Lucario Moveset Discussion:

[ckm]

Force palm is pretty good, its just risky. TBH, its not the slow startup that makes me hesitate to use this move, its the REDICULOUSLY laggy flame that makes it dangerous to overuse. And yeah SOMETIMES you will hit with the flame and it will protect you, but don't bank on it.

I like it when landing behind a shielding opponent. If timed correctly you can buffer it to complete on landing and it comes out pretty fast. It actually feels kinda like an arial grab (bowser/wario) kinda thing when I do it. This is one of my favorite ways to punish people that stay in their shield too much (which is a lot of people when they play against an aggressive lucario =p)

Players that don't know the lucario matchup will still get caught in jab> fp tricks, and will often get caught in the CG too. I consider it worth trying at least once on new opponents, and if it works I keep using it.

I also like to use it to punish laggier moves or mistakes... if you know you have the time for the startup, its pretty darn good.

Also, its very important to note that FP is actually our best killing throw when at high aura... it beats the hell out of forward throw, and that may or may not be common knowledge.


Question: Does a turnaround FP take longer than a regular FP? It seems just as fast to me. My reason for asking is this:

If turnaround FP takes 9 frames to grab just like the regular FP, then it could actually be a faster option than turnaround regular grab when landing behind someone in their shield (since the turnaround/standing pivot takes time to perform, in addition to the time of the grab).

I have talked with phil about this, but I don't think hes had a chance to check the frame data on it yet. Anyone know?

 

[ckm]

How do you break out of force palm I never really understood that.

im pretty sure its the same as a regular grab escape.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Wait FP can pivot? O,O uh oh..

 

[ckm]

Wait FP can pivot? O,O uh oh..

Not pivot as in a running turnaround. But you can obviously use it on an opponent standing behind you.

 

[ckm]

why is it that any time i ask a question, the thread commits harakiri?

bump.

 

[D. Disciple]

Force palm doesn't have the same mechanics as a grab. Since you stop moving when you use Force Palm altogether except in the air. So to answer your question, no.

Also be patient lol, cause it happens to me sometimes whenever I make a post in a thread.

A few punishing tactics that I like to do and discussed with RJ on aim. Is if your opponent is on the edge and they try to use their fast get up attack (>100%) I like to shield or PS it then force palm them. If they don't catch on at later percents and they are over 100% and do their slow get up attack that's the perfect time for a force palm, imo it's better than using your grab at that time. Higher knockback and more chance of killing them.

Also I like to catch people out of their rolls too if you can't catch them with jab-jab-fp.

Tech chasing is still hard for me to use force palm with, but we have better moves for that.

 

[phi1ny3]

In the loose context of the word, FP pivots.
But by stricter means, it doesn't really get that "pivot slide" most people talk about, or a differing animation.

 

[ckm]

Force palm doesn't have the same mechanics as a grab. Since you stop moving when you use Force Palm altogether except in the air. So to answer your question, no.

Also be patient lol, cause it happens to me sometimes whenever I make a post in a thread.

that didn't answer my question at all. did you even read my post?

here, I'll explain it again:

If I perform a FP in the direction OPPOSITE to the direction I am facing, does it take longer than performing the FP in the SAME direction I am facing?

I am curious because if it does NOT, then it may be faster than (or comparably as fast as) performing a standing pivot/turnaround and THEN performing a standard grab.


Here's an example in case it still isnt clear what I'm asking:

I am about to land behind someone. When I land, we will be facing in opposite directions (back to back).

I want to either:

A) 1. Perform a STANDING PIVOT / TURNAROUND* (this could be buffered out of an airdodge), then 2. Perform a standard grab

OR

B) Buffer a forcepalm towards my opponent (it would be a "reverse" FP, since I am facing away from the opponent)

And that is correct phil, I am not talking about a running/sliding pivot.



*AKA: switching the direction I am facing without lateral movement; AKA: 180 degree turn; AKA: i hope you get the point

 

[iRJi]

that didn't answer my question at all. did you even read my post?

here, I'll explain it again:

If I perform a FP in the direction OPPOSITE to the direction I am facing, does it take longer than performing the FP in the SAME direction I am facing?

I am curious because if it does NOT, then it may be faster than (or comparably as fast as) performing a standing pivot/turnaround and THEN performing a standard grab.


Here's an example in case it still isnt clear what I'm asking:

I am about to land behind someone. When I land, we will be facing in opposite directions (back to back).

I want to either:

A) 1. Perform a STANDING PIVOT / TURNAROUND* (this could be buffered out of an airdodge), then 2. Perform a standard grab

OR

B) Buffer a forcepalm towards my opponent (it would be a "reverse" FP, since I am facing away from the opponent)

And that is correct phil, I am not talking about a running/sliding pivot.



*AKA: switching the direction I am facing without lateral movement; AKA: 180 degree turn; AKA: i hope you get the point

To answer this fast and easy, it does not increase frame time on the FP. FP frame data remains the same meaning, the grab on FP will still come out on frame 10 when you preform it.

 

[manhunter098]

How many frames does it take a character to turn around then?

 

[ckm]

How many frames does it take a character to turn around then?

im tempted to say 6 frames but I could easily be wrong on that.

Any frame wizards want to jump in this discussion (im looking at you phil)?

Also, and this is a bit off topic from my first question:

I'd like to test the data on a landing force palm... it seems (although again, I could be wrong) that it will activate slightly sooner/faster than it should...

Maybe there is a "window" where you can be a teensy bit still in the air and still get the grab rather than the flame.

OR

Maybe it activates immediately upon landing, thereby canceling the (iirc) usual 4 frames of landing lag?

OR

Maybe I'm completely wrong on those 2 possibilites XD.

 

[ckm]

To answer this fast and easy, it does not increase frame time on the FP. FP frame data remains the same meaning, the grab on FP will still come out on frame 10 when you preform it.

thank you, sir!

 

[phi1ny3]

I've found a potentially very delicious thing to do with lucario's FP, and if it does work out, I'm gonna almost literally drag Kevin to my house to record. If it pulls off, it might have the same gravity the old FPCG did when people didn't know about it's "flaws". I'm gonna be a little tight-lipped for it, but it might be good, it might not.
Also, French Defense is amazing for those who don't know a clue on how to fight a really walled off black defense in Chess. I've been going on King's Indian for a long time, and now I found something that suited me more for a response to 1.E4 (Chess people should know what I'm talking about, although most will say French is very boring to fight against) XD

Edit: @ ckm RJ is right, things like DB and other things have no penalty for turnaround, there are almost essentially 3 categories of movement:

1. There's definitely telltale turnaround animation unique to the move (pivot grab is a good example, as is possibly reverse AS).
2. There isn't a unique "pivot" animation, but will suffer a slight frame penalty from the default "turnaround" animation.
3. There's no penalty, essentially the same back as it is forward (like I said, DB is a good example).

 

[D. Disciple]

that didn't answer my question at all. did you even read my post?

here, I'll explain it again:

If I perform a FP in the direction OPPOSITE to the direction I am facing, does it take longer than performing the FP in the SAME direction I am facing?

I am curious because if it does NOT, then it may be faster than (or comparably as fast as) performing a standing pivot/turnaround and THEN performing a standard grab.


Here's an example in case it still isnt clear what I'm asking:

I am about to land behind someone. When I land, we will be facing in opposite directions (back to back).

I want to either:

A) 1. Perform a STANDING PIVOT / TURNAROUND* (this could be buffered out of an airdodge), then 2. Perform a standard grab

OR

B) Buffer a forcepalm towards my opponent (it would be a "reverse" FP, since I am facing away from the opponent)

And that is correct phil, I am not talking about a running/sliding pivot.



*AKA: switching the direction I am facing without lateral movement; AKA: 180 degree turn; AKA: i hope you get the point

I said No. Sorry I was posting that while I was at work on my phone. But I clearly said No at the end of my weird sentence and yes I did read your question.

 

[ckm]

I said No. Sorry I was posting that while I was at work on my phone. But I clearly said No at the end of my weird sentence and yes I did read your question.

well im sorry if I was wrong, but you said no because he doesnt move on the ground while turning... which has nothing to do with the question that i asked... so i think it was fair to assume you misunderstood.

 

[ckm]

I've found a potentially very delicious thing to do with lucario's FP, and if it does work out, I'm gonna almost literally drag Kevin to my house to record. If it pulls off, it might have the same gravity the old FPCG did when people didn't know about it's "flaws". I'm gonna be a little tight-lipped for it, but it might be good, it might not.
Also, French Defense is amazing for those who don't know a clue on how to fight a really walled off black defense in Chess. I've been going on King's Indian for a long time, and now I found something that suited me more for a response to 1.E4 (Chess people should know what I'm talking about, although most will say French is very boring to fight against) XD

Edit: @ ckm RJ is right, things like DB and other things have no penalty for turnaround, there are almost essentially 3 categories of movement:

1. There's definitely telltale turnaround animation unique to the move (pivot grab is a good example, as is possibly reverse AS).
2. There isn't a unique "pivot" animation, but will suffer a slight frame penalty from the default "turnaround" animation.
3. There's no penalty, essentially the same back as it is forward (like I said, DB is a good example).

phil, you'd better give me credit if all my FP questions helped discover whatever this thing is... or i will kill myself and haunt you forever.

Also: how many frames for a standing turnaround + grab?

 

[hichez50]

someone said on Aib lucario boards said that FP to dash attack is a true combo.

 

[The_Bear735]

someone said on Aib lucario boards said that FP to dash attack is a true combo.

AIB Lucario boards have MTI and Rockettrainer though, so they are automatically better. Both Lucario forums are scrubby and nubby, so we might as well just compare the few good people that are regulars.

Spoiler

but this forum has worse scrubs

And it's already been said by Phil in the most concise way possible, but FP grab does pivot in the sense that you can turnaround punish with it, but it won't be 1.5 times as fast, which is the standard for a pivot grab. However, turnaround FPG is so sexy for punishing people. I love doing it, even though using FPG in general is risky as **** unless you're vs. Snake.

 

[phi1ny3]

phil, you'd better give me credit if all my FP questions helped discover whatever this thing is... or i will kill myself and haunt you forever.

Also: how many frames for a standing turnaround + grab?

Eh, kind of. It certainly got me asking about a "set of moves" and their potential.
Oh, and it isn't FP -> Dash attack. If this goes well, we could have a really, really unfair tech chase (like even easier than snake or something). If not, it is at least a fun way to develop lucario's ground game (oops, hint).
If you aren't talking about the pivot/dash turnaround little animation, and just the standing turnaround grab, I'd say it is around 7-8 frames. Oh yeah, just a little fun-fact, technically, all the numbers on the frame data are wrong in a way, because it takes only in-game frame data. In reality, the time it takes for the console to take input from the controller (wired, of course) is 1 frame, so in reality, things are just a wee bit slower when you actually input down + A for dair, which comes at about 5 frames (also not counting laggy plasma screen shenanigans and whatnot). This applies to every character.

 

[The_Bear735]

Good **** Phil. Lucario possibly getting a tech chase is the best thing ever, even if it is escapable.

 

[ckm]

If you aren't talking about the pivot/dash turnaround little animation, and just the standing turnaround grab, I'd say it is around 7-8 frames.

How much of that is the turnaround, and how much for the grab? Sorry, I should know the data on the grab but I'm less educated on frame data as I should be...

Plus, since it is 2 seperate inputs (as you said, two inputs is slower than one by at least 1 frame), would that mean that we are actually performing it in 8-9 frames? Forgive me if I misunderstood.

Also, even if the standing turnaround takes 7-8 frames to activate, then a 9 frame turnaround FP (that gets buffered, no less!) is really a pretty decent alternative, particularly since it is easier (IMO) to perform--just takes a lil timing.

 

[PrinceAlus]

While this **** about Force Palm is interesting. I feel that I should speed things up a bit, Which unfortunately interferes with this conversation.

**** needs to get done.

Ill pick back up on Force Palm later. Maybe tomorrow.
______________________________________

GO

 

[The_Bear735]

Alus, uh wtf. Who needs Dsmash info when we could potentially figure out a way to make FPG better?

 

[phi1ny3]

Dsmash is interesting, a lot of people don't like it, but where usmash has got a huge lingering hitbox, dsmash is our fastest smash on startup.
I don't use it as often as I used to, but sometimes I'll punish rolls, and often if I know fsmash isn't going to kill in a situation where I can use either smash, I usually use dsmash instead to keep fsmash fresh and it sends them on a more horizontal trajectory, which lends itself to a better possibility of attempting a gimp afterwards.
A pretty meh smash, but it lends it's use at times.

 

[HyperEnergy]

I still find it useful in close combat situations where you and your opponent keep doing spot dodges, as it punishes spot dodges.

 

[Alus]

Alus, uh wtf. Who needs Dsmash info when we could potentially figure out a way to make FPG better?

1. This thread is designed to look into all moves more, not just FP .

2."potentially" Is the key word in your sentence.

3.I was suggested to kick the **** out of the way.

4. I want to kick this out the way EXACTLY because I thought that "no one needed D-smash info"

5. I want to be done with this entire moveset before school starts >_>

 

[phi1ny3]

I like to use it when I'm tempted to use fsmash to catch an AD'ing opponent in his landing frames but I'm not sure if it'll hit. The one useful thing about it really is that it's usually so fresh (as in Febreeze fresh), and while it is overshadowed by his other moves which are more suited to his actual metagame design (range and such), dsmash when looked at is actually not that bad when you look at other character's dsmashes (with some obvious exceptions). Also gives a smidgeon of push on shield, so it certainly is still pretty punishable on block, but not so much as other dsmashes.

 

[The_Bear735]

1. This thread is designed to look into all moves more, not just FP .

2."potentially" Is the key word in your sentence.

3.I was suggested to kick the **** out of the way.

4. I want to kick this out the way EXACTLY because I thought that "no one needed D-smash info"

5. I want to be done with this entire moveset before school starts >_>

1. I know. I'm not "special". FPG is more important than Dsmash, imo. The most I could see us coming up with for DSmash is possibly learning how to dash pivot fake out use it, but that's pretty situational, and DSmash is outclassed by Fsmash unless you are punishing a roll/dodge behind you or going straight out of your opponent SDI'ing the first hit of Dair.

2. God that is so ironic and stupid. DSmash doesn't even appear to have half as much potential as FPG, and we'd be stupid to ignore the possibility of finding a more efficient FPG method. We can get to DSmash eventually, and I think our time is better spent on FPG.

3. By Alus, who is one of the largest nubs in the IRC.

4. It's not that "no one needs DSmash info", it's just that there's not much left to find. I only use it as a surprise move when my opponent techs towards me or does something that they think is unpunishable. That's about it. I'm not saying that there isn't any info left in DSmash, and by all means I don't mean to imply that I know all the info about DSmash. I'm just saying, most of us know what Dsmash does and how it's not quite that viable compared to Lucario's other options. I probably won't stop you from going with DSmash (and probably wasting your time), but w/e.

5. k? g4u?

 

[Alus]

If D-smash doesn't have that much info I think that we will go through quickly huh?



Ok fine, I'm wasting time, I'll switch back now.

 

[PrinceAlus]

Alright back to this!

GO!

 

[hichez50]

If D-smash doesn't have that much info I think that we will go through quickly huh?



Ok fine, I'm wasting time, I'll switch back now.

A couple months ago I asked if D-smash has a spot where its most effective. But it reminds me of a bair where it dosen't matter where you go.

 

[phi1ny3]

Alus, uh wtf. Who needs Dsmash info when we could potentially figure out a way to make FPG better?

Are you trying to make me spill out stuff before I've tested?

 

[Timbers]

forcepalm suuuuucks diiiiiiiick

 

[Fizzle]

forcepalm suuuuucks diiiiiiiick

^^^ This.

Spoiler

10fpblowjobs

 

[The_Bear735]

forcepalm suuuuucks diiiiiiiick

exactly why we're trying to fix it and make it useful

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

is there really much depth to force palm? it can grab, it can be a tripping projectile which sucks balls :| and thats really it

 

[manhunter098]

Well it might be made more useful if we understand how well it compares to a regular turnaround grab. Its still a risky move though.

 

[Alus]

So, almost 18 hours and we have gone nowhere?

mmk.

;_;

 

[phi1ny3]

I'll give you a clue,
buffering before suffering lol.
That is all.

I'm going to post the thing on the Brainstorm thread. I think we should move on, tbh.

 

[Alus]

You decide what goes on next...
I'm worrying about controlling the thread now.