Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

Meta Knight's Revenge:
The Official Match-Up Thread​

The difficulty and colors are read just like DanGR's Character Board Specific Match-up Chart Project thread:
30/70-10/90 (Red) -Big Disadvantage
40/60-35/65 (Orange) -Disadvantage
55/45-45/55 (Yellow)-Around Even
60/40-65/35 (Green)-Advantage
70/30-90/10 (Blue)-Big Advantage


Snake


Difficulty: 55:45

"Grabbing and Tornado are the best solutions in the Snake match-up IMO. If you F-throw, D-throw, or B-throw you can set it up into tornado or other devastating combinations. At 0-very low percent, MK can up air 5 times Tornado but a much safer option id say is 4-5 up airs to N-air and then when both characters are falling when you reach ground level, tornado before he reaches ground (so you don't fall forever if you do it higher). If you F-throw there gonna air dodge eventually. Wait for it an then pick their poison: N-air, U-air, D-air, Up-B, Tornado, etc. A famous combo people like to do is D-throw to tornado. Now this is up to the snake to work at times. The snake can DI away and put a shield or as soon as he gets out of the grab take out a grenade. Be careful when you do this. For this combo you need very god reaction speed. If they DI away you dash attack. If they DI close, you tornado, smash attack, etc.

Snakes gay D-throw game is as i said: gay. The tech chase requires no skill at all and rack you up high damage and even death if you get repetitive or if they guess right. Honestly, the first step you should is learn how to mash out like super fast because snakes usually like to pummel before the down grab so you have a chance. If you do get D-thrown, honestly, hide your controller lmao. I main snake too and I'm a dirty cheater XD its so easy looking at others controllers and knowing what their gonna do. Avoid being grabbed as its stupid. Try not to return to the stage to high in case of grenades and mortars. Watch out for the dumb snake trick where he drops a c4 jumps and activates it usually when they are recovering from high they do this. Be wary of mines. Don't use F-tilt or D-tilt as you have much better options in this match-up.

If near the edge and you get a grab in, D-throw or F-throw. Get ready to D-air them and PRACTICE NOT LETTING A SNAKE RETURN TO STAGE. This is very easy. Go to training mode and check out scenarios in which he tries to come back and try to stop it. IF A SNAKE STARTS RECOVERING WITH THE CYPHER, UP B IT IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT WORRY. YOU WONT DIE NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE. YOU WILL GET HIT BY THE CYPHER WHILE THE SNAKE WILL BE SENT FAR. YOU CAN ALSO N-AIR AND D-AIR HIM WHILE RECOVERING TO LURE OUT HIS CYPHER AGAIN TO UP B IT.

So in this match-up don't make mistakes and be careful when your in the nineties as a lot can take you out. Don't be a dmbrandon and start drill rushing towards snake making it obvious (lol <3 diem) This match-up is not even if the Mk knows what hes doing and doesn't choke. Its obviously in MK's favor.

Bans: Halberd, FD
Counterpicks: DELFINO, Frigate, Yoshi's

Also, here is a video for MKs needing to beat snakes that can really help lol. This is M2K vs Candy. Watch this video alot and it should help drastically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK-0BPkQIiU

Note: M2K is the best player in the world. Candy is one of the best Snakes in the country."

-Ksizzle


Diddy Kong


Difficulty: 55:45

"First off, there are a lot of theories about how MK should play this match-up. Such one has patience when he has his bananas out and being aggressive when he doesn't. It doesn't work, the next move MK does determines what's going to happen next, the playstyle you choose to fight Diddy with is generally meaning-less. The match-up for MK is dependent on whether he is successful at approaching or not. Now being over-aggressive or overly-passive is bad, but everything in between is fine.

The reason this match-up is dead even (I will take you all down if you argue!) is because Meta Knight has no solid approaches on Diddy and if the Diddy player limits them to the best of his ability it makes the match-up incredibly difficult for MK to get in grabs or sword strikes. Diddy can punish practically everything OoS with a banana that MK has, such as F-tilt, SH fair, glide attack, D-smash, you name it. I will say a basic rule: Don't ****ing tornado on the ground! I primarily get a lot of damage from tornado happy Meta Knight's because Diddy's shield in fact rarely ever gets shield poked if he aims it up by this move. It's more likely to break the shield rather than shield poke, it's very odd but useful in Diddy's favor. However, the tornado can be good if he's coming back down to the ground.

Gimping. If you've ever played a good Diddy as MK, you'll realize how hard it can be to gimp him when he's recovering. He just has so many options and mix-ups that you'll rarely ever get a low percent gimp, only a few minor damage from aerials. Although a falling N-air from the edge will stump him from recovering directly below you. Just don't get side b grabbed offstage, if it doesn't result in you being footstooled to your doom, it will result in him getting a free pass back on-stage. If worst comes to worst, Diddy will just charge his barrels from very far away. This prevents you from hitting him offstage, but you can try to time a shuttle loop or aerial to knock him out of his trajectory.

I suppose you all may think D-air camping can be a good option. It isn't. Running shields in to approach and saving your shuttle loop OoS is a good option though however. But if the Diddy catches on he can easily bait this and punish it. It's all dependent on the players really. Grab a lot, it forces Diddy in the air and where he is most vulnerable in this match-up. Even so, Diddy has options to evade your aerials. He can side b away from you, airdodge, reverse peanut gun, or fair.

It's very likely for the first match to be played on Battlefield. The instant I am about to play a Meta Knight player in tourney I just say "Let's go BF." Because the stage striking system always goes down to that level. Good counterpicks are always anything from the top of your head that's completely homosexual. Rainbow cruise, Brinstar, Norfair, Castle Siege, etc. It's never a free win, but mostly always in your favor.

So yes, it comes down to the players entirely. Jump cancel throws and glidetossing can be nifty to use but won't make the match-up any easier. Learning how to use bananas can be said the same way, it improves your speed vs Diddy but the match-up remains the same: difficult for you.

Hope that's good."

-ADHD


"Tornado is nearly useless except when Diddy has to land (almost like using Tornado on Snake, pretty useless unless you use it to hit him when he is falling.) Diddy has the running speed to punish tornado, even if you retreat it, and he can Glide toss OOS if you end it near him.

Dair camping is also fairly weak against Diddy except for the occasional edgeguard and when you are competing with him in the air (You Uair/Nair, he airdodges, you Dair to try and catch him, misses/hits, he jumps towards you and you Rising Dair).

Approaching Diddy is really hard for MK to do when Diddy has a banana in his hand. Air attacks will usually just be shielded fairly easy and then punished with a Glide toss, up or forward or even backwards. Ground attacks are also fairly easy to punish. Something to note however is that MK can use his tilts at near maximum range and fairly safely put pressure on him, although you have to be aware of what his options are too.

For example, let's say you hit Diddy's shield with Ftilt when he is pretty far away. If you do just the first hit of Ftilt, Diddy can't punish it unless he buffers a Toss (Not a glide toss, that adds a few frames to the execution) while he is in shield stun which is pretty hard to do if you did not predict the Ftilt far enough in advance. However, if you are literally near tip range of Ftilt, if Diddy does decide to Glide toss Backwards, he would move out of range for you to punish. However, the trade off for Diddy is that it will take loner for his Banana to reach you, giving you more time to PS even if you take a misstep and do another hit of Ftilt really fast. If you are close and you do Ftilt, you can time the second hit of Ftilt to hit him when he tried to toss a banana at you and stop him. Same for the third hit, however obviously if you guess wrong and do all 3 hits of Ftilt and he is still shielding, you are gonna get punished for it. If you stop after the first or second hit, he can only punish you again with a buffered toss, which you can punish him for doing with another hit of Ftilt. Basically, it comes down to whoever guesses right the most. I would give a slight edge to MK though in those situations, in that he is the one who can use his range to Ftilt/Dtilt and force Diddy to react to that, where as Diddy really can't do that.

Overall, I would give MK a slight edge in the matchup. It's fairly similar to the Wario matchup, you have to think outside the box a bit, rushing down usually isn't as effective as using your range to zone these characters better, and both characters are amazing at punishing MK when he makes a mistake which makes for a more level playing field."

-DMG


Ice Climbers


Difficulty: 55-45

"-You can actually D-air camp, and if you space it correctly avoid the U-air and hit them out of it. It's kind of tricky though.

-Always ban FD. It's not fun. Tornado and retreating to a platform is a good tactic. The worst that can happen is you eat an U-air.

-Keeping them split up is vital. Less chance of a chaingrab and a stronger chance of gimping Nana. Nair works really well to split them up.

-Be aware of getting grabbed before 40, even if they are split. Popo alone can chaingrab you til then allowing Nana to catch up, and that's not good.

-The walking blizzard is really gay and hard to get around if they do it right. The best thing you have is to approach from above and bait them to U-air so you can punish from there.

-Their side-B is kind of annoying, but you can eat it up with Nado or Nair/UpB them out of it to split them up off stage. The spacing for it is kind of hard, though.

^^Some small things to keep in mind. The matchup is close if they play it correctly."

-Dojo


"NEVER go FD against IC's. It's almost impossible. You need platforms. The best stage is probably Smashville for the neutrals. CP them to Brinstar. If they ban Brinstar, go to Rainbow Cruise. Be VERY careful if they stay ICs on Rainbow cruise they can still chaingrab and kill at insanely low %'s there. There's really is no simple way to beat ICs. You HAVE to play super campy and gay. Run the timer if you must.

Good Neutrals: Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Bad Neutrals: BF, PS1, Lylat

BANS: Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 2


Reason why BF is horrid against them:

The IC's have an insane U-air, and can rack up damage through platforms freakin' fast. They can also blizzard camp under platforms like a mad man. It's very hard to approach them, since you can't really go on the ground because you risk being grabbed. Strike Battlefield right away.


Reason for PS1 is bad:

Although not as bad as BF, it's kinda like playing against Snake. IC's will make you come to them under the platforms and camp the **** out of you with U-air, ice blocks, and de-syched blizzard, but the stage does switch, so it's not as bad.


Why SV is such a good stage against IC's.

Smashville makes it very simple to camp IC's with the moving platform. I know I've personally just stayed on the platform as it moved across the stage against them. It also gives you earlier chances for an up-B gimp if they land on there. Nana probably won't shield it.


Why YI is a good stage:

Well, the big platform in the middle is bad for IC's to blizzard camp, since you can just move around it and it leaves one of the IC's open for a second too long. That's about it. i don't think I've ever lost to Lain on YI; definitely my favorite stage to fight him on.


WHAT TO DO AGAINST THE BLIZZARD.

Until recently, I've just waited for Nana to jump and hit them with a D-air, but you can DI through the blizzards into a N-air or D-air. Approach IC's from the air at all times. Retreat with tornado to a platform. If you see a good chance to grab the IC's, do it. But only do F-throw! If you want to run towards them, do a SH N-air into D-air. If you see that you have separated Nana, try your best to gimp her skank ***. If not retreat to a platform."

-Judge


"1. Never dash attack.

2. Never land on the ground after an aerial.

3. Only tornado when Nana is desynched or when you can safely escape onto a platform furthest from IC's.

4. Once you split them, don't just go after Nana. Sometimes it will be more beneficial to adjust targets to effectively keep them separated or gain a quick kill on Popo. Be smart.

5. Don't spam d-smash. F-smash is much more safer and has a better chance of shieldstabbing Nana.

6. Be VERY careful with f-tilt. Use the first part of the tilt as a poke and only finish the 3 hits if you're guaranteed the combo. I see a lot of MK's get grabbed because they'll do the full 3-hit f-tilt on a shield.

7. Be really careful when you're at 0%. Even if you split the IC's, if Popo manages to grab you, he can CG until Nana successfully regroups to finish the job."

-InfernoOmni


Wario


Difficulty: 55:45

"First thing to understand: Playing aggressive vs Wario is a recipe for failure. We have well documented cases of MK players thinking they can beat Wario in his face with speed, and then they get shield grabbed 50 times in a row and die. As boring as you may think it is, the best strategy vs Wario is to play the waiting game. Your goal should be to use your range to force Wario to approach as Unsafely as he can. He only has two choices, he can either take a risk and approach you, or he can wait for another opening. If he is down % wise, he's eventually gonna have to approach you, and under the stress he might make bigger than expected mistakes for you to capitalize on.

If Wario gets the lead and wants to play a keep away game, don't bother too much chasing him in the air. MK's strong in the air, but he moves slooooooow compared to Wario. Try to focus on where Wario will most likely land, and try to strike him with something relatively safe.

Wario can't compete much on the ground with MK, just using Ftilt, Dtilt, and Fsmash to zone him. Knowing this, he knows his best option to approach is to come in from the air, and then land close to you to get a grab/Fsmash off. Occasionally he will Dair you, but it's fairly unsafe compared to airdodging into MK.

First match, take him to either FD or Smashville. Battlefield is ok, but I think it might be the worst neutral for MK when it comes to facing Wario.

As for counter picks, pick something that is a safe bet, like Delfino, Possibly Frigate, (if you play gay enough, Brinstar is for you too), and Rainbow Cruise is a MAYBE due to the fact Wario can also abuse that stage pretty bad."

-DMG


King Dedede


Difficulty: 60:40

"I had the pleasure of 3-1ing Atomsk in a 20$ MM at Apex. <3 Atomsk xD

D3 is a pretty basic matchup if you know what to do.
Tornado = Amazing. Atomsk figured out alot of ways to work against the tornado. He can utilt, ftilt, dsmash, fsmash, bair, dair, and pivot grab it. Or simply shield it all and chase and grab. He's gotten really good against it. -.-

The key is knowing when to use it. Wait for waddle throws, and bait ftilts. The ftilt only hits you during startup so if you're out of reach you can nado and usually land it. Waddle has so much lag behind it, if you start it up when it's coming you'll hit it. If he shields it, pull away to bait him out of the shield and go back into him for the last landing hit to pop him in the air. He caught on to that so I started mixing it up between doing that and simply retreating. It worked nicely.

Uair strings works wonders in racking damage early on. Try to end it with a nair and follow it up with a nado or something to keep it going if possible. Just be aware of his dair and bairs, and you'll be fine in the air. Edgeguarding him for an early gimp is kind of hard and a little dangerous. The best thing I found was pressuring him to make him use all his jumps then his upb. Then nair him or upb him when he's at the peak to knock him out of it. He has no choice but to upb which allows another free hit. If you do this when he's particularly high he'll die freshly at about 140ish. He lives so **** long... but it's not an extremely hard matchup if you play it right.

Also if he's losing badly on a stock, please be aware of the suicide KO. It's super homo when it happens. Atomsk tried it every time last stock because he was like at 180ish and I was at like 30. That's what I got on the D3 matchup for now."

-Dojo


"Sorry Atomsk, but I'm gonna let you guys in on a gay thing DDD has on MK.

If you get down-thrown, be wary. If you don't do anything, you can get jab locked to dash attack and its extremely gay. Atomsk's little secret.

Something good DDD's like to do is fast fall towards the ground and immediately up tilt OR roll left or right and immediately up tilting. It's gay and can work. PLEASE don't fall for it.

OBVIOUSLY, if your gonna play to win your gonna need to tornado a lot. This doesn't mean spam like a *******. Spam smartly. If he's above you, keep count of his jumps and tornado when he's falling. What's he gonna do? B-air, D-air, Inhale? D-air has like a 25 percent chance of going through. B-air has to be timed correctly and be fast. Inhale has to be aimed properly. **** him with tornado. PLEASE don't approach a DDD with tornado. You'll get up tilted. If your tornadoing his shield, move out of there......AND MINDGAME HIS *** AND GO BACK TO HIM BECAUSE HE'LL PROBABLY START CHASING YOU. If he's on a platform, up air chains to N-air. Then when both are falling to the ground, RIGHT BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND, start revving up the tornado.

Something good I learned in the MK vs DDD match-up is double N-air. It's extremely good unless the DDD has enough brains to power shield and F-air you. N-air his shield,, then N-air immediately after his shield. It should be low. Pierce him with tornado.

I F-air a lot vs DDD, as you can see with my set with Atomsk at Apex.

The only throws you should do vs DDD are D-throw and F-throw. D-throw to tornado is a good strategy, but some DDD's like to DI away and up tilt the tornado that's approaching. Wait for his dumb head to calm down then proceed to touch him with tornado. F-throw, then read his air dodge and N-air, U-air, D-air, tornado, anything you'd like.

Don't ever glide attack DDD when he's on stage. You will get punished for 12+ damage.

Save your down smash for the end please. Every down smash that can connect can be a F-tilt even, though you won't be needing much of F-tilt in this match-up.

D-tilt him when he is approaching the ledge from off stage. It works, trust me.

DDD's like to F-air to the ledge repeatedly. D-air him and proceed to gimp him by making him use his up-b, then N-air him when he reaches the top with his up-b.

When DDD is hanging on the ledge, go next to him while on stage and start to tornado or shield; tornado is better for the damage. What's he gonna do? Get up attack wont break it. Whatever he does he will get hit. If you're in your shield you have many choices. If he rolls, start charging down smash. If he gets up attacks, N-air out of shield or down smash, etc.

If you ever get inhaled, start pressing b. They usually like to follow up with an attack and wont expect a tornado so suddenly.

That's about it for now."

-Ksizzle


Meta Knight (Mirror Match)


Difficulty: N/A

"The best things in this matchup are F-air and D-throw. I say this. M2K says this. Spamerer, etc. They're really good for spacing and following up (F-air).

D-throw is amazing. You set up so well with this. If you have good reaction time THAT'S EVEN BETTER! Unless the Meta Knight DI's towards you, when you D-throw a MK at 0 percent, it's an automatic pseudo-chaingrab to another D-throw. Yes it works. Go try it. D-throw and run and shield at higher percents because some MKs like to F-air as their DI'ing away.

D-air camping to tornado actually works if you space it well. If you don't, they'll be fast enough to U-air you so watch out

Don't approach with tornado. You'll get punished easily by F-smash, up b, D-smash, etc.

Recover with side b, up b, and tornado. If you're off screen (in magnifying glass), tornado back to the stage. If you're not that far, up b. Tornado's the best recovery though IMO, but don't get predictable.

Hmm.. I guess this really is the best move on ground level for the ditto: F-tilt. A really annoying move to get hit by. Mindgame your opponent by F-tilt canceling to grabs and D-smashes.

Also, remember that every down smash you connect with in this match could be an F-tilt and leave your down smash for the end please. You don't want to have a Meta Knight living too long.

You never want to be above your opponent so much. Being juggled is gay especially if you air dodge and their near you, They can N-air or D-air, or whatever they like. If you do this, up air chain to up b at low percents. If they are high up and trying to get down, get under them and up air until they air dodge so you can do whatever you like. I prefer N-air.

When you shield an attack, you're gonna want to grab, F-tilt, or N-air out of shield. N-air out of shield is the popular one since it's so good.

Now for Meta n00bs. If you know about the invincibility frame thing on the edge to attack skip this paragraph. Have you ever wondered watching matches or videos why the MK on the ledge sometimes always hits his attack no matter what he clashes with as soon as he gets off the ledge? Well, if you're quick enough drop off the ledge as soon as you grab it and you will retain some invincibility frames from the ledge grab. With this you can quickly do any move and it will go through ANYTHING. Your invincible in this mode. So drop from the ledge N-air, drop ledge D-air, up b, etc. An extremely good edge guarding technique and good thing to know in this matchup and others as well.

Up b out of shield is one of my favorite things to do and amazing in the ditto. If they are about to glide attack you, ground up b them. You'll hit. If they tornado approach you ground up b. Same for drill rush and most forms of attack. Do not spam it. It's a good killing maneuver.

Aerial up b from under the stage facing your opponent trying to come back is amazing. If they drill rush back, do it. You,ll get hit by the one hit of the drill rush while they will receive a lot of knockback. Same with trying to recover with tornado. Now if they are trying to recover with gliding be careful. You may hit them, but make sure you grab onto a ledge or get on stage afterwards. You don't want to KO yourself for being greedy and not patient.

If you face a planking MK, get away from the ledge. If you're in the losing lead and the host of the tourney allows this, you deserve it for not doing it first. Take advantage of everything you get at a tourney. Anyways, get away from the ledge and let him come back up. Sometimes charging F-smash near, but not to near of the ledge, is good since they like to jump and air dodge back to stage.Jjust be careful since planking is real gay.

Counterpick: Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 1, and Smashville.

Ban Rainbow Cruise. Trust me. You don't want to lose a set to a gay stage like that. Luck based piece of ****. lol

Good luck with this matchup people."

-Ksizzle


Olimar


Difficulty: 60:40

Don't ever dash attack or fair into Olimar. Hell, just don't attack his shield with any move that leaves you on the ground afterwards. That's just asking to take 15%+ from a grab + whatever followup he wants. If he wants to camp you, you could stay in one spot and just continuously nair the Pikmin off (don't worry about it staling, you only need a little tap with it to gimp Olimar anyway). If you manage to get close, attack the high diagonal angles of his shield (i.e. if Olimar is facing left, attack northwest and northeast). Usmash only hits you if it's in between your dairs, otherwise the dair will knock the Pikmin away.

Side Bing straight into Olimar's shield actually isn't a bad idea if it's slightly depleted. Side B pokes shields ridiculously well, and Olimar will have a lot of trouble shieldgrabbing it with his lack of grab armor. Even better if you know the perfect ledge cancel distance. You can push him off with side B and immediately nair. Should be a free stock, if not, chase with dair or another nair. Down B/side B/jump right back to the edge and you're good.

A little trick that good Olimars like to do is uair you from below when you're edgehogging them. The move has deceptively high hitboxes and lasts long, which may outlast your invincibility. Watch out for this when they have 4-6 Pikmin, as it'll allow them to afford the drop from uair and then immediately up B to the edge. By deceptively high, I mean super ****ing high, lol. Uair goes through the sides of Battlefield from under the stage.

If you're above Olimar, you have barely any options. His uair can and will beat your dair. Prepare to take 25% from red Pikmin, 20-22ish from yellow, and close to 20 from blue/purple. Smash DI up to get out of this, the hitbox is pretty wide too. If you can, move to his sides and bair/fair him (this is pretty difficult due to MK's slow air speed though). Being above anyone in this game sucks, Olimar's certainly not an exception.

If you manage to grab him, either fthrow or bthrow him (preferably the one closest to the edge). Bait the dodge, then up B/nair/dair, or if he's at super low percents, uair chains into up B/nair/tornado. Tornado should really only be used when he's landing, otherwise you face the dangers of getting pivot grabbed. Either suck him out of his air dodge with it, or move so his nair won't touch you (it only beats tornado from the top center).

NEVER glide into Olimar! Usmash clashes with glide attack and he'll have frame advantage, uair beats it, and all his other aerials clash with it if spaced right (nair will beat it from a very strange angle, though). He can also shieldgrab it fully spaced with any Pikmin except purple, and if he's fast, fsmash out of shield. Up B also totally demolishes gliding, and if you're not prepared, you might find yourself dying pretty early. I believe the Pikmin CLOSEST to Olimar indicates the type of attack that his up B will do.

If you get hit by nair, SMASH DI UP. This move easily combos into dsmash or usmash, both of which kill MK rather early. His aerials are all really dangerous, but lack range so much that it's almost funny. Fair and bair do something like 13 damage each and will kill you at high percents. Dair's non-spike hitboxes are REALLY strong at the beginning, but not so much afterwards. If he doesn't autocancel his aerials, they all have really nasty landing lag (with the exception of nair, it's not that bad). Punish accordingly, grab/dsmash/ftilt preferred.

Olimar's smashes are straight ridiculous. Dsmash has a nasty angle and will kill MK at around 110 with perfect DI with red and blue Pikmin. Usmash kills around 105 for red/blue and 80, yes, EIGHTY PERCENT, with purple. Luckily you can just swat them away with your dair, but if Olimar sees an opportunity to run in and punish you with usmash, he will certainly take it. This means at high percents, be very sparing with your usage of tornado. It's VERY punishable, and purple Pikmin usmashes will beat it head on. Olimar's fsmash is incredibly safe and long-ranged, and he'll use this as a mix-up as you approach him through his camping (he'll switch between fsmash and grab most of the time, both are very damaging). Purple fsmash is incredibly strong, but luckily has super short range and won't hit you if you're careful with your spacing/approaches. It's not gonna touch you if you're off the ground a little bit. Also, be wary of fsmash when you're on the edge. It has ridiculous active frames that last even when the Pikmin is falling off the stage! He can also grab you from under the ledge with any Pikmin besides purple. Just outguess him on the edge and you should be able to return without problems.

As someone mentioned earlier, never dsmash just to dsmash. The move is ridiculously unsafe on block, especially on a character like Olimar with insane grab range. If you're gonna be using any smash on him, it should be fsmash. It's VERY safe on block vs. Olimar (lol 11 frame grab). Most Olimars with matchup experience will expect the standard fsmash -> dsmash on the shield and continue shielding. I like to follow up fsmashes with dash grabs or ftilts. Dash grabbing is more effective on Olimar most of the time, but it comes down to the opponent's habits and how he reacts when his shield is hit. Choose carefully. Alternatively, you could predict his obvious attempt at trying to shieldgrab fsmash -> dsmash and just spot dodge the grab and punish with dair/dsmash/grab...just try outguessing him. Point is, dsmash is very unsafe, and should only be used to punish (as in, when you're sure it will hit).

Off the stage, be prepared for whistle and air dodge combinations. Nair outlasts the whistle if they're used at the same time, and the weak hit will tap him away. This is enough to either gimp him or set him up for another nair/dair. If he's above the edge, he's got much better chances of making it back. Just wait for him to do something and nair it away (dair if you manage to get on top of him). If you knock him out of his second jump, his stock is yours. Just be wary of the tiny little hop his up B gives him, and its lagless landing on the stage. Shouldn't really be any trouble once you knock him off.

Like I said before, grabbing = lots of damage. Blue throws deal close to 15 damage on their own, plus pummels and followups. Dthrow -> usmash -> uair is over 40 damage with the right Pikmin (blue red red is the proper combination, I believe). White grabs not only have the most range, but deal 3-4% per pummel. They also have the lowest knockback, leading to followups at higher percents than normal. Know what's even worse? Olimar can kill you from his grabs. Blue bthrow will finish you at about 130 with good DI. Purple uthrow kills at about 105...but luckily it's got the least range and Olimar's lack of grab armor makes it difficult for him to grab you that close up (provided your spacing game is on).

Stages to ban:
For the first round, strike FD and Battlefield. Olimar loves both of these stages a lot. My advice is to ban either Halberd or FD. Halberd's low ceilings are very good for Olimar, given that most of his kill power is off the top. FD should be obvious, as he can just freely camp your balls off there, and you have a humongous flat stage to traverse before you can touch him. He's amazing on Luigi's Mansion (if it's legal, it certainly isn't here), but you're good there too. Same goes for Norfair--more ledges for him to grab on, but MK is amazing there as well.

Stages to use:
Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza, Jungle Japes (where it's allowed).

Rainbow should be obvious for the most part. No ledges for over half the level. However, the ceiling at the top part of the level is insanely low.

Frigate is great on the first transformation, but ends up working really well for him on the second one...it also has a slightly lower ceiling than the neutrals, so watch out.

Delfino is great on almost every transformation. If he lands in water, all of his non-blue Pikmin die. You can camp underneath the stage on the floating platform and Shine Tower parts, which works. The sand mound has a low ceiling, though, and watch for the walkoffs.

Japes is your best choice, but may not be available. The high ceiling hurts him and doesn't affect you at all. He's boned as soon as he's in the water--all his Pikmin will die and the water will rush him off to his death. The varying platform levels help you pressure him, as do thin floors--you can uair him through the platforms on the side if you're feeling ballsy. If this stage is on, take Olimar here! If he bans it or it's illegal, Delfino is probably your next best choice, followed by Rainbow and then Frigate.

Overall matchup ratios:
55:45 MK on neutrals and Halberd, 60:40 on counterpicks."

-Doom


Lucario


Difficulty: 60:40

"Ftilt on the ground beats everything Lucario can do except Fsmash. It beats everything speed and range wise. You can shield just about anything and punish with Dsmash or Ftilt (Upb OOS works well against aerials, I wouldn't use it too much against his ground moves since you are more vulnerable if you miss compared to Ftilt or Dsmash). Shielding stops EVERYTHING he can do except for grabs. This is HUGE.

The difference between MK and Lucario shielding is that not only can MK punish OOS better than Lucario in almost any aspect (Knockback on the move, speed, range, priority, etc), but MK has safer options on shields than Lucario. MK can Ftilt Lucario's shield from a pretty nice range, without fear of retaliation. Lucario can't do that to MK's shield in return.

MK having to approach because he doesn't have a projectile only applies when he is behind anyways. A lot of characters, even with a projectile, are forced to approach when they are behind, Especially if they are behind stockwise, since most good projectiles don't actually have the capacity to kill on their own (Banana's, Pikmin, Lasers, Bike tires, Grenades take forever to kill especially if stale, etc). If you are ahead, there is no "binding force" that says you have to approach because your character doesn't have a projectile. MK having to approach Lucario in any case shouldn't be a big problem since he has the tools to do so.

MK has it probably 60:40 against Lucario overall. Wario has a "reported"45:55 against MK, and he does a LOT better against MK than Lucario, so I don't see Lucario having a similar or better number."

-DMG


"The matchup against Lucario can be pretty tough as he is an underrated character with many strengths. His versatility and interesting playstyle, along with his unique Aura ability (which increases the damage and knockback of his moves as he takes damage from you) can catch you off guard and make this an interesting fight.

A good Lucario will keep you pressured with his Aura Sphere at mid-far range, jab attack and utilt at close range, and dairs/fairs for his aerial game. He also has a pseudo chaingrab at 0% with his force palm grab.
Watch out for his mix-ups as well. He can jab cancel into grab (or another jab combo), Fsmash you and then jab within the IASA frames, and utilt chain at low percents. His aerial approaches include short-hopped fair to fast-falled nair, fair/bair to dair, and fair to fast falled FP grab. Airdodging his upair usually gives him a free dair too.

On the ground, we outrange Lucario with our faster tilts, and can punish his laggy fmash/ftilt/dtilt with our own (and Nair/up B OoS). Approach him like you would an olimar, slowly while we bait a mistake to punish. Powershield any Aura Spheres he throws out and space him with ftilt/dtilt. If he attempts to Fsmash you, be careful as its deceptive range and timing can punish a bad spotdodge. An interesting technique i came upon is that powershielding his fsmash gives us a free dash grab. Don't forget to add some fairs for mixups and OoS nairs to punish.

His jab comes out in frame 6, Dtilt on frame 9, and ftilt on frame 12 (his utilt comes out in 5 but it has poor range), While our ftilt and dtilt come out on frame 4 and our dmash comes out on frame 6. So not only do we outrange him but everything we throw out is faster as well. Just avoid punishable whiffing (dont finish the last hit of ftilt unless youre going to hit as many MK's do) and space well and you will do more damage than whats being done to you.
On another note, be aware that Lucario's fsmash and charged Aura Sphere beat tornado. You'll get punished for using it recklessly.

Lucario's air game is awesome, and its how he deals most of his damage. His fair/nair come out fast and are chained well with each other, his bair and uair kill and have long range, and his dair has good knockback, great priority and range, comes out in 4 frames, and is just an amazing attack in general. It will kill you at higher percents (especially with his Aura ability)

Fortunately for us, we're a cheap character with an unrivaled air game. MK's fair beats Lucario's fair and trades with his bair, and our dair is amazing for gimping Lucario (which is how we should get a good amount of kills on Lucario). Be careful using improperly spaced uair's though, as his dair beats it. Mix it up with short-hopped fairs and dairs, and shuttle loop when he jumps towards you. Dont get predictable with SL though, as you'll get punished for it on your way around.

When Lucario is off the stage, GIMP HIM. or at least get some damage in with aerials. His recovery doesn't do any damage so staying on the ledge is completely safe since he will just fall to his doom. If he recovers high onto the stage, punish him for it. Dair is amazing for gimping, just space his slow jumps and bait airdodges and you can get really easy kills with proper edge guards.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING about this matchup that can really frustrate MK is his Aura ability. He can KO you at significantly lower percentages because of it, and deal a lot more damage. The key to dealing with it is to just keep your cool and continue to space well and bait a mistake to kill him. I've seen one too many MK's get frustrated and play stupidly aggressive and just get punished hard for it. And that probably will lose you the match.

STAGE SELECTION

For neutrals strike out final destination and yoshi's island. Final Destination is a great Lucario level, as he can camp with AS, limit our approach options, and his wall cling ability is really good so the lip doesn't hurt him as much. Yoshi's is one of his better stages too as the support ghosts can save him from easy gimps. I would prefer smashville as the single platform helps with avoiding his Aura Sphere and gives you more approach options. Battlefield is good too as it limits his stage controls and helps your disjointed aerials. The platforms hinder his game and help ours.

For counterpicks I would deff go Rainbow Cruise but chances are they are going to ban it, so Delfino is another good one (watch out for his SHdair when you shark upairs from under the stage though). Lylat is another good one as the moving stage and horrible lip can get you easy kills.

Ban Final Destination too.

I would give the matchup a 60-40"

-DarkLink


Falco


Difficulty: 55:45

"This matchup is actually a very complex one, so be ready to have your brain wracked by the end of the matchup when you play against a good Falco player.

(I'd also like to take this time to throw a shout-out to my favorite Falco player. Every time I play against Sethlon I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack after the match because he's so nerve wreckingly good at this game. Mad props to Sethlon, he is whom I am basing this information off of and he is whom I will use as the standard for a professional Falco player.)

I'm using the same layout as the one I posted in the matchup thread regarding Yoshi; each character's major strengths, the grey area where both excel, my opinion of the matchup ratio and my suggested strategy for the matchup.

For the best information I have to give regarding this matchup, start at the counterpicking section and work your way down from there.


Important character advantages - Metaknight

- Power. It's much easier for Metaknight to set up for a kill in this match than it is for Falco to kill Metaknight.

- Edge guarding. Getting back onto the stage is normally a nightmare for a Falco player against Metaknight and Metaknight play the edge game all day long.

- The Tornado is both your best friend and your enemy in this match. When used properly it's impossible for the Falco player to grab you from a Tornado, but when Metaknight is at higher percentages the Falco player can kill you with a laser into an up smash and the Tornado sets up perfectly for that. Use it aggressively to deny Falco free percent on you, then when you're at that percent anyway use it less often. Mach Tornado is also beautiful for edge guarding in the match as Falco's Phantasm gets caught by the tornado 90% of the time and makes it impossible for Falco to get his footing back when he's off the stage.

- Close range game. If you're able to approach Falco and get inside of his defenses he's going to have a hard time getting you off of him. Falco does not want you close to him; he wants you at about a mid range where he can laser for damage and set up for an up smash or up air to kill you.

Important Character Advantages - Falco

- Grab game. This is very, very important in this match. If Falco is able to get a grab on Metaknight and tech chase properly after 40%~ then he can easily put Metaknight anywhere between 50% to 80%. Bad news for Metaknight. This is one of Falco's two most important points against Metaknight.

- Lasers. Lasers limit Metaknight's approach options and stop every move he has. Proper use of lasers and Phantasms can completely stop Metaknight in his tracks and make Falco nearly unreachable, plus they can also stun Metaknight and set up for a kill. This is the other of Falco's two most important points against Metaknight.

- Stage control. This is one of the things Metaknight cannot do. Falco can take control of a large portion of the stage and hold it without ever losing any ground. If Falco can take control of the stage then he will beat Metaknight. (I'd like to reference everyone to Dojo for more about this. I've already said a lot about him, but Sethlon was able to very literally run circles around Dojo on Luigi's Mansion and if not for Metaknights very powerful edge guard and gimp game Dojo would most likely have lost the match. Good stuff on taking that opportunity though, Doj, you're super pro )

The Grey Area where both are good

- Air game. Whoever has control in the air will be dealing a sizable amount of damage to the one who is not in control. Both characters have a very strong set of aerials with multiple damage-dealing and kill moves in the air.

- Maneuverability. Both characters have amazing zoning abilities and can either chase or run from the other one very well, as well as make it a nightmare for the other player to read where they're going to go.

Stages and Counterpicking

This is probably the most valuable information I can give you for this matchup. Counterpicking is really important.

- For the love of God ban Final Destination. It's nearly impossible to win here, logically. If you don't want to ban Final D then ban Jungle Japes where it's legal. Also avoid stages and situations where you can get chain grabbed off the side of the stage.

- For neutrals you want to push for platforms to play around with, so either Pokemon Stadium or Battlefield is likely your best bet.

- You want to take Falco to a stage where you limit his stage control AND give you additional approach options. My personal favorites are Rainbow Cruise, then Delfino Plaza, then Halberd, then Norfair.


Final Verdict

I'm about to get flamed for this. There are two percentage ranges I'm going to give for this matchup.

If Falco is able to get his chain grab early - 55:45 - 60:40 in favor of Falco (Unless on Final Destination. Yeah, good luck with that stage.)

If Falco is unable to grab Metaknight - 55:45 - 60:40 in favor of Metaknight

I can't really put an overall ratio down for this match because of how dependent it is on that chain grab. Yes, the chain grab is that important in this matchup. Keep this in mind and try your best to stay away from his grabs and it will swing the scales in your favor.

My advice to Metaknight players

This is the strategy I've used against every Falco I've played against in tournament and it's brought me a lot of success so far. (Seth is totally going to beat me next time we play now >.<" )

On neutrals - Get on a platform and stay there, use tornado to try and bring Falco up onto the platform with you. Once he's up there get under him and try to get him in the air and deal as much damage as possible. Repeat this strategy until you're above 50%, then rush him down and lay into him with as much aggression as possible. DO NOT use your down smash on him until he's at roughly 115% and near an edge. Once he's off the edge just do your normal thing and either gimp him or beat his Phantasms with your neutral air, the opening frames of Shuttle Loop, or your Tornado. This is the position you most want Falco to be in: off the stage.

On counterpicks - It should be virtually impossible for him to grab you on your counterpick stage and you should be able to approach him from the bottom at any point of the stage. You want to get in, peck away a little bit and then get out as fast as possible until you're above 50%. Essentially you'll be using the platform strategy from before, but instead of one or two platforms the whole stage should be acting as a platform for you. Once you're above 50% you're free to do whatever you want, just stay close to him and keep him in the air and off the stage.

On both Neutrals and Counterpicks - Don't spend too much time trying to dodge his lasers or you'll get punished for it in a very subtle way and you'll rarely get a hand on him. Once you're inside kill range (I think it's something in the 120s but I'm not exactly sure) it's best to just stay on the ground and shield the lasers as you try to approach because if you're in the air and get hit by one you'll eat an up smash and die. Remember that your two main goals should be to stay away from his grabs early on and to try and get him off the stage and keep him there as long as possible. Falco's weakest area in this match is off the side of the stage, where you're perfectly comfortable and can still both kill and deal damage very efficiently. If Falco tries to Phantasm onto the stage catch him in a tornado and the knock him back off the stage with whatever best fits the situation. The rest is up to you "

-Infinity


Zero Suit Samus


Difficulty: 60:40

"I get to fight one of the best ZSS players in the country very often, [Snakeee] is my brother.... so i know a lot about the matchup.

The best way to play this matchup is to be very aggressive. Pressure her, she will lose in a fight with you up close. It's VERY easy to approach her if you can accurately powershield her forward b and d smash spam (which is not hard at all).

When you are right next to her just use your tilts wisely. D tilt messes her up a bit... Try to get in a lot of grabs against her and use d throw.

You should never approach from across the screen with tornado, of course, that's not very smart do against any character, but she can punish it very well with her forward b or just hitting it with a charged d smash.

Instead of using tornado on the ground, use the same strategy that you should be using against Yoshi and Olimar, which is tornadoing above her head. She can't stop it from there, there's nothing she can do if you use it correctly. So just jump over her and tornado. Keep in mind, she will be able to DI out fairly easily, but you won't get punished if you don't go too high with it.

Don't fall for her charged d smash tricks that they go for while you land... that will rack up a ton of damage on you.

Don't air dodge into her much, because her up tilt will catch you every time and put you in an unfavorable position. When she is below you, you're ****ed. Her up air will beat everything you do... so don't try to challenge it with dair while you're above her. Just try to go to the other side of her and fast fall your landing so you won't be juggled too much.
When she is charging d smash from across the screen, you can just glide attack her by going above the d smash, or just use the torando above her head, because although it does have a massive hitbox in the front of it, it does not have such an amazing upwards hit box.

When you're running at her and she's throwing out forward b's as her defense, running powershield and dash grab her. Now the fight will be in your favor again. Power shielding the forward b is very important (or just learning to shield it in general) because it is a very obvious move that can easily be shielded and punished for.

Gimping her is very tough, you most likely won't get it off if you're new to the matchup... but work on nairing her out of her down b's invincibility when she uses it to get back on stage. start the nair about halfway through the invincibilty, it will outlast it and you can hit her before her down b attack or airdodge comes out.
once you've gotten rid of that, jut try to nair or dair her last jump away and grab the ledge."

-Shadow


Pikachu


Difficulty: ???

*SUMMARIES COMING SOON*


Mr. Game & Watch


Difficulty: 60:40

*SUMMARIES COMING SOON*


Marth


Difficulty: 60:40

*SUMMARIES COMING SOON*




Bowser


Difficulty: 70:30

*CURRENT RE-DISCUSSION*

"I think that a lot of people think the Bowser vs Meta 55-45 matchup is such a joke since Bowser is such a crappy character to most players. With Meta being the undisputed best character in the game, many would assume that he would utterly **** Bowser in every way.

Think about it like this though. Both Bowser and Meta Knight are characters of extremes. In actual statistics, neither of them are balanced characters. There really is no middle ground for either of them in terms of speed, power, etc. In most cases, they're either really bad at something, or really good at something.

Bowser is really big, slow and not very maneuverable. However, he's strong and has a large range on a lot of his attacks. He also weighs 50,000 pounds.

Meta is really small, fast, and maneuverable to the max. He has long range and he attacks insanely quick. He also weighs 5 pounds.


The thing about Bowser is that his matchups really don't match up with his extreme attributes. He isn't a character that has some excellent matchups and some terrible matchups. He's a character that is pretty much made of bad matchups. (Besides the obvious things like Ganondorf and Falcon.) The funny thing about that though, is that even though a lot of his matchups are disadvantageous, most of them aren't horribly disadvantageous. They're usually only 55-65 in his opponent's favor. For the most part, Bowser matchups can be summarized into two separate groups.

Matchups where Bowser can hold his own with some difficulty.

Or matchups where Bowser is fighting Dedede.

Excluding any match with Dedede, which is clearly a mockery of a fight to begin with, Bowser really doesn't suffer horribly in most of his matchups. He does do badly in some mind you (Diddy and DK), but he doesn't perform that badly on a majority of the cast.


In the Meta matchup, Bowser has a lot of fun tools to use. The chaingrab has already been mentioned, and while it's difficult to land the grab, once he does, most Meta Knights are in for a world of pain. Bowser can chaingrab Meta to the ledge, and once he reaches the ledge, he can use his powerful Dtilt to KO him, or an Fair if Meta jumps out of his grab. If properly utilized, a perfect Bowser chaingrab can lead into KOs. And if it doesn't, it can lead into very high amounts of damage. It can also lead into an inescapable Bowsercide, which is possible if Bowser is properly positioned at the ledge when Meta is released from his grab. Of course, his chaingrab and grab release tricks do not decide the matchup, but they are effective tools when used properly.

Another thing Meta Knight needs to watch out for, Bowser's tilts and jabs. Meta's tilts will usually outrange Bowser's, but you still need to be wary of them. Bowser's jabs and tilts come out surprisingly fast, and they have decent amounts of range to them as well, not to mention KO power. Jabs and Ftilts are good for spacing, and they both come out pretty quick. The Dtilt, as mentioned before, works out of a grab release and kills very easily. The Utilt is absolutely fearsome though. The Utilt comes out fast, has very deceptive range, and is very fast. I think it'll kill Meta at 80% fresh. And funnily enough, if properly spaced, a reverse Utilt will beat Meta's Dair. Although I'm not 100% sure on this, I'm pretty sure it will beat out an Fair, Bair, and Nair as well. Simply put, the Utilt is dangerous.

Despite his large strength, Bowser is a very defensive character. He's a character that waits for his opponent to make a mistake, then punishes them. Attacks that aren't properly spaced will be met with his infamous Fortress OoS, which does decent damage and even has killing power. Because of Bowser's huge shield, he can take a lot of hits and not get shield stabbed. He can defend himself for freakishly long time while he waits for an opening. Hell, his shield can even absorb an entire whorenado. Always remember that the sooner you start getting predictable and making mistakes, the sooner Bowser will start punishing you.

An obvious thing worth mentioning is Bowser's weight. Yes, Meta is pretty strong. His Dsmash and Shuttle Loop come out near instantly, and they have good killing power to boot. However, you'd be surprised at all the crap that Bowser can survive. Just as Bowser's weight is important in the matchup, so is Meta Knight's. As I'm sure you're aware, Meta is light. Really light. A lot of Bowser's moves will kill Meta and surprisingly low percents. The Utilt and Fortress have been mentioned, but lets not forget his Fair and Bair. Both come out quick and have surprising amounts of priority and range. Both of these attacks can beat out Meta's aerial attacks if they're spaced well, so they're useful if the Bowser player sees an opening, or he just wants to clash hits.

I'm in no way insinuating that Bowser has an advantage on Meta Knight. However, it's clear that while Bowser does not go even with Meta, the matchup isn't all that bad for him. Hell, I'd take Meta over Samus any day. Fighting Samus is a nightmare for Bowser. "

-MrEh


R.O.B.


Difficulty: 60:40

"[Most] R.O.B.s out there [are] CAMPY. So you're forced to approach him. Lazers can break through the Nado NP. I've noticed if you're fast enough, You can Nado R.O.B. out of his lazer before it fires "I've been able to pull this off at about half of FD, while he was at the edge."

Don't just Spam nado at R.O.B.. If he spaces his N+Air right, he can hit the top of your nado, and send you flying... This gets very annoying...

I believe that N+air and D+air "You shouldn't even worry about this...." are his only ariels that break nado if you're giving your nado full priority by spammin B.

R.O.B.'s top can break your Nado "tho it's very hard for it to do unless fully charged. The R.O.B. has to be very accurate and actually hit were MK is".

A lil thing I love to do, Is take R.O.B.'s top from him, and just keep pounding him with Nado. It tends to get the player very irritated, and even if it dosn't, It still racks up alot of dammage, and adds that "OMG HE MIGHT THROW IT AT ME" effect.

While R.O.B. is on the ledge, Its safest to Nado out over the ledge for a quick second, and come back on far enough away so you can't be punished. Remember not to go to far back either, because he will just jump off the ledge and lazer you out of it.

You may also find it usefull to run off the ledge and D+Air him. Its unexpected, and can stage spike him if he's at high enough %.

While R.O.B. is shielding you have a few options:

-Nado at him, and be sure to space your nado well enough not to get hit from R.O.B. out of his shield. You must poke their shield atleast one time before nado can rip through it. A full shield can shield a full nado ^__^

-Short Hop F+Air him. Make sure you space this right "hit with the very tip of his sword"... If you don't, you will get punished, By either a shield grab, or an attack from his shield. If you space it right, and he goes for a shield grab, punish him. Pretty much any one of MK's attack can punish a missed grab, so you can choose which one you would like to do ;P

-Dash Grab. This is VERY risky, and I don't recommend this unless you know you're opponent won't Step Dodge. R.O.B. has the best step dodge in the the game, and if he step dodges this, you're open for a D+Smash, Grab, Or short hopped B+Air/N+Air.

While in the air with R.O.B. you have LOTS of options!

-Bait the N+air "R.O.B.'s best aerial IMO". It has great priority, Stays out for awhile, and if used right, leaves the R.O.B. unpunishable. BUT! If you bait it, the lag at the end leaves him open for a shuttle loop. I've been able to bait this many times on R.O.B.s and it seems to work pretty good.

-Up+Air the hell out of him! R.O.B. can't stop this. His D+air's wind up time is WAY to long to stop MK's up+air. You can Up+Air him about 4-5 times "starting from 0-10%" and finish it off with an F+Air. I usually play it safe and use 3 Up+Airs than and F+Air, B+air, or ^B depeding on which way he ends up when you're done.

-F+Airs work! lol yeah... F+Air him if your face to face , and make sure he isn't starting up N+Air.

-D+Air is best off the ledge. Yes it's great off the ledge with R.O.B.. If you're fast enough, You can D+Air him a few times before he can Up+air you. R.O.B. has a good Up+Air, and can rack up alot of %. So watch out for it.

-Bait the Air Dodge. This is very simple and basic, but I'm just stating it for people that don't know ;D. Just jump up at an Air dodging R.O.B., wait for the right time and punish him with a shuttle loop.

THINGS NOT TO DO!

-Don't glide in on R.O.B. if he has a top in his hands. A good R.O.B. can glide toss it and Up+Smash you. And even if he dosn't have a top, this is a bad approach because he can nail you with a lazer.

-Like I said earlier, Don't just spam nado on him. R.O.B. can punish you for this pretty easily if the R.O.B. is good.

-Don't wait for R.O.B. to approach you... That's just asking to lose. A good R.O.B. will never approach you unless he knows he will get a hit. So you have to be very aggresive, yet smart about it =P

-Don't shuttle loop an N+air untill the attack frames are gone. N+air will hit you of it.

-Don't D+Smash a R.O.B.'s shield. He can D+tilt you out of his shield and hit you atleast one time.

-Don't Dash attack much... Very rarley use this on R.O.B. because he can Short Hop N+Air you out of it."

-MisterMoo


"ROB's U-air and B-air are considered by some as his best aerials"

-JJR.O.B.


Wolf


Difficulty: 65:35

"So I'm pretty sure you all know Wolf is a VERY heavy character... This makes wolf pretty hard to kill, So saving your KO moves "D+Smash, Shuttle Loop" is key in this match up.

Luckily for us MK users, Wolf can be gimped pretty easily, and we all know MK can gimp =P.

Wolf's recovery is the way he gets gimped. Due to it being pretty predictable, and easy to stop "once you get your spacing and timming right ^__^"

When fighting Wolf, It's not really smart to run in with a nado. A good Wolf will lazer you out of it, and continue to lazer you untill you find a new way to approach.

I find it pretty easy to grab Wolf, than D+Throw to dash attack or F+air.

Ohhh and baiting wolf to shoot a high lazer at you is good. You can just FF, than run up on him. If he shields, grab, if he step dodges, D+Smash at the right time. Pretty simple ;P

Wolf is pretty easy to keep in the air, so juggling is a great option for racking up %. Up+Air Chain to Shuttle Loop is great on him.

Most Wolfs I've played are campy. But don't be fooled by that. Wolf can still be very deadly approaching you aswell. His Boot Smash is crazy good, and seeing as Wolf can cancel his lag on F+air, it makes him pretty dangerous.

When Wolf goes off the ledge, GO AFTER HIM! You're freakin Meta Knight... Just F+air/D+air him, and at Mid-Higher% he won't make it back...

Please Nado him every time he jumps in to the air... He has no aerials that break Nado cept D+Air, and he has to be very accurate. So attack him from the side with the nado. Even if he fires a lazer, its very easy to dodge in the air.

Space your F+Airs when poking his shield, and F+tilt/D+Tilt if he tries to attack you out of it "F+Tilt if he jumps at you, D+Tilt if he runs. F+tilt will also work if he runs =O".

D+Throw is my favorite throw to use on Wolf because of his heavy weight, and how easy it is to combo him out of it."

-MisterMoo


"Wolf's reflector will break the tornado, probably in part due to the invincibility frame at the beginning."

-Zinth


Donkey Kong


Difficulty: 60:40

"On ground:
Some to most Dk players tend to either charge up their Donkey Punch or go straight at their opponent with either their dash attack/down+B for hit box dmg and or their damage racking and tripping Dtilt. WATCH FOR HIS GRABS He can easily stage spike you above 25%, BY ALL MEANS DONT LET DK GRAB YOU!! He can combo you easily like that with his Ftilt Plus can put in a few chain grabs like Fgrab+Forward throw :\. Watch also for his Fgrab+ Down Throw= SPIKE ZONE :\.

Donkey Punch: (AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS)
The donkey punch is deadly when you are punishable, but the thing that makes this move much more deadlier than it is at max power, is when it's ONE swing away from a full 10 rotations. At 9 rotations not only does it give dk extra % dmg but it also gives HUGE knockback almost as hard as ness/lucas up+b when they hit you O___O so watch if he counts his swings as it can kill u at like 30% near the edge just from knockback alone. Also watch for a double donkey punch *hard to do, not to much to worry about*. the day i see a metaknight get hit by one of those is an easy stock loss for myself o.o'.

Aggressive Dk:
An approachin Dk will usually use his tilts against you as his range is WAY farther than ours of course. Watch for his D-tilt as it can rack an easy 30% with just 2-3 hits, also beware of tripping because when timed perfectly a Dk can Fsmash you. So try to DI out of this as quickly as possible to reduce chance of damage and tripping. If he keeps spammin tilts punish him through the air with fairs and dairs especially. Try also NOT to roll dodge as he will punish you greatly with his fast Dsmash. Spot dodging works SO well against a DK because of his SUPER LAG. Punish him with any combo you wish to use ^_^, i personally suggest either a dgrab/dair/fair combo.

Campy DK:
they will 99% of the time charge a dk punch first and wait for u. Most predictable Dk's will down+B most characters but with us, might switch it up with a Fsmash. Get to the skies here and fly towards him with some dairs or fairs .

You in the Air:
Dk can be both easy and difficult while were in the air :\. never in the middle *sighs*
Watch for his Uptilt as it can rack easy 30+% on u when successful. Try avoiding each hit with an air dodge. Be also weary that he can dash attack using his Upsmash. It comes out really quick so be careful when in the air while hes on ground. Punish when appropriate.

Dk in the Air:
Bair,Bair,Bair...rudest combo ever for DK >___< it has such far range that it out reaches our sword most of the time T_T. A Dk "CAN" edgeguard a metaknight player ONLY if you fall for it. Just play it smart and take advantage of our gliding/fly count.
When edge guarding a Dk I HIGHLY suggest you Dair him below stage instead of attempting to shuttle loop gimp him. Here's why: His Up+B has insane horizontal recovery PLUS our shuttle loop cant hit it unless DIRECTLY under him :\. If your not quick enough at gimping him he WILL take a chance at either Fair/Forward+B or Dair spiking you, so watch out when he's above you. You can easily gimp him if you dair him fast enough that his horizontal recovery is useless.

When flying back to stage:
A Dk attempting to edgeguard you WILL use 1 of 2 tricks if not both.
1: he will do the Bair combo :\
2: he will do the fast fall Up+B edgegrab

to counter 1:
Just either fly away from it or nado him :\ it's rather difficult to fair him while a DK is being so *****y about his feet -_-'.

to counter 2:
DO NOT FALL FOR THIS!!! It can totally humiliate us. This tech works against ALL players BUT a chance of survival goes in favor of kirby/ddd/snake/other good recovery characters and urs truly metaknight.
He can gimp you like this and possibly a huge chance of stage spiking you if your deep in the DK hurricane xD. What i advise you to do is just ignore his attempt and do not try to gimp him. You "can" be succesful with ur shuttle loop stage spike BUT I HIGHLY suggest you just run away as he has much more priority when edge grabbin with his Up+B than we do :\ so an instant death for us is just plain stupid when you can easily avoid it.*try to fly back to stage if you fail ur shuttle loop stage spike YAY HALBERDIN*

Be careful when he combines both -_- cause he will not only make us lose ALL our jumps but also RUIN our shuttle loop :\ so remember a DK attempting to gimp MK, IS "CONSIDERED" A THREAT be careful and avoid it.


Best ways/combos against a DK:
Lots of Fair's and Dairs. Gimp him ASAP!!! Never give DK players a chance to hit NEVER!!!
whorenado is VERY useful against Dk as he's such a huge target. Your Dtilt is also useful as it has priority over his Dtilt (abuse it if u can). Punish Dk for ALL HIS LAGS."

-DFEAR


"Bair, f-tilt, D-tilt(maybe) and possibly DK punch(SA) go through your tornado, so dont approach with it from afar. And its also not smart to attampt a glide attack while he's on the ground, a the DK punch's SA fames can take the hit and KO you"

-Mr.Victory


Ike


Difficulty: 70:30

"His strengths:
His forward air outranges you. His nair is deceptively lagless on contact with the ground. His jabs are amazing. His fair, bair, downB, dair easily outprioritize the tornado, even a well angled ftilt.

His KO moves:
Fair KOs at 130% (and gets refreshed quickly because of his jabs). Ftilt, uptilt, bair and upair can KO from 90%. His smashes too, except fsmash, which can KO very early. Nado doesn't outprioritize fsmash, keep away from if it'll hit. Watch out for bair!! If he's on a platform and shields a hit of yours, you may make him slide from the platform, along with the ability to instantly bair you.

How to play this one:
Good Ike players are a pain at first (if you ever get to play one, Ike's not frequently well played), in the sense that it's more of a guessing and prediction game against them than anything else.

___________________________________
- Do not attack great Ike players with tilts or aerials
--------------------------------------------------
(While he's on the ground)
Ike's spotdodge is amazing against MK. He can dodge a fair or a dtilt, frequently even an ftilt, and jab you for 14%. He can dodge dairs with no problem. He can spotdodge any tilt or aerial and perform jabs, and it works. An Ike player has to abuse spotdodging to beat MK's. Do not punish spotdodges by attempting dashgrabs, you get jabbed out of them. Besides his spotdodge, his fair also outranges your tilts and aerials, and KO's at 130%.
______________________
- Predict, or flip a coin (Mach Tornado vs Bait+Dashgrab)
-------------------------------
LIST OF MOVES THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO TORNADO (wait+dashgrab=win):
Forward air (KO's at 130%)
Back air (KO's from 90%)
Counter (hurts)
Ftilt/Uptilt (KO's from 90%)
Down air (so catch him with the side of the tornado if you're afraid of getting hit)

! - For all of these, wait and dashgrab.

LIST OF MOVES THAT YOU NEED TO TORNADO (Ike: tornado me please):
Spotdodge
Jabs
Airdodge (into the ground)

! - For all of these, mach tornado
! - Notice how these are all close-range options, so you shouldn't Mach Tornado from far away!

NEVER MT FROM AFAR
Yes, it works against Peach when she's pulled turnips out. Ike is another story. He can run away and bair you to death, he can ftilt, uptilt, forward air, counter...he has many painful options against your tornado if you let him see it coming.

- BOTTOM LINE: Tornado or space and dashgrab. Prediction is key. Since predicting works half the time, as does guessing, with your 50% guess success rate, plus the added 25% from the fact that you're actually predicting, you should have 75% control of this match.

______________________
- How to KO (gimp city):
-------------------------------

Ike has two recovery methods:
- Quickdraw:
Ike players double jump into quickdraw after being sent off the stage. You can try to intercept the move with your Shuttle Loop, but it is very difficult to pull off if he has already fired it, so you should Shuttle Loop him before he gets the chance to fire it off.

If he quickdraws into a platform, there's not much you can do about it, besides rushing into him and performing a Mach Tornado. Attempting to hit him can be risky, as hitting his shield may make him slide off of the platform and bair you. He cannot do this in FD though, neither can he do this most of the time on Smashville (lack of platforms for him to fall into), so you should take advantage of this and go dashgrab him, or even attempt another attack.

Quickdraw sweetspots into the edge too. If you predict your opponent attempting this, SPECIALLY if he starts his quickdraw at a low altitude and you know he's forced to try it, edgehog him. it's an auto stock loss for Ike.

AEther aka. Up-B (the most commonly used):
When the Ike player has little recovery choices, because of being sent in a downwards angle or lacking his airjump, he may be forced to Eather onto the stage. Here are his two choices, and how to counter them:

- If his sword toss will reach above stage:
Jump and quickly clash your Shuttle Loop into his body. You will get hit by a minor one of his multiple blows, while he gets Shuttle Loop'ed away. If he can still recover, keep your edgeguard going.

- If his sword toss can only reach the edge:
Edgehog him, but wait until the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT. This is so your invincible frames last longer than the Eather's hitbox. At the final instant his UpB can still hit you, press forward so your invincible frames last just a tiny bit longer for a successful edgehog. It is recommended that you try to hang on the edge after your opponent has pressed Up+B.

Besides taking advantage of Ike's recovery, it is insanely difficult to KO him, if he DI'es well, under very, very high percentages. You can attempt to down air offstage before he's able to perform Eather, if he has to recover from so low, that he is forced to Eather (not after though, since Eather has Super Armor frames, as we all know).

_____________________________________________
- If the Ike player does not attempt abusing the spot dodge:
---------------------------------------------------------------
This would mean you can short hop aerial and tilt him without getting sidestepped, which also means it is relatively safe to do these things, which means you have little to worry about. Non-spotdodgey Ikes make for very easy wins."

-TKD


"Quick Draw can easily be interrupted by blocking its path (preferentially performing an air dodge). Aether can be interrupted by the use of reverse shuttle loop before (or after) the Super Armor frames take effect."

-Guilhe


Yoshi


Difficulty: 60:40

"~As with any other matchup, proper spacing is key; however, be aware that his Dragonic Reverses and Dragonic Trots can really screw up your spacing if you aren't aware of them and/or don't see them coming. If you aren't aware of what these are (seeing as Yoshi isn't exactly the most commonly-played character), then go down to the 16th and 19th AT's in this Yoshi guide on Smashboards for an explanation and a video link of each:
*Yoshi Guide Link*

-Yoshi's grab game is very dangerous. He can chain grab you with grab releases and go for the fair spike when you get off the ledge. This spike is powerful and can kill you around 50% on most stages. He can also Grab Release-->Usmash for a star KO when you are around 110% on most stages. Yoshi can also choose to use a much wider variety of moves with which to follow up a grab release; in essence, it is VERY important that you avoid getting grabbed as much as possible (especially at high percents). The one weakness of this throw is that if it whiffs (from a spotdodge, etc.), the grapple properties of it scream of punishment from you with a move of your choice (except fsmash, of course).

-Although the CG is very dangerous, this doesn't mean that shielding is still not a smart option (at the right times). His smashes, for example, are quite punishable when shielded.

-Yoshi's air game is a lot better than one might give him credit for; his bair and uair come out pretty quickly (the uair being a reasonably good kill move), and his nair comes out very quickly. In addition, his quick, long-reaching bair (at certain angles) and possibly his dair (I'm not sure about the dair) can go through your tornado, as well as his tongue moves (his neutral B and his grab). Luckily, your aerial game has range and priority on his aerial game. Use this to your advantage, and space accordingly.

-Bairs are a dangerous, multi-purposed facet of Yoshi's game, but since they have little knockback, you can shieldgrab these, and should do so whenever you can. A smart Yoshi will use this as a hit-and-run tactic to pressure your shield, though; if this happens, it might be time to whip out an MT (or a tilt if he lands close enough to you). When you are at higher percentages (about 80%+), Yoshi might go past you with a bair and try to pivot grab you into a Usmash. Be wary of this option, and spotdodge the pivot grab when it comes and punish it...or you might be able to pull off a dsmash as Yoshi lands if you're quick enough.

-Dairs can be quite annoying shield-eaters; however, as mentioned earlier, you have better range with your attacks than his dairs do. If you are also in the air when he dairs, you can safely space a uair to counter his dair.

-Yoshi can be very hard to gimp because his second jump has a solid number of super armor frames during the start of the jump. Don't forget that he can airdodge or attack in the middle of that uber-long jump, too. If you do manage to eliminate Yoshi's second jump, though, his poor Up-B recovery makes him a very easy target for gimping; however, this is much easier said than done.

-Yoshi has some VERY nasty counterpicks on you, such as Castle Siege, Corneria, Green Hil Zone, and Distant Planet. Yoshi likes his stages because they either have walk-offs (Ex.: C. Siege (2nd stage), Green Hill Zone), walls where he can do infinite grab release combos on you (Ex.: Corneria), mostly-flat stage layouts (Ex.: C. Siege (3rd stage), Final Destination), or a combination of these elements. Luckily, you have some counterpicking factors on your side, as well; stages with platforms that are low to the ground (Ex.: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise) are great counterpicks because the platforms can catch you from a grab release, thereby destroying a good number of Yoshi's CG attempts. Also, in general, you fare better on stages that have lots of small platforms than Yoshi does, since your sword's disjointed hitbox is a big asset against Yoshi's aerials (don't forget that smaller platforms mean less chaingrabbing that Yoshi can do on them). Rainbow Cruise can be an excellent counterpick against Yoshi in this regard, but some of the walkoffs on the top of the rotation of the stage can be very deadly CG spots for Yoshi, so it's a double-edged sword.

-Don't underestimate Yoshi's eggs simply because they are an awkward projectile. The eggs have slight splash damage (due to the egg shards), and they actually have priority over every single one of your B moves -- even the Shuttle Loop. Your aerials can't cancel out the eggs, either. This leaves not too many options besides airdodging and fast falling in the air, which makes Yoshi's eggs a great anti-air tool.

That pretty much covers the bases. If Mmac or someone else could touch on the pivot grabbing topic, that would be awesome, because I don't know a whole lot about it."

-Rh1thmz


"The following is my opinion on the Yoshi match up. Just as a side note, Bwett and I are in the same crew so we play quite often and I feel that I very likely know this matchup better than any other Metaknight player. I'm not going to list every single aspect of the matchup, but I will attempt to stress the important points.

Important character advantages - Metaknight

- Close range superiority. When Metaknight gets in close he can do quite a bit of damage and it's hard for Yoshi to regain his ground.

- The Tornado. Using this move aggressively is not the right thing to do in this matchup, but using it defensively will save you from dying very frequently. Use it to get back on the stage or if the Yoshi player jumps up at you to try and up air you. (Quick aside about the Egg Toss: it does not always beat the Tornado. I'm not exactly sure why, but sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.)

- Killing ability. All of Metaknight's killing moves are faster and more sudden than Yoshi's and hit just as hard.

- Survivability. Due to Metaknight's superior killing ability and very good recovery options the Yoshi player will have a harder time staying alive and will have a harder time killing Metaknight in spite of grab releases.


Important Character Advantages - Yoshi

- Long range superiority. Yoshi's grab game and the spacing on a lot of his moves will allow him to regain his distance and force the Metaknight to play whatever game Yoshi wants him to.

- Aerial control. Yoshi has the fastest aerial movement in the game and it can be very difficult for a Metaknight with little experience to space Yoshi properly.

- Stage control. Yoshi can control the stage with properly spaced Egg Tosses, grabs and aerials, which makes it difficult for Metaknight to be able to approach properly and even forces Metaknight into the exact spot where Yoshi wants him to be.

- Grab releases. This offers yet another form of game control for Yoshi and can definitely lead to kills when properly set up. Plus, it offers a free move refresh.

The Grey Area where both are good

- Grab Games. Yes, Yoshi has a grab release on Metaknight but it doesn't last that long and only does a handful of percent. Metaknight's down throw game is very bad for Yoshi since there is nowhere he can go without getting hit by either a neutral air or a string of moves and eating anywhere between 11% and something in the 30s.

- Edge game. Believe it or not Metaknight only has a slight advantage in this area. Yoshi can grab release Metaknight into a lot of shenanigans off the edge including a spike on players who don't expect it. Metaknight's normal edgeguard is better than attempting to go out and gimp Yoshi in most situations, but it is very possible to just plain stop him from coming back onto the stage by just being in the way.

- Mind games. These are especially important in this matchup because both players will need to go out of their way to make the other player believe they will do something out of the ordinary. Yoshi has a slight advantage in this area due to his ranged game, but if a Metaknight player plays it patiently they can turn the tables around on the Yoshi player by feigning an approach.

Stages and Counterpicking

- 3 out of the 5 Neturals have Metaknight as the favorite. Final Destination and Smashville are good for the Yoshi player; Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, and Pokemon Stadium 1 are good for Metaknight. PS1 can be good in either direction, but Metaknight's adaptability will prove to be the key point on this stage.

- Yoshi wants to go to a flat stage when he can take away most of Metaknight's approach options. Final Destination, Smashville and Pictochat (yes, I did just say that) are likely to be the stages that Yoshi wants to go to and he is likely to either ban Rainbow Cruise or Luigi's Mansion.

- Metaknight likes options and likes to exploit every approach possible. Going to any stage where Yoshi can't space you properly or force you into his zone is your best option. I recommend Norfair, Delfino Plaza or Luigi's Mansion as counterpicks as they all take away several options from Yoshi and add to your own. If any of the above are not legal, then Rainbow Cruise or Halberd are your next best options.

Final Verdict

Metaknight has the advantage anywhere between 55:45 to 65:35. I'd rather give a range than a definite number because, well, **** happens. Metaknight has a very clear advantage in counterpicking and has a 3/5 favor on neutral stages. Counterpicking and stage striking are likely the most important part of this matchup.

My advice to Metaknight players

Don't get grabbed and be careful playing around with his smash moves; his up smash will beat your tornado and kill you in the mid hundreds although I don't know the exact percentage. Try and get him in the air and keep him just barely inside of your aerial range at first, then knock him away and keep him airborne in any way possible. When he's heading towards the ground jump up at him and wait for the air dodge, then fall with him and crush him with a neutral air or a down air. When you're high up he will try to chase you with an up air, be careful and avoid this as much as possible because it can easily kill you before 100%. Use down tilts to force a grab and then rack up damage with aerials after a down throw. Once they get to about 90-100% force them to the side of the stage and attempt to force a down smash on them. You want to be passive-aggressive in this matchup; wait for an opening, abuse the opening until you can't any more, then get out of the zone and wait for another opening. It's more difficult to force an opening than it is to just wait for one in this match. I obviously can't cover everything, so the rest is up to you to improvise."

-Infinity


Pokemon Trainer


Difficulty: (Squirtle / 65:35) (Ivysaur / 70:30) (Charizard / 60:40)

"~~~~~~~~~~

You can do it, Squirtle!
Squirtle is annoying but manageable.

- As the smallest target, Squirtle flies farther than his teammates, but is harder to hit and harder to combo.

- Squirtle has pretty good approach options as he can move fairly well both in the air and on the ground (especially if the opponent knows how to Shell-Shift well).

- Squirtle's ground attacks are quick and some of them have a lot of range (U-smash in particular)

- If Squirtle is in his shell, he CANNOT be damaged. This applies to Forward-B, F-smash, D-smash, and his turnaround animation.

- Squirtle easily has the best aerial attacks of the trio, which can cause problems for Meta Knight if you are unprepared. Fair, Bair, and Uair all hit hard and have a lot of priority. However, MK has better range in all directions, so this can easily be overcome.

~~~~~~~~~~

Way to go, Ivysaur!
Ivysaur is the weakest link in the chain (at least against Meta Knight), but still has some threatening attacks.

- Tilts are fast and deal a fair amount of damage.

- His smashes are powerful and have a lot of range. F-smash is especially long-ranged and a fresh U-smash can kill as early as 40% depending on the level.

- Ivysaur's aerial attacks aren't the worst, but Meta Knight is better in every way by a lot. Just be wary of Uair and Dair, as the pollen bursts are quite strong.

- His biggest weakness is his recovery, which plays right into MK's amazing gimp game. If you can get Ivysaur offstage and avoid Razor Leafs as an attempt to clear the ledge, he should die in very short order.

~~~~~~~~~~

Up the butt, Charizard!
Charizard is probably the most difficult overall.

- As the biggest and heaviest target, Charizard gets comobed very easily, so you'll be racking up damage pretty quickly.

-However, his weight combined with the best recovery out of the three pokemon also means he lives forever. You will almost always have to gimp Charizard to get the KO. Just be careful near the edge; Fly (Up-B) is not only fast, but has pretty high vertical knockback.

- Most of Charizard's ground attacks come out fairly slow, except for his U-tilt and U-smash. Fsmash starts up slow, but moves fast and travels pretty far, so watch out for that.

- Charizard's aerials are dangerous. Bair and Dair have more range than MK's attacks as well as killing power, but both have startup lag, so be careful. Fair also has more range but has fairly low knockback and hits at a downward angle. Uair is fast and strong, but is really short-ranged.

- Rock Smash (Forward-B) is extremely powerful if you get hit with all of it. Be aware that you can sometimes still be hit with the rock if you interrupt the attack.

~~~~~~~~~~

General...
It's Super Effective!

- All three Pokemon have pretty good grab range (aka longer than MK's) and at least one good KO throw. (Squirtle: Down; Ivysaur: Up and Back; Charizard: Up, Down, and Forward)

- Recovery is the biggest failing for all three characters. It's almost never a bad idea to chase after any of them.

- Do not let up! If you keep the pressure on PT, eventually fatigue will kick in on the current monster. This way, even if you are having trouble getting the killing blow, their attacks will be significantly weakened over time."

-Unsaxon51


"There are two ways to beat Pokemon Trainer. Either GAY THE HOLY **** OUT OF HIM. Or gimp his awful excuses for recoveries. Ivysaur's recovery goes without saying. Just try not to get yourself stage spiked like a dork by his tether when you hog it. You'll hate yourself if that was your last life. Squirtle. Two words: Down. Air. It ***** his recovery hard and you can keep dairing each time he tries until he's just out of range of edge. I'm not even a Meta main and I can pull this off with ease. Charizard is a bit trickier. If he's gliding, I recommend either catching him with tornado for free damage once he's near the stage, or using your own glide attack. It's a bit risky to put your body in his way as if he glide attacks out of it, it will KO at low percentages. It's best to take charizard out at as low of an angle as possible. Bthrow to Dair chain can sap some of his jumps leading to an edge hog gimp. don't try to attack his Up B, it has surper armor frames and kills.

The Gayer strategy is to use your speed and range to constantly poke at the pokemon while not being overly agreesive, constantly forcing them to approach you if you can. The point to doing this is to purposefully wear down PT's crappy fatigue system. If a pokemon is fatigued it will have -alot- of trouble killing you so this is in your favor, especially with Squirtle and Charizard."

-InfernoRage1


Toon Link


Difficulty: 60:40

"-Perfect shielding all his projectiles makes things so much easier.

-Try to keep constant pressure on him, so you don't have a million projectiles being thrown all at once. The less projectiles he pulls out, the better.

-Perfect shielding his zair usually results in a grab for you.

-Don't underestimate his aerials. That nair comes out quick.

-Dair is your edgeguarding move for this match. He usually tries to come up from beneath. (Santi does at least) Just space yourself so you don't get caught in his up-B as he's coming up. If you dair him and he goes towards the stage, that can lead into a Shuttle loop'd stage spike."

-Dojo


Peach


Difficulty: 60:40

"You out range her bad on the ground, just stick with tilts if she wants to fight on the ground. If you see Peach approaching with a floating Dair or Fair you can either Upb through it from the ground, try to dair them from above, or wait for them to stop (For Dair you can just Fair them sometimes but for their Fair I just either wait or Upb that sucker.)

For turnips, either catch them or just avoid them. Edgeguarding, I usually don't bother too much with it unless she is sent fairly low and is forced to float for awhile or die. As for her edgeguarding you, you usually can go high enough to where she can't hit you and find a safe way down or just be creative and not overly repetitive.

That's it, it's a pretty straightforward match IMO, just abuse your range on the ground with tilts and either abuse your range in the air, your invincibility frames with grounded Upb's, or just reposition yourself and stay out of danger. There's not much more to it than that IMO."

-Dr. Mario Guy


If they approach with float and then dair you can just shield the dair and hit her with nair oos if you time it right. If they float and then fair shield and wait for her to jab and grab her after the seccond jab.

Tornado is pretty good iirc becasue it goes through turnips.
If the peach is on the ground you should do fine with tilts, because you simply outrange her.

For edgeguarding you have to hit her before she does her up B.

-.Tero


"You guys are right that her massively outranges her on the ground. and that's a good strategy to go, but the thing is MK doesn't really have the tools to force her to stay on the ground. Also, one thing Peach can do to stay competitive on the ground is to shield and counter with a turnip. Her downsmash also more often than not will shield poke metanight, so whenever I'm near him on the ground a lot of times I downsmash. to get him back in the air and get myself some space.

MK can really mess her up with his up b invincibility frames, it gives her a hard time, that was mentioned before. Basically the more patient player will often win this matchup, MK can't be as super aggressive as usual, and Peach has to camp like crazy to create openings. Peach is lucky that thanks to her UP B its pretty tough for MK to edgeguard her, though if you make crafty use of n-air (one of the best moves against peach IMO) you can sitll do it. She cannot edgeguard metaknight period.

Peach can beat MK but relies on him being a worse player or making mistakes, or not knowing the matchup extremely well. This is actually the matchup I know best in the entire game, I could not main Peach if I didn't know it that well because I'd be taken out so often in the first couple of rounds.

Meta I feel just has answers to most of what Peach can think of, he has the tools, just sometimes he has to be real creative to use those tools."

-Edreese


Kirby


Difficulty: 55:45

"The kirby matchup can be a little difficult, but IMO its not too hard if you know what to look out for. SH f-airs can be beaten out by a rising or a ff kirby b-air, so use it to punish missed air attack. Generally, ground approaching is usually more effective. Tilts are great for poking at kiby, and grounded shuttle loop (due to its invunerabillity frames) shuts down kirbys b-air approach. Also at maximum inhale range shuttle loop will hit as well.

Its not good to use grounded tornado as it is destroyed by powerful kirby f-smash (use only at close range or near the ground in the air), and if he uses it MT on you a f-air or d-air will shut that up fairily painlessly. Also his b-air can poke a approaching (only) tornado as well if it hits at a certiaen point close to the top.

Watch when edge guarding so you dont run into a hammer or a back air, and I would say try to land d-airs and n-airs, because f-air and u-air can knock kirby up higher making it easier for him to recover.

When he is edgeguarding you his d-air can beat out SL if it is spaced correctly and stone can as well if he predicts SL so if you can use your jumps to recover or if he chases you in the air you can get above him and tornado or drill directly back on to the stage.

If he grabs you and f-throws, DI towards the upper left corner to avoid followups or if he down throws, if you jump at the right time meta will fly up, thus avoiding an up-tilt combo.

Its not good to attack a grounded kirby from above with d-air because he can shield it and grab you if your close to the ground, or shield and roll away if your out of grab range. but if kirby is in the air then get above and d-air assault, just watch out because if you miss he can hit you with an u-air before you can attack again.

In this match try to save you d-smash if possible. It will be key to be able to KO kirby fairily early as normally he can live 10-20% more than meta can. Kirby f-smash will generally kill once you are in triple digits."

-DJ Iskascribble


"Kirby can be a really hard match up, if the kirby knows how to play it.
Let's face it Kirby has good ground game, good air game, good edgeguard very, etc.

Kirbys bair has insane priority and can go through our aerials if they time it correct, fsmash is ridiculous good and can hit through tornado.

So basically watch out for:
- Bair
- Fsmash
- Grabs

While recovering you should know that kirby can edgeguard your upB with bair and your nado with fsmash, so side b and sweetspot the edge would be the safest thing to do, but remember to switch up because they can always punish you if they know what you are doing.

iirc mks ftilt goes through kirbys bair if you time it correct (3rd hit?), we also have more range so we should be safe on the ground. If MK is in the air you should space your fairs extremely well, because good kirbys will space their bairs just as well.
Generally i would suggest playing a good ground game is safer in this matchup."

-Tero


"Kirby has a couple things going for him.
- Multiple jumps
- Decent range on bair
- Decent grab range
- Good damage output

Keeping Kirby from approaching should be the main idea. If a Kirby player wants to approach, he shouldn't be able to win. Kirby's main form of approach is dashing into a shield, which is countered very well by a dash grab. It's also rendered ineffective by tippered fairs, retreating or otherwise.

Don't let approaching work for your opponent.
Spacing fairs and dtilts is a great way to handle most match-ups. However, be aware that Kirby can actually shield-grab a dtilt if he's able to get close enough, and any of his short-hop approaches can make contact while going above your dtilt. It's a good spacing tool as always, so you should still try to use it, only not while your opponent may get into the air.

Aerial opponent
Remember shielding is safe on aerial opponents, since they cannot grab you, only air-dodge, perform aerials, or in Kirby's case, possibly stay in the air. Power-shielding the moment an attack can possibly hit you allows safe, easier, and less predictable punishment than regular shielding. If they didn't strike the moment you expected them to, you can keep moving anyway. This is very effective since you can punish an air-dodge into you with the use of a nair, one onto the ground next to you by grabbing them, or hold your position if they keep jumping. Shy Kirby players may mispace their bairs so they don't actually reach you even if you don't move, these errors in spacing are easily punished by a quick ftilt.

You can make use of the amazingly potent tool in Meta Knight's grounded Shuttle Loop for very easy hits on air-jump camping opponents. It's better to perform this if you have a platform above you, to make it very hard to punish, thanks to quick glide cancellings. Remember however, that it only does around 9% damage from the start, and it keeps getting worse. Possible punishment is not worth spamming it, as each of Kirby's most used moves do more damage than the Shuttle Loop, and it's as easy for him to punish as performing an air-dodge, one more jump to bair you out of your glide, or dair'ing into you from directly above. Shuttle Loop works best performed less often, SPECIALLY considering that you can KO with it from around 130% if you keep it fresh, and the aerial one can get weak enough not to allow any surprise aerial Shuttle Loop KO's.

To counter Kirby's potent air-jump camping game, which seems to be the best way to play Kirby, possibly in most, if not all of that character's match-ups, a Meta Knight player can keep up a good ground game, limited to mostly short-hops, baiting and taking advantage of each time the Kirby opponent touches the ground.

This is not the only option, however. One can also perform full hop fairs as an approach, and from there continue performing dairs and fairs, airjumped or not, to fight the opponent in an air-jump approach similar to his air-jump camping tactics.

Aerial Meta Knight.
Camping aerials is a good idea to avoid Kirby's options to land hits, aerial or otherwise. Kirby players will sometimes shield in the place they think you will land, to possibly punish a falling aerial by shield-grabbing you. This is easily baited by performing one extra jump right before touching the ground. If they miss a grab, you can then fall on them with a dair to safely regain your position.

Recovery.
Drill rush is your safest option. It out-prioritizes most of Kirby's moves, including all of the ones which pose a threat. I don't know about his hammer, but I haven't witnessed any Kirby player perform it on drill rush yet, and I don't think it's likely for it to land, due to its slow start-up and short range. Be careful to glide back on-stage. Your opponent's most reliable option against your glide is bair. If a Kirby opponent jumps offstage towards you, you should expect this. The opponent can also down-B, which is easy to see coming and calls for the cancelling of your glide. If your opponent tries to edge-guard in an unsafe way and is directly above you, you can perform a Shuttle Loop in hopes of it sending the opponent backwards and away from the stage, for a quick way to put the momentum of the match on your side.

Once you hang on the edge, be wary of attacking your opponent directly with an aerial as they can bair or shieldgrab. Be also wary of performing Mach Tornado in hopes of going back on-stage, as your opponent can bair the top of the move to land a safe hit on you, or perform a forward smash, which out-prioritizes the Mach Tornado. It is still a safe move, specially if performed from above the range of forward smash, or the opposing character altogether, so they can't punish it.

By the way, Mach Tornado isn't a great tool during the on-stage fight, due to Kirby's tendency to quickly pop out of it, his ability to bair you out of it (they can also shield it, as always), and the fact that the low damage output on a short MT isn't more damage than what Kirby can land on you. It's good to perform it if you feel confident that you'll trap your opponent in it during the entire move, or if you know it will hit, since it's relatively safe due to Kirby's unability to punish after popping up, since his falling speed isn't quick enough.

Edge-guarding.
You can charge a forward smash against Kirby's up-B, and release it when he's in the falling part of it. It's safe to perform this, and it works if the rising part of Kirby's up-B doesn't make contact with you. You also have the option to edge-hog the up-B, the opponent if forced to land on-stage (unless they don't, and they lose a stock), so you can easily ledge-hop a nair from there, or a fair in the unlikely case of nair not being able to reach the opponent.

Besides that, your opponent will over-B to head towards the stage without losing altitude, and air-dodge or perform aerials on your edge-guard attempts. You can bait air-dodges and land aerials afterwards, it's also good to try performing off-stage fairs and dairs, air-jumped or fast-falled. Fast-falling nairs from above may also work, which isn't as effective against Kirby as it is against other characters due to his multiple jumps, but it's still easy to land and an option you can consider. You can mix a Shuttle Loop in now and then, in hopes it connects, making recovery a chore for your opponent.

KO-ing.
I've found keeping dsmash fresh to KO at above 110%, not to be as effective in the Kirby match-up as in others. It seems that dsmash is harder to land on Kirby than on other characters, due to your opponent being mostly either in the air, or on the ground shielding. It's still good to keep it as an option, but if you like to perform dsmash even if it doesn't KO, go ahead (I like ftilt better, because of the better range, less punishability, and similar damage output though).

The absolute safest KO move in most matchups is a grounded Shuttle Loop. It's effective from around 130% on light/mid-weight characters, and Kirby is fortunately one of them. If it's fresh, you know what to do. If they DI and it doesn't KO, there's no problem. If they don't DI next time you hit, it's still a KO. A move keeps getting weaker each time you land it, but landing one move repeatedly will result in similar knock-back, due to the opponent having more damage each time.

Remember that trying to perform long edgeguards can allow you to land extra damage to make it easy to KO. If you can land a forward smash onto Kirby's falling animation during his up-B at high percentages, more power to you. Another option is nair at very high %, specially if fresh.

Kirby's Swallow.
...Is useless. Seriously, when Kirby performs Mach Tornado, only one third of his hits actually have hit-stun, the rest don't. So you can air-dodge, or actually hit him, even while in hit Mach Tornado. It even has a much smaller range, fair, ftilt, up-B...anything that has more range hits him out of it (since Meta Knight's moves don't clash and hit the opponent directly), and you can make him lose the ability easily, because a lot of Meta Knight's moves have multiple hits (not that you should worry about him losing the ability or not, since it's not all that useful).

About Kirby-ciding, it's easily avoidable if you maintain proper spacing throughout the match, and its range is not so good as to catch you during your aerials or specials (except Dimensional Cape, of course)."

-TKD


Fox


Difficulty: 65:35

"Ground Game:
Fox ground game isn't that good, his utilt is good, but he will mostly use it after aerials, especially dair. His smashes are ok, well usmash is ****, fsmash is kinda ok he will try to punish spot dodges and rolls with it, because the hitbox stays out for quite a while, dsmash is pretty fast and does decent % but it only kills at higher %.
He will hardly use any tilts beside utilt anyway (ftilt isn't that bad, but it's underused), Fox Jab is pretty good tho if he does jab cancel to *insert move here*, it also combos from dair
So bascally if we compare his ground game to mks ground game:
- MK has more range
- MK has more priority
- MK is faster
- MK is MK
So yeah, nuff said.

Air Game:
Fox will mostly rely on aerials, because all of them are rather good.
Nair is pretty fast, normally he would use this for edgeguarding, but it doesn't work quite well against meta knights superior recovery.
They will mostly use fair for approaching and dair to set up combos. Uair will kill MK really early if it hits, but the startup is pretty slow and it has lots of landing lag, so make sure you don't get hit.
Fox aerials are ok, but most of your aerials are faster and have more priority, so yeah actually it's pretty similar to the ground game.

Recovery:
Fox really has a hard time edgeguarding MK (well everyone has) so yeah can't say much about that.

Edgeguarding:
Firefox has way to much startup time, so hit him while he's charging it. If he is below the edge he has no option but to firefox again -> dair -> repeat = Fox is dead
Illusion is pretty fast and you will have a harder time punishing it than firefox, nair is probably the best option to punish it, you can predict where he will go and then shield it and dsmash oos (but remember that he can shorten his illusion).

If you read this you will probably think that MK utterly destroys Fox, but Fox still has some tools against MK.
Fox laser is good and he will use it often. Properties of the laser:
- If he spams it you have to approach, so you have a hard time playing defensive
- Every laser that hits you will refresh Fox moves
So what Fox is going to do most of the time in this matchup:
laser, laser, laser, some fairs, some dairs to utilt to stuff, some grabs, laser, laser, USMASH ****. There you go: Fox has one of the best usmashes in the game. Usmash will kill you at ridiculous and it's super fast and even if he spams it he can refresh it with his lasers. We all know that MK is pretty light and is very vulnerable to vertical kill moves.
Anyway: Fox is pretty light, too. so you won't have much trouble killing him."

-.Tero


Sonic


Difficulty: 65:35

"Basics are absolutely crucial to beating sonic.
Dont get gimmicky in anyway, sonic rips that garbage.
1. dont shuttle loop unless theres someform of mindgames behind it. Sonics train this match to be able to spring on reaction to shuttle loop. so if you shuttle loop in the air, theres a good chance that we will spring and you will actually get comboed into the inevitable down air that comes after 80% of sonics spring jumps.
2. use tornado sparingly. sonic is light enough that DI and SDI will get him high enough to where he can spring out of it, and the spring will damage MK.
3. dont spam down smash, if you use it more than once at a time, you are asking us to get jump over it and back air you in the face. (BTW, back air is our best move, watch out for it at all percents, back air does great damage and pretty much always sets up for follow ups no matter the staleness or the damage. the only time it doesnt set up for anything is when it kills, which for MK should be around teh 120-130 mark from the middle of final D fresh)
4. shuttle loop on the ground if shielded is punishable with a hyphen smash or a f air, this requires strict timing for the sonic, so it doesnt happen too often if you arent spamming it.

5. As far as I can tell all you really, really have to do to beat sonic, is know how to approach and how to defend appraches.
approach:
spaced f air fast fallen to down tilt, its ***** sonic since brawl came out, the only thing thats changed is that most MKs are out there trying to do cool stuff instead of spamming the bs that works.
Defending.
I played a really good MK this past sat. and I noticed that theres really no approach that we have that can really touch you if you train yourselves to FH down air on reaction to any sonic approaches.

how ever, sonics are very good at faking approaches and baiting moves from you. we have a way to cancel just about everything we do. so we can try to make you react a certain way and than punish you for it.

also for some reason, MK is very susceptable to spindash combos. he should take at least 20% from each one.
also, something MKs need to reallise, Sonics will try to f smash you for the kill, and we have 3-4 different mindgamey setups for it. its also disjointed and has more range than it seems. we will try to space you into f smashes and we will charge them to anticipate that whole spot dodging thing some of you like so much, and just know that a f smash charged for the duration of a spotdodge, that hits at the edge of final D, will kill around 90

so inconclusion
dont try to be fancy.
spam SHFF fairs into down tilts
FH down air all his approaches,
go for a down air gimp every once in a while,
and know that sonic will learn your tendancies and punish them if we can forced you to do them when we want you to."

-da K.I.D.


"Ground Game: Sonics tilts are kinda good, he has good range, but definitly not as much priority, actually i would suggest beeing more in the air than on the ground against sonic.

Air Game: Sonics aerials are decent, nothing compared to MKs tho. However you should pay attention to his bair, it's kinda fast and has good range. Uair can kill MK at pretty low %, be aware of their upB, they can up B -> uair for suprising kills. Be aware of Sonics hyphen smash when youre in the air, they gonna do it a lot.

Edgeguard: Sonic can't actually eg MK, period.

Specials: You should avoid spamming your specials, especially tornado, because Sonic can run away and then Bair or Fsmash (only if angled up iirc) you out of it. Ftilt goes through Sonic spinning thing specials on the ground afaik so you can just ftilt them when they rush at you (someone confirm this?)

General stuff: Sonic is weird, but MK definitly has a big advantage, just because he is MK (priority, range and stuff u know). Sonic has no projectile so he can't camp you, you can play offensive or defensive, just as you wish. You should stick to your aerials and avoid spamming specials and you'll be fine."

-.Tero


Special thanks to everyone who's contributed to this guide.

Ignore post Dood!

Ignore this post

Guys, it's all helpful information, nobody knows everything, and personally, the more threads there are like this, all the better for the MK community.

That is all.

Quez256 said:

Guys, it's all helpful information, nobody knows everything, and personally, the more threads there are like this, all the better for the MK community.

That is all.

Click to expand...

Thanks man, I appreciate your feedback.

I agree, good thread Affinity. I've needed some starts for snake.

More info the better I say.

affinity2412 said:

Thanks man, I appreciate your feedback.

Click to expand...

No prob, just like I said, it's all useful info to have. ^_^

Thanks guys, Ill get started on the MK mirror a little later.

Ignore this post dood!!

Terranrox said:

Oh and for the Snake update you could try to add Zephyr and I's suggestions against him from our thread
(Its a frequently asked question) we have a lot of material against him and we updated our thread so everything we know against Snake is on our first post...

But overall I must say about Snake is to try to avoid using MK against Snake because Snake is among the greatest counter pick against Mks....

One last thing I would like to add is to perhaps get more staff on this thread to voice different opinions and strategies

these are just recommendations so ummm.... yeah

Click to expand...

I'll add some of your advice.

In the tourney's I've played I haven't lost an MK ditto set in friendlies or tourney match. (Not saying I've never lost a match, just not the set) I've played quite a few so I can try and help a little with that matchup.

-Amazing spacing is a key in this matchup. Make sure to mix it up alot between tilts, grabs, and aerials.
-If you see a tornado, press the B button... Alot of MK's moves can knock away the tornado. Experiment with it.
-Tilt's can keep away an MK if he's pressuring you.
-I personally like to edgeguard MK's and theres a decent way to do it if they're not tornadoing. If gliding stay under it. Dont be afraid to go lower you have 6 jumps. Wait for a glide attack and you can pull off an uair. You also want to stay lower when they're upBing. If you can time it right and wait for an UpB you can hit them out of theres while coming around.
-Saving your dsmash in this matchup can help ALOT. Killing MK at lower percentages isn't hard when you properly save your kill moves.

I'll try to help out more later. I'm headed to a friend's for same games.
I'll try to help on other matchups as well if you want. I know the falco, wolf matchups pretty well.


This is a good thread you have going. Keep up the good work.

Dojo. said:

In the tourney's I've played I haven't lost an MK ditto set in friendlies or tourney match. (Not saying I've never lost a match, just not the set) I've played quite a few so I can try and help a little with that matchup.

-Amazing spacing is a key in this matchup. Make sure to mix it up alot between tilts, grabs, and aerials.
-If you see a tornado, press the B button... Alot of MK's moves can knock away the tornado. Experiment with it.
-Tilt's can keep away an MK if he's pressuring you.
-I personally like to edgeguard MK's and theres a decent way to do it if they're not tornadoing. If gliding stay under it. Dont be afraid to go lower you have 6 jumps. Wait for a glide attack and you can pull off an uair. You also want to stay lower when they're upBing. If you can time it right and wait for an UpB you can hit them out of theres while coming around.
-Saving your dsmash in this matchup can help ALOT. Killing MK at lower percentages isn't hard when you properly save your kill moves.

I'll try to help out more later. I'm headed to a friend's for same games.
I'll try to help on other matchups as well if you want. I know the falco, wolf matchups pretty well.


This is a good thread you have going. Keep up the good work.

Click to expand...

Thank a lot man. I went ahead and put your advice up there.

Lately, I've been looking around at these MK boards and it kills me a bit on the inside. Besides this thread and a few select others... it's pretty noobed up. Now it's mostly the bunch of bandwagoners that come up looking for easy wins and the rest being scrubs who cant beat him.

I figured my q/a thread would help clear it out a little and it hasn't helped much. So, I'm gonna help around with this thread as much as I possibly can. I'd like to consider myself a decently experienced player, and hopefully I can help out a bit here and then lay low for a while until the MK boards can hopefully clear down a bit.

So I'll get started on this soon.

Dojo. said:

Lately, I've been looking around at these MK boards and it kills me a bit on the inside. Besides this thread and a few select others... it's pretty noobed up. Now it's mostly the bunch of bandwagoners that come up looking for easy wins and the rest being scrubs who cant beat him.

I figured my q/a thread would help clear it out a little and it hasn't helped much. So, I'm gonna help around with this thread as much as I possibly can. I'd like to consider myself a decently experienced player, and hopefully I can help out a bit here and then lay low for a while until the MK boards can hopefully clear down a bit.

So I'll get started on this soon.

Click to expand...

...I know what you mean. The inactivity of the MK boards gives me the same feeling.

Anyway thanks, I'm def gonna need help with this thread.

I'm trying to post on the boards but there aren't many topics. Trying to keep it alive though like dojo said besides a select few topics it's the same thing over and over again. I don't care much for online because it's laggy to an anoiying degree. I would like to contribute to your Falco section later on after I do some sit down being he's my secondary.

ShaolinAce said:

I'm trying to post on the boards but there aren't many topics. Trying to keep it alive though like dojo said besides a select few topics it's the same thing over and over again. I don't care much for online because it's laggy to an anoiying degree. I would like to contribute to your Falco section later on after I do some sit down being he's my secondary.

Click to expand...

That would be great. Thank you

Dojo. said:

Lately, I've been looking around at these MK boards and it kills me a bit on the inside. Besides this thread and a few select others... it's pretty noobed up. Now it's mostly the bunch of bandwagoners that come up looking for easy wins and the rest being scrubs who cant beat him.

I figured my q/a thread would help clear it out a little and it hasn't helped much. So, I'm gonna help around with this thread as much as I possibly can. I'd like to consider myself a decently experienced player, and hopefully I can help out a bit here and then lay low for a while until the MK boards can hopefully clear down a bit.

So I'll get started on this soon.

Click to expand...

Thats kind of right, but I'm kind of surprised on how straight forward you are about this...

I can't believe how much "Mk's chaingrab" popped up in the past along with the infinite supply of "Help Against ______" threads....

Well which is why I started with Zephyr a matchup question/ help thread and then there is thread I'm happy to say the number of those threads are finally decreasing...

But there is still those threads other threads that keep popping up.... if only we had a huge shining letters at the top of our board saying please look at previous threads before posting a new one...

I propose we should get the all the original threads stickied...
But these threads must be checked and updated regularly because I have seen in the past two failed matchup threads due to lack of activity of the creator of the thread (no - offense to whomever started those)

Oh and another suggestion for this thread... How about after going around every character once perhaps going over them again but online specific since online and normal is of two different leagues
exp: Isn't Ike a lot better online over normal?

Eh I've been in a bit of a bad mood lately. >.>
So I'm sorry if anybody takes offense to anything I say but, meh it's the truth.
These threads do help to an extent but it's not gonna stop the noobs from doing they're thing. I'm sure it'll die down soon enough.

As for helping with this thread I'll try to get on it asap, I have work on the 4th of july from 5 to 1 in the morning... Pretty lame but it's whatever.
I'm not sure I'll be doing anything tomorrow, and I can't practice because my wii broke... so I'll probably be on it then.

on snakes recovery u can use the first of MK's nair to hit him out of itand you can hit his body so you dont take any damage from his cyfer.XD

Dojo. said:

Eh I've been in a bit of a bad mood lately. >.>
So I'm sorry if anybody takes offense to anything I say but, meh it's the truth.
These threads do help to an extent but it's not gonna stop the noobs from doing they're thing. I'm sure it'll die down soon enough.

As for helping with this thread I'll try to get on it asap, I have work on the 4th of july from 5 to 1 in the morning... Pretty lame but it's whatever.
I'm not sure I'll be doing anything tomorrow, and I can't practice because my wii broke... so I'll probably be on it then.

Click to expand...

Yeah.. lately the only people who come to the Mk boards and actually post and make insightful contribution is Dojo, Shaolin Ace, Affinity, me, Zephyr, meta master, and very few other people its rather a sad sight...

I think a lot of people come here but not many are active... we really should at least try something to get people to get active...

What happened to a match up against characters like Yoshi, Link, you know the lower tiers? Are they not worth it and just not popular enough to warrant having a matchup section the thread?

The threads still in the making man.

blu link said:

What happened to a match up against characters like Yoshi, Link, you know the lower tiers? Are they not worth it and just not popular enough to warrant having a matchup section the thread?

Click to expand...

From the OP:

affinity2412 said:

For now, I'll only be putting up match-ups of characters that have been doing well in tournaments or that give MK significant trouble.

Click to expand...

I'll get to the rest of the match-ups evetually.

yea match up threads are good, so you have an idea how to play against everyone :D
more! gogogo!

Hay, I have some info on R.O.B.

Like all the good R.O.B.s out there, He will be CAMPY. So you're forced to approach him. Lazers can break through the Nado NP. I've noticed if you're fast enough, You can Nado R.O.B. out of his lazer before it fires "I've been able to pull this off at about half of FD, while he was at the edge."

Don't just Spam nado at R.O.B.. If he spaces his N+Air right, he can hit the top of your nado, and send you flying... This gets very annoying...

I believe that N+air and D+air "You shouldn't even worry about this...." are his only ariels that break nado if you're giving your nado full priority by spammin B.

R.O.B.'s top can break your Nado "tho it's very hard for it to do unless fully charged. The R.O.B. has to be very accurate and actually hit were MK is".

A lil thing I love to do, Is take R.O.B.'s top from him, and just keep pounding him with Nado. It tends to get the player very irritated, and even if it dosn't, It still racks up alot of dammage, and adds that "OMG HE MIGHT THROW IT AT ME" effect.

While R.O.B. is on the ledge, Its safest to Nado out over the ledge for a quick second, and come back on far enough away so you can't be punished. Remember not to go to far back either, because he will just jump off the ledge and lazer you out of it.

You may also find it usefull to run off the ledge and D+Air him. Its unexpected, and can stage spike him if he's at high enough %.

While R.O.B. is shielding you have a few options:

-Nado at him, and be sure to space your nado well enough not to get hit from R.O.B. out of his shield. You must poke their shield atleast one time before nado can rip through it. A full shield can shield a full nado ^__^

-Short Hop F+Air him. Make sure you space this right "hit with the very tip of his sword"... If you don't, you will get punished, By either a shield grab, or an attack from his shield. If you space it right, and he goes for a shield grab, punish him. Pretty much any one of MK's attack can punish a missed grab, so you can choose which one you would like to do ;P

-Dash Grab. This is VERY risky, and I don't recommend this unless you know you're opponent won't Step Dodge. R.O.B. has the best step dodge in the the game, and if he step dodges this, you're open for a D+Smash, Grab, Or short hopped B+Air/N+Air.

While in the air with R.O.B. you have LOTS of options!

-Bait the N+air "R.O.B.'s best aerial IMO". It has great priority, Stays out for awhile, and if used right, leaves the R.O.B. unpunishable. BUT! If you bait it, the lag at the end leaves him open for a shuttle loop. I've been able to bait this many times on R.O.B.s and it seems to work pretty good.

-Up+Air the hell out of him! R.O.B. can't stop this. His D+air's wind up time is WAY to long to stop MK's up+air. You can Up+Air him about 4-5 times "starting from 0-10%" and finish it off with an F+Air. I usually play it safe and use 3 Up+Airs than and F+Air, B+air, or ^B depeding on which way he ends up when you're done.

-F+Airs work! lol yeah... F+Air him if your face to face , and make sure he isn't starting up N+Air..

-D+Air is best off the ledge. Yes it's great off the ledge with R.O.B.. If you're fast enough, You can D+Air him a few times before he can Up+air you. R.O.B. has a good Up+Air, and can rack up alot of %. So watch out for it.

-Bait the Air Dodge. This is very simple and basic, but I'm just stating it for people that don't know ;D. Just jump up at an Air dodging R.O.B., wait for the right time and punish him with a shuttle loop.

THINGS NOT TO DO!

-Don't glide in on R.O.B. if he has a top in his hands. A good R.O.B. can glide toss it and Up+Smash you. And even if he dosn't have a top, this is a bad approach because he can nail you with a lazer.

-Like I said earlier, Don't just spam nado on him. R.O.B. can punish you for this pretty easily if the R.O.B. is good.

-Don't wait for R.O.B. to approach you... That's just asking to lose. A good R.O.B. will never approach you unless he knows he will get a hit. So you have to be very aggresive, yet smart about it =P

-Don't shuttle loop an N+air untill the attack frames are gone. N+air will hit you of it.

-Don't D+Smash a R.O.B.'s shield. He can D+tilt you out of his shield and hit you atleast one time.

-Don't Dash attack much... Very rarley use this on R.O.B. because he can Short Hop N+Air you out of it.

I'll write up more about R.O.B. L8r

Also, From this day on, I'm gonna be very active, and contributive to the MK forum ^__^. I'll start writting up more match ups I know pretty well l8r.

Soon to come: Olimar, Wolf, Lucario, MK ditto, D3, Falco.

blu link said:

What happened to a match up against characters like Yoshi, Link, you know the lower tiers? Are they not worth it and just not popular enough to warrant having a matchup section the thread?

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Here's one for link.

Spam nado unless he has a Bomb.... Kill with D+Smash or Shuttle loop... There ya go ^__^

Bleh I got bored so I'm gonna do my write up about wolf...

MK Vs Wolf:

So I'm pretty sure you all know Wolf is a VERY heavy character... This makes wolf pretty hard to kill, So saving your KO moves "D+Smash, Shuttle Loop" is key in this match up.

Luckily for us MK users, Wolf can be gimped pretty easily, and we all know MK can gimp =P.

Wolf's recovery is the way he gets gimped. Due to it being pretty predictable, and easy to stop "once you get your spacing and timming right ^__^"

When fighting Wolf, It's not really smart to run in with a nado. A good Wolf will lazer you out of it, and continue to lazer you untill you find a new way to approach.

I find it pretty easy to grab Wolf, than D+Throw to dash attack or F+air.

Ohhh and baiting wolf to shoot a high lazer at you is good. You can just FF, than run up on him. If he shields, grab, if he step dodges, D+Smash at the right time. Pretty simple ;P

Wolf is pretty easy to keep in the air, so juggling is a great option for racking up %. Up+Air Chain to Shuttle Loop is great on him.

Most Wolfs I've played are campy. But don't be fooled by that. Wolf can still be very deadly approaching you aswell. His Boot Smash is crazy good, and seeing as Wolf can cancel his lag on F+air, it makes him pretty dangerous.

When Wolf goes off the ledge, GO AFTER HIM! You're freakin Meta Knight... Just F+air/D+air him, and at Mid-Higher% he won't make it back...

Please Nado him every time he jumps in to the air... He has no aerials that break Nado cept D+Air, and he has to be very accurate. So attack him from the side with the nado. Even if he fires a lazer, its very easy to dodge in the air.

Space your F+Airs when poking his shield, and F+tilt/D+Tilt if he tries to attack you out of it "F+Tilt if he jumps at you, D+Tilt if he runs. F+tilt will also work if he runs =O".

D+Throw is my favorite throw to use on Wolf because of his heavy weight, and how easy it is to comob him out of it.

I'll add more to my Wolf section as I learn more about this match up. But it seems that this is all you really need to know for now. Wolf can run up on you, and he can also camp. Play smart, and you'll win =P

MisterMoo said:

*Match-up Info*

Click to expand...

Thanks man. I'll put that in right now.

Someone should really sticky this. This already has a lot of good information on a few of MK's toughest match ups.

hmmmmm I guess I'll do my write up about Lucario now.

Lucario can be a very tricky match up for MK, unless you know what you're doing.

First off, About MT'ing lucario. MT'ing Lucario is pretty simple for the most part seeing as the only 3 plausible moves Lucario has that break MT are F+Smash, D+Air, and Fully Charged Aura Sphere "higher %"

Keeping Lucario in the air seems like the best way to deal with him for me.

People are kind of scared to do this because of Lucario's F+Air > F+Air > N+Air Combo. Don't worry about this... If you look at the %, this only does like 10-15%... And even than, If you DI away and F+Air, You will hit Lucario out of this.

Its pretty easy to deal with Lucario in the air, Unless he is above you. Do not attack him if he is above you. Nothing MK has can out prioritize Lucario D+Air.

Don't shield to much against Lucario. Its not smart. Lucario can D+Air > Jab > Jab > Grab/Jab. He also has a couple other options to attack your shield, so you should do this cautiously.

Dealing with Lucario over the edge is EASY!

-If Lucario tries to sweet spot, Edge hog.

-If He tries to wall cling, Ledge drop, and D+Air him for a stage spike.

-If he tries to go on to the stage, Jump up and attack him on the lag frames.

When on the ground be sure to remember,

- Lucario's F+smash can out prioritize any of your ground attacks.

- Lucario has a good dash grab, and can do some good stuff out of a grab. So watch out for that.

- MK's dash grab is very risky to use, but the pay off on Lucario is pretty good. The D+Throw to F+air combo works really good on Lucario, and can send him over the edge for an easy kill.

- Landing tilts on Lucario really pays off. If you finish an F+tilt combo, It sets him up for a fallow up in the air, and if you trip him with D+tilt, you can dash grab and punish from that.

Falco time.

I cant stress enough how important spacing is in this matchup. One grab from falco and you have 50 to 60%. Keep a fair distance with tilts and dont let him catch you with any lag.

Dont be afraid to Dsmash if a falco comes in close. Keep him away. You really dont want to get grabbed.

Keep a fair amount of pressure on him to avoid laser spammage. Perfect shielding and dodging the ones coming at you is about all you can do.

If you get him in the air. Keep him there. If your smart you can juggle him to rack up some serious damage. Falco's air game along with most of the cast can't hang with MK's. And in the air you dont have to worry about a chain grab.

A really good falco will catch you offguard with a laser boostsmash. The boostsmash is amazingly fast and can slide far so keep yourself on your toes. If you see it coming shield/spot dodge and punish.

You should NOT get gimped by his dair after a chain grab. If you do, remain calm and use your jumps and you can recover safely. Mk's tend to try and meteor cancel it and upB immediately. It wont work.

Gimping falco can be relatively difficult. His sideB comes out very fast, can spike you, and if used right leaves no relative lag behind it. Theres one trick.

You can whorenado your *** off. The tornado eats up everything falco can throw at it minus the lasers. If you can use it correctly you can get 0 lag on your nado's afterlag and continue it. It works really well on his sideB. Eats it up. Eats him up.

This can be very difficult for MK. Keep yourself spaced, apply pressure, and dont be afraid to ***** the nado. After all, you Play to Win.

Major thanks to everyone who has been providing info for this thread. Great stuff so far!

Oh a little tip about Falco, You can escape the chain throw at about 35% by pressing the jump button really fast. This is good if the Falco tries to go for another grab, you can F+Air him.

Also, Falco's reflector breaks the MT.

Got some starter information on Olimar based on repeated matches with a pretty good Olimar player.

Pikmin:
- What this match is all about. The number that Olimar has and the colors at his disposal will constantly force you to adapt, but will force the Olimar player to adapt as well.
- Whites will die from just about anything, even the Jab-combo. They're weak for everything except Pikmin Throw, and even then you can remove them pretty quickly.
- Yellows and Reds are about even in survivability. They are the chief damage dealers.
- Blues are the most annoying in my experience. They have the longest smash range and grab range, have fairly good knockback, and live almost as long as purples.
- Purples survive the longest and hit the hardest, but move the slowest and have the least range. Under most circumstances, you should be able to avoid them, but watch out for aerials using them.

In the Air:
- Meta Knight's sword has better priority than Pikmin in the air. It also has slightly more range from the sides.
- Olimar's aerials come out just as fast as MK's, so if Olimar attacks first, you'll feel it.
- Avoid attacking from above Olimar. While MK can beat the captain from most directions, a Pikmin Uair will almost always cancel Dair, and sometimes will go through. Nair can beat it, but usually the Pikmin will out-distance you.
- Olimar is good in the air, but MK is better. If you keep the pressure on, you should be able to rack up the damage

On the ground:
- Olimar's hit boxes are pretty big and last a long time. His range is superior in all directions, but you can get around with Fair or Nair under most circumstances. However...
- Be careful of Olimar's grab! It is just as fast as a normal grab, but the range is VERY deceptive. In particular be careful of blue Pikmin.
- Mach Tornado is your best friend! It goes through Pikmin Toss, Dsmash, and Fsmash, regardless of Pikmin color. As a bonus, it will usually kill any straggling Pikmin. However, it does NOT remove any Pikmin that are currently attached to you! They will continue to do damage until they are removed with the final hit of MT.

Getting the KO:
- Olimar has a tether recovery. GIMP THAT SUCKA!
- Olimar is very susceptible to Wall of Pain threats. Many times if he dodges, he may no longer be able to reach the edge.
- If Olimar is below the stage, you can risk attacking from above with Dair or Nair. Olimar (usually) cannot risk using Uair because it risks being out of tether range.
- You can still stage spike while Olimar is hanging from his Pikmin Chain.
- Try to avoid being directly between Olimar and the ledge. He can spike you back using the tether, especially if the lead Pikmin is a purple or blue. (Thanks to MisterMoo for pointing this one out!)

UPDATED! Some of the previous information was wrong, but I tested all of these, so they should be pretty accurate now.

*Be careful when going down for the D+air over the edge. Olimar can tether you and stage spike you for it ;P

Ah, see! One of those things I needed to double check on! Thanks MM!

np np, the rest of the stuff you wrote is solid advice ;P

Can this please get stickied? It's very helpful....

I don't know if this is posted yet, but shuttle loop CAN go through MT; i have a save of it and will upload if necessary

Just a note mentioning that I updated the Olimar information. Some of it was incorrect, so we might want to change that in the main post.