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Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

Veril

Veril

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Scufo said:
Is anyone else still encountering any "Ness is overpowered" sentiment?
Click to expand...
Nope.

CountKaiser said:
Along with this new topic, apparently Ness's jab combo doesn't combo from the second hit to the third hit.
Click to expand...
Without SDI and with all hits connecting: What % and characters? Check Luigi, Snake, Jiggs, and Fox. Those are good indicators of a combos effectiveness across the cast. It'll be useful information, but ultimately not something that's going to change.


In fact, there is only 1 new Ness change happening: removal of the DJC float glitch. Hey, I haven't heard enough about the zapjump. If I didn't prefer the blond one already...
 
Kink-Link5

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Alphatron said:
When people universally learn how to DI, you'll be forced to read more sage. Right now, it seems like everything is set in stone because most people either don't DI or just sit there and take it. Yesterday, I spiked my friend and he SDI'd into the ledge and teched it. As Princess Peach.

Without any DI, I will admit that most combos seem as if they occur automatically. But I'm not complaining about Peach dash attack comboing into itself because I suck at DI. In the time that brawl+ has been out, I find it weird to hear people say that there is no need to read DI like in melee. But nobody has bothered to play brawl+ yet and the level that they do in melee. How many people even know that moonwalking exist in brawl+(granted it isn't done the same way it is in melee).
Click to expand...
I've been seriously trying to figure out how to moonwalk for the last 6 hours.
 
CountKaiser

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Veril said:
Nope.



Without SDI and with all hits connecting: What % and characters? Check Luigi, Snake, Jiggs, and Fox. Those are good indicators of a combos effectiveness across the cast. It'll be useful information, but ultimately not something that's going to change.


In fact, there is only 1 new Ness change happening: removal of the DJC float glitch. Hey, I haven't heard enough about the zapjump. If I didn't prefer the blond one already...
Click to expand...
Okay, up until these percents on these characters, the 3 jab combo doesn't combo from second to third hit.

Luigi: 29%

Snake: 32%

Fox: 26%

Jiggs: 23%

Bowser: 31%

Lucario: 29%

The last two I did at my own discretion.

Now why, might I ask, will this not facilitate a change? Just curious, is all.

EDIT: btw, now my friend is whining about nair, since it apparently eats everything, lol.
 
[TSON]

[TSON]

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nair has always been a godsent move. if you want to complain about anything, complain about the new 'defensive' pk failire. :p
 
RPGsFTW

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^CountKaiser

I think that everyone's jab combo should be a full combo, unless jab canceled, then it's avoidable. Good idea? No, Great idea!
 
Veril

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Many characters jab "combos" aren't true combos until low-mid%. This isn't really surprising to me. If Ness's jab couldn't combo at all, like Sonic's, that would be worth changing. That is not the case. The sole legitimate issue is the ability to buffer a powershield, which IS something that is being looked into and will be fixed.

The last time I'm going to say this... 6.0 Ness will effectively be unchanged, the only thing I intend to do is ensure his DJC float glitch (aka DJC-hover) is removed, as it allows for an infinite stall. Any new posts requesting buffs will be infracted as spam. Please have a meaningful discussion.
 
Alphatron

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Ness' intro animation should be buffed. I mean, he's crashing into the stage after teleporting. I demand he take some residual damage from it, like when Diddy Kong hits a wall with his Up B.

*infracted*

To be honest, I don't find it to be that big of a deal because Ness' jab isn't even that good. It doesn't cover behind him. The jab cancel options usually aren't worth it (up smash, dtilt), meh.
 
PKNintendo

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Yup. But alas I would like to have everyone's honest opinion.

How high has Ness risen iyo?
I believe he's high tier. At the very LOWEST mid tier. Ness is just to fun/awesome now.
Good job guys, Ness couldn't have made it this far without everyones effort.
 
Veril

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Like Yoshi and Bowser, this is Ness's most powerful iteration in a smash game (not counting 5.0... shudder). He's pretty f***ing good in my opinion, you just can't win with 4 moves like in 5.0... "looks at Cape"
 
PKNintendo

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That's good to here. After Melee, vBrawl AND smash 64 (Apparantly Ness moved from top tier to mid tier)
I was going crazy.

Things are looking up.
 
CountKaiser

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I honestly could not say how high up ness is, considering that everyone feels great now.

So instead of tier list placement, how about matchup discussion?

Who should we start with?
 
~tgm_Zeej

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Well, who does everyone know?

The characters I know best are Wolf and Ganon, but I've got a bit of experience with most of the cast.
 
Scufo

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I have the most trouble against MK. That should be a given, though.

Anyone who excels at gimping is trouble for Ness.
 
CountKaiser

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Yeah, gimpers have no problem killing Ness.

But it should be kept in mind that Ness can kill rather easily, since he has great kill setups, and that his ease of killing is magnified by the weight of some gimpers, such as MK, Jiggs, and G&W.

DJC and FF fairs into grabs are pretty nice, and can lead to some good stuff. djc fair -> bthrow is legit, and can kill jiggs at 100%. Zapjump fairs are nice for comboing too, and can even lead into a dair depending on DI.

Don't underestimate nair, as it can eat a lot of stuff due to how quick it is. Don't overestimate it either, though. While it is fast, it isn't disjointed, and can't go up against something such as G&W's bair.

As for matchups, I've been playing a burgeoning jiggs, and oddly enough I am finding it rather even. She kills Ness about as easily as Ness kills her, and spacing with fair can help to deal with Jiggs superior mobility. Also, running in with a quick nair to catch jiggs off guard I've found to work sometimes, but not to be something to rely on. Keep in mind, though, that while the jiggs I go up against has used her before, he's doesn't play at a high level, more like mid level or so. So take this for what you will.

MK, on the other hand, I assume would give Ness trouble. MK can easily keep Ness out, can combo him, and can gimp him. While Ness can do the same to MK, he has trouble getting in in order to do the damage in the first place.

However, I firmly believe that Ness' worst matchup would still be G&W. Bucket, bair, and fair really ruin Ness' day. G&W can space ness very well, and can get a full bucket from Ness trying to recover if they can predict the recovery.

Out of curiosity, how would Ness do against Lucas?

Also, alphatron, how do you moonwalk in brawl+?
 
~tgm_Zeej

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I would think that a campy Ness would have the advantage on Jiggles thanks to the massive brick wall that is retreating fair. That's pretty much theory smash though.

MK though, he's a bit of a problem. Spacing is the name of the game, and since the only aerial you have that beats any of his in terms of priority is retreating fair, you can quickly be backed into a corner if you aren't playing smart.

DJC'd bairs and dairs help. Their sourspots have pretty decent range, but a good MK shouldn't have too much trouble getting through them if you abuse them for too long.
 
Veril

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PKNintendo said:
That's good to here. After Melee, vBrawl AND smash 64 (Apparantly Ness moved from top tier to mid tier)
I was going crazy.

Things are looking up.
Click to expand...
Ness wasn't in top or even high tier in any of the non-hacked smash games. He is 4th lowest in ssb, 6th lowest in melee and 7th lowest in vBrawl.

Ness+ is the most viable he's ever been.
 
CountKaiser

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Question on recovering.

Suppose after a zapjump fair, Ness gets knocked away again, and he now needs to use PKT2. Would it be better to recover from above the ledge or below the ledge? If you do recovery from above, should Ness aim for the sweetspot or go for the stage?

Normally, I PKT2 from below and sweetspot the edge.

Also, just how useful is PSI magnet for recovery? I hear it's very useful, but I can't find a good time to use it instead of a zapjump.
 
Alphatron

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PSI magnet isn't necessarily good for recovery in the sense that you want to make it back to the stage. It's good for defense when you want your opponent to get away from you. It's like Olimar DownB...only the SA is much harder to time, its application requires prediction, and your opponent can't do anything to Ness afterwards or even bother following up, thanks to the wind.

As for PKT2, I always recover low. I don't like getting left open...but I've noticed that it gets absorbed a lot.
 
D

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I am posting from the future. I am here to say that Ness in Project Melee is really good.
 
RPGsFTW

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PKNintendo, Ness WAS high/top tier in 64 back on the older tier list. It went something like: Pikachu, Kirby, Ness, etc. Now, however, Ness is 9th of 12. He took a heavy hit. His approaches aren't good, I guess they say. Only thing good about him is his combos.

I still play him in 64 though. =D
 
Zwarm

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Legit how? I main Ness in 64 too, and I never got why he dropped so much. I think he's as good as the high tiers minus the whole Saffron City thing.
 
Veril

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Get back on topic plz. Enough discussion of Ness's low tier placement in every non-hacked Smash game.

DeLoRtEd1, you should make a thread for P:M Ness.
 
CountKaiser

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Yeah, except no one would be able to talk about P:M ness. T_T

Anyway, On topic. The zapjump. Has anyone been using this for combos and such?

Speaking of fair, I know FF fair leads to a grab. Any other grab setups?
 
D

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I dunno, i'm just doing normal ness+ **** but with wavedashing to help with spacing and what not. god, **** b+ lol
 
Alphatron

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Depending on my opponent's DI, zap jump can still lead into dair of FF fair. There was one case in which my opponent ended up behind me and I baired him but I'm pretty sure that was just a huge mistake on his part.

As for FF fair/DJCFF fair...I always grab on impulse. You could try nair but it isn't guarenteed. I personally don't use it for anything other shield pressure. I envy Peach's nair...
 
~tgm_Zeej

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DJC uair can net a grab at low percentages. Though if you hit with a DJC uair at low percentages, It's probably a better idea to just follow up with more DJC uairs.

My grab setup is usually Fair, tech chase or a pivot PK Fire (lol).

Speaking of PK Fire, anyone found a reliable use for it? Actually hitting someone with it only to have them eat 8% and SDI out is painful. xP
 
CountKaiser

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PK Fire?

It's useful on only fatties and FFers now. Floaty characters seem to be able to jump out before you can follow up with aerials.

PK fire -> grab is a distant memory now, and the only thing that works now is an aerial, though this does allow for PK fire -> dair, which is nice.

Overall, PK fire can't be spammed, and for a good portion of the cast it's easily escapable. If you are fighting a fatty or a FFer, go ahead and use it. If not, just use PKT. Does the same amount of damage and is much more maneuverable.
 
Alphatron

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I still find PK Fire useful for PK Jumping spammers (sometimes I accidentally zap jump PK Fire and nothing happens). Firebound is still useful for mindgames even though its hard as hell to do on a wiichuck.

PK Thunder is somewhat useless against certain characters. Even if you circle it, don't be surprised when the opponent FFAD's through it anyway.
 
~tgm_Zeej

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PK Fire is useless as far as onstage uses go. Hence the (lol) after listing it as a grab set up. The only time I can land that particular "combo" is by chasing a roll after my opponent gets out.

I usually go for DJC uair after a PK Fire. Faster, and on the characters that PKF actually works on (with bad SDI, of course), is a nasty damager racker. Though stomp to bair is always a satisfying combo, I must admit.

PK Thunder is a good move, but it's not feasible to use as a projectile in the traditional sense. Kind of like Sonic's Spring in that respect. Too much lag and not enough reward for the amount of risk. It is a good harassment for aerial opponents though.
 
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