Marth's grab game

Let me start off by saying that Marth has the weakest throws out of the entire cast.

Yes...I know...it sucks. It sucks hard. But just because his throws are weak doesn't mean they are useless. He actually has a great grab, and it gives him what he needs and that's positioning advantage. Marth's throws put his opponent right where he needs them to be to set up his spacing/control game. As a community we need to talk about Marth's grab game and what he can do off of his grabs. Grabs are the best way to deal with shielding so we all have to know how to utilize them to their full potential. We all know what his grabs aren't capable of, but how many in our community know what they ARE capable of? This write-up will serve as an outline of Marth's grabs and how they can used. Hopefully it will give people in this community some ideas and maybe even change the way they see Marth's grab game. I'll talk about each throw, their uses, their damage, set-ups and guessing games as well. I'll also talk about a little something I have been messing around with lately.


F-throw - Marth throws his enemy forward and twist his body around when he does it. Does 4% damage. Doesn't send your opponent far at all. Especially at lower percents. From 0% to 5% you can do f-throw to f-smash. And it's pretty much guaranteed. Tested it in practice mode vs lvl 9's who dodge perfectly. They also DI throws. From 0% to 5% it always hit. So I'm calling it a grab combo from my observations. Does 23% damage altogether since the f-smash will tip. If this can be escaped then I'm guessing the window is pretty small and even if they airdodged, if you expect this then you get a free hit anyway. Which brings me to my next point. People will airdodge throws on reaction, so capitalize on this. Wait for that airdodge then punish with Dancing Blade or re-grab and throw again. Also at lower percents, this puts an opponent at perfect range for Marth's spacing game. From there he can zone with tilts and fairs. So this really helps him in terms of spacing. At higher percents they can DI farther away, so be sure to chase them down. From there I would just zone since it's safer but if you know they will shield then you can grab gain.

D-throw - Marth smashes his opponent into the ground, sending them backwards and takes a little bit more time turning around then he did with his f-throw. Does 5% damage. His opponent doesn't even go that far at higher percents. You may find yourself relying on this more at higher percents, since it has very little knockback. This throw is the perfect spacing/guessing game set-up. At low percents you can also follow-up with an f-smash if they screw up their DI. Usually though you can just wait for that airdodge and then punish or wait for the shield and grab. Again, the safest route is just to go for spaced fairs and tilts, since you can control the pace of the match that way, but if you are feeling like you want to push the advantage then you will want to wait for a reaction usually and then punish it.

B-throw - Marth leans back and tosses his opponent backwards. Does 4% damage. This has the same trajectory as Marth's d-throw. Since Marth takes a little bit longer to recover from this, I see no reason why to use this over d-throw since it's a bit worse.

U-throw - Marth uses his sword arm to throw his opponent into the air. Does 4% damage. Now this is one throw I need to use more. This throw is good for juggling of course. Once your opponent is in the air you want to either wait for that airdodge then retaliate or draw out the airdodge with a fast attack that has little recovery time and then punish. Sounds simple enough, but it takes alot of practice. This throw would be better to use on large opponents who are bigger targets, so it's easier for you to juggle.

So, by looking at this we can see that Marth's throw game is really just about augmenting his control game and giving him an easy way to set-up his zoning. Get the most out of that positioning advantage in his throws to maximize their effectiveness.

Now I'm going to tell you about that little trick I was working on. As you may or may not know, when a character is being pummeled by another character repeatedly, they will get out of the grab and land on their feet on front of their opponent. From there both combatants are at neutral with each other and neither character has frame advantage. Well of course, this works out well for Marth. Since when an opponent gets out of the pummel grab, they will usually be at the distance of a tipper fair or Marth can re-grab if they don't expect it. So he may not get frame advantage. But he gets an advantage in spacing.

So with this little trick. Marth can do one of several things. If your opponent didn't expect to break the grab you can re-grab. If you want to play safe and or just play a spacing game, then proceed to zone with tilts and fairs. Usually a d-tilt since you are both on the ground. If your opponent hesitates or shields just grab. If your opponent is used to this tactic and you notice that they roll, start waiting for that roll and then punish. Usually you will want to play the zoning game or re-grab. Those are usually your best bet. Alot of what you do will just be based on reading your opponents habits, so watch your opponent and pay close attention.


Also let me just give a few tips in regards to Marth's grabs. Marth's standing grab has good range, but his dash grab, not so much. So when you are running be sure to hit shield and then grab when you want to grab. This way you can use his standing grab from a run. Less lag and you get to use that good standing grab range.

Another thing to keep in mind is pivot grabbing. Just dash past your opponent and then hit grab and the analog stick in the direction of your opponent. Marth will wheel around and grab. You can also do this in the initial dash animation. It's very tricky looking when done at very close range and can catch your opponent off guard.

And remember to get in those grab hits before you throw someone. Get that extra damage in and make that grab count. Also grab hits regenerate your moves so that's a plus.

Alright, so that's it. I'll let everyone just talk about Marth's grab game and comment on anything that I said. I just really felt like the Marth community needed to talk about this since it's pretty much his greatest flaw.

Discuss.

lol you can chain 3 forward throws on FF characters (ex. the spacies) like three times for 12% at 0%. I think you might be able to get a shieldbreaker or a tipper f-smash depending on how far they DI backwards. Yeah I really do not use the u-throw for marth for some reason, thanks for pointing out the usefulness.

Actually, I've been thinking about Marth's grab game as well, and I've come up with several things I want to test that I feel could help Marth out greatly...However, I'm not as generous as you, Emblem Lord, and I don't want to give my thoughts away just yet, heh.

his grab range is soo bad its an actual hand length now lolol. man i wounder how pple like ken play as a marth. grabs barely do anything except put u in a good situation. oh wait the opp. can press L or R at ANY time and doge it....

You must have missed Emblem Lord's point. There may be some useful applications for this...Perhaps not AMAZING applications, but we can still capitalize on grabs and make the most of them...After all, it's pretty much the only way to beat shielding, so we may as well capitalize on them.

Of course, I do agree with you in the fact that airdodges make it hard to capitalize xD

Marth's grab range is still good.

Just not hax.

shield pressuring with attacks and using neutral b is the best way to make people stop shielding. Its just a matter of mixing fairs wit short hop neutral b to make people stop shielding or aniliate the shield altogether. The only real useful application to throws is mostly off the ledge where u can throw them off and go for a gimp but even then its hard -_-. Works best against spacies cuz u can forward b them all the way down till they cant up b bak no more. but yah only time i ever go for grabs is shield grabs people are so spot dodge happy in brawl -_-.

I don't want to rely on neutral b too much, but hehe relax bro don't talk about it too much.

You're..uh..you're taking material that I'm going to be using for my next thread. XD

But anyway, I think Marth's grabs can still be useful especially at lower percents. Marth is all about good spacing and his grabs give him that. So why not use them?

I know that fthrow does more damage than the bthrow. You say it's better but I find myself getting amazingly easy, low percent kills from them sometimes due PURELY to the spacing argument you were mentioning before. I'll upload a video of this sometime(it'll probably be against a computer, but know I've done this in my matches both on accident and on purpose before).

Basically, face away from the stage, about one "Marth" width away from the edge and grab your opponent(obviously getting to this point in the match is an entirely different matter). I'll do some testing on this to make sure about the %'s that this works at, but I believe it's anywhere between 10 and 25%. Basically, you do your backwards throw(you'll end up facing away from your opponent), jump backwards(although it may have been a short hop, I'll double check on this) WITHOUT TURNING(basically jump, then DI away from the stage a bit), and quickly meteor smash. The spacing has worked out for me perfectly to set up for a meteor smash. Due to the low damage, characters with good recovery can still recover, but for any characters that don't have a stellar recovery, it's just a matter of edgehogging to kill them.

I found this out when I jokingly challenged a friend to a 1v1 battle at a party with one stock(because other people were waiting). He played ike, and I was marth. I ran at him, countered an attack, he went off the edge, jumped over me while I was on the edge of the stage, I grabbed him, threw him backwards, jumped/short hopped, dair'd and edgehogged. Match lasted between 8 and 12 seconds. =]

But I'll reply with a new post when I figure out the kinks with this. =]

Honestly...I don't see this working on good players. They can just fall and grab the ledge. The only way you will dair them is if they jump. Which they don't have to do.

Just tested it out. And ya, emblem lord was right(lol, I'm still pretty nubbish). It can easily be escaped by just not jumping. But even then, I mixed up a few details:
It works around 35 damage.
It was a short hop.
You don't DI away from the stage, just short hop Straight Up and dair
And if they fast fall and grab the edge, I found it's possible to fast fall, up-b, and you'll end up smashing them against the stage if they don't get up on the stage in time because their invincibility frames last just enough time to do so. If they do get back on the stage, then no worries since you already have a hold on the edge.

Anyways, use the knowledge to better your game, or don't use it at all if it won't =] (but ya, in the end, Emblem Lord is right =])

I know that for the fthrow to fair to nair does work, but its escapable.

I'm one of the marths though that has really left the grab game behind, it was great and melee and I wish it could be in brawl. I hope you guys find something here but I think right now the best app is simply changing timing of the shield happy people.

FearDragon, I'm glad to see that you've used one of my favorite tricks with marth, but it also seems you noticed how easy it is to escape the move - also to be noted...at the damage that you are looking at, a good number of characters can do their up b and just make it back to the stage.

I was testing a lot with Marth's grabs today, but mostly just fthrow combos and jab infinite. So far I know the Lucas/Ness infinite also works on Wario and ROB, and it doesn't work on Pit. When any of these characters have been released, you can almost always follow up with a fsmash. I plan on testing out the infinite on other characters as well later tonight.

Bump for great justice.

AuraMarth said:

Ahh good to know, I never thought of f throw follow up f smash tip.

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ROFL
did melee really die that long time ago?

I have made ******** comebacks by resorting to camping the edge of the stage (standing, not hanging) waiting for a slip up, dodging or shielding, and the shield-grabbing, followed by a down-throw to Dair spike, and then edgehogging.

Also, for some characters, Dthrow chains to reverse Fsmash if done well. Depending on where you are on the board, this may be more favorable than Fthrow.

I have seen Marth players often do a f-throw chain throw vs Snake at low precentages, often following up with a fair.

Ehh, sorry if this has already been posted up but I want to share my thoughts with the board.

Now, I rarely use Marth's grab anymore, however I tend to just pummel the crap out of them when they are at high percents (to get off the move decay). More over since they are at high percents, it will take awhile for them to get out of my grab which means more pummeling action!

Sometimes my friends tend to shield after they break free of my grab for they fear the side smash (they're still stuck in melee). Anyways, since they shield so much, I use a shield breaker on their ***. Not sure if this is very helpful to you guys.

Z0mg!! Yesterday I lost a match with my title on it because my head wasn't in the game and I let my friends say stuff that got to me, so I did some major training today and I found out the most hax stuff in training mode.

First off, against some characters (mid-weight, I tested on Falco) Marth's Dthrow chains grabs about 4-5 times. If you make the last throw a forward throw, it links to Dancing Blade, which leads to running off Fair, which chains to double jump Nair which is a 0 to death combo if executed excellently. I was only about to test this on level 9 computers so far, but I was able to do this consistently and consecutively. This worked on FD, but I believe Battlefield is smaller, so it should work there as well.

To spell it out, from 0 damage, grab and down throw Falco, then right after, dash backwards and grab him again. After 4 down throws (you can fit 5, but it's not as good with the combo), grab and perform a forward throw. Then run forward and link your side-B to it. NOTE: there is a very brief window where Falco MAY be able to air dodge. It's not really a problem most times though, because unless your timing is unlucky, the air-dodge will cancel into the ground and your opponent will still be open. Using the side B, you can knock your opponent forward if the are close enough to get knocked off the board (they should be). From here, run off Fair. Computer Falco's do not side B recover well, so if you think the opponent is going to Side B, just SHFFNair (I don't even know if this is needed). Run off and Fair (or jump and Fair if they DI up), and the use the second jump to link to a Neutral. Finish with Up-B to ledge as your opponent sinks to their death. Presto, 0 to death combo in Brawl.
Also, for the Side B, if you're good at predicting your opponent's Air dodges, or can time Fairs and Nairs so that the ground cancels your opponent's air dodge, you can use an up variation of Dancing Blade, and use that to finish punishing Falco off the edge.
NOTE: Dancing Blade does link to both Dthrow and Fthrow, but if you make the 5th throw a down throw, Falco might be able to Bair and break it. Falco may be able to Fair you after the forward throw, but since the opening section of Falco's Fair has almost no knockback, it can only interrupt the first part of Dancing Blade, and you can simply initiate again, then finish the combo.

Dthrow, Dthrow, Dthrow, Dthrow, Fthrow, Dancing Blade (if interrupted by Fair, simply side B again), Fair, perhaps another Fair, Nair.

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL.

Marth's Fthrow chain throws on heavier characters with a slow Fair like D3 or Ganon. This can be followed up with Fair, Dancing Blade and I'm still experimenting to see if you can do an opening dash or walk Fsmash tipper. After that, edgeguard to K.O.

STILL NOT ALL

Unfortunately, this is bad news. I tried to do the first combo (the one that opens with Down Throws) on D and it didn't work. I also tried it on Bowser and it didn't work. I tried to figure out why (their stun and spacing was fine) and realized that for some unknown reason, Marth takes longer to dash backwards after Dthrowing larger or heavier characters, which stops the Dthrow combo from working on them.

Against ligher characters with a lot of float, I haven't been able to chain throw them past 13 (not useful, lol)

Pierce, that sounds freaking awesome. Could you come up with a list on who this does and does not work on?

Test this on a player and get back to us on that. I really hope you're right, but since we can't be sure until a few things are tried, I'm going to remain a bit skeptical.

1) Try jumping out of the dthrow
2) Try aid doding right before hitting the ground on the dthrow
3) attacking out of the dthrow
4) DI'ing to the left and right
5) Fast falling to dtilt/ftilt/jab w/e fastest attack is
6) Anything else you can think of?

I wish I had someone I could test this with, but sadly, I don't =[

I'm off to school, and when I get home, I'll be playtesting this a lot, so I can get some accurate results, and I'll send replays to someone who wants to put it on YouTube if it works.

I'm excited too.

I've found in a lot of matches that grabbing is crucial in the beginning of the opponents stock to rack up damage. Also, occasionally replacing what your opponent expects to be a fair or tilt with a grab is a good way to get a grab in, regardless of his grab range.

the down throw chain is nice what perice said but good players will escape with 15%

at 0% u can do 2 fthrows and the 3rd one tip a fsmash for a good 30%.


no more hax grab legnth >=(

Ya I found that d-throw chaingrab works with lots of people. Fun to do. I first found it out on falco 2 ^_^

Oddly enough I find sometimes that f-throw, charge f-smash, and punish air-dodge works sometimes at lower percents as well...too lazy to really test it. Sometimes grab, jab a couple of times then throw might mess up their DI if they think you're gonna jab them till they break out and start mashing...other than that i'm out of ideas

I use fthrow to chain into fairs or go into a dancing blade. I try to pull it off whenever I can, be it a shield grab (against when I have to play defense) or running grab (I often run -> R then A straight after to increase my grab range). Personally I don't like his other throws.

feardragon64 said:

And if they fast fall and grab the edge, I found it's possible to fast fall, up-b, and you'll end up smashing them against the stage if they don't get up on the stage in time because their invincibility frames last just enough time to do so. If they do get back on the stage, then no worries since you already have a hold on the edge.

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That sounds like it'd be too easy to edge hog :/, you sure it works as smooth as you say?

Not sure if this has already been said but I have little time. The u-throw can KO at higher percents on the top platform of battlefield. This can be good if you u-aired to land on the platform and can grab your opponent as he falls (then again, if he's at that high of a percentage he'd probably die from the u-air, or it would send him high enough that you couldn't grab him quickly, so nevermind).

But see what use you can make of this. It definitely would not be an expected finisher, but is extremely situational.

Hope this helps.

feardragon64 said:

Just tested it out. And ya, emblem lord was right(lol, I'm still pretty nubbish). It can easily be escaped by just not jumping. But even then, I mixed up a few details:
It works around 35 damage.
It was a short hop.
You don't DI away from the stage, just short hop Straight Up and dair
And if they fast fall and grab the edge, I found it's possible to fast fall, up-b, and you'll end up smashing them against the stage if they don't get up on the stage in time because their invincibility frames last just enough time to do so. If they do get back on the stage, then no worries since you already have a hold on the edge.

Anyways, use the knowledge to better your game, or don't use it at all if it won't =] (but ya, in the end, Emblem Lord is right =])

Click to expand...

Can you post a video of this? I'm really confused...<.<;;

Bump.

I <3 Marth's grab game, and a grab that should really be used more is up throw.

You can juggle with it, and once they land on the ground (usually by air dodging) just grab them again because they will be vulnerable. Great for racking up damage.

^ At low percentages, Uthrow on fastfallers sets up for classic Utilt action. You may have to follow their DI a little, but it's free damage.

It's good on Falco, Fox, and Wolf for example, but you can do Fthrow to Fsmash on them from 0% (A Fox/Wolf that DIs away will be tippered I think, but if they have no DI, it'll be untippered but still connect).

Lol speaking of Uthrow, a couple days ago I did a Uthrow chain on Falco, Melee style. I know it's escapable, but man it felt awesome.

That's escapable though.. right?

I would guess so. (you're referring to Fthrow -> Nair -> Fsmash right?)

Yes.

10yes's

Steel2nd said:

Bump.

I <3 Marth's grab game, and a grab that should really be used more is up throw.

You can juggle with it, and once they land on the ground (usually by air dodging) just grab them again because they will be vulnerable. Great for racking up damage.

Click to expand...

Tru dat, i need to use that more tho.

Steel2nd said:

Yes.

10yes's

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Actually no that combo of f-throw>nair>f-smash counts as an actual combo in training mode. Although I would say if your opponent has ridiculous SDI skills he could escape the nair.

EL has to update things in the OP because Marth's grab game isn't as bad as he says. Because C. Falcon is the worst at everything . He was probably exaggeratting so I don't really blame him.

Two throws I want to throw in for discussion (no pun intended): d-throw and u-throw. The d-throw chain that was described earlier seems very escapable, so can somebody tell me if it is or isn't escapable? And for u-throw how do you guys do your juggling? I usually do something along the lines of jump>DB stall>u-air when the opponents get in range. If they air dodge I FF with them, regrab and u-throw again. And if the u-air hits I repeat the process again.