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Lucario Moveset Discussion:

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
Yeah I have to go with Phil and the others, planking isn't that bad with Lucario. I do it often when my opponent and I are at high percent, falling back and doing uairs if they get to close works a lot surprisingly and can often kill them. If a MK drops down on you, and you expect a dair coming, you can hit him with an uair from the flames and return back to the edge, and how Fizz did his nair, was very wise. Since the T.Link was charging a smash attack, he knocked him away with nair which gave him a lot of time to get back onto edge, even though he SD'd his 2nd stock but that's okay. Don't knock on something without going to well in thought about it guys, can it be punished? Of course, but not everyone is a genius at the game and will fall for these kind of things. Try some new strats before knocking it off as a bad thing.

Doing it on Delfino is also fun, cause you hit from the middle of the stage then ES to the other edge, or stall out a bit and land on the stage or something.
uhhhhh....planking with Lucario? seriously? seriously?

It would be smarter and less dangerous to just land it on the stage rather than fall back down... the worst case scenario would be getting grabbed rather than getting gimped. Both are pretty poor options unless you are punishing something laggy or their shield is guaranteed to get poked or something.

The bit about delfino sounds plausible, but please don't tell people to plank with lucario, it won't work.

Lucario's best ledge options are ledgejump Dair, ledgehopped upair, ledgehopped AS, and walljumped bair or walljumped b-reversal AS... I can't think of too many other good offensive options. Honestly, I think its alot safer to NOT try to attack them off the ledge and just get back on the stage at any cost. Its not worth it most of the time because a good player will punish you and your return is too ****ty to play off the stage games.
 

F1ZZ

Smash Lord
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Who thought that Nair would bring up planking? lol

I still think that it would benefit our game to plank sometimes just to mix up our game to not be as predictable. Sometimes we have to take risks to get rewarded. :)

Imagine if ES actually delt damage?
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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Jan 31, 2009
Messages
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If ES could do damage, they probably would take away the flexibility or the wallcling factor.
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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for once, I agree with bear. I highly dont agree with planking. maybe once in a blue moon like DT but definitely not as often as "sometimes"
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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uhhhhh....planking with Lucario? seriously? seriously?

It would be smarter and less dangerous to just land it on the stage rather than fall back down... the worst case scenario would be getting grabbed rather than getting gimped. Both are pretty poor options unless you are punishing something laggy or their shield is guaranteed to get poked or something.

The bit about delfino sounds plausible, but please don't tell people to plank with lucario, it won't work.

Lucario's best ledge options are ledgejump Dair, ledgehopped upair, ledgehopped AS, and walljumped bair or walljumped b-reversal AS... I can't think of too many other good offensive options. Honestly, I think its alot safer to NOT try to attack them off the ledge and just get back on the stage at any cost. Its not worth it most of the time because a good player will punish you and your return is too ****ty to play off the stage games.
You do bring up a point. Risk>reward, although I do like some of the highlights of it. *sigh* the shortcomings of lucario (although I think the whole ledgehop uair underneath the stage to hit above you is decent, but walljump stuff can be pretty risky tho).
 

D. Disciple

Smash Master
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uhhhhh....planking with Lucario? seriously? seriously?

It would be smarter and less dangerous to just land it on the stage rather than fall back down... the worst case scenario would be getting grabbed rather than getting gimped. Both are pretty poor options unless you are punishing something laggy or their shield is guaranteed to get poked or something.

The bit about delfino sounds plausible, but please don't tell people to plank with lucario, it won't work.

Lucario's best ledge options are ledgejump Dair, ledgehopped upair, ledgehopped AS, and walljumped bair or walljumped b-reversal AS... I can't think of too many other good offensive options. Honestly, I think its alot safer to NOT try to attack them off the ledge and just get back on the stage at any cost. Its not worth it most of the time because a good player will punish you and your return is too ****ty to play off the stage games.
I'm not totally encouraging the planking idea, I just mean to pull it off once a bit. If they catch your rhythm of recovering back to the stage. Also it really wouldn't hurt much in a double situation, waiting for your teammate to come back. Yes, the other options listed above are your best ones to do, but a bit versatility in your game wouldn't hurt that much.

Also wall jump to b-reversal AS is really fun to do.
 

F1ZZ

Smash Lord
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I have offically switched to Bear's side. While I was playing last night I was hugged while doing my Nair tactic and it resulted in me losing the match. For sure not one of my best moments.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
i really like to use this arial to space myself after fair. make the opponent guess where I will land. Often people will try to shield grab you after you use it, but if you DI back you can punish with Fsmash or AS.

nair actually has purty good knockback at high aura, it will kill sometimes.

sometimes i like using it without a preceding fair to be less predictable.

It lands with no lag (only 4 frames of landing lag), so you can often pull off combos out of it, but its punishable on shield, so dont use it against someone's shield if youre landing in front of them.

it can work OoS too against taller characters, making it a decent punish for poor spacing against certain ppl.

IIRC, It has a slightly larger hitbox in the rear.

Its good for hitting people on platforms, and it shieldpokes well.

thats all I cant think of at the moment, we should move on cuz i don't think anyone has anything too good to share.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Like I said, I agree with ckm. SH fair -> ff retreating nair is cool.
Don't forget if you try for using it oos to punish, it'll work pretty well against light characters that are more prone to jumping, and can kill if you keep it fresh vs. light chars.
Also, as long as you are pretty decently close to the ground (like at least SH distance) or are sure your opponent will be unable to chase you/catch your fall, this can sometimes even work as a respacing tool if you retreat it, regardless of whether fair is being used prior to it. I'd use it only sometimes, but it's still an idea to consider.
Can we do another move plz? Maybe fair?
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
I would rather do dair or throws... maybe dthrow? I find myself using uthrow alot more and would like to see what other people have to say about dthrow vs uthrow
 

PrinceAlus

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I am going with Dtilt because i wanted to get that awhile back...After this Dthrow.

ok?
----------------------------------------------------

Proceed...
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
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Dtilt, Definitely not the fastest tilt, or the strongest when sweetspotted, but I really love this move. It has good range for a Dtilt, its knockback is different than others it pops them up for another attack. Its a viable addition to the fair FF nair string, and It has killing power. (weak and likely not to be used for killing but still, Its knockback is large for whats supposed to be a trip attack.) The Dtilt's bad parts however, 1. no trip. 2. a bit slow. 3. does not shieldpoke properly. Ill give this move a 7.5 or 8/10
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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It has deceptive vertical range, srsly. I can hit airborne people who try to spotdodge into the ground and such. It's like a little above his head when crouching, which is nice for a sweeping tilt, sometimes allows itself to be stringed out of jabs. Honestly, I'm gonna quote from my "You can't handle the Truth!" thread, which I think I need to change the title, lol.
7. Dtilt
Dtilt is a very mixed tool that has different uses that neither excels compared to other char's dtilts nor sags (except in tripping T.T). It's decently fast, has plently of range, and a pseudo-benefit from it is that even if the move gets occasionally input by accident from other moves (like ff nair or jab cancel), IT WORKS ANYWAYS (most of the time anyways :p). It will always do some decent damage even at low percent, and serves as a make-shift "poke" tool that can be used for zoning. What sets it apart is that the pop-up is very ideal at low percents, and combine that it has some relatively low cool-down time it can string into other options. All in all, I think that dtilt is underused because people look at it in a "keyhole" concept, complaining about it's meh quality that most dtilts are designed for, but forget that as a whole its mixed qualities actually tend to suit lucario's damage-racking game anyways.

* It's a decent string ender/starter. Gotta love a tilt that's quick enough to work out of nair's autocancel, has good range, and is almost too easy to use. Also gotta love that slight push it gives and what you can do out of it. I've seen dtilt give many lucarios that extra edge he needs to maintain momentum and pressure without fearing too much.
* It's a trap! This is not a typical "frame trap" move like ftilt, but let me explain. let's say the opponent is in his shield while you are right there pressuring him (preferably waiting), and let's say he wants to spotdodge, upB oos, or retaliate with a jab. This is a 9 frame move, if he does upB oos, that's about 4 frames to drop, 5 frames for the hitbox to come out. While this is somewhat situational, this has helped me several times against my friend's bowser, since it clanks with it, allowing me to readjust myself in a somewhat advantageous position, instead of flying up in the air, worrying about some risky traps. This slight delay in the hitbox also lends itself for a weak landing trap for opponents, often more safer though. It's very challenging and tricky at times, but it certainly does help to have a tilt like this that's almost an inbetween for jab/utilt speed and ftilt/fsmash speed, and it will throw off opponents when demonstrated correctly. I'd almost consider this a "mindgame trap", considering it isn't as advantageous in raw frame data as it is in player behavior and typical tactics.
* It's a crude poking device. It has meh shield pressure, but great range and good speed, and being able to crawl can help you respace this move. If used in conjunction with ftilt and grab, your opponent will have to deal with all sorts of complications in his punish game, and dtilt will help with it's low cooldown and awkward start time that will get opponents caught off guard.
* It's kind of on the safe side. This move really has it covered in a beautiful speed-to-range ratio. It's almost short of jab or utilt in speed, but with the slight stun properties of the aura it often doesn't matter, and can fit itself into several roles in your playing, especially a must-have in the low percent damage racking game. It's range and cooldown (it's has some IASA, iirc) both go well together in being both a defensive pseudo-zoning tool and a string "sting" attack (meaning it give opponent's limited options like a pseudo-tech chase scenario). This can even be useful in provoking a response when an opponent is trying to get off the ledge and can attack them with moderate safety, due again to its low commitment in frames.



I’m going to add to this later, and this by all means is not intended to replace the guides. This is merely for those who are transitioning, and have either forgotten what Milln said in the Inner Fire videos, or forget to apply it or see beyond the basics of lucario.
I'd give it a 7.5/10, possibly an 8, this is definitely an underused move.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
i personally have found very few uses for dtilt... ftilt and utilt have both found their ways into my game a bit (I need to use ftilt more), but dtilt just doesn't do much for me. The lack of good shield pushback, combined with its mediocre speed and distance/range/coverage as well as it's lack of a good lingering hitbox makes me much more inclined to use a different tilt or a jab in pretty much any situation.

I'm not saying this is fact, just what I've found from my experience. I'd like to incorporate it more... phil, I will do some testing with the trajectory of its knockback--that is a factor I had not previously considered much.

Oh, I use it sometimes as an edgegarding tool, and SOMETIMES to cover me after a fsmash.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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popup is good, it helps provoke a response when edgeguarding, and now that I've seen it, it's good for resetting falco's phantasm and at high percents putting him back on recovering.
I think though that ftilt is better, but it is an underlooked move imo.
Let's do something else.
 

D. Disciple

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Indeed it does, I've been finding myself using it a lot more. So I don't really spam out my fsmash when I don't need to. I'm just saying in certain situations I would use so and so tilt, over the other tilts. Like when someone attacks me, I use utilt OoS, or to clash with other people's attack.

Ftilt for shield pressuring, spacing yourself and nice little damage rack up for people trying to jump at you, when aura starts to kick in.

Dtilt, for pop ups, somewhat edgeguarding (ftilt might be better cause I think it goes under the edge.) and stopping Falco's phantasm, when they do the aerial one just slightly off the ground.
 

Rayku

Smash Lord
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I am slowly finding that Ftilt is a really good move for hitting people as they attempt to recover off the ledge. Faster startup time than Fsmash means you can react quicker.

Fair takes care of ledge jumps. If you're up in the air, Dair does that well too.
Fsmash takes care of ledgehops, except for Marth (who can counter). In this case, just charge it
Dsmash can take care of roll off the edge very effectively.
Shieldgrab (duh) blocks getup attacks
Ftilt is used for those who just stand up on the ledge. The alternative is obviously Fsmash, but it's what They expect.
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
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Fitl is one of lucario's most underused moves lol. we should wait until 2skilled comes back.
 

Alus

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Ill move to Ftilt...people were talking about it more than Dtilt lol...
 

PrinceAlus

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Oh shi... I completely forgot about this thread last night right after I said I would change it....Boy am I responsible!:laugh:
---------------------------------------------------


Hurry now!
 

F1ZZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
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Toronto, Canada
Well Ftilt is amazing for racking up damage when your opponent starts a stock. I will talk about Ftilt later but at the moment I have to leave my house.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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in my SCIENCE! lab
imo better than dtilt in terms of qualities.
shreds ADing to bits, as well as spot dodging.
But then again, imo all of lucarios tilts are pretty decent.
 

Aurasmash14

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Ftilt, one of the most underused moves lol. Good speed and range, hits twice to nail people who let down their shield too early. can be aimed. stays out longer than most Ftilts. 8/10 imo.


I will edit the post later.
 

mountain_tiger

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Personally, I think that FTilt is a really good move. It does a lot of damage when both hits connect, and has decent range and knockback. It's kinds like a quicker but less powerful version of FSmash. I like to use it for close-range spacing, as a GTFO move and for racking up damage at low percents.
 
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