Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

As you may or may not already know, Matchups are very important in Brawl. And as you all know, the matchup chart is in dire need of input.

Therefore, it is up to we, the Lucas community, to ensure the accuracy of the matchup chart, and to give tips to future Lucas players, so that we may triumph in the future.


A few simple rules:


1. Make sure any facts you state are, in fact, facts.
2. Be polite. We need not fight amongst ourselves.
3. Please, only discuss the character we are currently discussing. No need to get off topic.

Currently rediscussing Ness

Also, if you have a request on what character to look into next, please PM me. Do not make a post about it.


Past Weeks:

1: Captain Falcon: 7-3. While Captain Falcon can pull out a few suprises, we can outrange, out power, and outspace him on every account. We can ruin his approach options with F-tilt, out Nair out prioritizes his aerials, and we can gimp his recovery with PK Thunder. If you lose, it's because of a vast skill difference.

2. Ness: 40-60. Ness completely cancels out our Projectile game with Psi Magent. Fortunately, we can do the same thing. Whioch means this fight is very much a close range fight. And Ness possess a faster close range game, and his aerial game exceeds ours. Fortunately, our ground game is much more powerful, and that is why trhe important thing here is to keep Ness grounded. And don't shield too much, because Ness has the tendency of grabbing people and killing them with a single Back Throw.

3. Metaknight: 35-65. Metaknight is the best character in the game. There's very little doubt about that. He has so many approach options that it's ridiculous. And all of his moves have no lag at all. And he is **** near ungimpable. However, you still have options available to you to combat Metaknight. The important thing is that you have projectiles, something Metaknight lacks.Also, your PK Fire will cancel out his Mach Tornado, so you should be using that liberally in this matchup. Your FSmash is also your best friend here, as it's your fastest KO move in your arsenal. Luckily, you can KO Metaknight at very early percentages, due to his lack of weight. However, if you don't Star KO him, he will make it back. Even so, PK Thunder is an excellent option, if only for racking up damage and removing diminishing returns from your other moves. In the air, your Nair is your best option, due to how fast it is, and how big the hitbox is. Grabbing out of shield is very difficult, due to the slow nature of Lucas' grab, but your jab combo out of shield is very reliable, and is actually just as fast as Metaknight's moves (Hit box starts on frame 2, making it the third fastest jab combo is the game) The secret to this matchup is to make sure you never give Metaknight the chance to start juggling you. Do that, and you'll live.


4. Pikachu: 50-50. We outrange, outprioritze, and out projectile Pikachu, and we can make one of his best KO moves (Thunder) useless. The reason this stays even is the fact that Pikachu is faster than us, not only in movement, but in how fast his attacks come out. Just space properly, and always be ready to use your PSI magnet.

5. Marth: 30-70. Yeah, this matchup sucks. Marth has an answer to everything you got. He outranges and outpowers you at close range, and he can easily get through your long range game. But even so, your long range game still makes an effective brink wall for Marth to geth through. You'll want to play a giant game of keep away, because Marth will pwn you up close. Also remember that your jab combo and your FTilt are your best close range options, and that your smash attacks should only be used as punishments for missed smash attacks. Once Marth gets off the stage, you should immediately go for the gimp via PK Thunder. I mean, marth's recovery sucks, and you should be abusing the hell out of it. Unfortuntely, marth aerial game is powerful enough to go for the gimp against you as well. Seriously, good luck.

6. King Dedede: 55-45. Hail to the king and his mighty chain grab, for it can, and will, rack up lots of damage. Fortunately, we can space with PK Fire. Also,our jab combo is faster than anything D3 can pull off. And, due to D3's wait an fast fall speed, D3 becomes one giant target while in the air. Also, while D3 is offstage, immediately start PK Thundering him. You're not gonna gimp him. You're gonna force him to use his UP B to recover, which can easily be punished by your Up Smash. Remember: Spacing is everything in this matchup.

7. Wario: 50-50. Wario, once he gets within range, can pwn you. Lucas, luckily, had enough tools in his arsenal to stop this from happening. After all, Wario's range sucks, and you have projectiles, aerials with good priority, and smash attacks with range on them. However, by no means does this make Wario an easy opponent. Once Wario starts hurting, he will keep it up. Also, avoid using PK Thunder to recover, as it makes you an easy target, due to Wario's amazing horizontal DI. Wario, however, is also a nice gimop, thanks to the fact that PK Thunder can knock him off his bike and into the abyss. And if Wario needs to use him up B to recover, we can pull out our DSmash to knock him away from the edge, since his UP B doesn't auto sweetspoit ledges. Just keep Wario out of range, and you're good.

8. Bowser: 55-45. Offensively speaking, Bowser and Lucas can royally screw eachother over. Lucas can juggle and gimp Bowser, and Bowser and grab release chain grab, or grab release to a strong attack. Thus, the main difference comes from how easily one can avoid the screwing, which Lucas can do easily. Lucas can keep Bowser far away easily with his projectile game, and he can keep Bowser is the air with constant Nairing. Stay away, stay aerial, and stay on the move.


9. Ike: 60-40. Ike has alot of range, alot of power, and he's pretty heavy. But his recover and approach options stink, and Lucas is very capable of abusing both of those. The most important tool in this matchup are properly spaced PK Fires. Also, the moment Ike misses with an attack is when you should immediately rush in for a counterattack, as Ike has quite a bit of lag after alot of his attacks. Once you get Ike offstage, use your projectile of choice (Freeze and Fire for Side B recovery, Thunder for Up B recovery) to gimp him (Which is incredibly easy). Basically, just be defensive, taking every advantage you got. Be warned that a missed Up Smash will earn you a FSmash to the face, which in perfectly capable of KOing you at around the 50% mark.

10: Jigglypuff: 65-35. Jigglypuff's ground game sucks. We can easily overpower and damage her on the ground. In the air, she may have faster aerials, but we have priority and strength and slightly more range. We can also force approaches with our projectile game. And she's incredibly light, allowing easy KOs. The only reason this isn't a hue disadvantage is because of the WOP. The moment you end up off the stage, Jigglypuff has a slight advantage. Your PK Thunder is troo slow to recover with. Stick with Zap Jumping and tether recovery and you should be fine.

11: Ganondorf: 60-40. This summary courtesy of Swoops:

Swoops said:

Lucas is a real annoyance to Ganon. PK Fire is the main cause of this. Projectiles are the bane of Ganondorf and PK Fire is a pretty good one. Lucas is going to need to rely on this a lot through the match to frustrate the Ganon enough into approaching, which is definitely not his strong suit. But the match can't be won alone on PK Fires.

Ganon actually happens to out range Lucas in pretty much every area. Ganon does have a little bit laggier attacks but I don't think Lucas is one known for punishing laggier attacks but rather approaches. Two of his good KO attacks are pretty much built for punishing silly approaches (U-Smash and F-Smash, d-smash as well probably but I don't know Lucas that well.) F-Smash is quick though but if it's shielded Ganon can actually punish it pretty hard, as well as a misplaced u-smash. Ganon punishes Lucas' mistakes well and out ranges him with powerful KO moves like f-air, f-tilt, f-smash, and DA. However, Lucas does really well in an important part of this match up. He can effectively shut down Ganon's thunderstorm game. Like I said, Lucas punishes approaches hard, and U-Smash and U-Tilt kill stomp. Frankly, it's really f*cking annoying.

Edgeguarding is really a 50-50 here. Ganon has a good edgeguarding game, yet has horrible recovery. If you're Lucas, you better be on top of your game with recovery. You miss a sweetspot, or start PK Thunder too close to the stage, and that could easily be your stock. Edgeguarding Ganon...I don't have much advice, his recovery sucks, that's all there is to it lol.

All in all, it seems like the match for Lucas is stopping Ganondorf from working any of his game, but its hard for Lucas to get anything going against the Dorf. PK Fire, U-Tilt, U-Smash, F-Smash, and F-Tilt are most of the key moves for shutting down Ganon. But that's the thing, once you shut him down...there's no where to go from there. You have to get your kills from shutting him down too. Lucas is frustrating. But Ganon has reach, power, priority, and some nasty punishing against a lot of your moves, so be careful.

Oh, sh*t almost forgot N-Air...yea N-Air annoys Ganon like none other.

60-40 Lucas.
(I will love the day when I can actually type 60-40 in Ganon's favor and not feel like I should change it because everybody will look at me weird.)

Click to expand...

12. Mr. Game & Watch: 20-80. Mr. Game & Watch is the best reason for a Lucas mainer to have a secondary. I mean, even with marth you can just counterpick Norfair or Brinstar and be able to take advantage of the geography, but you can't do that with GW. He completely shuts down your projectile game, he outdoes your aerial game, and he beats out your ground game. And he can DThrow to DSmash you with no chance of you escaping. And his recovery is **** near ungimpable (Seriously, I've gimped more Meraknights that I have Mr. Game & Watches) Seriously, good friggin luck.

13. Snake: 40-60. Your AAA combo is faster that every close range attacks he has, and your Nair make life incredibly hard for Snake.. These are the cardinal rules for this matchup, because your only hope of winning is to get up close. His camping game is very powerful. His grenades will quickly put you to KO percentage. Luckily, though, your PK Fire will explode any grenades Snake happens to be holding, so SH PK Fires actually make a good approach. Once you get in, start Nairing and Jabbing to build up damage. Beware, though, because Snake's tilts are powerful as hell. Once you get Snake offstage, you have two options. You can hit him with Pl THunder (Which is good) or Bair spike him (Which is the best option). Also, it is very possible to Destroy a Snake that recovers high by hitting off the top of thre stage with PK Thunder. Remember: The moment you stop attacking is the moment you lose.

14. Wolf: 40-60. Wolf has the edge on the ground, no question. He shines away your projectiles, and his blaster outranges your PK Fire and is just fast enough to be a nuisance. And the moment you do a move that's even remotely laggy will lead to a FSmash in the face. In the air, Wolf once again can keep you away with his superior Bair. However, once you get past all of that, what do you? A fighter ehavy and fastfally enough to get comboed alot, which brings the cardinal rule of this matchup. You have to stay offensive, and you have to make it fast. I call this a Blitzkrieg matchup.

15. Luigi: 60-40. The Key here is spacing. Luigi has some impressive power, some very nice priority, and one of the strongest moves in the game in his arsenal, but fact is is that a good Lucas can keep Luigi away. I mean, once Luigi gets in, he can keep it up, but a Nair can mess that up. Also, Luigi's Recovery, while good, is very vulnerable to PK Thunder, allwing a rather easy gimp.

16: Samus: 55-45. Samus, at long range, will outcamp and outspam you. At midrange, Samus will Zair you to death. Thus our route of attack is clear: Point Blank Range. Your Jab Combo and the Ftilt will be your main means of racking up damage, due to the speed in which they come out. Your Dair and Nair are your aerials of choice, because Samus is tall enough and heavy enough to be comboed by them. Do not attempt to spike Samus when she is recovering. PK Thunder is your best option. Never let Samus have a moment of peace.

17. Ice Climbers: 50-50. There are three basic rules to fighting the Ice Climbers: Divide, Kill, Conquer. You must split up the Ice Climbers (Your Nair is perfect for this) than you must kill Nana (Due to lousy AI, this should be easy) and than you must conquer. But remember, you get grabbed under the right conditions (and a good IC player will make sure the conditions are right) and you'll a stock. They will force approached by using their Ice Blocks. Fortunately, your FSmash can reflect these guys back, and they're slow enough that the timing is easy. If you are on the attack, they will shield grab, so always retreat your aerials. They will use the Blizzard to set up grabs, but your PSI magnet will absorb it. Remember: Everything the Ice Climbers can do has a solution. But alwaqys remember that everything you do has a solution as well.

18. Fox: 60-40. DEFENSE!!!! *ch-ch-ch* DEFENSE!!!! *ch-ch-ch* Serously though, this is a machup where defense will be your route to victory. Fox will be forced to approach, due to your PSI Magnet. And the Foxes approach options are almost pretty bad. Combine that with the fact that we can outprioritize most of Foxes stuff, and we can win. The only real concern is that Fox can gimp us if we have to use PK Thunder with his reflector, so be sure to use that Zap Jump and Wavebounce everybody.

19. Toon Link: 40-60. This guy out Lucases Lucas. He manages to have a **** good projectile game that is completely unmagentable, and he also has a good aerials game. And he has a sword, which means priority on the ground and some range. Thankfully though, it's short sword, meaning his defensive game isn't on the same level as other sword users. You have to get close, and you have to kill him before he kills you. Oh, and due to the nature of TL's recovery, PK Thunder isn't suggested. Good luck getting the spike. You'll need it.

20. Donky Kong: 30-70 (easier than what we thought). DK is a powerhouse. He can kill you at uncomfortably low percents, he has really good range on all of his attack, he doesn't get KOed until uncomfortable high percents, his recovery is alot harder to gimp than it looks like it would be, and he has an unescapable Cargo grab release to DSmash. You have to be on the offensive, because at long range, DK can just avoid your projectiles, and at mid range, DK can FTilt you to heck. No, CQC style combat is needed here, and your jab combo and Nair are your moves of choice, for their speed and their damage building qualities. I would honestly attempt to keep your kill moves fresh, due to DKs immense weight. As for Gimping, PK Thunder doesn't work, since DK's horizontal recovery is so powerul, and Bairing him is diffcult do to range issues. Surprisingly though, PK Freeze is suggested, due to the straight forward nature of DK recovery. All in all, I'd rather fight Marth.

21. Pit: 45-55. Summary up soon.

22. Lucario: 40-60. Summary up soon.

23. Sonic: 55-45. Summary up soon.

24. Peach: 40-60. Summary up soon.

25. Olimar: ???

26. 45-55 50-50 55-45 Overall 50-50

27. Falco: 50-50. Summary up soon.

28. Diddy: 45-55. Summary up soon.

29. Yoshi. 40-60. Summary up soon.

30. ROB: 40-60

31. Link: 60-40

32. Kirby: 45-55

33. Zero Suit Samus: 55-45

34. Zelda: 50-50

:shiek:35. Sheik: 40-60

36. Mario 50-50




70-30 CaptainFalcon
65-35 Jigglypuff
60-40 Ganondorf
60-40 Luigi
60-40 Fox
60-40 Bowser
60-40 Ike
60-40 Link
55-45 Sonic
55-45 Samus
55-45 King Dedede
55-45 Charizard
55-45 Zero Suit Samus
50-50 Zelda
50-50 Wario
50-50 Ice Climbers
50-50 Pokemon Trainer (In Total)
50-50 Ivysaur
50-50 Pikachu
50-50 Falco
50-50 Mario
45-55 Kirby
45-55 Diddy Kong
45-55 Squirtle
45-55 Pit
40-60 Yoshi
40-60 ROB
40-60 Peach
40-60 Lucario
40-60 Toon Link
40-60 Snake
40-60 Wolf
40-60 Sheik
40-60 Ness
35-65 Metaknight
30-70 Marth
25-75 Donkey Kong
20-80 Mr. Game & Watch
??? Olimar

Pshh 7-3 Lucas
Lucas can prevent Falcon by approaching with a lot of his moves and ftilt>most everything he has cuz of its high priority and Falcons lack of it. I dont think there's much to discuss here, this matchup is cake.

Levitas said:

it's better than 65-35 for lucas, but not by that much.

Lucas's Nair beats all of falcon's recovery options except the DJ uair, but then again, just wait him to have to use a special move to recover, and he's done.

Click to expand...

Earthbound360 said:

Pshh 7-3 Lucas
Lucas can prevent Falcon by approaching with a lot of his moves and ftilt>most everything he has cuz of its high priority and Falcons lack of it. I dont think there's much to discuss here, this matchup is cake.

Click to expand...

Ok, as much as I agree with both of you, can we at least pretend to take this seriously?

I mean, what is the basic "To do" list against a Falcon?

1. Cut off C. Falcon's approaches with priority moves (ftilt, fair do this fine, just watch for a dodge and have a plan in case they do so)
2. rack up damage once they take a defensive stance with Dair, nair
3. If they go off the edge, take care of business.

Watch for ledgehopped/DJ Uairs, as they do have more priority than anything lucas has from that position. Also avoid getting up b'd under the stage by the captain. It kills things by either stagespiking or trapping you under the stage.

Someone go ask how they feel on the captain boards about the matchup. They would know more about his tricks than bowyer/scotu's sandbagging falcons can tell me.

This is a stupidly easy matchup. Space your PK Fires, jabs and ftilts. Use lots of SH Nairs. Try to stay low to the ground to avoid combos if possible. Easy edgeguard. If you're losing this match it's because the Falcon player is waaaay better than you.

Captain falcon shouldn't be a problem from what we know of him, but we really should ask the people that are maining him, and get their input before we report to the matchup chart.

Falcon is Lucas' easiest matchup by far, it's more like 9-1. Neutral air beats every single one of his attack except for his forward smash, falcon kick, and aerial side-B, so you can spam it relentlessly, particularly as an approach, and his B moves space easily into your smashes and tilts. Downthrow combos great and your jab game is fierce in close.

Also d-air is pretty good.

That matchup chart is a joke, I gave up on it long ago, so I wouldnt try to argue there. So anyways, as you can probably tell, the responses are all really short cuz its an obviously easy match.

Aerials outprioritize him, PKF prevents approach, and PKT gims recoverybvery well (especially with ledgewhipping).

Watch for the pivot aerial Falcon Punch; it gives Falcon a lot of sudden horizontal speed.

jabs and ftilts. Use lots of SH Nairs, dair, nair.
Can someone explain these terms to me?

AAA combos and forward A moves (not smash). Use lots of short hopped neutral aerials, down aerials, and neutral aerials (again? lol).

Ok, thats enough for Captain Falcon.


Now I believe we should go with a Matchup that might actually take a week to discuss.


Ness.

Sigh. Here we go again.

I play both. Whoever is better for you depends on your play style. Lucas is a bit more newbie friendly.

Lucas has an amazing recovery. He can recover from everywhere. You have to kill him by knocking him past a death zone.

Ness has a horrible recovery that makes it hard to keep him alive. His fair, uair, and nair cover his double jump well. If he needs to use his PKT2, he's screwed. You can jump down, absorb or get hit by his thunder, then he's gimped.

Ness has better air attacks, but I think Lucas has a slight advantage here since he can recover... but Ness's throw will murder Lucas. This one comes down to skill (assuming Lucas doesn't pummel spam).

Lol why do I have a feeling I wont like this discussion?

No good Ness will let you gimp him. They will strategicallly use their PSIM and aerials to prevent eaten thunder. So I wouldnt rely on that.

Careful with PKF approaches as Ness can easily absorb them, then cancel his magnet to attack or escape punishment.

He outdoes you in the air generally, so stick it close to the ground. Watch out for his high priority fair and super killing bair and uair. Your ftilt and jab cangenerally beat out most of what he can dish out on the ground.

PKF should be better used on Ness in the air since he cannot cance the magnet and it goes through his fair.

Careful with Ness on recovery, he has a very good method of gimping you. Ness can send out PKT when you have to resort to PKT yourself, then make his thunder collide with your own. His PKT is faster, so it could be easy for him, but realize that you have the same gimping ability. You can even put PKT in the path of his PKT2 to shorten the distance he travels.

It... hasn't been a week...

I think Ness has the advantage though.

I main Lucas and my doubles partner mains Ness. We had a couple of matches last night. We swapped characters halfway through and played completely different from each other. Ness overall won more games, but the matches were close. I like Ness's d-throw to u-air.

Is there anything else that needs to be said? Like how to fight Ness?

Lots of jabs/f-tilts.
Stick is great for kills & reflecting pkf.

Watch for Ness's b-air; it murders.
Don't get too shield happy. His throws are death.

Ness tries to hit you up into the air. If you make note of this and avoid obvious setups, you'll at least be a step in the right direction. Dash-grabs to uthrows and dash attacks/dash usmashes are suspect and can be avoided in their own ways.

Ness has a limited safe range in the air where he can move towards you with an aerial and away to avoid the response. If you memorize the safe range and move just far enough out of it, you should get a few free tilts in as punishment for the aerial that you shielded.

PKT mindgames are eaten by PsiM.

Ness still wins against lucas.

Take every gimp opportunity you can get. FH Dair is better than SH Nair for approaches because he will ALWAYS outprioritize you. PKF spam doesn't work too well because of his psi magnet. DON'T GET GRABBED.

PKF is still viable (for both), just don't spam it. If they use a magnet at a bad time, they'll lag cancelling it.

Ness can get really anoying to fight. Avoid his PKF and all costs. he can hit you from anywhere with it and then come up and grab which can lead to a combo of about 20-30%.

If you keep you magnet ready, you can absorb his specials quickly. If you use your magnet wisely Ness will be forces to be more carefull with his specials.

Ness' bairs are strong and have good priority, buit can be avoided if you are carefull. If you're in the air, try to get down as fast as possible, and Ness' air game is way better than Lucas'. Oh and trying to ledge guard with PKT1 is a bad idea, as it can be absorbed.

Ness is still a hard matchup, so it's best to be carefull and land 15% here, 10% there, untill he has high % were you can KO him with the stick.

Ness's air game >>> Lucas air game (comparing them)
Lucas ground game > Ness's ground game (comparing them)

Ness 6/4 probably his PK Thunder is faster, his PKT2 beats ours, and he just combo's a little better. It isn't a huge advantage but you have to give it to him.

Yes, the generonsensus is that Ness has the advantage, and it's been a week.


I think it's time we start discussing the major threats in the tourney scene.


Week #3: Metaknight.

For MetaKnight - pick DDD. Its the best chance youve got, with Lucas id say its 20-80 for MK.

Well, it is a bad matchup, but I wouldnt say its THAT bad. MK has no projectile and is fairly asy to keep at bay with PKF.

I was maily dealing with MK's grabs and ungimpable recovery. Lucas and Ness are the 2 best characters to grab in the game, and if Lucas can't gimp someones recovery- one of his strong points has been nullified. Also, Meta's cloak lets him avoid PKF, although Im not sure how practical it may be. Maybe youre right, 20-80 may be a bit high, but the advantage definitely belongs to MK.

pk fire can stop his tornado
dsmash is a good way to edge guard, if MK is trying to grab de edge with only jumps

Yeah, we all agree it's advantage Metaknight, but how much?


And how can we deal with him?


Also, Week 4 hint added.

We need more data.


The more data, the better prepared we'll be.

FOR METAKNIGHT:
Mentioned in the general matchup discussion is Metaknight's Up-B which he loves to use to ko/get damage. Ftilt has good range and dtilt can move Metaknight pretty quickly onstage.

I used to main him for a little while Metaknight is great for approaching. His fair, bair, and dair are great approaches along with his grab and tornado. Watch out for the surprise dash attack because it is quick and has a pretty large range. Dthrow to running upsmash is a "combo" that can be airdodged so watch out.

Dsmash is a killer and you want to avoid this when you are even at around 80% because Metaknight has a great off-stage game because of multiple jumps and high priority. Nair kills good offstage at around 110% on lucas. Metaknight can just lead you far offstage with dairs and fairs. (Uair leads into more up airs)

For Lucas:
Althought Metaknight is fast but its not all over for lucas, well spaced/timed fairs and nairs are good approaches. And sometimes using dair is good but leaves you very vulnerable for punishment if missed.

Metaknight is very light tho so he is easy to kill off stage (but if not killed immediately he WILL make it back on stage)

Jab out of sheild is a quick back off method when the metaknight is in your face. along with utilt and ftilt.

PKF needs to be used effectively against thunder and fair approaches

You won't want to fight offstage so PKT is recommended. When Metaknight is in his Up-B glide is a great position for you because you can land and upsmash if you time it right. you can also sneak behind Metabutt if he is high enough and you want to land a Fsmash.

Well, it's been a week, and the discussion is dead.

Time for the next fighter: Pikachu.

Magnet his bolts and thunders. Learn how to escape his d-smash with SDI.

be prepared for the pika to ground his fairs into other attacks, it's got very little lag.

QAC is dangerous, but limited in that there are a finite number of places the Pika can go. Figure out how the pika is thinking to figure out where he'll end up.

Keep him at a distance with PKF and have your magnet ready. If you get too close, pika will dsmash you.

Approach on your terms, don't try to counter his approaches.

Metaknight Summary added (Which is longer than both Falcon's and Ness' summaries combined) and Week 5 hint added.

Hey, would anyone mind if I just went to week #5? I mean, the Pikachu board essentially did the work for us.

I know it hasn't been a week, but next week's discussion might take more time.


Now starting week 5: Marth

Don't get grabbed. <_<

^^^Death grab is overated. It's not like OMG I GOT GRABBED NOW I JUST LOST A LIFE like against ICs.

Stages with platforms are good since it makes it way easier to escape. Like MK, marth has no projectiles. so it's best to keep him at a distance with pkf and ftilt when needed.