Lucario Moveset Discussion:

Well Forcepalm is risky and its sometimes good for grabbing behind you. It also sets up for stringing combo's with it which is the cool part. like for me Force palm to Fair to Nair works for me a lot of times. So its a good and bad, thats what I think of it.

Should we resume dsmash? Or do something else?
Also, if we are doing dsmash, I think ksizl has stuff to say about that move, but idk for sure.

phi1ny3 said:

Should we resume dsmash? Or do something else?
Also, if we are doing dsmash, I think ksizl has stuff to say about that move, but idk for sure.

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I personally like Dsmash, it's a fast move compared to Luc's other smashes and it can swat opponents away.
^.^

I am VERY sorry for the long wait.

Issues such as the power going out + Loss of internet when it returned held me back.

<- wasted time ;_;
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GO

Dsmash, Fastest smash, least laggy, short range, sweetspot on the very tip. Personally, I like this as roll punisher, or a GTF away from me move.

Personal opinion on Dsmash:

Its his best smash attack, hands down.
The hit box is a bit higher then people give it credit for, and also it makes an amazing punishing move. Its less start up time makes it better to use in some cases over Fsmash because its less likely to block. Really its just a great move to punish people after baiting them.

really there isn't much for me to say on Dsmash so all I have to say is what Aurasmash said. lol

I typically only use d-smash on accident, but usually its so unexpected it either hits, or I end up not getting punished. Occasionally I use it intentionally, with typically decent results, but very rarely. I suppose the only good attributes it really has are its knockback which is excellent by Lucario standards, and its relative speed to our other smashes.

This CANNOT be all you guys have.

BUMP!

Dsmash? I've been trying to work Dsmash into my game lately. Yes, it has poor range compared to fsmash, bad cooldown lag, kills later than even a non-sweet fsmash, few lingering frames, and is very punishable on block, it's noticeably faster, kills at similar percents, lacks a sweetspot to my knowledge (which means consistent knockback and damage throughout the attack), does not force a step forwards (which could be good or bad), has a hitbox on Lucario himself, and will almost always be fresh.

Honestly, I think dsmash is a bit underrated simply for the fact that it will always be fresh when you need it, and it's noticeably faster than fsmash. Often, Fsmash will be stale, and in some cases, Aura Sphere will be as well, and you probably won't be able to land a uair for awhile. Pulling out a dsmash to punish at this time rather than a fsmash or ftilt may land you a much easier kill than if you were to stick with your usual punishers and keep on racking damage. Maybe you could use it out of a jab mixup.

iRJi said:

Personal opinion on Dsmash:

Its his best smash attack, hands down.
The hit box is a bit higher then people give it credit for, and also it makes an amazing punishing move. Its less start up time makes it better to use in some cases over Fsmash because its less likely to block. Really its just a great move to punish people after baiting them.

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holy ****




I was just calling you a scrub out of lulz, but I had no idea I was right. Dsmash is only good at punishing if your opponent has a fetish for rolling towards you or spot dodging a ******** amount. And less start up time compared to Fsmash = better KO? LOL wow. I'm honestly sorry, but holy crap that gave me a good miggle. Dsmash is so horribly punishable because of its after lag makes it delicious to people like DDD, Marth, MK, etc. because their quick OOS options can KO/rack damage like crazy. The funniest part of your post is that Dsmash doesn't KO half as efficiently as Fsmash does (not even counting a tipped Fsmash!). You're doing Fsmash wrong in all the wrong ways if you think it's inferior to Dsmash. Fsmash is the best KO move Lucario has because of how safe it is. The only punish for a shield Fsmash I can think of atm. is a Snake Ftilt when it's perfect shielded (probably more but I don't feel like looking for any). I mean, how do you get so wrong as to think that Fsmash < Dsmash? It's insane. If you even knew the numbers on afterlag, KO power, or even just punishability, I think you'd realize how wrong that statement is.

I just can't fathom how you can main Lucario, be busy working on punishes with Lucario, and not see this! Are you blind? I ask this sincerely; do you play smash impaired? That's the only frame of mind that could conceive that Dsmash would be, not only better than Fsmash, but be his best smash in general. Dsmash, is just a weak attack that is easy to shield when your opponent isn't a ten year old (besides Mojoe I guess). Your opponent doesn't have to have amazing reaction time to still be able to shield it then punish OOS. Plus, it may be the quickest smash, but god is it weak. I've never KO'd with it unless my opponent was in the 150s ish. At least with Fsmash, it's strong yet there's less worry about that because of it's somewhat safe range. You can still punish Fsmash, but there's not as much of a chance of it happening if you know how to space your Fsmash. Fsmash just has so many uses too, how could you not know this? Walling, KO'ing, clanking, and even punishing your opponent when he's getting up from the stage too slowly (the ledge recovery). Lastly, hitboxes. You just can't compare them. Fsmash is undeniably better, and you're a moron if you even try to say otherwise. This is given, I'd be beating the already rotting corpse that is this metaphorical horse if I went any further on it.




I almost feel bad for you now. It's like I'm making fun of that kid who wants to be an Olympic Runner but has cancer. I half didn't want to post this, if only because I'll probably regret it on my death bed or something.




no but seriously, I lol'd. I'm not saying you can't use Dsmash efficiently or that it's a horrible move you shouldn't even attempt, but just the "best smash" part made me failgasm. As far as I'm concerned, Dsmash is only useful against opponents who will get punished for doing the same thing multiple times.... multiple times. Lol, best smash, lol..... Oh, and seven nickels says you probably won't read this, so I'll say something right now like "I want to have sex with you desperately you make me hard at night" to actually see if you read this assault on your credibility as a mainer. God I love flaming you.

The_Bear735 said:

The only punish for a shield Fsmash I can think of atm. is a Snake Ftilt when it's perfect shielded (probably more but I don't feel like looking for any).

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this comment is very silly

i tl;dr'd your post when you repeatedly make incorrect statements so often, I lost count after the first paragraph.

...
<.<;
Somewhere in the world, I hear lucario's metagame dying a horrible, gruesome, and un-awesome death. Facts need to be straight.

Dsmash isn't where it's at.
Fsmash, while lovable, isn't what it's cracked out to be (especially hearing from other characters raving about it). Can be punishable with more than what has been mentioned.

*Decides to come less and practice more*.

djbrowny said:

this comment is very silly

i tl;dr'd your post when you repeatedly make incorrect statements so often, I lost count after the first paragraph.

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the funny part about not saying things is that you aren't saying them, but you're still saying them. I don't really buy into apathy and infallibility coincide with each other, so do tell what you think is wrong.

The_Bear735 said:

but I had no idea I was right. Dsmash is only good at punishing if your opponent has a fetish for rolling towards you or spot dodging a ******** amount.

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Dsmash is quite useful at punishing the landing lag of characters who have limited options when recovering over a ledge or normal landing lag.

The_Bear735 said:

And less start up time compared to Fsmash = better KO? LOL wow. I'm honestly sorry, but holy crap that gave me a good miggle. Dsmash is so horribly punishable because of its after lag makes it delicious to people like DDD, Marth, MK, etc. because their quick OOS options can KO/rack damage like crazy.

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Its not THAT much more punishable than many KO moves. not everyone in the game has incredibly long ranged punishers like those characters, and they will punish the vast majority of KO moves the same. horribly punishable by Lucarios standards is still reasonably safe for a KO move, considering the shield knockback from the move will protect you from many KO attacks.

The_Bear735 said:

The funniest part of your post is that Dsmash doesn't KO half as efficiently as Fsmash does (not even counting a tipped Fsmash!).

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Debatable. Dsmash sends at a lower angle meaning DI is less effective against it, and Dsmash should always be completely fresh if used for a KO as oppose to fsmash. I would not expect in normal gameplay, a non-tipper fsmash to KO earlier than a dsmash for those reasons. tipper fsmash is still ridiculously powerful

The_Bear735 said:

Fsmash is the best KO move Lucario has because of how safe it is. The only punish for a shield Fsmash I can think of atm. is a Snake Ftilt when it's perfect shielded (probably more but I don't feel like looking for any).

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Again, debatable. I think Aura sphere challenges fsmash in terms of safety and it packs comparable power. Also many attacks can punish shielded fsmash, but people are generally unable to drop shield the very instant the hitbox dissapears so they hold shield for the duration of the attack. even with perfect shield drop however it remains punishable by a few characters dashgrabs and ftilts.

The_Bear735 said:

Lastly, hitboxes. You just can't compare them. Fsmash is undeniably better, and you're a moron if you even try to say otherwise.

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When did he say this?

The_Bear735 said:

I almost feel bad for you now. It's like I'm making fun of that kid who wants to be an Olympic Runner but has cancer. I half didn't want to post this, if only because I'll probably regret it on my death bed or something.

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You're not funny

phi1ny3 said:

...
<.<;
Somewhere in the world, I hear lucario's metagame dying a horrible, gruesome, and un-awesome death. Facts need to be straight.

Dsmash isn't where it's at.
Fsmash, while lovable, isn't what it's cracked out to be (especially hearing from other characters raving about it). Can be punishable with more than what has been mentioned.

*Decides to come less and practice more*.

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Rofl, if lucario's metagame dies it should go out 100x the hiroshima blast. (sorry if you are offended)

seriously, why even bother arguing so much at which is the better smash attack. there 2 different attacks with their own properties. Hell, why even bother to fight so much over the internet when its so useless
-> _ <- Honestly, If you really look at how most kills are done its with D-air and AS. Now can we get back to discussion and discuss Dsmash, its potential uses, its stats, AND its rating and please stop Ranting about how Fsmash is better and vice versa.

EDIT- i remember watching that vid about a year ago Rofl IGN went epic fail when they tried to show off lucario.

If Lucario's metagame dies, it'll become a tumbleweed and just roll everywhere...


....Just like Lucario.

To Bear: Oh you =3

Anyway, I'll give Dsmash about a 6.5. It is overshadowed by Fsmash in terms of both range AND power, but beats it out in speed. (IMO, Range>Speed in most cases.) Dsmash is usually fresh due to lack of use, so it's useful as a surprise attack that might kill. I use the attack more than others aparently, and it's a decent move overall.

djbrowny said:

Dsmash is quite useful at punishing the landing lag of characters who have limited options when recovering over a ledge or normal landing lag.
fair enough


Its not THAT much more punishable than many KO moves. not everyone in the game has incredibly long ranged punishers like those characters, and they will punish the vast majority of KO moves the same. horribly punishable by Lucarios standards is still reasonably safe for a KO move, considering the shield knockback from the move will protect you from many KO attacks.
In my experience, anytime an opponent shields my Dsmash, I'll get punished for it. Unless you're working off of the very edge of the hitbox, your opponent will have a somewhat decent window to punish. It's not a grand exaggeration to say that a good majority of the characters in mid to top tier will have some way of getting damage in as a punish. Shield knockback can prevent punishes, but this is only if you are majorly playing up the hitbox at the very edge.



Debatable. Dsmash sends at a lower angle meaning DI is less effective against it, and Dsmash should always be completely fresh if used for a KO as oppose to fsmash. I would not expect in normal gameplay, a non-tipper fsmash to KO earlier than a dsmash for those reasons. tipper fsmash is still ridiculously powerful
I see your point, but the trajectory on Dsmash isn't angled drastically, only slightly. It won't make a terrible difference from the middle of FD until around 100%+ (rough estimation, I'm probably wrong about it). Non tipper'd Fsmash will KO maybe a tad earlier than Dsmash, if only because Fsmash (without being decayed of course) will still have a good amount of knockback, even when the opponent's at low percents. I'm not going to get into Brawl and check percents on how early both KO, but I'm willing to say that Fsmash would KO somewhat earlier. But, if you're generally saying that Fsmash and Dsmash have similar KO potential, I'd have to disagree with that.


Again, debatable. I think Aura sphere challenges fsmash in terms of safety and it packs comparable power. Also many attacks can punish shielded fsmash, but people are generally unable to drop shield the very instant the hitbox dissapears so they hold shield for the duration of the attack. even with perfect shield drop however it remains punishable by a few characters dashgrabs and ftilts.
I'm not sure who you're playing, but I have been punished for a Fsmash against good players. Granted, they've been some of the better punishers in the game (Marth, Snake, MK, etc.), so you might have some leverage there. It's all dependent on how well your opponent can punish in terms of reaction time, because it is possible to PS then OOS punish. This seems like a somewhat mute point to debate, so w/e. This is just based off of the experience I've had, so I could just be talking out of my *** (like I have multiple times before).


When did he say this?
He didn't, but I was bringing it up as a point of support. I figured it was worth bringing up if we were going to get into a Fsmash vs. Dsmash debate.


You're not funny
I've never claimed to be but ty anyway

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asdffdsaas

Phew, I thought that I'd get Bear's famous wall of pain text.
*waits in horror*

Dsmash is pretty much over, let's move on if not to only get these two to stop butting heads.

k



I nominate Usmash because no one is cool Phil enough to discuss FPG. Maybe Uthrow as well, but I don't feel like searching to see if either have been discussed.

The_Bear735 said:

k



I nominate Usmash because no one is cool Phil enough to discuss FPG. Maybe Uthrow as well, but I don't feel like searching to see if either have been discussed.

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FP has been talked about IIRC
Usmash sounds good, it could use some discusion.

Holy ****!

Bear made two posts that didn't involve insulting another player!?
I'm scared.


Anyways I will switch to U-smash. Anyone that has anything else to say better say it NOW.

It's meh, I'd give dsmash a 6.
Usmash if you've seen me go on about it before I used to say it was garbage, only really mindgamey, considering most other punishers are more safe without having to commit (uair or utilt).
Recently however, I've found usmash to have it's usefulness, apart from punishing very committed attacks (like the occasional bowser downB or some dairs). There's a frame trap you can exploit when they are hanging on the edge trying to get back onstage. If you time your hyphen usmash well, unless they roll, they will nearly everytime get nailed, especially though if they try to ledgejump or do the getup/attack option. Makes for nice KO's/AS charge time.
Other than that, I can't say I still like this smash much, I actually prefer dsmash more, they can be argued as the opposite sides of the coin, one has speed but almost no aura residue, and is more horizontal, whereas the other has probably the longest living lingering hitbox in the game (besides multihit attacks of course).

I prefer Usmash for heavies and for people like Snake who can tend to be ******** when it comes to landing. There's not much else use for it though. I wish we could pull a Lucas with it on the edge, but w/e. It's still great to get when you predict a SH. <3



but I ****ing hate doing it instead of Utilt

twoskilld4u said:

Holy ****!

Bear made two posts that didn't involve insulting another player!?
I'm scared.

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I care?

The_Bear735 said:

I care?

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Well...you replied to it...

I guess so?

Anyways

Here you go guys...

GO

Hmm ill give Dsmash a 6.5 its pretty meh compared to what Fsmash can do.

Upsmash... lol its probably one of the weirdest smash in history. Its priority can sometimes block swords, It has a lingering hitbox like Fsmash. (its actually a fsmash shot upwards) Better for Antiair rather than real combat, and Utilt is much better imo. Its also the least likely to kill amongst the killing options of Luca, and I only really find a use for it as a sort of trap for annoying puffs and other aerial nuisances. I would give it a score of 5-6 if only because of the lingering (and traveling) hitbox.

on another topic, lets discuss Fsmash after this.

usmash has occasionally nice pseudo-frame traps because of the lingering hitbox, although I feel that if the opponent is trying to get up from the ledge, fsmash is overall safer and more effective. I'll only usually use it against a character who's getup attack range is huge (like DK's).
I actually recommend learning the timing, it'll shut down A LOT of your opponent's ledge options.

I use this move more than I should. I tend to use it when characters are coming up from the ledge. I consider this move a surprise move. It has decent KO power as well when Lucario's damage is up.

Its ko power isnt really anything special compared to his other killing moves. Although i must admit, i never thought of using it against an opponent on the ledge. I just Dair them most of the time.

I love u-smash on the edge, depending on the character you are fighting it can be very effective. I actually tend to make good use of it in a lot of matchups by abusing the length that it lasts. Its good for catching a phantasm, you are somewhat protected from behind. The only thing I dont like is the end lag, but I find it pretty useful against characters with poor horizontal air speed.

Typically when I play against other people, they dont expect u-smash to last as long as it does leading to a lot more hits than it really should get.

U-smash really only has length and the amount of time going for it, besides strength+ aura that is, its a slow and kinda laggy move

Upsmash has it's beautiful aspects to it. I personally love this move, but only in certain matchups.

Any, and I mean -any- character that has a bad blind spot underneath them (Marth, ROB, Yoshi, Dedede recovering, etc...) should get hit by this move more than once a match. If not more than once, at least once to get killed.

I rate Upsmash 7.5/10, because of its usefulness where it's handy. Where it's not handy, however, it is severely lacking.

If I recall correctly, Upsmash either beats G&W's dair or it clanks with it.

Upsmash is THE most reliable move at knocking Falco/Fox out of their phantasm. It also hits Fox out of his upB if they're using that.

Amazing airdodge punisher. It's almost as effective as chasing the opponent and fair'ing, them dodging, and eating a dair because of it.

If I can think of more random stuff about Upsmash (I really like this move, but I know how to use it), I'll post them.

It beats out the key Rayku. Personally, id rather bair to catch an airdodge, but you do have a point on certain parts.

I get a surprising amount of KOs with this vs. aerially challenged people like DDD, Snake, and even ROB. Hell, I can even get a Marth to SH into it once in a red moon. It's really underrated in terms of punishing, and while it can be depressingly laggy, it's still a good move. Plus, the afterlag on the hitbox has definitely hit some of my opponents off guard, especially because it will still hit even though you can't see it. I don't recommend using this with the idea that it's incredibly reliable for KOs, though. It's a smash you have to lure your opponent into with either mind games or trickery.

All in all, I'd say it's a useful surprise move and can KO somewhat early when you have enough aura boost or if the opponent is high %s enough.

It's fun to fully charge an up smash next to someone and have them get hit by the lingering hitbox when they go for a grab.

It's a decent surprise kill move, and if mastered (timing and spacing), it can prove to be a worthwhile move for mostly anti air. Maybe a good mindgame on the ground, too. /shrug

I love the lingering hitbox, it's so dumb[good], most non-lucario players forget the stupid hitbox on it and will probably get hit by the awkward range of it, or the other hitbox on it. I usually use it for a mixup when no one expects it. Also pretty **** amazing if your opponent trips on a platform right above you, free usmash.

lol I thought you were phil for a second.




anyway I forgot to mention how amazing Usmash is on BF. You can use it from under the opponent. They either have the choice of A) getting hit by it (the lol option, if you will), or B) shielding it and risking falling off of the side of a platform and either getting tech punished or just Ftilt'd. B) doesn't work all the time, but if it doesn't work, it's near impossible to punish anyway.

The_Bear735 said:

anyway I forgot to mention how amazing Usmash is on BF. You can use it from under the opponent. They either have the choice of A) getting hit by it (the lol option, if you will), or B) shielding it and risking falling off of the side of a platform and either getting tech punished or just Ftilt'd. B) doesn't work all the time, but if it doesn't work, it's near impossible to punish anyway.

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Thats really character dependent, Im not sure who can punish you for doing that, but I know Metaknight is among them, and likely any other relatively quick character. Its fine to do it from time to time, but if they notice what you are doing there are certainly characters that will punish you for it.