The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 21, 2009

Yeah, I remember that, that was a yr back. He was too good w/ CF's DI.

Berserker. · Nov 21, 2009

Did he win a CF against a high tier and aren't we like suppose to discuss about CF and Ganondorf--ish?

Inferno3044 · Nov 21, 2009

berserker01 said:
Did he win a CF against a high tier and aren't we like suppose to discuss about CF and Ganondorf--ish?

He almost beat Dojo's MK with C. Falcon back at APEX.

Also, I'd like to get a good in depth analysis on each and make the thread complete.

JUDGE · Nov 22, 2009

ahh inferno a question:
what happens with the thread when we complete the MU discussion?
will we make a character re- discusion or will this thread be closed?

Inferno3044 · Nov 22, 2009

JUDGE said:
ahh inferno a question:
what happens with the thread when we complete the MU discussion?
will we make a character re- discusion or will this thread be closed?

Good question. I don't want it closed immediately. I guess we could use this thread rediscuss anybody that people think the MU and/or ratio is different and can back themselves up. Also, I want one of those charts like other threads have. They are more organized. Anybody able to make one?

Matador · Nov 22, 2009

I'm really starting to think that G&W isn't nearly as hard as we're assuming...and Snake's a bit harder.

G&W takes a good grasp of the basics, and matchup knowledge. SDI his Bair/Nair, utilize your OOS attacks properly, tech the Dthrow 90% of the time, and have unpredictable approaches...and watch for his smashes. It's not that difficult a matchup...never has been for me.

Snake, on the other hand, can effectively wall Mario, and severely limits his options with Ftilt and Utilt. Nair aerially walls us out, and Dthrow techchasing is a *****. We build damage quickly, but he doesn't even die reliably until 120% and higher.

I personally believe those two matchups need redicussing...whether or not we do it in this thread is completely up to you Inferno. You definitely did a great job with this one, and I wish I had the talent to make that chart for you T_T

hippiedude92 · Nov 22, 2009

Snake isn't that * terrible.. it's just that you have to work sooooooooooooooooo much harder.. and you HAVE to get the lead and play flawlessly which is mad gey

:mad: · Nov 22, 2009

hippiedude92 said:
Snake isn't terrible.. it's just that you have to work sooooooooooooooooo much harder.. and you HAVE to get the lead and play flawlessly which is mad gey

How is that NOT terrible and we consider it a 55:45?

Matador · Nov 22, 2009

hippiedude92 said:
Snake isn't that * terrible.. it's just that you have to work sooooooooooooooooo much harder.. and you HAVE to get the lead and play flawlessly which is mad gey

lol, you basically just made my point. Good **** Hippie.

Srsly, when you have the lead (high %), and he's 0% with a fresh stock...what are your options? And please don't tell me camp with fireballs, he can camp WAY harder.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 22, 2009

I got a question, how is Mario vs Diddy Kong is 50/50, I'm still having trouble w/ Diddy Kong. Can we re-discuss that?

Matador · Nov 22, 2009

I could break down that one myself. Mario actually does well vs Diddy, as does anyone else with a reflector/fast aerials. Mario has both XD

Inferno3044 · Nov 22, 2009

Matador said:
I'm really starting to think that G&W isn't nearly as hard as we're assuming...and Snake's a bit harder.

G&W takes a good grasp of the basics, and matchup knowledge. SDI his Bair/Nair, utilize your OOS attacks properly, tech the Dthrow 90% of the time, and have unpredictable approaches...and watch for his smashes. It's not that difficult a matchup...never has been for me.

Snake, on the other hand, can effectively wall Mario, and severely limits his options with Ftilt and Utilt. Nair aerially walls us out, and Dthrow techchasing is a *****. We build damage quickly, but he doesn't even die reliably until 120% and higher.

I personally believe those two matchups need redicussing...whether or not we do it in this thread is completely up to you Inferno. You definitely did a great job with this one, and I wish I had the talent to make that chart for you T_T

I would like to finish C. Falcon and Ganondorf unless you think we discussed everything. After that, I might use this thread unless you guys think it would be neater to use another thread.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:
I got a question, how is Mario vs Diddy Kong is 50/50, I'm still having trouble w/ Diddy Kong. Can we re-discuss that?

Same as above. I have people I wanna rediscuss myself.

hippiedude92 · Nov 22, 2009

to snake, if he has like 70%, to him with godly ally di, it's like 20% to him xDDDD

BSP · Nov 22, 2009

Matador said:
lol, you basically just made my point. Good **** Hippie.

Srsly, when you have the lead (high %), and he's 0% with a fresh stock...what are your options? And please don't tell me camp with fireballs, he can camp WAY harder.

1) run. 2)taunt before you get tilted

Seriously, there's not much you can do. If you have great spacing you might be able to safely land retreating bairs, but besides that, snake can probably retaliate to anything...and it will most likely kill you

fromundaman · Nov 22, 2009

I personally don't have that much trouble with Snake TBH.

Hell, even on Wifi, where you can't really punish his ****, he lives longer, he can camp you more effectively, etc., I still don't find him that bad.

I dunno... 50-50 sounds about right to me, considering Kirby/Snake is 40-60, and this MU is considerably easier.

EDIT:

hippiedude92 said:
to snake, if he has like 70%, to him with godly ally di, it's like 20% to him xDDDD

That's just Ally DI (otherwise known as WTF HAX! DI). It has nothing to do with the character XD

Matt07 · Nov 22, 2009

Okay Snake I agree is worse then 55:45, should be a bit higher in his favour.

GnW, I've never played one yet offline, but I know I dislike them from WiFi

.

I play a Diddy Kong here, fun match-up. I think it's a really even match-up.

But I'll provide my input when we discuss them xD.

BSP · Nov 22, 2009

Woops, i always forget that wifi has an effect on matchups, guess it's important to mention it. It's definitely in snake's favor on Wifi, but i dont know about offline.

FOX16 · Nov 22, 2009

i think diddy vs. mario is 55:45 diddy's favor. It's just really fustrateing when your playing aginast a high level diddy player not one who just throws a nana followed up by 'x'. we a banna he can just bait our cape and can punish almost anything Oos i know most of you might disagree with me though. smarter diddys will just punish when they can...

-Vato

Matador · Nov 22, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
I would like to finish C. Falcon and Ganondorf unless you think we discussed everything. After that, I might use this thread unless you guys think it would be neater to use another thread.

My bad dude, didn't mean to derail the thread.

*Agrees with Vato on 55:45*

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 22, 2009

Are we done w/ the CF and Ganon matchup? We already know that the matchup is in our favor, Mario vs Diddy has to be 55/45 Diddy, Diddy is more aggressive w/ those bananas and it can pressure us. Mario vs Snake matchup still the same to me, play smart, spam fireballs, take him to frigate opheron, battlefield, YI, brinstar since Mario does too gud w/ his juggling around the platforms which that pressure Snake and gets on nerves. Have some good spacing vs Snake like Luigi do.

fromundaman · Nov 22, 2009

mariobrouser said:
Woops, i always forget that wifi has an effect on matchups, guess it's important to mention it. It's definitely in snake's favor on Wifi, but i dont know about offline.

Everything is in Snake's favor online...

That being said, I agree with 55-45 Diddy. Cape isn't the only tool we have against him, BUT, in general, he can pressure us pretty badly. Fireballs help a lot in this MU in disrupting him though.

Inferno3044 · Nov 22, 2009

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:
Are we done w/ the CF and Ganon matchup? We already know that the matchup is in our favor, Mario vs Diddy has to be 55/45 Diddy, Diddy is more aggressive w/ those bananas and it can pressure us. Mario vs Snake matchup still the same to me, play smart, spam fireballs, take him to frigate opheron, battlefield, YI, brinstar since Mario does too gud w/ his juggling around the platforms which that pressure Snake and gets on nerves. Have some good spacing vs Snake like Luigi do.

If you guys say we are done. C. Falcon ratio sounds like a little debate though. I saw a majority of 60:40 Mario but I saw a couple of 55:45 Mario. Can we try and get that. Also I say vs. Ganon is 65:35 Mario.

JUDGE · Nov 22, 2009

Matador said:
I'm really starting to think that G&W isn't nearly as hard as we're assuming...and Snake's a bit harder.

G&W takes a good grasp of the basics, and matchup knowledge. SDI his Bair/Nair, utilize your OOS attacks properly, tech the Dthrow 90% of the time, and have unpredictable approaches...and watch for his smashes. It's not that difficult a matchup...never has been for me.

Snake, on the other hand, can effectively wall Mario, and severely limits his options with Ftilt and Utilt. Nair aerially walls us out, and Dthrow techchasing is a *****. We build damage quickly, but he doesn't even die reliably until 120% and higher.

I personally believe those two matchups need redicussing...whether or not we do it in this thread is completely up to you Inferno. You definitely did a great job with this one, and I wish I had the talent to make that chart for you T_T

GOD **** IT!!! iwas thinking exactly the same and wanted to post this and i saw you already did it^^
i mean REALLY the same thing!!

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 22, 2009

CF, it doesn't matter to me, it's still in our favor and same w/ Ganon. Can we re-discuss anyone after we done w/ CF and Ganon MU.

Mario vs Falcon. 60/40 arguable for 55/45
Mario vs Ganon. 65/35

JUDGE · Nov 22, 2009

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:
CF, it doesn't matter to me, it's still in our favor and same w/ Ganon. Can we re-discuss anyone after we done w/ CF and Ganon MU.

Mario vs Falcon. 60/40 arguable for 55/45
Mario vs Ganon. 65/35

wh is it 55:45 vs falcon
we **** him
for me it's definetly a 60:40 and against ganon a 60:40

Javon89 · Nov 22, 2009

Ok so in conclusion....

For Falcon, 60:40 Mario

For Ganon, 65:35 Mario

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 22, 2009

Dang, I dunno, I'll say 60/40, if you play a smart Falcon player, I say 55/45, but I'm mostly going for 60/40 Mario. It depends on what Falcon player we play and overall most CF players look easy to play against, but I don't wanna underestimate their skills b/c karma can get me. o_O

Inferno3044 · Nov 22, 2009

OK. I'm gonna go with the majority on both.

C. Falcon: 60:40 Mario

Ganondorf: 65:35 Mario

For the Mario boards, should I make a new thread for rediscussion or continue using this?

Matador · Nov 22, 2009

Separate re-discussion thread.

Matt07 · Nov 22, 2009

Continue with this thread.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 22, 2009

Continue w/ this one.

Javon89 · Nov 22, 2009

Seperated threads

Berserker. · Nov 23, 2009

I'm gonna start with the evil one:

You should take advantage of his laggy moves. OOSing Up-B is great against ganondorf and comboing Ganondorf will be fairly easy. Avoid getting stomped by Ganondorf in terms of being meteor smashed or getting spiked while your at the ground at around 88%. You can attempt caping his recovery (if you brave enough) and lastly becareful about your percent since ganondorf can kill at around 40-50% with stomp or whatever.

I don't know anything about C. Falcon -_-

A2ZOMG · Nov 23, 2009

Matador said:
I'm really starting to think that G&W isn't nearly as hard as we're assuming...and Snake's a bit harder.

G&W takes a good grasp of the basics, and matchup knowledge. SDI his Bair/Nair, utilize your OOS attacks properly, tech the Dthrow 90% of the time, and have unpredictable approaches...and watch for his smashes. It's not that difficult a matchup...never has been for me.

I beat Warpstatus's Mario like exactly 66% of the time with my G&W, and he's like leagues better than me in general, actually being a power ranked player (his Mario btw is quite good...I believe Vato taught him the character). I still think it's solidly 65/35, and the problem with this matchup is how easily G&W gimps you. Weak hit of F-air (or the strong hit for that matter) usually gimps, and his D-air is very scary offstage too.

His D-tilt is also mad gay to work around, since it is too disjointed and low lag to punish with a KO move, and stops most of your approaches. If he doesn't spam anything, you can never land F-smash on him since his ending lag on pokes is too low, so it's not viable for killing him. Saving Up-smash is critical against G&W, since it is the most reliable KO move against him.

Snake, on the other hand, can effectively wall Mario, and severely limits his options with Ftilt and Utilt. Nair aerially walls us out, and Dthrow techchasing is a *****. We build damage quickly, but he doesn't even die reliably until 120% and higher.

I agree that Snake is ridiculously hard.

Personally me, I think beating Snake requires too much matchup knowledge and patience to beat normally, since he survives too long and kills too early. The matchup looks doable in high level play, but it seems like only a few of our players have the skill to make the most of Snake's weaknesses (easy to juggle, limited safety on recovery moves). In theory, if you can set up a gimp effectively, you're set, but doing that is really not very straightforward.

vato_break · Nov 23, 2009

Snake is very hard basically you have to gimp snake or you don't win(snake can easily live to 200% if you waste a smash move early), however i think mario's fthrow and proper spacing is perfect for this. If you can cllip his second jump near the ledge(ftilt,bair,cape,jab,even fludd) you can easily get a lead and camp. Matador has mentioned camping is bad, ok yeah thats understandable but you aren't camping for the sake of geting a percent lead you should be camping to punish a mistake the snake makes. If you do approach at all fireball>sheildgrab is pretty amazing because as i already mentioned above it's vital you get a gimp on snake at a early %. Fludd is pretty good in this matchup. you can c4 gimp him, fludd him if he's holding a nade by the edge and also pushing snake away when you need room. This match up is 60:40 even 65:35 snakes limits too many of mario's options and his uptilt is bigger than mario himself.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Nov 23, 2009

Vs Snake in my opinion, it's one of my fav match-ups w/ Mario. I mostly play this match-up 24/7. G&W is a big PROBLEM, G&W got that power, he can easily edgeguard us, having the better aerial game and ground game and having the better priority. If we try to combo G&W, he'll do a combo breaker due to the better aerial game. Fighting Snake seems easier cuz we can gimp Snake better than G&W. Some Snake players falls for our combos in low %'s like for example: Up-Tilt > Up-Tilt > D-grab> Pivot Grab (Up or Down Throw) > juggle. I know Snake is sooo freakin' hard to kill due to one of the DI's in the game. Smashes sometime don't work on Snake, gimping is the better option to me. G&W is a whole different story, -___-, the only thing we can do is to take advantage of his weight w/ our smashes. It's hard playing gay w/ Mario against a G&W player, but it's better to play gay around Snake.

KirinBlaze · Nov 23, 2009

FFReverse Uair or just Reverse Uair on Ganon is the best combo starter ever once you hit him he can't do anything. So many up tilts.

10uptilts

JUDGE · Nov 23, 2009

guys, i dunno how the hell you wanna gimp snake???
in theory it's so easy i know.
his recovery is so stupid slow, it screams for a fair, bair or cypher grab(then fludd his c4 recovery)
but we all know THIS IS JUST THEORY
i myself have to fight a very good snake on a daily base and his DI is so ridiculous good i CAN'T GIMP HIM
he always recover high and survives with his DI til 170%
his spacing and camping game makes me mad and his tilts(especially uptilt) are so stupid broken
he racks up damage too quickly and kill us at around 100%
we can rack up damage quickly but we can't kill him fast (if it's a good snake) AND FOR GODDESS SAKE WE CAN'T GIMP HIM REALIABLE
snake vs mario is NEVER a 55:45

hippiedude92 · Nov 23, 2009

l think if snake is set up correctly (corrected planted c4s, landmines to limit mario's options, snake's wall of gayness) mario def loses by like 65;35

if he isnt set up, mario can do pretty decent but still a uphill matchup...

probably even worst if snake has lower port priority, since him grabbing mario with nades plays a big part of on stage too

worst situation i ever found myself was... me being on the ledge, snake spaming upsmash and has a land mine/c4 behind him so i cant cross over him... worst situation ever....

KirinBlaze · Nov 23, 2009

I'm pretty sure if you just Ftilt Snake while he's offstage near the ledge he's pretty much ****ED.
I watched Boss do it to Ally so many times. All it took was one Ftilt and Snake was pissing his jumpsuit.

It was most enjoyable to witness.

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