A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Vex Kasrani]

I've never played a Sonic in tournament. And this was an extremely long time ago. Stop being a fool.

It's a mistake you're repeating yo.

Yes everyone makes mistakes. ESPECIALLY since virtually everyone sucks at this game.

Your MMs will prove nothing, stop being an egotistical fool.

Awesome.

Instead of betting on your own ego that it will prove anything, actually show me that you know how this game works.

I'm smarter then you in game and that's what counts. I also believe I understand a great deal about this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a mistake you're repeating yo.



Awesome.



I'm smarter then you in game and that's what counts. I also believe I understand a great deal about this game.

Again, you're just being egotistical and not backing your arguments at all. Stop letting that blind you and actually be helpful.

Tell me HOW Bowser is supposed to do any better in any of the matchups I brought up. THIS is how you will improve your boards.

You have no proof that you're smarter than me in game. A match can go many ways either due to technical failure, choking, random bull****, etc. You have also probably not seen any of my recent footage.

I will not however accept MMs as a means to prove a matchup value, whether I win or lose. It's not a valid argument at all.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Tell me HOW Bowser is supposed to do any better in any of the matchups I brought up. THIS is how you will improve your boards.

The truth is I'm fully capable of doing this, but I'm extremely lazy when it comes to this, I've only written one matchup writeup for Bowser against Olimar and its flawed. I like explaining stuff better in person tbh.

You got me there troll, but not from my lack of knowledge but from laziness lol.

Also, do you have any recent tournament results? I'd love to look at those forrealz.

 

[Cassius.]

Melee players have more tech skill than Brawl players. I'm not going to argue for or against that because I don't really care for that game anymore. But be real, we're discussing Brawl here, not Melee. There was no point in really bringing that up.

So you're preaching to the fact that Bowser loses to GW or whatever, because of some DSmash gimmick on BF (cool crawling bro, and in order for that to work, the hammer has to hit Bowser at an exact spot. How much more impractical can you get?). You're also saying Mario has a strong advantage over Bowser.

So if a Bowser were to MM you with Bowser vs your Mario/GW and you lost (hypothetically), what would your excuse be? Obviously with all this crap your saying you shouldn't have a problem losing right? Would you blame it on the fact that you're human and make errors? I'm an understanding person, and it's alright if you don't want to accept MMs, but honestly. If you're not going to defend your "reasons" for why Bowser is such a ****ty character in the actual game when you're playing against a Bowser main, what's the point of the theorycrafts then?

You say BAir, UpB OoS on reaction and fireballs, coupled with cape gimping brings the matchup for 35:65 Mario's favor. Why do you not want to prove it then? Your style isn't perfected? Big deal. No one's perfect. That excuse is such bull****. Stop being scared and play the game for what it's worth. I really think riding theorycraft all day is useless. You're going to have to rely on yourself and what you know when you play against a character. All that situational **** will only work under a certain condition, and what happens when said condition is never met?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The truth is I'm fully capable of doing this, but I'm extremely lazy when it comes to this, I've only written one matchup writeup for Bowser against Olimar and its flawed. I like explaining stuff better in person tbh.

You got me there troll, but not from my lack of knowledge but from laziness lol.

Also, do you have any recent tournament results? I'd love to look at those forrealz.

The amount of time you wasted trying to cover your *** with tournament/match results could have been spent actually showing your knowledge of the game. Seriously, you're horrible and a detriment to this discussion.

I have no good tournament results, but what good would it do if I had good tournament results? Even if my tournament results were as good as Boss's, why would that make any difference for a matchup discussion? Nobody takes Boss seriously in matchup discussions anyway.

If you want me to however prove that I'm a competent player, my most recent video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak

 

[MrEh]

I will not however accept MMs as a means to prove a matchup value, whether I win or lose. It's not a valid argument at all.

How convenient.

If you want me to however prove that I'm a competent player, my most recent video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak

You're amazing.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

The amount of time you wasted trying to cover your *** with tournament/match results could have been spent actually showing your knowledge of the game. Seriously, you're horrible and a detriment to this discussion.

Never tried covering anything lol! And thanks for the insults bro, they hurt lotz!

I have no good tournament results, but what good would it do if I had good tournament results? Even if my tournament results were as good as Boss's, why would that make any difference for a matchup discussion? Nobody takes Boss seriously in matchup discussions anyway.

I would still respect Boss's opinion over any other mario mains because he is simply the best with the character.

If you want me to however prove that I'm a competent player, my most recent video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak

Not bad, but I saw you miss with fair like a half dozen times, why so much fair? lol.

Imma go now and play Kotor2 for no reason at all, my disk is so old and scratchy that it literally lags lol!

 

[MrEh]

Kotor 2 is beast.

Granted, I liked the first one better, but I can't really complain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Melee players have more tech skill than Brawl players. I'm not going to argue for or against that because I don't really care for that game anymore. But be real, we're discussing Brawl here, not Melee. There was no point in really bringing that up.

This is entirely relevant. Most players playing this game are not representing this game as well as they should, so you cannot just say that because you beat someone a certain way that it works. You have to know the "why" behind everything.

So you're preaching to the fact that Bowser loses to GW or whatever, because of some DSmash gimmick on BF (cool crawling bro, and in order for that to work, the hammer has to hit Bowser at an exact spot. How much more impractical can you get?). You're also saying Mario has a strong advantage over Bowser.

D-tilt still walls Bowser out especially at the edge, and forces a punishable ledgeroll that can get hit by a KO move on reaction. Onstage it's still super gay for him to deal with even outside of edgeguards.

So if a Bowser were to MM you with Bowser vs your Mario/GW and you lost (hypothetically), what would your excuse be? Obviously with all this crap your saying you shouldn't have a problem losing right? Would you blame it on the fact that you're human and make errors? I'm an understanding person, and it's alright if you don't want to accept MMs, but honestly. If you're not going to defend your "reasons" for why Bowser is such a ****ty character in the actual game when you're playing against a Bowser main, what's the point of the theorycrafts then?

What if I won? It makes no ****ing difference (I have in fact won MMs for disadvantageous matchups a long time ago. So what?). A MM is a MM. Not an excuse for matchup discussion. Matchup discussion is what we aim to improve towards. STOP TRYING TO DENY THAT AND ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Kotor 2 is beast.

Granted, I liked the first one better, but I can't really complain.

I only have one problem with it, and thats the music, its so depressing :/

 

[MrEh]

I only have one problem with it, and thats the music, its so depressing :/

I wish the music was more like the original's. Then again, I wished a lot of the game was more like the original. Kotor 2 had more stuff, but it just felt like a worse game. Maybe because bioware didn't make it. lol

 

[Phiddlesticks]

D-tilt still walls Bowser out especially at the edge, and forces a punishable ledgeroll that can get hit by a KO move on reaction.

Unfortunately for Mr. Game & Watch, all of his KO moves are powershieldable on reaction.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Unfortunately for Mr. Game & Watch, all of his KO moves are powershieldable on reaction.

Most Smashes are not powershieldable on reaction due to charge release times.

The ones that are definitely PSable on reaction are like...Lucario, Ness, and Bowser's F-smash. To a lesser extent MAYBE G&W's F-smash.

 

[GreenFox]

if everybody played perfect than the game would always time out because every move would be power shielded and every grab spot dodged. This isnt even possible so as bowser lord said

get back on topic

 

[Cassius.]

The question is, what was the topic...we weren't really discussing anything short of a month ago in this thread until A2 came and said Bowser was overrated (which frankly doesn't matter since he's in D tier and no one really cares too much about characters like these at high levels of play)

 

[GreenFox]

Limit I guess your right

That being said we need another bowser board reform and find someone who takes making a matchup thread more serious

 

[Cassius.]

We do take the matchup thread seriously. . .



When people care. lol

 

[GreenFox]

Thats why they chart hasnt been updated in over 5 months?

 

[A2ZOMG]

if everybody played perfect than the game would always time out because every move would be power shielded and every grab spot dodged. This isnt even possible so as bowser lord said

get back on topic

Why are you even suggesting this? It's obvious people don't play perfectly. Everything I provided however is humanly possible to execute consistently, but I still maintain the average player does not play nearly as competently as they should, and that even pros for this game could be playing significantly more competently in various areas. What we know can be done in this game is reflected much worse for this game than others, DESPITE it being supposedly an easier game (or maybe in fact due to that due to the large appeal towards bad players)

I've always been on topic. It is you guys who have failed to properly formulate any really intelligent response to my arguments.

 

[Bowser King]

get back on topic

THIS

Guys, as much as seeing if the other persons personal abilities may relate somewhat. The personal attacks are getting annoying.

This is to discuss matchups. Discuss Bowser vs Mario. If A2ZOMG gives a situation where the Mario player is able to do all the things he says, give reasons to why bowser would be able to do better.

As much as I disagree that there is no way a mario player would be able to pull off the things he said even CLOSE to a 100% of the time. It would work a lot better if you supported with factual reasons as to what bowser can do against him. That's how its ran most of the time.

However, A2ZOMG, you have to realize that no mario player would be able to consistently do all the things you said. No mario player could consistently cape bowser to death. If you want your argument to hold any water in a real world situation, which is what matchup discussions are for, and not some robot match then you have to give some room for error. If a player was to able to consistently space and use moves all the time, you could make any close to trash (although not complete trash) character seem good. Again, that's NOT what these discussions are for.

 

[A2ZOMG]

However, A2ZOMG, you have to realize that no mario player would be able to consistently do all the things you said. No mario player could consistently cape bowser to death. If you want your argument to hold any water in a real world situation, which is what matchup discussions are for, and not some robot match then you have to give some room for error. If a player was to able to consistently space and use moves all the time, you could make any close to trash (although not complete trash) character seem good. Again, that's NOT what these discussions are for.

The only (neutral) stage where it's very iffy to Cape Bowser consistently is BF due to the platforms giving Bowser more "safe" options for landing. It is not hard to do at all on any other stage due to how bad Bowser's vertical mixup is.

All Mario has to do to control all the space at which Bowser can ideally recover is use the ledge jump to control the space for Bowser's high recovery. Low recoveries can be ledge drop Caped on reaction. The success rate for this should be much higher than 50%, and that percent gets even higher if Mario adds FLUDD and Fireball tactics to the equation. If Bowser however is deliberately recovering at extreme heights just for the mere purpose of avoiding Mario's Side-B, he's an easy target for a Smash (on FD or SV), and keep in mind that Mario's Sliding Up-smash covers half of BF and kills Bowser at like 125% or something.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

In theory, everything works the way it should. In reality, few things actually behave the way we expect them to. Have you learned nothing from past experiences?

 

[A2ZOMG]

In theory, everything works the way it should. In reality, few things actually behave the way we expect them to. Have you learned nothing from past experiences?

If you are NOT going to be helpful, then gtfo of this thread, or this board for that matter. STOP MAKING THIS BOARD LOOK BAD.

YES people make mistakes, however EVERYONE HAS ROOM TO IMPROVE. Matchup theory is what we aim to improve towards. Yes there will be dumb discrepancies because PEOPLE SUCK AT THIS GAME.

Seriously, are you going to deny Ganondorf is the worst character in the game? If we went strictly by reality, he actually has some random good tournament results (see Koskinator placing 2nd in a tournament with Ganon). This does not change the fact that Ganon is bottom tier garbage who is not competitively viable or able to win against any respectably good character.

Good theory does become reality when people practice enough.

 

[Cassius.]

Wait, so now you're a valid contributor to the Bowser boards?






lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm doing a lot more for this board at this moment than any of you guys. I'm actually contributing information. You guys are trying to cover your ***es with ****ty logic and egotism and are destroying this thread by yourselves.

Step it up. Or shut the **** up. I will not tolerate ignorance. If you guys call yourselves Bowser mains and REALLY think you know more about the character than I do, PROVE IT DAMMIT.

That's probably too much to ask of you anyway, but the least you guys can do is stop being blatantly idiotic.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

I loled
It's simple. Any character can win provided the player outplays and outthinks his opponent and or is super lucky. Bowzer has a few broken moves, range, power, and ko-deterring weight. What's not to like?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Do you mind not swearing, A2ZOMG? It's very offensive and, to be honest, completely uncalled for.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I loled
It's simple. Any character can win provided the player outplays and outthinks his opponent and or is super lucky. Bowzer has a few broken moves, range, power, and ko-deterring weight. What's not to like?

This is completely off topic but whatever.

Good players do not get outplayed or outthinked to the point where garbage characters are able to win against legitimately good characters. There are very very few good players, and even many of those players still have a lot to improve in. In high level play with both players playing correctly, characters like Bowser and Ganon have several matchups that they cannot win.

Firstoff Bowser doesn't have any moves that are broken. That's just plain overstating his advantages. Snake is a character with "a few broken moves". Bowser is not.

Jab is probably the closest thing he has to fitting the description of broken, and even that move isn't hugely amazing. It's a good poke that can combo into stuff, but he really doesn't kill you with it, and it still doesn't protect his ridiculously huge frame solidly.

The other OK moves he has are like...F-air, Klaw, Up-B, and F-tilt, none of which are safe or reliable against someone who knows the matchup. His GR stuff is alright but only does so much, compounded by the problem of even getting a grab safely in the first place since Bowser's grabs suck.

Almost everyone has moves with range and power, but most characters have moves that can fit that requirement more safely than what Bowser can do. Bowser also gets comboed a lot, and his bottom tier recovery also limits his survivability to the point where it worsens his matchups by 10 points.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

In high level play with both players playing correctly

Expand on this, please.

Bowzer's grabs are pretty mediocre at best but if u combine his grab releases with a little wit then the opponent can be in for some serious damage.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Wow. Someones really burnt the pie and ***** the grape now.

I came to the Bowser boards early in the morning here in London to see where the Pokemon Trainer discussion had gone since i last checked a while ago. What do i find when i arrive? The last eight or so pages filled with unavailing discussions and an argument that appears trapped in a vortex of ricocheting opinions, pigheaded statements, ignoble posts and naked lies. This has gone on long enough.

A2ZOMG, I'll get straight to the point. What are you trying to gain out of dragging on this brew that has long since produced an indigestible broth? You're obviously an intelligent person, and from sitting here for the past hour or so reading this embarrassing discussion i have gauged that you're clearly dissatisfied with the way these boards progress, as you've said numerous times before. I found myself agreeing with a lot of what you said, and i recognize that we need to step our game up. Perhaps it's time i actually did my duty as a Bowser main and actually start contributing all i know to these boards and work to keep us on track rather than the odd few videos every couple of months. But pulling the one man army card and taking on everyone at once isn't the way to go about getting your point across-however frustrating it may be to argue-and singling out and insulting other members wont in any way burnish your point, instead it will only aid to blight it.

Why don't we end this whirlpool of bitterness here and leave the Bowser vs Mario discussion for a time that is appropriate for us all to discuss it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Expand on this, please.

Players with good reaction time who know all the options for zoning, defending, initiating or avoiding traps and make very few or no serious technical errors in a match. That is the type of level of play that matchup discussion aims to explain about. The only real mistakes that should actually occur in this level of play should result from coming out of the wrong end of a guessing game trap and very small spacing discrepancies between viable spacing/poke options.

Ganon is an obvious example of being a completely unviable character, since he has no move that beats shieldcamping or spotdodge on reaction, and he's an easily comboed and gimped character. Everyone should agree to this, since that is how his tools actually work. How does he pull off random wins in tournament/friendlies/MMs? Lots of people suck. That's all there is to that really.

Bowser fails less than Ganon since he can pseudo-reliably make someone think twice about shielding or spotdodging, and has something that resembles a decent poke, but his ways to work around conservative play (and projectile camping) are extremely limited, telegraphed, and ultimately quite punishable, and he suffers those weaknesses to combos and gimps and traps in general.

Bowzer's grabs are pretty mediocre at best but if u combine his grab releases with a little wit then the opponent can be in for some serious damage.

Tell me who can't do some serious damage from a grab with a little wit? Seriously.

The GR chaingrab by itself does very little damage if you don't grab someone with your back facing the edge, and even if you do, you're looking at like...20% from pummels for all that trouble...which is decent damage I guess...except how is that even going to happen? Now say you're not really GR CGing so much. Tilts manage to break past 10 damage, so GR -> D-tilt might net you about 20ish%, which is comparable to a standard throw -> followup if usually slightly weaker. Klaw does a little less than 20%. Jab does 5% so Jab Klaw I guess can do about 23%, add maybe two pummels that manages to get to 28% or so, which is probably about the same damage you'll do if you can mindgame in GR -> F-smash. If you are a little ballzy, you might be able to break 30% with enough regrabs/pummels into that stuff I mentioned, which I guess is respectable.

I guess it's alright, but really...is that what you call serious damage for all that trouble?

@Ixis, I'll be pleased to further discuss the Mario matchup some other time.

Like many other players who enjoy this game, I'm here to further the knowledge available for this game and advance the metagame and help improve other players. This is why I enjoy matchup discussion.

 

[B!squick]

YOU are the one trolling this thread since you are contributing nothing helpful and only starting hostile arguments.

sig'd

I'm actually contributing information.

I can reliably (74.47% of the time) beat G&W with my eyes closed. See? I can contribute information, too.


Wait! Stop! Stop. My bad. I'm only contributing to this circle of endless ********. I'm sorry.

Okay, since I have LONG long long forgotten A2ZOMG's original post that started all of this, why don't you restate your trash argument so that we may show you it's flaws and isolate what was useful. As opposed to... well, everything else you've done.

@whoever complained about the chart: Make an updated one then, smarty pants. If I knew the whereabouts of one I would have posted it by now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, since I have LONG long long forgotten A2ZOMG's original post that started all of this, why don't you restate your trash argument so that we may show you it's flaws and isolate what was useful. As opposed to... well, everything else you've done.

Do your best. I expect no less from the mains of a character board.

G&W beats Bowser on all stages, and most importantly hard counters Bowser on his best stage, BF. While G&W already has a superior zoning and punish game and wrecks Bowser's predictable recovery, G&W is able to make himself even more impenetrable through the use of vertical spacing, which in the case of Battlefield is D-tilt and D-smash used from above platforms, which do hit low enough to hit Bowser from above. For your information, D-tilt hits slightly lower than D-smash, so is a bit more reliable.

On top of that being pretty gay for Bowser to approach past conventionally, D-tilt from platform is an unbeatable edgeguard against Bowser. Bowser has only two options to work past this. He has to either recovery OBSCENELY high, which G&W can use as an opportunity to U-air juggle into almost whatever he wants, or he has to ledgeroll past it, which especially at higher percents, will get punished by one of G&W's massively powerful KO moves, perhaps D-smash which can in fact hit Bowser from above the platform anyway, although platform drop is just fast enough to get other stuff on reaction, especially since Bowser really can't be doing anything else.

 

[fromundaman]

The title intrigued me, so I read the last 2 posts. I just want to say that 20% (give or take) is NOT comparable to a standard throw. The strongest throw in the game does 16%...

Also, GR>jab>something else is effective on Bowser's part, especially against someone like Ganon, who has no fast options.

That's probably been said already though.

 

[B!squick]

Do your best. I expect no less from the mains of a character board.

G&W beats Bowser on all stages, and most importantly hard counters Bowser on his best stage, BF.

Okay. Why?

While G&W already has a superior zoning and punish game and wrecks Bowser's predictable recovery,

Explain please. My fighting blind can be called "elaborate, unbeatable mind games."

G&W is able to make himself even more impenetrable through the use of vertical spacing, which in the case of Battlefield is D-tilt and D-smash used from above platforms, which do hit low enough to hit Bowser from above. For your information, D-tilt hits slightly lower than D-smash, so is a bit more reliable.

First off, I highly doubt G&W is just going to stand on a platform above Bowser, nor do a I believe that Bowser will just twiddle his thumbs and let him jump up there. But I'll humor you.

The Bowser player is distracted by something unrelated to the game and the G&W manages to get on a platform directly above Bowser. Perhaps someone or something freezes time and arranges the situation you stated. Hell, there's an act of god, whatever.

What are Bowser's option's here?

... Well, shield obviously. Crouching could get Bowser low enough to avoid this. UTilt or even USmash would beat DSmash (I can tell just by looking at the frame data), not sure about DTilt though. Then there's SH UpB which would beat DSmash as well, but again, not sure about DTilt.

Though, this is of course assuming G&W uses his as of yet undiscovered teleportation tech right after his also yet to be discovered freeze tech.

On top of that being pretty gay for Bowser to approach past conventionally,

Because of...?

D-tilt from platform is an unbeatable edgeguard against Bowser.

.... I really don't see what's unbeatable about it. At all.

Bowser has only two options to work past this. He has to either recovery OBSCENELY high, which G&W can use as an opportunity to U-air juggle into almost whatever he wants, or he has to ledgeroll past it, which especially at higher percents, will get punished by one of G&W's massively powerful KO moves, perhaps D-smash which can in fact hit Bowser from above the platform anyway, although platform drop is just fast enough to get other stuff on reaction, especially since Bowser really can't be doing anything else.

Or I can just Klaw him on the way down. >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

@fromundaman: Not just an individual throw. I mean doing a throw and doing a followup. It usually does similar damage if not more than what Bowser can do.

Explain please. My fighting blind can be called "elaborate, unbeatable mind games."

G&W's approaches are infinitely safer and do more damage, and Bowser can do little to challenge the combination of G&W's high mobility and super safe disjoints.

First off, I highly doubt G&W is just going to stand on a platform above Bowser, nor do a I believe that Bowser will just twiddle his thumbs and let him jump up there. But I'll humor you.

Why is Bowser approaching? Bowser can't safely or reliably approach in any feasible way, so G&W has stage control advantage in almost every situation.

The Bowser player is distracted by something unrelated to the game and the G&W manages to get on a platform directly above Bowser. Perhaps someone or something freezes time and arranges the situation you stated. Hell, there's an act of god, whatever.

OR bowser gets hit because he can do very little about G&W's zoning.

... Well, shield obviously. Crouching could get Bowser low enough to avoid this. UTilt or even USmash would beat DSmash (I can tell just by looking at the frame data), not sure about DTilt though. Then there's SH UpB which would beat DSmash as well, but again, not sure about DTilt.

All of these are telegraphed and involve Bowser limiting his own options, which G&W can feasibly punish due to his superior spacial control. Do not assume a good player merely spams the same move multiple times. A good player uses multiple moves and tactics to wall, and Bowser can do nothing safely, reliably, or easily to get past G&W's walling/zoning options. Furthermore it isn't very wise for Bowser to be below G&W under a platform. D-air as I recall is safe on block against Bowser from above platform.

Though, this is of course assuming G&W uses his as of yet undiscovered teleportation tech right after his also yet to be discovered freeze tech.

This tech is owning the crap out of Bowser because his zoning and safety options are horrible.

Because of...?

You cannot walk into this, and you cannot jump into this. if G&W sees an approach, the situation is highly in his favor due to his infinitely safer zoning and pressure tools.

.... I really don't see what's unbeatable about it. At all.

Tell me how a character who has next to no safe or reliable options and gets killed reliably through **** traps and setups actually stands a chance.

Or I can just Klaw him on the way down. >.>

Again you are making faulty assumptions about players who do not know what they are doing. Klaw is too slow to anti-edgeguard anyone who knows what they're doing.

 

[B!squick]

I was assuming Bowser and G&W were reacting at the same time during your completely unrealistic hypothetical situation.

Also, what is it about G&W's zoning that Bowser can't do anything about? You're doing a terrible job explaining yourself. Assume I know nothing about G&W.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W's disjoints have a lot of range, he has a lot of mobility, and he does a lot of shield damage and many of his attacks also have respectable shield pushback. Bowser really can't feasibly punish G&W when G&W is pressuring him.

Don't say Up-B out of shield. That is not viable if G&W knows good spacing. G&W can blatantly fullhop -> anything on Bowser with impunity, and stands a very good chance at finding a shield poke opportunity due to Bowser's inability to punish reliably.

Assuming people react at the same time only happens in Jab wars really. It's very unsafe and difficult for that matter for Bowser to feasibly punish G&W's platform based vertical spacing on reaction due to G&W having extremely low lag on most of his moves and good hitbox duration, and he can do nothing to G&W that isn't avoidable/punishable on reaction.

 

[JOE!]

whatabout Fire when GW tries an aerial?

those hitboxes only last so long, and if you hold the fire just enough, it will prevent GW from hitting you, and do damage before the bucket can come out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Firebreath is not a viable move in high level play and will be SDI punished.