Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Noraa]

Just dont get grabbed, easy.
Even if you do get grabbed its really not that bad.

 

[pianodude700]

spam PKF to keep him away
keep in mind that your normally great f-tilt is far outranged, so i wouldn't rely on it much.
if he gets close or you think he's rushing, spam your fastest moves possible.
jab combos out of shield, SH nair, etc.

since marth is easy to gimp, edgeguard aggresively
PK thunder could work well
but i know the marth i play just cancels it out with an u-air and still recovers.
i would go for the bair spike

however, I still feel marth has the advantage because of his ridiculous priority/range advantages
not to mention the grab.

i'd say somewhere between 60-40 marth and 70-30 marth

 

[ParanoidDrone]

^^^Death grab is overated. It's not like OMG I GOT GRABBED NOW I JUST LOST A LIFE like against ICs.

Good point. I just wanted to be the first person to say it.

Speaking seriously for a change, Marth irritates me because he outranges Lucas's kill moves, so it's hard to find an opening to land an fsmash or something. And trying to avoid getting grabbed at all costs is rather stressful at times. For me, anyway.

 

[Noraa]

^^ down smash after he goes for his second fair. Bam ez.

 

[Obsidianlynx]

while platforms may allow escape they are also extremely exposed against a good marth. just think about battlefield.

 

[Blackbelt]

Pikachu summary added.


MOre discussion of Marth would be most appreciated.

 

[prOAPC]

PKT is your best weapon for gimping Marth's recovery, it maybe won't kill a smart Marth, but it can bother them, until the point the use their upB wrong, don't sweetspot the edge and is where you use your smashes
i play with a lot of Marths, and what they have in common is that they abuse their smashes. Spotdodge his dsmash and fsmash, and punish preferably with a dsmash (they can spotdodge immediately after those smashes) or a grab if you are getting predictable with dsmash
learn to DI away from the dancing blades, is not that hard. If you are really good with timing (i do, thanks to JUS) and the Marth is a little slow with the dancing blades, roll behind him and punish
PK Freeze when they are using their neutral B to recover
PK Fire and ftilt for spacing
mindgame their counter. For example, charge an up smash when they are off stage, they don't have their second jump, and are too low for a airdodge, so they'll use their downB (Marth thinks: yeah! i'll counter a really powerful attack! <- in japanese), wait for the counter to finish, release, laugh


I WANT TO ADD SOMETHING FOR PIKACHU
learn to use Psi Magnet as an attack. It could be a wavebouncing psi magnet or a running psi manget (replacing the dash attack), just make sure to use it really often. That way, the Pikachu will think it twice when to use their attacks

 

[Blackbelt]

PKT is your best weapon for gimping Marth's recovery, it maybe won't kill a smart Marth, but it can bother them, until the point the use their upB wrong, don't sweetspot the edge and is where you use your smashes
i play with a lot of Marths, and what they have in common is that they abuse their smashes. Spotdodge his dsmash and fsmash, and punish preferably with a dsmash (they can spotdodge immediately after those smashes) or a grab if you are getting predictable with dsmash
learn to DI away from the dancing blades, is not that hard. If you are really good with timing (i do, thanks to JUS) and the Marth is a little slow with the dancing blades, roll behind him and punish
PK Freeze when they are using their neutral B to recover
PK Fire and ftilt for spacing
mindgame their counter. For example, charge an up smash when they are off stage, they don't have their second jump, and are too low for a airdodge, so they'll use their downB (Marth thinks: yeah! i'll counter a really powerful attack! <- in japanese), wait for the counter to finish, release, laugh

What number ranking would you give this matchup BTW? You seem knowledgable.

 

[prOAPC]

i would say 55-45
Lucas has better KO moves, but Marth with the chain grab and the tip can kill him really fast
remember that lucas is too sexy for marth

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Is that in Marth or Lucas's favor?

 

[prOAPC]

lucas
10char

 

[Levitas]

I don't know if I can agree with that, APC, as Marth has better priority on all his aerials, has a better WoP type game, has a 20% true combo that starts hitting you on frame 4, and has KOs. That's quite a bit going for him, and Lucas's ftilt isn't even faster than marth's side b, which happens to also have more range.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Blackbelt, you asked and now you shall receive.

Marth vs Lucas

Marth's favor. Let's just get that out of the way. As of right now I'm leaning towards a 70/30 ratio. At best I'm thinking 65/35. Marth has more range with good speed on his tilts and is far more mobile. Marth outranges all of Lucas's kill moves as well. He has better KO moves and better ways to set-up for them vs Lucas since he grab release to smash after Lucas gets out.

Lucas has a camping game thanks to PK Fire, better recovery, and slightly better edgeguarding overall. He is also a little bit heavier.

But in every other category Marth wins out. there is simply no way this can be Lucas' advantage.

Also DB doesn't do 20% unless you end in the down stabs which can be DIed out. Usually it will do around 15%.

 

[Exia 00]

Blackbelt, you asked and now you shall receive.

Marth vs Lucas

Marth's favor. Let's just get that out of the way. As of right now I'm leaning towards a 70/30 ratio. At best I'm thinking 65/35. Marth has more range with good speed on his tilts and is far more mobile. Marth outranges all of Lucas's kill moves as well. He has better KO moves and better ways to set-up for them vs Lucas since he grab release to smash after Lucas gets out.

Lucas has a camping game thanks to PK Fire, better recovery, and slightly better edgeguarding overall. He is also a little bit heavier.

But in every other category Marth wins out. there is simply no way this can be Lucas' advantage.

Also DB doesn't do 20% unless you end in the down stabs which can be DIed out. Usually it will do around 15%.

It's the unfortunate truth T.T , I need to know how to beat marth without picking snake xD

 

[Levitas]

is picking snake really a problem?

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^This.

10snakes

 

[pianodude700]

unfortunately APC, they're right.
the priority and range are a bit harder to deal with than the PK fire.
the best thing you can hope to do with lucas to get marth off is jab combo out of shield.
a lot
and even then you then run the risk of getting grabbed (ouch).
trying to approach with nair (which is a great option against MOST characters)
is going to win you a free fair to the face.
the only way to win this match is epic projectile spam, jab combos, and waiting for the exact moment to punish a mistake with the f-smash.

much easier said than done.
70-30 marth

 

[Levitas]

Just to clarify, I happen to think it's more like a 6:4 for marth, as does the marth that plays me most frequently.

Yes, that's even with the grabrelease smashes, because winning a KO while lucas is at a high percent off a grab doesn't make Ness's matchup that broken either.

 

[pianodude700]

Just to clarify, I happen to think it's more like a 6:4 for marth, as does the marth that plays me most frequently.

Yes, that's even with the grabrelease smashes, because winning a KO while lucas is at a high percent off a grab doesn't make Ness's matchup that broken either.

I could agree with that
But I don't think it's the grabrelease that makes the match difficult
I don't think it's that at all
Rather the simple fact that marth easily wins at point blank
But any Lucas that stays point blank is a fool anyway
So I guess it's avoidable

So I think I'm wrong about 70-30 Marth
But....wow
Hard to come up with a number
I'm about even with the marth I play and he sucks
So I dunno
lol

 

[PKNintendo]

Blackbelt, you asked and now you shall receive.

Marth vs Lucas

Marth's favor. Let's just get that out of the way. As of right now I'm leaning towards a 70/30 ratio. At best I'm thinking 65/35. Marth has more range with good speed on his tilts and is far more mobile. Marth outranges all of Lucas's kill moves as well. He has better KO moves and better ways to set-up for them vs Lucas since he grab release to smash after Lucas gets out.

Lucas has a camping game thanks to PK Fire, better recovery, and slightly better edgeguarding overall. He is also a little bit heavier.

But in every other category Marth wins out. there is simply no way this can be Lucas' advantage.

Also DB doesn't do 20% unless you end in the down stabs which can be DIed out. Usually it will do around 15%.

DB, don't you mean DG? (deathgrab) Are you serious? Only 15%? I thought it was going to do 60%. What about Ness? Whats the matchup on that. (does DG do 60%+?)

Lucas can't get grabbed release Fsmash. Can he? (It doesn't work using Wario, and I believe his Fsmash is faster.)

 

[Ukiyasan]

DB, don't you mean DG? (deathgrab) Are you serious? Only 15%? I thought it was going to do 60%. What about Ness? Whats the matchup on that. (does DG do 60%+?)

Lucas can't get grabbed release Fsmash. Can he? (It doesn't work using Wario, and I believe his Fsmash is faster.)

Baka, he used DB because he meant Dancing Blade. All of us seem to be excluding the release grab because most respectible players won't use it unless necessary.

 

[Levitas]

Why? It's pretty important to the matchup.

 

[Ukiyasan]

Why? It's pretty important to the matchup.

Agreed, it is... let me put it this way. I have played some respectable Marth players with my Lucas. In those matches, using PKFire to space and taking advantage of openings can get this matchup somewhere around 60-40 for Marth. Once you add in the gay release grab, it REALISTICALLY becomes about 80-20 Marth. When you can take almost half a stock from Lucas using 1 simple move, it makes it much harder on them. They have to back off more and pick their moves wisely, one mistake = rest of stock lost.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth won't get much off of it since Lucas goes back pretty far.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play someone I go all out unless I'm just practicing.

I would abuse anything in the match including the death grab, but vs Lucas it's just better as a set-up for other attacks. I don't really CG Lucas with it.

Vs. Ness however....

DB = Dancing Blade.

Also there is simply no way it can be 60/40 which is only slight advantage.

Marth has too much going for him for it to be just slight advantage.

 

[PKNintendo]

Agreed, it is... let me put it this way. I have played some respectable Marth players with my Lucas. In those matches, using PKFire to space and taking advantage of openings can get this matchup somewhere around 60-40 for Marth. Once you add in the gay release grab, it REALISTICALLY becomes about 80-20 Marth. When you can take almost half a stock from Lucas using 1 simple move, it makes it much harder on them. They have to back off more and pick their moves wisely, one mistake = rest of stock lost.

Thats pretty profound. Is it weird that Marth already has the advantage on Ness/Lucas, but the CG pretty much seals the deal?

And EL. Whats the point. Grabbing a Ness once means it's over. A boring match IMO, and unless it's a tourney, pretty much useless. Your taking a 75-25 matchup, and turning into 90-10.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When two people pick up that controller it's as if two warriors meet on a battle ground.

For me doing anything less then trying to crush my opponent...is unworthy and disrespectful to my opponent.

I would only hold back if my opponent asked me too in order to practice or get in match-up experience.

 

[Blackbelt]

When two people pick up that controller it's as if two warriors meet on a battle ground.

For me doing anything less then trying to crush my opponent...is unworthy and disrespectful to my opponent.

I would only hold back if my opponent asked me too in order to practice or get in match-up experience.

I agree with this line of thinking entirely.


And I thank you so very much for your input.

 

[PKNintendo]

When two people pick up that controller it's as if two warriors meet on a battle ground.

For me doing anything less then trying to crush my opponent...is unworthy and disrespectful to my opponent.

I would only hold back if my opponent asked me too in order to practice or get in match-up experience.

Makes sense, I suppose.

 

[pianodude700]

Agreed...when my bro plays marth (not very often) he refuses to use the CG.
And I feel like he's holding back...i win almost every time (his marth ain't very good lol).
Yet he won't chaingrab because he feels it's "dishonorable"
I keep telling him "marth in tournament won't feel the same please just CG me"
....."no"

grr

 

[prOAPC]

grabrelease is not that bad for Lucas
the Fsmash after a grabrelease can be stopped with a simple jab
i play with 5 different Marths here, and my Lucas has no problem angaist them, that's why i said those number (i'm not good with theory, so i'm talking about my experience)

 

[Excellence]

Against Marth I find myself shielding a lot more. What are you guys using out of your shields? I've been using Ftilt, which works pretty well for me, but since it spaces Marth for another attack so it's a little cat n' mouse.

 

[Emblem Lord]

APC: I will just venture to say that the Marth's you play suck.

How do I know?

Because in your post before you stated that Marth's like to abuse their smashes. However this is false. All of Marth's smashes are punishable on block and this is common knowledge among the Marth boards. So for you to think this leads me to believe that your competition uses Smash attacks alot, which would mean they aren't very good or at the very least they don't play smart or have a basic understanding of playing safe.

Also you might just be better then them.

 

[Trozz]

Try to stage spike him. I'd suggest playing on a narrow stage. Make sure you know how to push yourself backwards with PKFire.

 

[Blackbelt]

I believe, thanks to Emblem Lord, that we can wrap up this matchup and move onto a new one.

Now starting Matchup #6: King Dedede.

 

[ZMan]

Lucas is at an advantage vs. Dedede (like, 60-40). Aproching with PKfire blocks Waddle Dees and Doos, Gordo can be easily shielded or reflected back at DDD. IF a Waddle Doo is out on the field it heals Lucas around like 60-something %. While Lucas can be CG'd and I think Lucas eats a utilt out of jump release. Nair tears DDD a new because of how fat he is, PK thunder wrecks him offstage. And if your having a good day, you can land all three hits of the Dsmash on DDD. considering the fact that DDD is probably is in the top 3 chars in the game, Lucas might be bumped up to mid just because of this good matchup.

Sorry if the sounded bad, I'm super tired.

 

[pianodude700]

I'm going to have to disagree ZMan. The same advantage that Lucas gets with PKF can be countered with the waddle dees. Although thunder is great, it's not enough to give lucas an advantage, and D-smash only seems effective when dedede is spamming spot dodge or you're on a platform above him. (note: gordo is blown up by PKF)

I see a lot of people saying the jab combo is great in this matchup.
It can be good sometimes, but the fact of the matter is that dedede can grab you in between hits out of shield
The grab is that fast.

When you DO land hits of the jab combo or especially if he shields the first hit, try to mix a jab cancel with a dodge or grab to avoid eating a CG.

For example if I try to nair dedede and he shields it, then follow up with a jab combo, he can grab me mid combo.
Most characters would eat jab, but dedede's grab is too fast.
After that, I tried nairing and landing on the other side of him so if he shielded i wouldn't get grabbed. He baired me out of shield. This leads me to believe that if the nair is shielded, the best option is to quickly run back, PK fire, and start the approach over.
Dair seems to be the safer approach, but has less potential for success. However, it's much easier to space and keep you from getting grabbed.
High risk, high reward principle.

PK fire spam is good, but again can be countered with waddle dee spam, or he can just walk toward you shielding. Know when to stop.
Keep in mind though that if he throws waddle doo (whichever the lasering one is) go aggresive immediately. Try anything you can to knock dedede far back enough to absorb a shot of the laser beam. It's a free ~70%.

I would use more grab against dedede, since he can abuse shieldgrab so well, but this is just my opinion. Learn pivot grab if you're going to do that...grab is a bit too slow and punishable with CG.
Since dedede's spot dodge is so fast as well, it's just a dangerous situation. f-tilt outranges every last one of your attacks, so if you want to play safe, this is just a long long match.

If you're grabbed, just mash buttons and hope you break, or try to spam dash in the direction the CG is going giving dedede a smaller window to get it right.

Edgeguarding: I would just PK thunder/freeze. Usually thunder. Aggresive edgeguarding is dangerous against the bair (and the dair for that matter). If he up-B's, try to up smash him from under, but if you have even a shadow of a doubt it will be too slow, don't do it because it hurts when he sits on you.
PKT2 hurts good when you get him because he's so big, but space carefully or you're asking for another grab. Even the tether must be done carefully to avoid getting a d-tilt.

I have personally found zap jump to work wonders as a recovery mindgame.

All in all, it's tough, and against a good dedede, it's going to take a long time to win.
I'd say this is 65-35 dedede

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

One thing I will say about dedede that not many people know about is he can chain grab most characters so try not to get close enough to get grabbed......I suggest staying as far away from him as possible...spamming pk fire in this fight might not be the worst idea since he is a very large character (also attacks such as n-air can cause great damage since h is large), and when he uses his up-b to recover you have one of 3 options...you can pk thunder him on his way down, you can space yourself to stand a couple steps away from where he will land and absorb the stars he releases when he lands, or you can stand a ways back and punish his laggy landing. Also keep an eye out for his waddle dees that emits lightning sparks...get near it and keep psi shield as soon as he sparks (doing this will heal you for a substantial amount). Also know that his side smash is a tiny bit faster than lucas' so chose this wisely. His attacks have a very large range so like i said before, keep your space away from him as much as possible.That’s about all I have on dedede since I haven’t fought many people that play him too much.

 

[pianodude700]

You have a lot of misinformation here.
For one, lol, everyone knows dedede is a notorious chaingrabber. It's why everyone hates him.
Lucas's side smash is WAY faster than dedede's as well. However, it also lacks range.

Of course, nair and PKF are good, just remember that they aren't infalliable and dedede does have some options against these things.

Information on the up-B is good.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

You have a lot of misinformation here.
For one, lol, everyone knows dedede is a notorious chaingrabber. It's why everyone hates him.
Lucas's side smash is WAY faster than dedede's as well. However, it also lacks range.

Of course, nair and PKF are good, just remember that they aren't infalliable and dedede does have some options against these things.

Information on the up-B is good.

I'm sorry if my information is wrong...this is just based on the handful of fights that i have had with dedede. I wasn't saying it was anything set in stone =P

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

wow im sorry i just caught that i said side smash...i meant his side b attack >_<