Discussion of Aerial QD "Attempt to Advance Ike gameplay"

First intro myself, I'm 3xSwords (referred as swords or 3xS) and I was originally an Ike mainer. I sorta stopped maining him when I realized he barely advanced in terms of gameplay. But have recently come back to him, because of growing interest. And I feel aerial QD is one way to advance his metagame. I know there is a thread about QD advantages but this is here b/c somebody felt I should take my post and make it a seperate thread.

First of aerial QD being used as a long range game is what I hope to expand upon with the community. Sonic players consider moves like their spin dash (sideB or downB) to be their long range game and in the those respects aerial QD is the same.

I'm sure we all know counter draw? Well apply that expect doing other moves besides counter this gives Ike a plethora of options. He doesn't get a sudden boost but the slide increases the range on all attacks except for upB, QD, and dsmash. Why is this inportant? Well all attacks includes grab and we all know how ****ty Ike's grab range is, but with this it is drastically improved. There are many things that can be done and these are what I believe have very good uses:

Shield and slide so you can shield grab, D-tilt slide, grab slide, pivot and you will slide with your back to the opponent, sets up shield>bair out of shield, jab slide aka jab canceling, spot dodge slide, u-tilt slide for the true grand viper, u-smash slide, and F-smash SLIDE (lulz XD).

Sure this tactic may only apply to characters that have no projectiles and don't have insane speed, but this is a perfect complement to Ike's game which is usually landing one-hit, waiting, landing another hit. With this after you knock them across the stage you can do SH>QD aerial release>anything to constantly pressure them. One example is f-throw or b-throw at around mid%'s sends them pretty far from there you can SH backward>aerial release QD>into another grab to reset situation, jab, etc.

You can mix it up and choose to hold it a second longer and do a QD on the ground. Also if you do aerial QD and initial dash backwards he will run in place. You can also immediately jump as soon as you hit the ground. Using aether and d-smash makes you stop in place and attack, while another QD could serve as a fake out. These tactics can all mess with your opponent's mind. You might even get a normal QD hit in there.

Discuss ways to setup a situation where an aerial QD is useful and variations of what can be done out of the slide. (And I know it isn't amazing but Ike really needs some sort of advancement in his playstyle and if you've already expanded on this tactic please post your uses of the aerial release QD so we can bring out the full potential of this move).

If someone made a list of what projectiles QD cancelled out that'd be nifty...it's sure help his projectile match-ups for sure.

Aeriel quickdraws I, personally, mainly use in combination with F-tilt since it has the most horizontal range and great power. I haven't really used other moves with it, besides maybe the occasional U-smash (If that's possible...memory's hazy atm.)

Also, best use of Quickdraws is to mix it up. The main aeriel forms of quickdraw are:

- Short-hop away from your opponent, but QD towards them. (Used for psyching out, maybe for appropriate spacing.)

- QD while coming back from the air after being knocked off the stage. (Will have the most sliding momentum, although most easily predicted.)

- Short-hop towards your opponent, then quickdraw. (General approach/spacing.)

Just thought I'd categorize these. Oh, and also, retreating Quickdraws to maybe a D/U-smash could be useful if they attempt to chase you (Especially if used in conjunction with more mindgame-esque techniques like Dash-dancing.)

Yes that's a good start. Projectiles that QD cancel out. Hmmmm... I know it cancels out Gordo (the spiky guy) when DDD throws his waddle dees from Silven's Ike combo vid. Then that means all the waddle dees and pikmin too?

You can do U-smash. My fav. is f-smash, grab, jab, and d-tilt. F-smash slide is just funny. Ike with a better grab range is amazing. Jab is very versatile. Thing about d-tilt. I'm sure everybody knows about the second hitbox that sends the opponent horizontally and kills at ridiculously low %'s right? Well if you use the slide then you can easily hit with the second hitbox. Also if I remember correctly d-tilt was thought to have SA frames but instead they were psuedo-SA frames, and they worked b/c you would d-tilt so close to the opponent so that the d-tilt still hit them even if they damaged you. Well aerial QD>d-tilt for surprise kill at 60% anyone?

I jump and use QD to approach over projectiles. It's not the best thing to do, I admit, but I'm also quite lazy, and it's just effective enough to work.

As for QD colliding with projectiles... It's a bad idea. The following projectiles after the collision will hit you, thanks to Ike's wonderful recovery time.

It should also be noted that neutral-A combined with QD has NO ATTACK LAG. The other attacks take slightly longer to execute, but neutral-A remains the same speed.

__V said:

It should also be noted that neutral-A combined with QD has NO ATTACK LAG. The other attacks take slightly longer to execute, but neutral-A remains the same speed.

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I can't imagine how that is even close to being true...QD can't "magically" reduce attack time for a particular move. It may just seem like it because the jab comes out faster than other attacks.

Edit: QD into projectiles is just very bad...from what I can remember almost every projectile goes through...as for pikmin it will count as hitting something...resulting the lag we all know and love. In short there are far better options to counteract projectiles.

Kirk said:

I can't imagine how that is even close to being true...QD can't "magically" reduce attack time for a particular move. It may just seem like it because the jab comes out faster than other attacks.

Edit: QD into projectiles is just very bad...from what I can remember almost every projectile goes through...as for pikmin it will count as hitting something...resulting the lag we all know and love. In short there are far better options to counteract projectiles.

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You didn't read what I wrote. Neutral-A has no lag time, while the other attacks have a small amount of added lag. Neutral-A executes with the same speed as if you're standing still, and the other attacks are slightly slower.

Well you cancel out a projectile if you got the jab out quickly enough. But that's probably not going to happen. Then agian I'll repeat myself "This attack will be restricted to use against characters without projectiles and insane speed/range aka metaknight. So we should skip trying to figure out if QD can trump projectiles b/c it can't.

Instead try to focus discussion on possible setups or situations where using an aerial QD > anything will result in intimidation, damage, or a kill.

__V the jab information is useful but is it really true? Other attacks don't seem that much slower...

How far of a slide are we talking about? Do you still slide if you start charging Eruption? Because that would force people to back off. Moving, charging, large fiery attack with superarmor = a lot of damage if hit.

Also, how well would that work with Dtilt? A sliding spike is helpful. If it hits, they opponent can't punish you for lag due to spike effect.

__V said:

You didn't read what I wrote. Neutral-A has no lag time, while the other attacks have a small amount of added lag. Neutral-A executes with the same speed as if you're standing still, and the other attacks are slightly slower.

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I believe I did read. You have the same time to act after QD with any move...how can one of Ike's attack's lag be different then all of his other attacks? That doesn't sound right to me. QD doesn't give extra attention to one move over another in terms of what you speak of...since you can act as soon as QD ends and you are in the neutral position.

3xSwords said:

__V the jab information is useful but is it really true? Other attacks don't seem that much slower...

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He agrees with me :D

I agree with Kirk.

Ike's potential lies in Aether, Eruption, sidestepping and dash attack. Not Quick Draw.

ikes potential lies in me! muwahahaha, but yeah, yeah...

Umbreon said:

I agree with Kirk.

Ike's potential lies in Aether, Eruption, sidestepping and dash attack. Not Quick Draw.

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^This

now srsly doodz, no moar QD discussion. >.>

Umbreon said:

I agree with Kirk.

Ike's potential lies in Aether, Eruption, sidestepping and dash attack. Not Quick Draw.

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No. Just no. Ike's entire approach is based off the use of QD. Without it, you can only defend and punish.

Because there are no other ways to approach....totally. *eye roll* Eruption=super armor and super edge guarder. Aether=even better edge guarding, although the super armor doesn't count for too much. Kirk doesn't run around spamming b moves and dash attacks, just a friendly fyi.

Foward-smash is the best approach ever.

^_^

^Tru dat once again lol.

the epic mindxors:D

Now about Ike's potential not lying in QD I'll agree. Because as I've stated previously the aerial QD will be limited to the likes of Ganon, C.Falcon, Jigglypuff, etc. Characters w/o projectiles that won't be able to readily defend themselves after you knock them away.

Here I'll give an example since nobody feels like it. F-throw or b-throw at mid%'s, these set up a lot of things one of the quickest options would be dash attack. Now if I've done an f-throw >dash attack successfully earlier in the match then the opponent will likely be wary and try to tech or jump so they don't just sit on the ground.

Now if I do an aerial QD, maybe even short dash dance to aerial QD, I could force them to tech or jump. If they tech I could just grab to recreate same situation, jab, u-tilt, etc, but if they jump I could choose to u-smash or immediately jump and fair. So basically aerial QD can be used as a pressure tool in certain situations in matchups that could result in another 15-20% for Ike.

So whether or not you are going to say all of Ike's potential is in eruption and aether, which I acknowledged in the discussion thread, I'm just saying let's see how much we can bring out potential of QD so that its not left at being just a laggy crap move or Grand Viper. I think aerial QD>shield has a lot of potential options.

Also you do slide when you are charging eruption. Depends on how long you charge QD. The slide I'm talking about is you SH>start charging right before the peak of the jump then release when you are fairly close to the ground. I believe Ike should delay the charging of the QD since it doesn't show your hand immediately. Also, if you've ever since a Samus match you'll notice she SH and doesn't perform an action until she is falling from the peak of her jump. This keeps the opponent guessing whether she will do an autocancel zair, missile cancel, bomb, aerial, etc. In the same respects Ike can do it also.

Why are people talking about Eruption anyways...?

Because of the Super Armor Frame rates? Sounds like a flimsy approach, if that's how you're looking at it. If not, don't mind me.

Nyjin said:

Why are people talking about Eruption anyways...?

Because of the Super Armor Frame rates? Sounds like a flimsy approach, if that's how you're looking at it. If not, don't mind me.

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Because it can be the second most powerful attack in the game (After The Maim and Watch Bucket), and can kill Mario in the center of FD at 10% when released at the perfect time. At least, thats what one guy found out on GameFAQs when he started testing to see which attacks could KO under 100%. Now, imagine what that could do to a MK. With right timing, he can't knock you out of it due to super armor frames. Of course, you can't just sit there charging it to nail him with it. That isn't going to work.

Now, imagine how well it could work if you slide forward, charging it, into MK, so it will kill at lower % damage. Same thing could happen to Mr.G&Ws, as he's even lighter. Or Jigglypuffs. You get the picture.

And to people saying to not bother with QD with anything: You should find a use for every attack. It's not wise just to throw out a move as a "worthless move". You're just limiting yourself that much more.

Nidtendofreak said:

And to people saying to not bother with QD with anything: You should find a use for every attack. It's not wise just to throw out a move as a "worthless move". You're just limiting yourself that much more.

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No one is saying its a worthless move, or at least I'm not. The point is that there are usually better options to use in place if it.

Kirk said:

No one is saying its a worthless move, or at least I'm not. The point is that there are usually better options to use in place if it.

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That was more at Falcon and whoever it was he quoted then you.

Nidtendofreak said:

That was more at Falcon and whoever it was he quoted then you.

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Fair enough. Regardless I like to contribute to the discussion in some way.

Since this thread is mainly about QD...maybe we should keep the discussion a little more focused

__V said:

No. Just no. Ike's entire approach is based off the use of QD. Without it, you can only defend and punish.

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Short hop Neutral A says hi.

AlphaDragoon2002 said:

Short hop Neutral A says hi.

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Not as effective as QD'ing across the stage and neutral-Aing them. More damage and less likely to be defended against.

__V said:

Not as effective as QD'ing across the stage and neutral-Aing them. More damage and less likely to be defended against.

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More damage sure...but how is (metaphorically [incase some people didnt't get it >.>]) yelling "Hey! I'm about to use Quick Draw to approach you" less likely to be defended against? It gives them more time to shield and if you mess up and hit their shield, that's a free hit for your opponent.

Not to say you shouldn't use it at all. But to risk sounding like a broken record, there are better options. Nair can be spaced appropriately and be relatively safe if shielded...and Fair is godly with spacing, just to name a few.

That's why you don't mess up XD. Getting to the point..... Talk about QD please. Sure there are better options but just b/c Snake's f-tilt is godly, they don't always use that. Sometimes they use d-tilt which isn't as "good." But anyway the slide of charging eruption into the opponent isn't amazing. Unless you're going to charge QD after Double Jumping which isn't very surprising.

So not to sound like a broken record can you guys please talk about QD????? Ok? Its not that hard, think of some setups, some situation where this would be useful, or good uses of the slide.

So let me say one last time QD is not amazing but that doesn't make it useless, and such we are trying to expand upon the potential of this move. I mean who doesn't want an extra 10-20% on their opponent or added intimidation? Thus we will talk about aerial QD'ing and its uses and ONLY about them. If you want to talk about another move next, I will make a thread when this is done. So please try to discuss QD, if you don't want to, then please wait for the next move discussion or something (if that happens)

That being said I want to test this out on sloped areas. Depending on results Lylat could become a must neutral stage for Ike.

But you see, we are in fact discussing Quick Draw. And I believe like 5 people already stated that QD isn't useless, including myself. So yes, we know this :D

All I was trying to say is if you mess up Quick Draw, there is more oppurtunity for your opponent to punish than if you mess up another move. And I'm sure we all know that no one is perfect.

I personally prefer B-reversals than anything else, as it's much faster and can present a "wtf!?" factor if done correctly.

As for the whole sliding thing, it *can* be useful if you get used to the timing and spacing needed to pull it off. It just takes longer to initiate the setup.

You can possibly, instead of starting from a SH, start it from when you're descending when you are hit upwards...and I don't mean RIGHT when you are sent up. Time it before you hit the ground somewhat...I dunno. Just a random thought I thought of just now o.O

__V said:

No. Just no. Ike's entire approach is based off the use of QD. Without it, you can only defend and punish.

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....Wow. Just..wow. You have no idea what you are talking about. Over b is destroyed by campers, and is so easy to intercept. Losing control to jet forward doing a very unsafe move is not what I want to have for an approach.

And it's not useless, it's just not good. I use it when I can, only to cover distance quicker than a dash. And if I see a chance of an interception, I dont do it.

Falconv1.0 said:

....Wow. Just..wow. You have no idea what you are talking about. Over b is destroyed by campers, and is so easy to intercept. Losing control to jet forward doing a very unsafe move is not what I want to have for an approach.

And it's not useless, it's just not good. I use it when I can, only to cover distance quicker than a dash. And if I see a chance of an interception, I dont do it.

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I'd love to show you how wrong you are.

QD is one Ike's most useful moves. If used correctly, it can be used to combat camping and to catch up to the faster characters. It isn't a great recovery, and it isn't a great attack, but using QD's slide with a neutral-A is extremely good at approaching, and not easy to defend against.

*sigh* I think even 3x is saying that QD isn't very good we are just trying to see what can possibly be done with QD besides the obvious which isn't much. I forgot if someone mentioned this but I was thinking it could give a boost to a RAR since your sliding a bit.

QD...I love the move, but since this thread has started my brainstorming I'm at a complete blank...

Someone hurry up and find an AT involving QD!

__V said:

I'd love to show you how wrong you are.

QD is one Ike's most useful moves. If used correctly, it can be used to combat camping and to catch up to the faster characters. It isn't a great recovery, and it isn't a great attack, but using QD's slide with a neutral-A is extremely good at approaching, and not easy to defend against.

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...Uh, no, Pit's arrows and stuff like that easily interrupt it. And it is waaaaaay too easy to predict, wtf.

I have Umbreon on my side here, **** whatever opinion you have.

^if someone better than you agrees with you do you just take up as a law?

I seriously think they should change the purple names to something else and give you the title of smash elitist. wtf is with "**** whatever opinion you have, between the lines: I'm better than you so I'm right and your wrong"

with the Ike boards finally getting better can't you just leave and stop posting here since you said they make you sad inside or something like that.

Arturito_Burrito said:

^if someone better than you agrees with you do you just take up as a law?

I seriously think they should change the purple names to something else and give you the title of smash elitist. wtf is with "**** whatever opinion you have, between the lines: I'm better than you so I'm right and your wrong"

with the Ike boards finally getting better can't you just leave and stop posting here since you said they make you sad inside or something like that.

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It was more or less half a joke, ehe. >.>

Glad to see my sarcasm being appreciated. Sadly you made me go emo so I cant post here because I don't want you to beat up on me anymore. /wrist /wrist /wrist

lol, besides that, I thought you agree on the fact QD isn't that good anyways.


*ROFLcopters away

Arturito you can give RAR a "boost" technically. If you pivot when you hit the ground you will slide with your back to the opponent. From there you can do a bair, so I guess you can consider that RAR except you jump whenever you want during the slide. This could be extremely useful for a shield>bair out of shield. Personally I like spot dodging during the slide b/c you can move into the blindspot of the opponent if they tried to f-smash or grab you while were sliding.

Kirk said:

But you see, we are in fact discussing Quick Draw. And I believe like 5 people already stated that QD isn't useless, including myself. So yes, we know this :D

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I think it's useless. It's inferior to Aether as a recovery, inferior to every attack Ike has as an attack, and an inferior form of movement. Compared to fox's sideB, which is also bad, it's a joke. Ike's best way to recover is to wait it out and up B. Ike's best way of attacking is mashing buttons compared to QD. Ike's best means of movement is dashes and short hops and clever use of shield taps or sidestepping.

You know what generally doesn't make something good? Forfeiting all control while throwing yourself at your opponent while praying he doesn't attack you first with his choice of move.

Umbreon said:

I think it's useless. It's inferior to Aether as a recovery, inferior to every attack Ike has as an attack, and an inferior form of movement. Compared to fox's sideB, which is also bad, it's a joke. Ike's best way to recover is to wait it out and up B. Ike's best way of attacking is mashing buttons compared to QD. Ike's best means of movement is dashes and short hops and clever use of shield taps or sidestepping.

You know what generally doesn't make something good? Forfeiting all control while throwing yourself at your opponent while praying he doesn't attack you first with his choice of move.

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Quick Draw is inferior. We know. I know. You've expressed your opinion before on the matter and it was well received.

I still believe that QD isn't as useless as you say. All of your points are very valid and I don't disagree. That doesn't mean one should NEVER even think about using QD. Even if you are using it once or twice in a match, right there it shows the move is not useless. You may not use it barely at all, since Ike has better options going for him, but there are times where QD is the best thing to do, as rare as those times may be. And the fact that you wouldn't be using QD barely at all in the first place gives more reason to incorporate it for an added element of surprise...but that's debatable.

In short, I believe you are just exaggerating the uselessness of the move...that's all.

I agree with Kirk whole-heartedly.

Honestly, you make QD sound like the worst move ever created. It's definitely not his best, maybe not even one of his decent moves. But being able to use a situational move effectively is vital to your play, because you have to try to perfect yourself as much as possible. I've already stated the use of Aeriel QD in my first post, don't just immediately dismiss it because you refuse to alter your opinion even slightly.

Down smash out of the aeriel QD seems to stop the momentum so that doesn't seem that useful. = /

I've tried aeriel QD -> grab when people weren't expecting a QD and it's been relatively useful.

Nyjin said:

I agree with Kirk whole-heartedly.
don't just immediately dismiss it because you refuse to alter your opinion even slightly.

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One's opinion shouldn't change because of another's, one must change it if his beliefs are changed do so sort of discovery, realization, etc. And Umbreon believes Ike is good, I think he's pretty freaking steadfast in his beliefs.

(Unless he flipped on that while I wasn't here. O_o)

mazhaoshen said:

Down smash out of the aeriel QD seems to stop the momentum so that doesn't seem that useful. = /

I've tried aeriel QD -> grab when people weren't expecting a QD and it's been relatively useful.

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Yeah D-smash, aether, another QD backwards, jumping, and dashing backwards all seem to stop the momentum of the slide. I mentioned some of them not all so hope this clears it up.

Also one of the main reason I got excited for aerial QD was the increased grab range. Then all the other good stuff.

Anyway thing about slopes is. Sometimes you slide from an aerial QD and sometimes you just hit the upward slope and just stop. The reason why I believed slopes might be useful was that you would be able to do an aerial QD sooner in your SH instead of waiting a second before doing so just so you don't reveal your hand.

However, tested a bit on Yoshi's story and Lylat, and it seems that aerial QD turns into a grounded QD, meaning no slide . Sometimes I would Aerial QD into one of the slopes in Yoshi's island and Ike would stop but you would hear him saying "ha!!!' like he just released another QD. Don't think that's too useful besides warrior audio glitch battle cry intimidation.

However, since the slope angles are not as drastic on Lylat as Yoshi's story so there were instances where I got the slide effect. Although if you aerial QD where it is tilted downwards be careful as you might SD off the side.

Anybody want to test or explain why Aerial QD'ing into the slope on Yoshi's story will cause him to completely stop sometimes (audio glitch occurs) but not always?