayDeth will probably grab your quotes and stick them on the front page since its better to have the views of at least two players maining each character as opposed to just one persons opinion.

I doubt anyone else will have any major contributions so i guess we're done here. Thanks again for taking the time to do a writeup Delta.

I didn't actually make a write up, just added some more in depth Yoshi stuff to yours, and fixed a few mistakes. No problem whatsoever.

JayDeth said:

Well, I'm satisfied. Now, onwards! To Jigglypuff we go!

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Guess i'll go tell the Jiggly's we're discussing them. I play a little bit of Jiggumz myself but not only am i not a top Jiggz I've barely done this matchup with Bowser so i won't be of much help with this one :/

Nice write up Ixis, grab release -> uair kills jiggs at around 60%

Neither character is ever used so I doubt anyone has any experience.

I think it's 60:40 Jiggz but I haven't ever played a good Bowser so I really wouldn't know.

I think this match up is very dependent on how well the Jigglypuff player is at not getting hit. It doesn't take much to kill Jigglypuff.

Maniclysane said:

Neither character is ever used so I doubt anyone has any experience.

I think it's 60:40 Jiggz but I haven't ever played a good Bowser so I really wouldn't know.

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I have alot of experience in this matchup and I think its Bowser's best matchup outside of Ganon.

6:4 Bowser ATLEAST imo.

Who do you have experience against?

Just curious.

Maniclysane said:

Who do you have experience against?

Just curious.

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Woody/Wango, whatever name hes using now, and Dapuffster, both offline.

jigglypuff is in brawl??

Phiddlesticks said:

jigglypuff is in brawl??

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lol

In all honesty, this matchup shouldn't give Bowser ANY trouble at all. Jiggs has NO good moves to KO Bowser with that aren't very predictable, and Bowser can easily take advantage of her air game. Edgeguarding isn't the BEST idea, but a Bair off the ledge isn't awful, especially with your second jump intact.

The main things I watch out for in this matchup are Dair -> Rest and Rollout. Pund proves worrysome, too. Jiggs is pretty good at racking up DMG, but her only very good KO moves are Rollout and Rest. Bair and Fair are decent as well but they don't cause big problems. Her smashes are slow (except Dsmash), but have good knockback (except Dsmash).

Problem with Jiggs... Her weight. I've KOed Jiggs at 50% with an uncharged Fsmash on Final D. He laughs at her, I'd say. Anything Jiggs can accomplish, Bowser can in 1/5 the time it takes.

So yeah, I agree with 60-40. 65-35 is pushing it, but if Jiggs doesn't start improving then it may not be too far off.

Shouldn't matter either way. I read in a Jipplypuff guide that Bowser is one character you just don't bother using rest on because the risk is too great if you fudge it.

Good jigglypuffs don't fudge rest. It's just one of those things that comes with being good at the character.

If Jigglypuffs didn't use rest because of the risk, nobody in Melee would do it against a Fox. Well in Melee they also had UTilt->Rest but there were other times they used rest as well.