Official Toon Link support thread, home to the Knights of the Drowned Kingdom!

Fawriel · 10-12-2007, 02:27 AM

The new young Link

Hero of Winds

Do I hear some applause here, people?

This is the new official thread for discussion concerning the new young Link's appearance in Brawl in his famous cell-shaded style from the critically acclaimed Wind Waker and the already crazy popular Phantom Hourglass for the DS.
But, no. Actually, that isn't quite right.

This is the new official Wind Waker-style Link thread. It exists in preparation for his imminent revelation on the Dojo! It exists for the subsequent celebration and the gloating over the crying remains of his opponents.
That is how certain we are.

And that is exactly why we decided to post a new thread with a better name and better content - to replace the old Wind Waker Link's moves-thread. May it rest in piece.

Now let's get crackin', shall we.

Reasons for Wind Waker Link, or:
Why he is just that awesome.

Wind Waker Link, let's call him that from now on, is important.

He is Link. That makes him the central figure of the games, just like a certain other guy who is considered an irreplaceable character in the Smash series.

Despite this, he is a completely different person. Their names are similar and they share a certain destiny and, well, wardrobe. But they live in different times, or are heroes from perfectly different retellings of one story, if you flow that way, they have different lives, fully different personalities and utterly different styles. Calling Wind Waker Link "just another Link" is like calling all Fire Emblem lords with swords "Marth" or "Roy" depending on their haircolor.

Not only are they different persons, however. They are from practically different universes.
The Legend of Zelda series has split up in two directions. There are the darker, more mature titles, represented in the style of Twilight Princess and the game's Link, with his calm but determined demeanor, his appearance that almost resembles watercolors, and of course, his age.
But there are also the child-like, the colorful games that are Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, the Minish Cap and the Four Swords games. All these use the style our Wind Waker Link pioneered, and they express this colorfulness, the child-like sense of adventure and exploration. And that is arguably what this series is about.

While I have no proof for this, the young Link is the true face of the Zelda franchise. A bold claim, yes. However, didn't Shigeru Miyamoto create the Zelda series with the intention of creating games that incorporate the feeling of exploration he had as a child when he ventured through the surroundings of his home? Isn't that the feeling he wanted to convey with these games, this innocent curiosity, thirst for adventure, the mentality of a child running and climbing across its little world, making up fantastic stories about the places it finds?
You will have to take my word for this, but I believe that this style and this Link are the ones the very creator of the series prefers and regards as truer to its very soul.
And judging by the popularity of the games, Japan seems to agree.

He would be unique. Some say he's just a Link. In a way, they are right. But only on the paper.
Does Brawl so far have any innocent, brave children, small heroes full of energy and wit, with such an impressively expressive face?
Does Brawl so far have any small and fast characters whose strategy relies on keeping the foe at a distance, keeping their options low while pelting them with projectiles and other tricks, to finally move in with a launcher and proceed to edgeguard? Are Link or Samus fast enough for this? Are they evasive enough? Do Pikachu or Diddy have nearly as many long-range options, such diversity?
I don't think so.

He's just cool. Honestly.

Reasons against Wind Waker Link, or:
sakurai ttly said no cloens

There are many "haters" of the little guy, some of them even among my friends. There are various reasons for this, few of which I find plausible. I already stated some of these, but I shall go into more detail here.

"He is just another Link."
Most common one.
Cynical reply: Luigi is just another Italian plumber, Falco and Wolf are just more Space Animals, Zamus is just another Samus while Sheik is just another Zelda, and the Jiggernaut is just another puffball.

To be fair, I do understand this point. There are certain similarities, and I'm as big a fan of diversity and such as can be.

But the point stands that besides those few similarities, the relation between them is no different from those I listed.
I do not see the point in having Jiggly when all she does could be done by Kirby, who deserves it more. I don't see what's so great about Wolf or even Falco when they are just more pilots with inexplicable fighting prowess.

If you can convincingly defend those characters while bashing WW Link, I'd like to see you try.
But as it stands, this point is not big enough to counter all the pros that I listed.

"CLONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Actually, this is probably the most common one.
For some inexplicable reason, people hate so-called "clones" and continue to gleefully abuse Falco's pillar combo.
What constitutes a clone? In Melee, it was a character who, due to time constraints, has motions taken from those of another character, with a different model, different stats all around and a move or two altered for diversity.
Now how can you say that any character will be such a "clone" when you haven't played the game? There are no great time constraints that I am aware of, and every character so far seems to have had no involvement in copyright law violations.

But of course, some people seem to think that having a few similar moves makes characters clones. How interesting.
In that case, I suppose that Sheik and Samus are clones because they both have a sex kick, upwards spiral aerial and aerial back-kick. And they have chargeable projectiles! Oh my! And don't even get me started about Kirby and Jigglypuff.
It goes so far that some characters are characterized in people's minds by one singular attack. Sonic is a Jigglypuff clone. They roll. That they do. Nevermind the fact that everything else is completely different.

Now, try to imagine Falco looking completely different from Fox and being from a different game and whatnot. You'd get the occasional "they have so many similar moves", then people would shrug and happily use Fox and his tactics who are completely and utterly different from Falco's.
The same is the case for Link and young Link. Link is a swordsman who has some projectiles to back him up. Young Link is a projectile monster who happens to have a sword. They function completely differently.

But even still, a whole lot of people are going to happily show you just how different from old Link WW Link can possibly be.
More about that later.

"The cell-shaded style won't fit" ( or: "IT SUCKS >=(" )
Does the word "Tingle" tell you anything?
Do the terms "Snake" and "Pikachu" in one sentence evoke any ideas?
And if you still think it doesn't fit or you're just one of the latter type, I'll tell you that he doesn't even need to be cell-shaded. Wind Waker Link was cell-shaded in his games, yes. But he was cell-shaded because that is a method used to convey a cartoon style in a 3-d environment without the hassle of having to create thousands of sprites. If Sakurai believes that he knows a rendering method better fit for the little guy, more power to him. As long as he keeps true to the art style, everything is alright.
And if you don't like that, go back to watching manly American TV shows or something.

"There are more worthy Zelda characters."
Sort of.

First: Note that the Zelda series has 5 characters in Melee. 3 are the obvious holders of the Triforce. One is Sheik. And one is Young Link.
Sheik might leave ( this is not the topic to debate this ), and even if he/she/it/potato doesn't, who knows whether there won't be even one more representative? With that in mind, let's look at some candidates.

Midna: Midna is someone I'd characterize as likely. She has everything going for her that she needs, besides recurrence. And that hasn't stopped other characters.
Tingle: Wasn't unlikely, but is really just comic relief and was shown in a manner that suggests a non-playable status.
Skull Kid: A good choice, but obscure. He never really gained notoriety. If he wasn't in in Melee, I doubt that he'll make it.
Vaati: Has recurrence, but not a whole lot else. If I remember correctly, he was a main villain once, then used by Ganondorf. He seems like a filler villain and probably also failed to really become popular.
Sheik: Is popular for being cheap.

I don't know about you, but I find one of those actually likely and think that Tingle could still be playable. I also think that 5 Zelda characters are a given and that it could be that Zelda gets 6 or even more.
So, honestly, where is the problem?

Movesets, or:
This is where I link to stuff.

Aaah, movesets. The one aspect of a character that really everyone cares about in some way.

Unfortunately, it's also a point that causes much fighting, as there are those who want for WW Link to show off all sorts of unique items and flashy tricks while others want him to just be a fixed version of Melee's Young Link, with unique A moves and the same B moves with some changed properties. Actually, the latter is just me, it seems.

There are many reasons for a unique moveset where WW Link can really show off all the cool stuff he acquired in his adventures. There are countless movesets, and I couldn't just decide on one. So, I'll link you to some noteworthy posts from the previous thread showcasing some possibilities.

Auralancer's complete and unique moveset; some interesting b moves here.

Venus of the Desert Bloom's Overall SSBB Thread, with a unique WW Link moveset right in the original post.

Some cool b-move ideas by twilight_hero.

OddCrow's b-move ideas.

Xianfeng had some ideas, too.

Here's Kabyk-Greenmist's moveset. It's very colorful!

Dynamism's awesome rant about Young Link that is not actually a moveset but brings up enough ideas to be listed here. It's awesome?

As a Young Link user, I would also like to defend my position regarding WW Link's potential position as Young Link's spiritual successor. Since everyone already shares the previous opinion, I don't think I have to elaborate on it.
In my eyes, the idea behind Young Link's moveset was brilliant. I'll quote The Buzz Saw in his Young Link guide "The Kokiri Konqueror".
"In order to master the art of Young Link melee, one must understand the flow of battle. It is futile to memorize a large table of individual moves, their damage/knockback, and "when you're supposed to use them". Battle tactics should be studied relative to given scenarios (not to each of Young Link's moves). Young Link scores KOs in a four-step process: strafe, ensare, strike, and konquer."
"So, what does it mean to "strafe"? The definition (courtesy of dictionary.com) is "an attack of machine-gun or cannon fire from a low-flying aircraft". Young Link is our low-flying aircraft; his bombs are his cannon fire, and his bow is his machine-gun. Close enough. Young Link's projectiles have limited knockback, so their purpose is only to inflict damage and connect combos. The idea with the low-flying aircraft is that the enemy cannot fight back (unless they have long-range artillery of their own). Young Link should always keep his distance while strafing. The whole purpose of this phase is to increase the opponent's damage while taking none yourself."
"The opponent is not going to take too kindly to your strafe action. In fact, some opponents will be so aggressive that you will never have had time to even begin a strafe. This is where you really have to play smart. Young Link is a defensive aggressive character. He excels at receiving attacks. The strafe acts as the bait because if the opponent chooses to ignore you then they will suffer an endless rain of projectiles. This is the part where Young Link prepares his booby traps. You want to ensnare the opponent as he comes to get you. They will not realize that they are only tangling themselves further and further into the spiderweb."
"This is the fun part. After the opponent's damage has risen to a substantially high value, the time has come to make your attack. This is the part where Young Link must knock the opponent off the stage (you're not playing on Onett, right?). As was just mentioned, Young Link fares a bit better at receiving attacks than giving them. So, you may find yourself ensnaring the opponent for a punishing strike. Young Link is faster than most players give him credit for. Even if you cannot bait the opponent into a trap you can still make a successful assault."
"This is where you finish the job. Konquering involves intricate edge-guarding technique. Young Link probably has the widest array of options when it comes to edge-guarding."

Shortly put, Young Link is a small and swift trickster with tons of options for attacks from a distance and for edgeguarding.
The only reason why he's so low on the current tier-list is that his cloning process was rather half-*****. His attacks don't link together well and while his movement speed is great, his moves are comparatively too slow and the fact that his short grappling hook ultimately gives him a worse recovery than his far heavier old counterpart is just a testament of this.
I believe his overall stats and the idea behind his b-moves should remain intact while his A moves should be changed to better meet his needs and to adequately display his distinct personality.
( Not to mention that all the B moves old Link uses are the most significant items in pretty much all Zelda titles! )

With that in mind, I created this moveset.

Oh, by the way., or:
=D

If WW Link gets in, he's bound to get a stage.
And the best stage I can think of is the arena of the final battle in Wind Waker, the top of Ganondorf's tower, with the ocean crashing down at the sides.

Imagine it.

The most epic stage ever.

Wind Waker Link for Brawl!

Knights Of The Drowned Kingdom, the club listing, or:
These people vote for Green.

A Link to the Snitch
AuraLancer
Burning Lava
Copperpot
courte
D4RK_HUNT3R
Dark Nemesis
Fawriel
Gotann
Isaac Brawler
JJJ.Brawler
Johnknight1
Kabyk-Greenmyst
Legolastom
Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man
Meta_Sonic64
MrEmperor
Neader
Niko90
Nintandy²
Ogre_Deity_Link
PaperLink
Pluvius
PXG
reu_1303
shellblade
smashbot226
Stryks
Tahtah
VVayfarer
Will19
Wiseguy
Yaya
ylink_underestimted
Yukiwarashi
zero suit falcon
Z. Hoot

Aryman · 10-12-2007, 02:30 AM

Awesome. I'm all for this as long as he's got some aspects from Phantom Hourglass, the Wind Waker sequel. Which btw is the best game on the DS right now. There are a few items from that game I could see him using...

You have my support!

Tony_ · 10-12-2007, 02:33 AM

WWLink=New Young link. This link will have the guise "Young Link" just under a different graphical structure.

Fawriel · 10-12-2007, 02:39 AM

...you guys didn't even have time to read the thread unless you are really **** fast.
...oh well.

By the way, to my fellow "Wind Waker Link's moves"-supporters: I'm sorry for being late. I started writing this somewhat late, it took hours and then they decided to move the server. I couldn't afford to wait past 1am considering that I needed to get up early for uni.

ylink_underestimted · 10-12-2007, 02:46 AM

this thread is epic XD nice Fawriel and everyone who helped. so sorry i couldnt get the chance to...my bad guys. really. i think i can help when i can in this thread

xianfeng · 10-12-2007, 02:47 AM

I made a moveset for him ages ago...

Fawriel · 10-12-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ylink_underestimted

this thread is epic XD nice Fawriel and everyone who helped. so sorry i couldnt get the chance to...my bad guys. really. i think i can help when i can in this thread

Actually, I wrote all of that myself apart from the part I quoted from Buzz and the stuff I linked to.
I figured the post would stretch out too much if I include the movesets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xianfeng

I made a moveset for him ages ago...

Then how about you link to it?

xianfeng · 10-12-2007, 02:52 AM

It was in that thread Wind Waker Link's moves it had pictures and stuff, I liked it but it was like deep in there somewhere.

ylink_underestimted · 10-12-2007, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawriel

Actually, I wrote all of that myself apart from the part I quoted from Buzz and the stuff I linked to.
I figured the post would stretch out too much if I include the movesets.

Then how about you link to it?

yea good point...well maybe if i have the time i'll post up a moveset (after i finish my Megaman one: plz tell BlueBomber my sincerest apologies)

do all the "WW Link Moves" thread helpers know about this other than me?