PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Uffe · Sep 15, 2008

thesage said:
Wat? Kirby is easy. Fox is a harder matchup than Kirby. I'm pretty sure it's in advantage of Ness. 60-40 Ness at worst.

Only when you footstool him on his Kirbycide mission. :þ I suppose Kirby could be easy. I find him a lot easier than Wario, that's for sure.

Earthbound360 · Sep 15, 2008

Ness wins on Kirby at about a moderate advantage. And of course Kirby players think its neutral, everyone think their matchup on Ness is neutral because he is underrated, but I've played Kirbys and Ness has the advantage for sure.

If some stupid Kirby hits the floor, then use PKF on him and it will block him and force him to stay in the stone. Proceed with a PKT2. But like I said, that has to be one stupid Kirby to do that.

Brinzy · Sep 15, 2008

Earthbound360 said:
Ness wins on Kirby at about a moderate advantage. And of course Kirby players think its neutral, everyone think their matchup on Ness is neutral because he is underrated, but I've played Kirbys and Ness has the advantage for sure.

And thus begins the cycle.

Asdioh · Sep 15, 2008

About the PKT2 on Kirby's Stone...you don't have to do 30+ damage in one hit to knock Kirby out of Stone. You can hit him with a 5% plus attack, and then do 25% PKT2 and knock him out of Stone. Be aware, though, that no matter how much damage you do, knocking Kirby out of Stone will only do knockback, and not damage. Kirby can turn into a Stone by that big monster on New Pork City...when it chomps him, it normally does 200% damage, but if you're a Stone, it will send you flying (really far and really fast) but you will die at 0% (or whatever your damage currently is), not 200%+.

You don't generally have to worry about Stone too much, unless you're using PK Thunder or he's good at mindgames.

Anyway, here are two matches of me against Smash64's Ness (he wins both). Sadly, I was completely ignorant of the matchup, as it was my first time playing Ness offline, and I think I would do much better against him now that I know some more about Ness. I did not know about Fair's amazing range, or how strong upair is, or how to DI out of PK Fire. I also epic failed at one point and stood still as a PK Flash hit my face, it will probably make you Ness users happy. But my Kirby is still good, it should give you an idea of what to watch out for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OtY87ijU40 match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdoebyz_DRo match 2

And thus begins the cycle.

XD

If I were to be as unbiased as I can...I'd put it at about 50/50. No, really.

Ref · Sep 15, 2008

Super grab break the kirbycide.... You have to not know how to break free of a grab for them to get you at 0%.... Kirby cide is good in higher percents though.... As there are more frames to be stuck in a grab

And about the pkt2 against MK tornado is something that I need to explain... The tornado does not beat it...

The problem is everything Ness hit's something with pkt2 his PKT2 duration and length is shortened.... So basically you over power all those hits that causes Ness' PKT2 to stop almost instantly... This is why if the nado is grounded Ness will make MK stop the attack by over prioritizing it, and hit MK during the time.
Even better if you hit the nado where the attacks are less frequent towards the bottom and not the middle, you will hit him... In the air where only projectiles clank you cannot stop Mk's tornado so you get trapped in the hitboxes until you are done pkt2ing this will happen really fast because of the numerous ones....

Take this example, Bowser's fire breath beats PKT2 for the same reason... You over power all those hits that PKT2 stops soon... Then you get hit by the fire breath...

Basically you can say the tornado does beat PKT2, at least know why though... It's a physic of Brawl's PKT2 that makes this happen. If it wasn't like that then no problem...

If you want to get super technical any stream of rapid attacks that Ness' PKT2 beats, beats Ness' PKT2

In Priority, Ness' PKT2 destroys the nado completely...

Uffe · Sep 15, 2008

Asdioh, you're the type of Kirby I encounter on a weekly basis.

Asdioh · Sep 15, 2008

Uffe said:
Asdioh, you're the type of Kirby I encounter on a weekly basis.

...is that a compliment or :/

I don't know if you're talking about my playstyle or the fact that I would rate the matchup at about even..

Uffe · Sep 15, 2008

Asdioh said:
...is that a compliment or :/

I don't know if you're talking about my playstyle or the fact that I would rate the matchup at about even..

Compliment. That's the kind of playstyle I like going up against. Someone who knows how to use Kirby's different techniques and not these camping Kirby's who spam Final Cutter. Because fighting Kirby who can do a semi-chaingrab and some other techiniques gets me at high enough percent and then I wonder how the heck I'm going to return the favor. XD

Earlier today I went against possibly the worst Kirby I've ever encountered because all he was trying to do was Kirbycide me. Instead I just daired him. But anyway I want to be able to play Kirby like you do. Plus your Kirby is the ocean color, so you get more points on that.

thesage · Sep 15, 2008

My kirby is a ghost. But I only played him in melee cuz of Kirbycides. I don't like him as much in brawl.

Wave⁂ · Sep 15, 2008

Kirby can combo. And... that's all.

Asdioh · Sep 15, 2008

Sweet :D I had no idea what your intention was in your first post.

I've seen people complain about final cutter spamming Kirbys being hard .... it is possibly THE most punishable move he has, I don't see the problem. I actually get KO'd a lot because I land a final cutter too close to the opponent. It's incredibly easy to block/dodge, and you can just run up, powershield the shockwave, and punish him during landing lag. And Ness can absorb it? Even better.

I do tend to mix up my moves more than the "top" Kirbys, which makes me lose, but I think it makes me a little more interesting to watch. It's kinda boring to watch a Kirby that does nothing but play defensive, grab, bair, and fsmash.

Also, I found Kirbyciding far harder to do at this tourney than it is online. You probably noticed I tried it a couple times against Smash64, to no avail.

By the way, is Smash64 fairly well-known in the Ness community? He's freaking good.

thesage · Sep 15, 2008

Uh... Ness can absorb the final cutter projectile... so... it shouldn't be a problem.

Kirby's final cutter is a pretty good move.

What's key to this matchup is learning to DI out of his combos. Good people like Chu can sometimes get 80% out of combos (he did this against Ninjalink's snake). Be glad Ness is good at getting out of combos this game.

Ref · Sep 15, 2008

Final cutter is a pretty good move. DIing out of combos is key... I'm still not sure how the match up is...

Asdioh · Sep 15, 2008

The best way to DI out of Kirby's throw combos is up. Especially after dthrow. Fthrow->uair is most likely inescapable at 0%, but who knows. I've been told fthrow->uair->fthrow->uair against Falco is inescapable, yet I've seen Falcos go wtf far away and escape the second uair easily.

Kirby can combo. And... that's all.

He can do a lot more than that. Like edgeguard with PK Flash, lolol. Except he's screwed if you absorb it.

Random: I saw a Ness (maybe Smash64) go down and absorb the Great Fox's lasers on Corneria in some match. I was like WHAT! and then he died because he couldn't get back up, so oops on his part XD

Ref · Sep 15, 2008

Asdioh said:
Random: I saw a Ness (maybe Smash64) go down and absorb the Great Fox's lasers on Corneria in some match. I was like WHAT! and then he died because he couldn't get back up, so oops on his part XD

That's been around since Melee... I'm pretty sure the tactic is banned in some melee though for being a semi stall tactic....

I think Simna was almost disqualified for doing it once in a tourney... Not to sure on that one...

Levitas · Sep 15, 2008

Ademisk was. I don't think simna ever was. And it wasn't a DQ, it was a game loss.

thesage · Sep 15, 2008

Ademisk was disqualified for that? O_o;

I always liked jungle japes better. Why'd they ruin it in brawl. -.-

Kirby is like the only multijump character vulnerable to dair spike that isn't ddd or pit. His uair barely protects him and his upb is spikeable. Unless kirby floats all the way to the top which sets up for juggling then Ness can edgeguard him pretty well.

Snake is HOMO.

Gaussis · Sep 15, 2008

What exactly did you dislike? I personally prefer it now, due to the fact that the river literally kills anyone that goes down there, rather than not doing anything, like in Melee (still wasn't bad, as that fish still was a threat). I find Ness's dair easier to land in this game, so maybe that's why I prefer it I guess.

I have nothing to contribute for Kirby, though. I find him rather fun (his air hammer mostly), but to state his pros and cons would generally restate everything that has been said about him.

Uffe · Sep 15, 2008

Asdioh said:
Sweet :D I had no idea what your intention was in your first post.

I've seen people complain about final cutter spamming Kirbys being hard .... it is possibly THE most punishable move he has, I don't see the problem. I actually get KO'd a lot because I land a final cutter too close to the opponent. It's incredibly easy to block/dodge, and you can just run up, powershield the shockwave, and punish him during landing lag. And Ness can absorb it? Even better.

I do tend to mix up my moves more than the "top" Kirbys, which makes me lose, but I think it makes me a little more interesting to watch. It's kinda boring to watch a Kirby that does nothing but play defensive, grab, bair, and fsmash.

Also, I found Kirbyciding far harder to do at this tourney than it is online. You probably noticed I tried it a couple times against Smash64, to no avail.

By the way, is Smash64 fairly well-known in the Ness community? He's freaking good.

Yes. I'm glad Kirby is back in Brawl. I don't mean by appearance but by him being buffed once again. I mained him in SSB64, played him a bit in Melee but didn't like him that much because oh my gosh he seemed so weak. I had to test him in Brawl to see what he was made of and I am glad he's got his power back. So ever since that I knew for a fact he'd be a great character and I knew I'd be able to find a way to play him better just like the Kirby mains.

Also, I don't mind Final Cutter. I know I mentioned spammy Kirby players, but that doesn't mean you should never use his Final Cutter. Like a few others have already said, it is in fact a good attack. Saved me against a scary Sonic player before. Of course this Sonic was nothing like Tenki's. And yes, Final Cutter can be absorbed. At least the projectile part. Anyway, as for Smash64, I'm sure some of us have heard of him. I know I have. As for using absorbable projectile on Ness' return, I and I'm sure a few others have a trick up our sleeves for that. ;D

By the way, good to see a Kirby main step in these parts to share some info. C:

Asdioh · Sep 16, 2008

haha, I only came to the Ness boards because I was going to post my matches against Ness in the video thread, and I happened to see this week's discussion was Kirby, so I tried to help out. Before this weekend, I would have had almost nothing to contribute. I mained Kirby in all 3 Smashes, but never got a chance to play decent human players until brawl

I never realized Kirby sucked in Melee, I always thought he was awesome, though admittedly not the god character he was in 64.

How good would you estimate Smash64 is, as a Ness player? Because he seemed like one of the better ones out there, and he placed well in the tournament. Results thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194058 check down a few posts to see what characters were used, for the most part.

PKSkyler · Sep 16, 2008

so were even or advantaged with Kirby? im confused.

Also where should Ness counter pick vs Kirby? Where should/would Kirby counter pick vs Ness? (So we know what to ban

)

^^^^ I like seeing other people in these boards who dont main Ness. theres this weird thing going around ussually that Each board is totally segregated and if another character main comes in to argue something he gets jumped by all the people who frequent those boards.

Uffe · Sep 16, 2008

Well it was mentioned ealier that in the Kirby forum that the match up between Ness and Kirby is 50/50. And from the looks of it Asdioh plays a pretty good Kirby and if Smash64 plays a good Ness and Asdioh can get Smash64 down to one stock, then I'd say the match up is 50/50 seeing how both of these guys seem pretty skilled. Of course this match up is still open for a few days. But with the help of a Kirby main or anymore Kirby mains, things could possibly turn around.

PKSkyler · Sep 16, 2008

Uffe said:
Well it was mentioned ealier that in the Kirby forum that the match up between Ness and Kirby is 50/50. And from the looks of it Asdioh plays a pretty good Kirby and if Smash64 plays a good Ness and Asdioh can get Smash64 down to one stock, then I'd say the match up is 50/50 seeing how both of these guys seem pretty skilled. Of course this match up is still open for a few days. But with the help of a Kirby main or anymore Kirby mains, things could possibly turn around.

50/50 sounds good to me. ive played about 3 good Kirby`s in real life and a few on wifi, and the match up seems really close. The main thing Kirby has on Ness is Grab combos. Stone is good but can be outplayed. Final Cutter isnt very useful for this matchup. Ness and Kirby can both kill well, but Kirby is a bit lighter, so I think Ness has a slight advantage in that department, even though Kirby can pull of early kills and quick kills with Hammer and Fsmash(however Bair and Bthrow will get rid of kirby, along with uair. PKT2 for early kills.)

Brinzy · Sep 16, 2008

I think 50/50 is good as well... but since I haven't provided any arguments to suggest this, I guess my vote doesn't count.

Asdioh · Sep 16, 2008

PKSkyler said:
Ness and Kirby can both kill well, but Kirby is a bit lighter, so I think Ness has a slight advantage in that department, even though Kirby can pull of early kills and quick kills with Hammer and Fsmash

Aye, but Kirby can also gimp with Dair, or simply maneuver into PK Thunder so Ness just falls. Plus Kirbycide. Anyway, I'd put it at 50/50, unless someone could give something major for either side. The only thing I can think of is that Ness' Fair outprioritizes EVERYTHING, as my friend Shadowdragon is telling me now, so I'd put it at most 55:45 Ness>Kirby. But it seems pretty even. Also, who am I to tell you XD

If there are a few days left of discussion, I can post a thread on the Kirby boards or something, linking here.

Also where should Ness counter pick vs Kirby? Where should/would Kirby counter pick vs Ness? (So we know what to ban )

I hate to tell you this >_> but a Kirby would likely counterpick Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, or Frigate Orpheon against Ness. Kirby picks RC against characters with bad vertical recovery...Bowser/DK/Snake are popular. Ness' vertical recovery isn't too bad I suppose, but it would be easy to screw your pk thunder up there. Same with Lylat. And Frigate...I hate it, but I can see it being good against Ness.

Kirby doesn't really have any bad stages (we've been discussing this for a while in the Kirby boards) so pick whatever is best for you. I recently learned that Ness' Dair can ko at 0% in water (broken!) so Pirate Ship and Delfino seem to be good choices for you -.-

PKSkyler · Sep 16, 2008

Asdioh said:
Aye, but Kirby can also gimp with Dair, or simply maneuver into PK Thunder so Ness just falls. Plus Kirbycide. Anyway, I'd put it at 50/50, unless someone could give something major for either side. The only thing I can think of is that Ness' Fair outprioritizes EVERYTHING, as my friend Shadowdragon is telling me now, so I'd put it at most 55:45 Ness>Kirby. But it seems pretty even. Also, who am I to tell you XD

If there are a few days left of discussion, I can post a thread on the Kirby boards or something, linking here.

I hate to tell you this >_> but a Kirby would likely counterpick Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, or Frigate Orpheon against Ness. Kirby picks RC against characters with bad vertical recovery...Bowser/DK/Snake are popular. Ness' vertical recovery isn't too bad I suppose, but it would be easy to screw your pk thunder up there. Same with Lylat. And Frigate...I hate it, but I can see it being good against Ness.

Kirby doesn't really have any bad stages (we've been discussing this for a while in the Kirby boards) so pick whatever is best for you. I recently learned that Ness' Dair can ko at 0% in water (broken!) so Pirate Ship and Delfino seem to be good choices for you -.-

I forgot about the dair, so yeah that is good. But him just moving into PKT, i mean every one can do that, and a smart Ness has tools to stop you (or KO you along with himself at worst.) But yeah his recovery can be gimped that way.

Ness` Fair has crazy priority

I think 50-50 is good. Im not too sure who has the match up, id need some strong evidence too.

sure you should link here. It would be great to get more opinions. I belive we have till sunday or saturday. and every once in a while we visit old match ups.

Sorry! Hah well i could probably tell you Ness` counter picks for this then, for me it would be delfino or pirate ship as yousaid, or maybe corneria if I feel I need that hp recovery,but kirby`s grabs work best at low percent so it doesnt matter too much.

K well Id ban rainbow cruise then

Im used to lylat by now and frigate isnt as bad as rainbow to me.

watch for the meteor smash! haha, a ness who counter picks those stages will want you in the water, so id say get out asap cause kirby doesnt really have a spike to counter with.

Asdioh · Sep 16, 2008

I forgot to mention...Kirby's upthrow can ko at like 80% if he throws you onto one of the upper ledges right after the ship on Rainbow Cruise crashes.

^_^

Uffe · Sep 16, 2008

Asdioh said:
I forgot to mention...Kirby's upthrow can ko at like 80% if he throws you onto one of the upper ledges right after the ship on Rainbow Cruise crashes.

^_^

Oh I love using Kirby's up throw to kill people. :þ Apparently Kirby has an attack where he can get you in a corner and use his d-tilt. I don't know if it's a lock, but I was killed by it.

It was like Marth and Charizard's death grab but against the wall. I tried to DI out of it, but I knew I was done for.

Levitas · Sep 16, 2008

Uffe: SDI towards him to push him away, then SDI up and away to get out.

Uffe · Sep 16, 2008

Levitas said:
Uffe: SDI towards him to push him away, then SDI up and away to get out.

Thanks, Levitas. :D

thesage · Sep 16, 2008

I completely disagree with an even matchup. It's definetely in Ness' favor.

Kirby can usually only get one aerial out of a throw at best (cuz he can switch up with d-throw and f-throw) at low percents. However Ness also basically gets a free hit w/ pkt after a f-throw so I think the damage kinda equalizes? (I forgot how much damage his f-throw does srry).

It takes a long time for Kirby to move across the stage and the only projectile he has is final cutter, which sends him up in the air. This makes him vulnerable to long distance pkt. However if he stays close to Ness pk fire and pkt become pretty useless. However if Kirby approaches, then Ness has a pretty good defensive game Kirby has to contend with.

Ness should NEVER approach in this matchup. He CAN but he's much better off forcing Kirby to approach. Kirby cannot force Ness to approach from Final Cutter as it is abosorbable and has to much lag (startup and ending) to punish the psi magnet absorb or trick Ness into psi magneting when Kirby is going to (cuz Final Cutter is easy to see coming). Can Kirby force Ness to approach by using final cutter while Ness is in the pkt animation? A smart Ness should have spaced himself out of fc's range and hit Kirby out of fc with pkt. It really is not that hard....

Ness should stay the **** away from ledges whenever kirby is near them. If you are swallowed offstage, do not try to get out. You'll both die instead of you getting out and having a small chance of surviving while he has a very high chance.

Kirby and Ness can both kill each other pretty well. Kirby has f-smash which kills earlier than Ness can but is pretty predictable. Ness' earliest reliable killer is his bair followed by b-throw. They're also tied in the edgeguarding department as Kirby do nothing except airdodge to avoid Ness' dair offstage. Kirby has swallowcides, bair and dair --> footstool

In short I wouldn't mind saying this matchup is even if Kirby had a way of forcing Ness to approach him. Just for that fact alone it makes the matchup 60-40 Ness. I mean the whole problem with snake is that he forces Ness to approach (stupid grenades) and look how BAD that matchup is.

TwilightKirby · Sep 17, 2008

lol kirby doesn't have to force you to approach in order for a matchup to be even. You won't win the match by spamming pk thunder and pkfire the whole time... at least I have never had the slightest problem getting around those.

Really ness's main tools against kirby are his fair since kirby has an easy time beating any of ness's other aerials (they still have their uses but fair is the only unstoppable one) and grabs (ness's grabs do a good chunk of damage and he can of course kill with one).

If both players know the matchup what I generally have happen is a spacing war for grabs and bair vs fair. The rest of each characters moveset is occasionally thrown in to trick the opponent etc. but those would be the core of the matchup and that itself is pretty even. Then each character has their own little tricks to throw out every now and then.

Kirby is less consistent at killing than ness but can kill earlier. Also if a kirby player is aware of the death grab, kirby can be very difficult to grab (when i hit 100%ish I just pretend ness is the ice climbers

)

but yeah totally even but both players would have to know the matchup cause both characters have their tricks that **** the other character if they dont know they are comming etc.

50-50

I think Vicegrip would agree too =P if he would ever post lol... ill go yell at him to post here haha

Criosphinx · Sep 17, 2008

IMHO, The matchup is even, with perhaps a slight advantage toward Ness. Kirby's Bair can go through our Fair, and he can gimp a Ness pretty easily, but Ness's overall dominance both on ground and air, combined with a collection of easy kills on the puff tip the scales in our favor. This is definitely a match that could go either way, however.

Kirby's Dtilt lock is nice, but against a wall, his jab combo is raaaaaapegood.

The person I play against 70% of the time mains Kirby / Pikachu, these two matches are always in my head.

Asdioh · Sep 18, 2008

I've never even heard of Kirby's dtilt lock...because the jablock is so good, haha.

I still think it's 50:50.

And to be honest, if I were to rematch Smash64 now, I feel confident I would win. I don't mean to be arrogant, but I now know the matchup 10x better, and considering how close it was when I was ignorant, I think I could almost have an easy time.

ViceGrip · Sep 18, 2008

Um yea. Kirby vs Ness, it's a matchup full of spacing and cuteness. I think most everything has been covered about the matchup so far. Ness's fair and Kirby's bair are both godly w/ ness''s being only slightly better in terms of it's ability to beat our kirby's bair. Kirby has to really space his bair in order to beat Ness's fair. Kirby can definitely kill lower for the most part but Ness can easily get an early kill on kirby w/ an uair. uair is VERY strong and even stronger against kirby cause he's a puffball and vulnerable to being sent skyward i guess(cause he's so floaty). of course there's always pkt2 but you can't always count on that for kills, especially against wary players, so i'm not going to factor it in a whole lot. Also Sage, fthrow to pkthunder does 19%, pretty decent. It's not hard to harass kirby players w/ pk thunder but it's definitely not something that's going to force them to approach.

As far as approaching goes, i think ness can approach kirby fairly well, so it's not necessary to play a purely defensive game, although that works as well. Whenever a kirby uses stone, in my mind I see him as being in a vulnerable position because you can definitely land an uair, nair, or bair as he's coming out of it. ness will beat any ariel that kirby tries to throw out every single time if you are quick enough.

Concerning the kirbycide and getting gimped while trying to recover....just don't. if he's near the edge don't go near him, just harrass w/ a projectile. If you are moving through the air smartly and using your ariels well you should NEVER get gimped by a kirby when trying to recover.

sooo, before i write down too many randoms things about the matchup, i think that it's 50/50 (this is assuming that both charcters know the matchup and the spacing). It's 50/50 because they both don't have trouble killing and juggling the other. The both have many options and tricks up their sleeves.
As a side note i find it funny that ness's power is effectively the most useless power for kirby to take in the game haha. (psi magnet anyone?)

here's a vid 4 the heck of it w/ me vs that nub twilight at a tournament last month <3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nm0hiZlfMY

NessOnett · Sep 18, 2008

PKSkyler said:
Also where should Ness counter pick vs Kirby?

On the off chance that your tournament location(like mine) still has greengreens legal...take Kirby to his home field there. He will not get any advantage. Ness' F-throw can kill off the sides at 0%. Recovery weakness doesn't matter nearly as much with the close edges. and PKT2 with the assistance of blocks for stalling tactics, make it very easy to hit and have other low% kills. Also his rock becomes nearly useless around those bombs...those beautiful bombs XD.

ViceGrip · Sep 18, 2008

GG's is suuuch a broken stage lol. I'm glad it's banned for the most part. That's some interesting ideas about how to utilize it tho. Can't the enmey just di up when you use fthrow so that it doesn't kill? i don't recall the stage being THAT close to the kill zone.

Delfinos allll the way 4 a ness counterpick stage. Chance of spiking is just too good to pass up.

MK26 · Sep 19, 2008

50-50 seems fair.

This match seems preety much covered, theres not much to add... 'cept watch out 4 the hammer

Vicegrip said:
Can't the enmey just di up when you use fthrow so that it doesn't kill?

Yes. Hold up to prevent gimp kills.

As for counterpicking, I'd suggest picking Onett (if it isn't banned)
No bottom blastzone = no chance to be edge-guarded

Asdioh · Sep 19, 2008

Whatchewtalkin'bout, NessOnett? I intentionally turn into a stone above the Green Green bombs, just because it's fun :] that stage is hilarious, and shouldn't be banned. Just like Pirate Ship. I won a match on Pirate Ship last weekend against Fox, because he got killed by the bombs twice >_>

PKNintendo · Sep 19, 2008

Wow. Just wow. Kirby mains. Not a single insults/attack/auto Kirby matchup win (not dissing other character mainers) You guys are awesome!

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

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