Ice Climbers Matchup Thread*Closed*

archive thread for the matchup threads xD
the Ice Climber Match up Thread

im gonna take the job of handling the match ups.

creds. to KawaiiBunny for the chart
so anyways lets begin.

Bowser

Ratio-8:2
Quote:
Bowser has range, power, size, and can edgeguard fairly well.

I'm not sure how safe on the block his moves are, but he has his Jab, Forward Tilt, and F-Air to outrange the Climbers. Another move to watch out for is Up-B. It doesn't kill like it used to, but it comes out fast, and has invincibility frames.

He has many KO options. If we are from above, his Up-Air has deceptive range. Up-Smash has lots of priority and has 2 hitboxes. Forward Smash isn't that reliable, but it can hit twice, and do massive damage. Up-Tilt comes out fast. Bowser Bomb from the ground combos into itself at times and Back Air outranges the Climbers. Even Side-B can kill them at heigher percents (I'm not talking about the Bowsercide here.) It's fairly situational. Down Smash is good for killing because it has power and is multi-hit. It's pretty hard to DI out of and can eaisly split the Climbers.

Bowser is he heaviest character in the game. He's the hardest to kill horizontally, due to his size and Aerial Movement speed.

Bowser has edgeguarding options. Bowser Bomb cancel (I think when it land on the edge.) and Bowser Bomb sweetspoting is devastating, leaving a vertical wall of power coming towards the ledge. Spaced Forward Airs and Forward Tilt/Down Tilt all hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Flamethrower is commonly used in this situation, as it racks up damage and makes it difficult to grab the ledge. Down Air is multi-hit with a landing hitbox. If this connects, it will split the Climbers.

Unfortunately, it's his size that does him in in this matchup.

He's the eaisest character to Forward chain throw. It leave a bit of room for error, due to his character frame. He has trouble getting out of Blizzard Walls and Squall Hammer can chain into itself and a grab at low percents. Bowser isn't that hard to grab in my experience.

Squall Hammer also sets up for Juggling opportunities. Up- Air's destroy Bowser at low percents. Up Tilt at low percents sets up for a grab if they don't DI properly. Down-Smash can also hit him for way more damage then normal.

You can kill him up or down. He dies at the top easier than Snake, DK, and Dedede, but I'm not quite sure what the kill range is for Up-Smash on him. Meteor Smashing him is good, due to his lack of verticle height. This is assuming you get him to a reasonable percent.

His whole book of Grab tricks are severely ruined by Nana being at your side. With one Climber he can chaingrab you better than you can chaingrab him by release grabs. He can air release you into a Forward-Air, or a Side B. With Nana at your side, he loses the ability to chaingrab effectivly, and he can be hit out of Side-B on the way down. There's also the chance that Bowser grabs the wrong one (A good Bowser shouldn't suicide with Nana if they pay attention. Have you seen Nana's DI?) If it happens, Popo can get to Bowser and punish before he even hits the ground. Nana can punish Bowser out of his Side-B, only if Bowser lands by Nana.

It's 8-2 in the Ice Climber's favor. Bowser has way too much going against him.
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Bowser can turtle with his tilts and jabs all day. The range on these are bigger then you think. Fire breath can be used the same way Ice Climber's Blizzard can, but it has more usability.

The entire match is based upon Bowser avoiding the grab. If he avoids the grab, he'll win. If you grab him, he gets *****.

70-30 max.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Captain Falcon

Ratio-8:2
Quote:
I can see a bunch of ways to contrast Falcon's running speed with Sonic's (call me obsessed). Falcon's slower than Sonic, obviously, so grabbing him is somewhat manageable (on his own if you can predict right, not just compared to Sonic), and using desynched moves for camping will still deal him some damage if he tries to approach from the ground. He does, however, have an easier time than Sonic when it comes to killing a separated Nana, as his Knee, while nerfed, still works well enough if sweetspotted, leaving Popo little time to catch up.

However, Falcon still holds very little against the ICs, despite the aforementioned advantage in gimping Nana. Many of his moves, while powerful against the lightweight ICs, are laggy enough that they are easy to prepare for and punish with a CG. Also, Falcon's lack of priority leaves him few options for approaching. Desynch-camping will deal damage if he approaches on the ground, and his aerial moves are easy to see coming. Falcon falls somewhat fast, so he can be comboed effectively, and his recovery is sub-par, leaving the ICs room to edgehog/guard him if they can get him off the stage.
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Falcon can do a few things. He runs fast and has a good juggling game. N-air is one of his key approaches, and can split the Climbers. His jab is also good. He can edgeguard pretty well as far as I know through Up-Airs, B-Airs, and aerial Falcon Kicks.

Up-Tilt and Down-Tilt are also kind of safe to use when properly spaced. Up-Tilt can hit you out of Squall Hammer. D-air to Knee still works, and will at least separate the Climbers.

Falcon has kill moves. However, most of these are unreliable. All his Smashes are slow, with enough end lag to punish them. The knee needs to be sweetspotted and has little range. Falcon Punch is extremely telegraphed, and can easily destroy Nana when separated.

Falcon doesn't have much priority in his attacks. This and his general lack of range make it a bit eaiser to grab him, and he can be chaingrabbed pretty eaisly (SoPo can Down Throw Falcon up to at least 70% due to his high falling speed.)

Falcon is deceptively hard to kill off the top due to his weight and falling speed. Killing him on the sides on smaller stages may work better. He has a decent recovery.

Juggling him shouldn't be much of a problem. Squall Hammer sets up well. Blizzard ***** his approaches and does major damage.
best stage to use:FD
best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)

Charizard

Ratio-55:45
Quote:
He moves quickly along the ground (while dashing) and is slow in the air.

Charizard has nice range on his Tilts and Jab. Down Tilt and a tippered Forward Tilt can be used to kill at higher percents. And Charizard's Smashes are powerful, but slow, with the exception of Up-Smash.

Charizard's F-Air has an odd hitbox. From far away it doesn't make you flinch, but up close it has good knockback. Back Air hits twice when sweetspotted, but lacks range. It's pretty strong. And he has a spike in his D-Air, but it's slow. Up-Air is fast with range.

He's one of the few characters that can glide, but he moves very slowly when he does.

Charizard can edgeguard pretty well with F-Air, B-Air, and even Fly Attack. Flamethrower is used by the edge too.

Charizards love to use Rock Smash. Has crazy knockback when sweetspotted, can do about 45 damage if the entire attack connects, and it ***** shields. It can also split the Climbers.

Fly Attack has Super Armor, and is a multihit move. It's possible to DI before the last hit connects, but it can split them easily, and the last hit can KO.

Charizard has awesome grab range and good throws, but doesn't have any quick throws. This severely hurts his grab game when Nana's around

Knowing the range of his attacks helps in this matchup. I think you should fight him like you would Bowser. Grabbing him shouldn't be too difficult I think. He's big, so Forward throw chains shouldn't be difficult. And hitting him with Blizzards/Squalls, and juggling shouldn't be hard either.
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Charizard has many ways to fight IC's. He can flamethrower wall just as well as IC's can blizzard wall. Not only does this prevent IC grabs but it also nullifies approaches for them. So besides a blizzard/flamethrower camping game, Charizard does have many things he can do to beat out the IC's grab game.

Rock smash is big punishment for nana since her shield is unreliable, which makes for easy separation and high damage. Camping with bairs, flamethrower, and rock smash is a pretty good defense IMO. Charizard's dtilt and ftilt outrange IC's COMPLETELY, though they do have a priority advantage sometimes because of hammers.

Guys, just watch out for Charizard's dtilt because that will nick you guys a lot when you try to approach.

Charizard's grab range is way better, but IMO his grabs aren't necessarily fast enough so IC's can probably jab or c-stick him when they get grabbed so it's all good.

Anyway, the main thing charizard has in this matchup is a solid defensive game that can equal the defensive game of the ic's. Both have ways to nullify approaches, and both have a limited number of approaches because of that. Charizard has plenty of ways to prevent ic's from simply running in and getting a grab (Unlike Ivy, who is destroyed by grabs because of lack of options.)

Charizard's game is focused around his ranged flamethrower and rock smash. It can defend the approaches from any character. I actually like to consider him a defensive and tactical character, there's way too many dumb Charizards who just throw out hopeful fsmashes and usmashes just waiting to be punished. He certainly has the power, but it's a matter of looking for those opportunities to use them. Other than that, he has to rely on his flames, rock smash, jabs, dtilt, ftilt, bair, and pretty much everything fast. Heck, I still see charizards who use other throws besides uthrow at low % which is a dummy move.

I guess most charizard players out there will be a breeze for you guys since he is hard to master, but take it from someone who previously mained IC's and now mains PT.
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Their flamethrower shorthopped and shorthopped fair make it very hard to approach a charizard normally. Rock smash also makes things harder because it eats so much from your shield. The only weakness that the Ice Climbers can exploit Charizard with is good bair edge guarding and CGing since he is a huge target. Juggling Charizard is another thing to look up to. Blizzard has about the same range as flamethrower and fair so it isn't as good of a spacing tool as it could be. A lot of approaches that IC's have make them Rock Smash food since their bodies are in the range of Rock Smash before most approaches of their's can do anything. This match would depend on who can predict what the best.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Diddy Kong

Ratio-5:5
Quote:
Good IC players will use ice blocks really well to block the bananas and know how to handle them. Plus if diddy gets grabbed its all over. It's a totally momentum based matchup, if one makes a mistake then he gets punished for a pretty long time. Dash attack separates them both, and diddy's throws are pretty fast and separates them as well. Ice climbers do have a glide toss as well but its length is kinda poor but it still has its usefulness. I hate this matchup... alot. Diddy just has to really fish for opportunities with the nanerz and the IC's really need that grab.
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Against IC Diddy's bananas can be both an asset and a pain. Because there are two of you, it may be harder for him to banana slide you. On the downside, If a banana is thrown at you and hits you, it can mess up your synched or desynched game play.
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As far as the stage goes, I would be wary of FD because there's nothing to mess up banana combos. If you slip on a banana at Battlefield, half the time it'll end up on a platform above you, and not many Diddy's can continue the "combo" from here. CGing on a Battlefield platform is something you may want to practice...
Best stage to use:Battlefield or other stages with many platforms
Best throw to use:d-throw/b-throw(possibly stationary on a platform)
Donkey Kong

Ratio-6:4
Quote:
Donkey Kong is very strong, heavy, and deceptively fast. His biggest advantage in this matchup is his range.

A good DK can make it difficult to get inside. His Forward-Tilt has really good range. His Down-Tilt has more use in this matchup because it has little less range, for more speed, quicker cooldown, and a chance of causing tripping, which isn't good. Up-Tilt is fast, and covers above and behind him. It's a good setup move, that beats out anything we throw from above.

His Smashes are powerful, but are situational in this matchup. Down-Smash can be used out of a Jab-Cancel. It covers both sides of him as well as above him. If he misses or if it's powershielded, the end lag is enough where he can get grabbed.

Up-Smash also kills early, but you have to be directly above him in order to get hit. There's also ususally a better option than Up-Smash if the Climbers are directly above DK.

Forward Smash will be one of the main used kill moves. It's his slowest smash, but it has range, and is strong. Plus the hitbox stays out for a while if it connects with anything (A single Climber or shield.) making it easy to run into (especially Nana.)

DK will try to force the action into the air. While his ground game is good, it's not enough to keep him from getting grabbed. His air game isn't the best, but it's enough to beat out the Climbers.

DK has many ways to do this. Up-Tilt is one of the ways. His most famous one is probably the Down-B. It has deceptive range, set knockback, and deals good damage. It's nearly impossible to punish while on the ground. This move destroys shields, and pushes the Climbers back too far to punish if they are hit in their shield. The best thing about this move, is that it forces the Climbers into the air. If it doesn't hit them into the air, they have to get into the air to attack DK.

DK's Up and Back throws are probably fast enough to split the Climbers, though I highly doubt anyone would try that.

If they do grab you, it will be with the Cargo Carry. The lower DK's damage is, the more attacks DK can take before dropping the Solo Climber. At higher percents, a smash may be enough for him to drop the Climbers.

In the air, DK has his B-air. It has awesome range, and can be used as an approach. It can be used twice in on shorthop, so it has little cooldown. It's also pretty fast (frame 7). I've managed to powershieldgrab it before, but I don't know if you can do that if DK spaces well.

Up-Air is very fast (frame 5), can juggle at low percents, and can kill at high percents. It also has high priority.

If DK is facing forward while in the air, expect him to airdodge or N-Air. F-Air is too laggy to use on a grounded opponent most of the time.

His edgeguard game is probably good. His B-Air can serve as a wall of pain at low percents, and has the range to hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. His Tilts can also hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Also, DK has 3 spikes (D-Air. F-Air, Side-B.)

DK is hard to edgeguard for most characters. He has a linear recovery, but his Up-B has invincibility frames on the startup, and can do a lot of damage if you don't DI out of it. It last a long time, making it difficult to edgehog him. They can cancel their landing lag of their Up-B by hovering close to the ground, so they won't be recovering high.

DK's Giant Punch (Neutral B,) is probably his best kill move. It has insane range, with low cooldown, making it difficult to punish. When it's fully charged, it is a great damage builder at low percents, with the ability to kill at high percents. If DK winds up his punch 9 times, it will have more knockback than a fully charged punch. Watch out for reverse Giant Punches.

It doesn't take much for DK to take out Nana if the Climbers become separated, and he can do fairly well against a Solo Climber.

DK's moveset becomes severly limited because his moves are either too laggy and/or situational. He's also a huge target, so he has trouble getting by blizzard walls. Squall Hammer works well to build great damage and set up juggling opportunities. He can easily hit you out of Squall Hammer so be smart about it. One use of Squall Hammer is when he uses Down-B, you can Squall out of a short hop. Juggling him with Up-Air is no problem, due to his size. He also vulnerable from under.

Like FrozenPopo said, you don't really need the chaingrabs, but if you do manage to grab him, then the Forward Throw chaingrabs the best way to go. He's a big targets, so he leaves a bit of room for error.

The best way to kill him is to send him downwards. Spiking him works well because of his lack of vertical height in his jumps. Killing him upwards is your next best chance, because his horizontal recovery gains a lot of distance.

One stage you definitely want to avoid against DK is Brinstar. That is easily DK's strongest stage and one of the Ice Climber's worst. Platform stages are bad too.
Best stage to use:FD or Yoshis Island(brawl)
Best grab to use:F-throw(possibily buffered)

Falco

Ratio-65:35

Quote:
65:35 IC's
this is a hard matchup for falco, i wouldn't play it if i had the chance to CP a different character. but if you have to, your best chances of winning are just camping with lasers and spacing with IAPs. if you want to win, play like a complete ***! other things to remember include trying to kill nana first if they are seperated, and never try to start a CG or fight the IC up close, especially on the ground. in the air, you have an advantage, however, make sure to DI if you see/predict the shield so that you don't get shield grabbed. taking the fight on top of a platform is also smart as it weakens thir grab game. IAP'ing back and forth between platforms is a pretty good idea. your KO moves are the same as always. also you should remember that the IC's (desynched or not) can grab you out of the phantasm with proper timing so don't mindlessly spam it.
basically, to win this matchup with falco, you HAVE to play extremely smart and make as few mistakes as you can, because 1 grab= 1 stock. camping and IAPs are key.
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His lasers alone completely dismantles your approach. They go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stops squall hammer, and disrupts any desynch attempt. SH phantasm is also a real pain to deal with since the IC's have no move to counter/punish it. Dair spike is devastating and will hit you straight out of your squall hammer if you try to recover with it, and it can even hit you out of the startup of belay.
Quote:

Campy Falcos can be annoying, but they do damage at a really slow rate and have a really hard time KOing ICs, while ICs only need one grab to KO Falco. It doesn't help Falco that pretty much all of his viable KO options can be punished with a grab.

Fox

Ratio-75:25
Quote:
Everyone knows that Fox is very quick. He moves quickly along the ground, and has quick attacks.
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I find his jab to be annoying sometimes, but it's easy to DI out of and has punishable end lag. F-tilt is safe on the block when spaced well and D-tilt probably is too. Up-Tilt is a good juggling move at low percents, and it links into other moves if you don't DI out.

His Smashes are decent. Down- Smash is fast (comes out on frame 5) and hits on both sides at the same time. It's best used to punish a roll, or out of D-Air. Forward-Smash is decent. It's has bad end lag, so it's not safe on the block. Everyone fears the Up-Smash, due to it's power and speed.

His aerials are quick but generally lack range. D-Air is a favored approach among Fox mains. It's multi-hit, which is always a problem and has a good chance of tripping at least one of the Climbers. It's not the best approach in ths matchup because the landing lag is enough where we can put our shield up before the next attack hits. And grabbing us is asking to be punished. F-Air can be annoying because it's split's the Climbers up well. A well placed N-Air can be safe if it lands behind the Ice Climbers shield, but it can be eaisly shieldgrabbed. B-Air has good speed and knockback, but poor range. Up-Air can kill, but not as well as Up-Smash does. I think D-Air beats it.

Fox's blaster can be annoying. It fires at a rapid pace, and doesn't make the enemy flinch. It also shoots Ice Blocks back, and can force an approach. Side-B is a form of recovery, but can be used as a quick get away, and pops the Ice Climbers in the air. The Reflector can reflect Blizzard, but it's not going to do much damage to us. It also can split the Ice Climbers up for a bit, but the low knockback won't help much.

Fox's best option if he wants to grab is B-Throw. It's his quickest throw, and it takes the other Climber more time to get back. A pivot grab to Back-Throw is hard to punish if Fox lands it.

Fox has a way he can gimp us out of our Up-B. If we tether the stage, his fast falling speed will allow him to drop down fast enough to hit Popo before he can grab the ledge. They can drop down and B-Air into the stage or Shine Spike us, which is guaranteed death. I'm not sure what he can do to Side-B (beside Shine Spike it,) but it's probably safer.

Fox is extremely light (5th lightest)and he falls really fast. These two combined attributes make him easy to chaingrab. His lack of safe approaches makes him pretty easy to grab too. His falling speed also makes him easy to juggle at low percents. He can stall with his Reflector on the way down, so be patient when he's falling. If he fast falls, shield and punish. If he airdodges normally, wait out the invincibiltity frames and attack or short hop Up-Air. If he uses the Reflector and has no jumps left, Up-Air should work, or Up-B for the kill.

Fox can be chaingrabbed by Sopo up to a bit over 60 if the throw is staled enough. A SoPo chain accross the stage to F-Smash leaves Fox in a very bad position. If he's below the stage, D-Tilt should send him out too far to recover. You want to force Fox to use Up-B. He has very poor DI after his Up-B is used. His Side-B will be used if he's over the stage. Blizzard beats out Fox's Side-B. Other moves, like Forward-Smash and Down-Smash beat out Side-B too. If he likes to land on the stage with Side-B, the best place to stand is right outside of Side-B's range. If they like to sweetspot the ledge, stand in a range where the edge of Blizzard can reach.

I think this matchup is 6-4 in the Ice Climbers favor, but 7-3 seems to be the general consensus.

Side note: Reflector is faster than our grab. Our standing grab comes out on frame 6, and our dash grab is slower.
Best stage to use:
Best grab to use:f-throw to -b-throw
Game & Watch

Ratio-35:65

Quote:
-Bair ***** hard
Quote:
-Nuff said

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Game and Watch has insane priority on his moves. His aerials can be very annoying. Game and Watch users love to use their Turtle (B-Air) to approach. Not only is it Multi-Hit, but it easily shield pokes, and has a landing hitbox that pops the opponent into the air. Powershielding the first possible hit will help to keep your shield up. Also keep your shield up before the landing hitbox connects. If you get caught in the B-Air, DI out as best as you can. It is possible to escape the hitbox and land before Game and Watch does. This may be common knowledge by now, but I've seen a few people not do anything when they get caught by B-Air, so I think it's worth mentioning.

N-Air is also an annoying attack. It's Multi-Hit, and when fresh does 17 damage. It's also a good juggling move, that can link into other attacks.

The Key (D-Air) is usually used high from above. Game and Watch has the ability to Dive or slow down on command. If they use it from directly above and you feel like attacking, Up-Tilt beats it and Up-Air can beat it or clash with it. This move also has a landing hitbox, so be careful when trying to attack/grab him right out of his landing lag.

Up-Air can be hard to deal with. It has an invisible hitbox that pushes opponents upward, and is really good for replenishing his moves. The Ice Climbers are susceptible to this due to their floaty nature, and their slow horizontal speed. You do not want to be above Game and Watch when you are in free fall.

On the ground he has many powerful attacks. Most of which have crazy Inturrupted as Soon as frames. His Jab can be DI'd out of pretty eaisly, and can hit from behind if you are standing right next to him. F-Tilt is rarely used, but has decent knockback and is a decent spacing tool. Up-Tilt is situational, but can juggle at low percents, and can set up for other moves. D-Tilt is a better spacing tool than F-Tilt, comes out on Frame 6, and has no coooldown frames, so they can use any move they want right after. It's a good move for stoping approaches, as it has a pretty big hitbox.

All of his smashes have Inturrupted as Soon as frames. All of his smashes are also not that quick, and can be blocked on reaction. They're also absurdly powerful, and have the ability to kill around 100. Up-Smash has ridiculous priority and is Game and Watch's strongest smash attack. Forward-Smash has a lingering hitbox. You can still get hit by the Flame when it's out. You can get hit by the stick also (extremely rare) and has good knockback too. D-Smash will probably be his best move for killing. It hits on both sides simultaneously, so rolling behind him is never a good idea. It has 2 separate hitboxes. The sweetspot will send you upwards, and can kill very early. The non-sweetspot is also powerful, and sends you at a odd angle. When separated, getting hit by the non-sweetspot will make it extremely difficult to recover. Due to the hitboxes, this has the ability to split the Climbers up as well.

His specials are situational. Chef (Neutral-B) has the ability to semi-spike when it connects up close, and is a decent zoning tool due to the random trajectories of the food. Side-B is also used rarely due to it's lack of speed, and randomness. All the numbers have different effects and uses. The Bucket (Down-B) probably won't be used in this matchup. While it is possible to bucket Blizzard, they have to wait until after 100 before they can kill with it. By then it's pretty useless. Also it's extremely punishable when the Climbers are dysynched.

Up-B is and awesome move. It allows Game and Watch to get out of many situations. He has invinciblity frames on his Up-B, and can attack out of it. The sides of Up-B can launch you in the air on startup if you are right next to him or in the air. If he does an attack out of his Up-B before the parachute appears, he will automatically fastfall, with the attack, which can allow for a quick attack. If he uses his Up-B on the Ground, he still has the ability to use his second jump.

Due to Game and Watch's recovery, he can come off the stage to gimp us if he wants. All of his aerials can knock us out of Side-B. His Up-B can be used as a finisher off stage as well. He can also wait on the stage and use Chef/Down-Tilt to knock us back off the stage. If you Up-B, be careful of him dropping down to attack you.

Game and Watch can't afford to grab us because all of his throws are slow. This ruins his techcase game, but killing for him isn't really that big a of problem due to his arsenal of powerful attacks.

Game and Watch can easily make Nana a non-factor once separated. Game and Watch does pretty well against SoPo. Getting grabbed isn't a good thing when SoPo. Down-Throw leads to a tech chase. It's possible to tech his Down-Throw. Up-Throw leads to Up-Air. If you can avoid getting hit by his smashes or grabbed, he may have trouble finishing you.

The one move we have that outprioritizes Game and Watch is Blizzard. It also outranges anything Game and Watch can do. Trying to force him to approach with Ice Blocks may not work well here, as D-Tilt is good at blocking enemy projectiles. Powershielding is very important in this matchup, as it makes it eaiser to get a grab in or punish him. Juggling also works decently, as he can't really D-Air through our attacks.

The best way to kill him is up I think. Game and Watch has a technique called Bucket Braking, which allows him to stop his aerial momentum, and survive for longer. Killing him off the top makes it more difficult for him to Bucket Brake. You can spike him off the edge too, but his Up-B will usually get him back to the stage. Chaingrabbing him shouldn't be too difficult.

I believe it is the stages that make this matchup even more difficult then it should be. Game and Watch can platform camp you all day, and can use the platforms to their advantage more than we can. Stages with ledges also give him a humongous advantage, because his ledge game is very good. Moving stages are good for him due to his mobility and Air Game. Avoid stages like Norfair and Rainbow Cruise. Game and Watch does very well on these stages and the Ice Climbers don't do well on either stage. Flat stages like Final Destination work well here.

Quote:
desynced blizzard outrange anything he can do, so the G&W will try to dair into you. you can have popo or nana short hop and uair if they try. If you can roll behind them during their bair you can get a free grab usually, ALWAYS try to powershield his dair cause that's a free grab son.
Code:

Best Stage to use:FD,or anything with very few platforms
Best grab to use:d-throw to b-throw
Ganondorf

yes, i stole it from teh fox boards(couldnt find anything better.
Ratio - 95:5

Ganondorf is probably armed with the most powerful moves in the game. Almost all of his moves have the ability to kill.

Ganondorf's Jab, Down-Tilt, and Forward-Tilt are suprsingly fast and are usually used as followups to Side-B and kill moves on stage. F-Smash can kill insanely early if you managed to get hit by it (especially Up-Angled,) and Up-Smash has Inturrupted as Soon As frames. It reaches through the platforms on Battlefield so keep that in mind. Down-Smash hits on both sides, but it has terrible startup lag, end lag, and is unsafe on the shield. Ganon's down smash is never used

Up-Tilt is one of the most damaging tilts in the game that can kill insanely early if it connects. It has wind properties that pull you into the attack, ***** shields, and can be a useful edgeguarding tool.

In the air, Ganondorf is known to do his thunderstomp to approach. It deals massive damage, and can lead to followups for more damage. It isn't uncommon to only be hit 4 times and be up to or over 70 damage. N-Air's first hit does more damage and has more knockback, while the second hit has sex-kick properties. F-Air is a powerful move that is still a good finisher. It comes out quick with a somewhat deceptive hitbox. It's massive landing lag makes it a situational move. B-Air and Up-Air are quick and have good range and power.

Ganondorf's specials are quite situational. Warlock Punch is extremely powerful, especially when reversed, but is difficult to land. His Side-B is one of his favored moves, but it's kind of limited in this matchup with two Climbers present. He can't techchase without being hit, but he gains Superarmor when he grabs a Climber with this move. Up-B has almost non-existant hitstun and little knockback when it catches a Climber. If he manages to catch a Climber with the other one not present, you can most likely N-Air him upon release. Ganondorf mains are aware of this and won't use Up-B as an offensive attack. The other Climber will hit him out of his attack most of the time. When recovering, he can uppercut you if you are close to the edge, so lookout for that.

Ganondorf's Wizard Foot (Down-B) has many uses. On the ground it can push you off the stage. He can also use it to cancel at the edge with little lag. In the air, it can spike with great power, or kill you off the top at around 100. It also has a landing hitbox.

Ganondorf is pretty good at edgeguarding. All his aerials knock you out of Squall Hammer. Down-B when used in the air can eaisly kill as well. Up-B is probably a better recovery option.

Ganondorf can **** Nana with his powerful moves if the Climbers are seperated.

Ganondorf does ok against SoPo. SoPo can chaingrab him for a while and can knock him off stage. He can knock us out pretty far with any move. His approach is still kind of limited though.

Ganondorf is the slowest character in terms of mobility on average. He also has no projectile. Blizzard stops his approaches and beats everything he has. Desynched Ice Blocks can force an approach while alternating Blizzards give him trouble up close. Squall Hammer racks up the damage. Popping him in the air for juggling works very well at low percents. He doesn't have a great recovery, so killing him at the sides works well. Spiking him also works pretty well. Getting the grab shouldn't be too difficult and chaingrabing him shouldn't be too bad either. Rising B-Air out-spaces him and should be able to hit him.

Delfino is most likely their best stage. With the water for easy spiking, and the Side-B to drag you into the water, easier Gannoncides (though he can eaisly grab the wrong Climber ) and platforms that make it easier to attack though, it is not a stage to take him lightly. Norfair is another stage to consider banning. Stages that have uneven terrain like Lylat makes it more difficult for him to perform his attacks smoothly. Flat stages like Final Destination make it extremely easy to limit him.

I think it's 95-5 in our favor. Ganondorf has power, but will struggle to get attacks in.

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Ike

Ratio - 4:6

This matchup may not be as easy as people think it is.

Ike has Jab that is quicker than ours (frame 3) and the first 2 hits can link into another Jab chain. Jab can knock you off the stage at high percents.

Ike has a sword. A giant one. With lots of priority, power, and range.

His tilts are all very powerful. F-Tilt may be one of Ike's more reliable kill moves. It's not fast, but it has awesome range. His Up-Tilt beat out everything we have from above, and has kill potential. I think this move may be fairly situational. Down-Tilt is situational, due to it's lack of speed and massive end lag. It has the ability to spike for an edgeguard as well.

All his smashes are powerful. F-Smash his extremely powerful with the ability to kill at around 60, maybe even lower. It has good range also. Down-Smash hits on both sides, but it isn't quick and is punishable. You won't see this move being used much if at all. Up-Smash swings in an arc, and hits in front, over, and behind him. It has a lot of range, and is hard to avoid when trying to land.

Ike will probably be approaching from the air. N-Air hits around him with very little landing lag. Ike can link this into a Jab, and N-Air (and all his other aerials,) have enough shield knockback (unless powershielded) to hit you out of range for a counterattack. F-Air is a commonly used approach. It has the most range out of any F-Air in the game. It hits hard and can KO when fresh. It also has either little landing lag or Interrupted as Soon as Frames upon landing (not sure which,) so punishing it's end lag (especially with a grab) isn't that easy. It aslo hits under him slightly. D-Air spikes when sweetspoted. When not sweetspoted it sends you into the air. B-Air is Ike's fastest aerial. It can be used in a shorthop with the move ending before landing. It comes out on frame 6 . Up-Air can kill and stays out for a while. This move can also be difficult to avoid from above.

His Neutral-B (Eruption) is one of the most powerful moves in the game when it's almost fully charged. It has deceptive range and Super Armor upon release I think. An uncharged Eruption can kill around 100. It has the ability to spike, but the massive end lag and the rare chances of it happening don't make the spike useful. His Side-B (Quick Draw) isn't save on the shield and is very punishable when it just misses the opponent. If he misses his opponent completely, he can do any action right after. Up-B (Aether) has Super Armor frames when Ike is on the way up. It hits multiple times and also spikes. Ike's Counter is one of the strongest counters in the game. It's pretty useless though, as it takes too long to activate, and missing a counter means extreme punishment.

Ike ***** Nana when the Ice Climbers get separated.

Ike can edgeguard us pretty easily. Every single move of his can hit us out of Squall Hammer (Jab included.) Reverse Aether Dragging will allow him to spike with Aether, while grabbing the ledge. He can use Down-Tilt to spike us if we are close to or hanging on the edge.

Ike has 2 recovery options. He can either Quick Draw, or use Aether. Most Ike users will almost never use Quick Draw. All it takes for them to fall is for you to get in the way of the attack. It also doesn't sweetspot the ledge, which can be a problem for them on some stages. They will use Aether to come back, usually at the lowest point possible so they can grab the edge and hit you at the same time.

If Ike grabs you, they will pummel to knock the other Climber away. Forward Throw is fast and will knock into the other Climber. Back throw may also be used, as it moves Ike in the direction he's throwing (away from you.)

Ice Blocks force Ike to approach due to his lack of projectile. Blizzard gives Ike problems, and Desynched Blizzards makes it difficult to approach. Squall Hammer racks up damage well on him also for damage and juggling him. Up-Airs should work well due to his weight and falling speed. He also has limited options when he's above us. You should be able to react to what he does when he's landing and punish accordingly. He's heavy, so chaingrabbing him shouldn't be that difficult.


Powershielding is extremely important if you want to grab/punish him. Most of his moves can be blocked on reaction, but if it's normal shielded the attack will knock you back too far to punish him.

Taking Ike to a stage with platforms like Battlefield may be a bad idea, as he can attack through the platforms easily. Delfino is a bad stage for use due to the water and platforms. Final Destination is the best stage to fight him on.

This is probably 45-55 in Ice Climbers' favor.

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Ivysaur

Ratio - 55:45

his razor blades can be annoying to ice block canceling. plus his smashes/tilts have range/multihit properties respectively. his usmash and uair have kill potential like NOBODY'S business. on the other hand, his bullet seed is pretty much useless if it misses due to end lag, making a grab easy. his recovery is.. well... its crap. the guy has a tether that can be edge hogged easily. his aerials can help him space the ICs (especially bair), but blizzard can out reach pretty much anything he has (aside from razor leaf). his medium weight means cgs are easy to time, yet he can be sent flying pretty easily.

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Usmash kills at like 40%. His grab is decent. Ftilt and Bullet Seed are good damage builders. His jab is a good move to get you off him. Besides these strong points, though, he doesn't really have much. I prefer chaining dthrows (easier than fthrows to time) to the ledge for a spike. His recover isn't good from under the stage, so this should get you some early kills.

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Ice Climbers

(lol, Dittos)- 5:5
Against someone who you can't exploit any strongpoint and weakpoint, it becomes very much a brawl of mindgames. Your greatest strengths are nulled, and your biggest weaknesses forgiven. There's little advice I can give, so here goes! Exploiting the near-meaningless recovery, downthrows by ledge into edgehog is the way to go. But to get there you're going to have to fight safe as you can without spamming blizzard, since its gonna be punished. Desynced SH blizzards THROUGH the opponent and hit them....D.Smashes every chance can't go wrong, but UpTilts will work good to defend against SH attacks and can also combo into upairs and a possible belay, yourself. grabbing is good against ICs, since its a miracle if their litle nubs called apendages can actually hit you anyway...and Projectiling with IBs are good, but better left as aerial pre-offenses. ICs tends to break out of combos well with his smaller size, average weight, and blizzards...so try to start early with UpAirs and finish him with what seems the most reliable. As a great offense a uair into a falling B.air is mighty sexy. It can turn around their anti-air movement(even though you're not facing them) and them snipe them with your hammers last minute.
Ditto matches donnot prove who is better, so don't be discouraged if you lose. It only means today they were better fighting IC vs. IC. What point is made in beating a character who you cannot stress IC's real advantages and disadvantages against? The very characteristics that makes them Ice Climbers?...I'll tell you what. Nothing...its like ICs are no longer ICs, but a souless vessle trapped in a psychological game of rock-paper-sciccors floating into the corners of the universe just waiting to implode-THATS WHAT!*#@!! >:O.........well, maybe not. But I thought it sounded cool.
Jigglypuff

Ratio - 55:45

Jigglypuff is pretty terrible on the ground. Its Jab comes out on frame 5 in has little range. It can be used to interrupt an attack. F-Tilt is pretty good speed. It comes out on frame 7, and has D-Tilt comes out on frame 10. It's pretty useless, as it doesn't set up for anything. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 11, and has Interrupted as Soon as Frames. It's a decent set up move most of the time.

Jigglypuff's smashes are slow enough that you can react to them. Down-Smash is it's fastest smash. The attack comes out on frame 14, and sends us out at a downward angle. When separated or as Sopo, this essentially means death if you are close to the edge and get hit by this. Up-Smash comes out on Frame 17. It has decent priority as it beats D-Air. Watch out for the boost smash. It slides surprisingly far, and it moves fast. F-Smash is its most powerful smash attack. It hits on Frame 16 and has good killing power.

Jiggypuff's Dash-Attack is worth mentioning. It comes out on frame 4, and can be used as a surprise kill move. In the Ice Climber's case, it will generally send us off stage and set up for a gimp kill.

Of course Jigglypuff will be in the air for almost the entire match. It's Jigglypuff's greatest strength and one of our weaknesses. Jigglypuff is the 2nd fastest character in the air. Its aerial acceleration is also really good, allowing it to weave in and out while attacking.

N-Air is a good move to knock us away. It has a deceiving hitbox as it reaches out pretty far in front, and its entire body acts as a hitbox. F-Air is disjointed and has good range. It comes out on frame 8, and is an excellent gimping tool. It also has kill power when unstated at higher percents. B-Air is weaker than F-Air, but it works the same as F-Air essentially. It can work as a wall of pain offstage. It can be used to approach on stage. It's quicker than F-Air and has less cooldown, so with good spacing it can link into itself numerous times. It also has less range. D-Air is a multi-hit move, that can split up the Climbers. It can cause tripping, and can still set up for a Rest attack or other moves. Up-Air juggles pretty well.

Jigglypuff's Rollout attack (Neutral B) has lot of knockback when charged. It moves fast and can kill early. Rollout is avoidable by jumping. Blizzard will always beat it out, so using a Blizzard wall protects you from Rollout. Side-B (Pound) has a lot of priority and lingers for long time. It pops the Climbers into the air. It also ***** shields (takes out half). Up-B (Sing) puts opponents to sleep. It has a small radius and only works when your in range on the ground. It can be canceled at the edge. It's useless move as it leaves it open to punishment.

Down-B (Rest) got nerfed in Melee, but still has its uses. It's Jiggypuff's quickest attack (frame 2.) It's still powerful (not nearly as powerful as N64/Melee though.) If you somehow manage to survive, a flower is left on your head, which does even more damage. It can kill around 70 or higher, and can be canceled by water. Rest also has invincibility frames for a little over half a second, and good Jigglpuff mains can interrupt an attack simply by resting you while you are attacking. Jigglypuff is left vulnerable for 3 seconds after initiating the attack, so if they whiff, it equals punishment. Also there's 2 Climbers, so the possibility of punishing is possible.

Jigglypuff has a good grab game, which is completely nullified by Nana standing by your side.

Offstage is a nightmare for the Ice Climbers in this matchup. It is most important to keep Nana by you. Jigglypuff ***** us offstage and it's too easy to Wall of Pain Nana. With Nana gone it makes it more difficult to dispose of Jigglypuff and get back onto the stage.

Jigglypuff generally lacks range. Our attacks have more range and priority, so it has to work around our attacks and avoid them as best as it can while dealing damage. Blizzard beats and outranges everything it can do. Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game, so it shouldn't take much to get it into kill percent.

Grabbing Jigglypuff is extremely difficult, and you will lose if you try to spam grabs. If you do manage to get the grab, F-Throw works pretty well. For B-Throw and D-Throw's, the timing has to be tight or else you will mess up. You have to grab sooner than with the other lightweights.

Jigglypuff has a lot of stage advantages on us. Stages with low celings and areas where they can attack from below help them (Brinstar, Delfino, Halberd.) Stages like Japes and Delfino have water that can cancel their Rest. Jigglypuff doesn't die from the water easily on that stage and can eaisly gimp the Ice Climbers here. Frigate and Rainbow Cruise are also bad stages to go to against Jigglypuff. But the stage you should avoid the most is Norfair. With ledges everywhere, it will be hard to attack. Also it can attack from below the platforms easily. Final Destination and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) will work well against Jigglypuff.

This matchup is about even, probably 60-40 in Jigglypuff's advantage. We both have huge advantages and disadvantages against each other. Stage selection may give one character an advantage over the other, and Jigglypuff does better on more stages than the Ice Climbers do.

King Dedede

Ratio-65:35
out of the higher tier characters, this one is probobly the easiest.there are till plentty thing to watch out for, but just space properly with blizzard and sheildgrab and this match is pretty much yours

Kirby

Ratio-6:4
Vulcan Jab can kind of work, but it's generally not worth it. Sure it's faster than any of our moves, and it hits enough to split us up, but it is possible to shield grab Kirby before the fury of hit come. If they try to use it as a wall, it's possible to running Powershield-Grab it. If we get caught in it, we can DI out and possibly punish. Circle DI or Smash DI can land us behind Kirby, where his jab doesn't cover him well at all.

Kirby's Tilts all come out quickly. F-Tilt lacks range and isn't safe on the shield. D-Tilt has deceptive range and has a high chance of tripping, and has Inturruped as Soon as Frames. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 4 on the ground. It has good priority and works as a good juggling move at low percents, or a setup move at higher percents.

Kirby's feet are disjointed, so he sends his opponents at different trajectories if he connects with his toes with some attacks. Kirby's F-Smash one of his most reliable kill moves. It has decent speed and a lot of knockback when sweetspoted. The end of the hitbox sends the opponent upwards. Up-Smash has decent knockback and has a weak hitbox behind it. Down-Smash sends opponents outward at the tip, and Upward from closer in. It's his quickest smash.

Dash Attack can be annoying to deal with sometimes. It hits 6 times, with the last hit popping you into the air. It can be DI out of, and is punishable if it misses or if all the hits are blocked.

Kirby will be playing this matchup in the air most of the time though. His aerials generally lack range. His N-Air autocancel's well, and can be used as a get off me move. F-Air is a multi-hit move that isn't used that much from what I've seen. It doesn't have the range or knockback that B-Air has. Up-Air is a good juggling move that has good reach above him. His D-Air can be used on the stage to split the Climbers up. It's a multi-hit move, that has a ground hitbox upon landing.

B-Air is the aerial you'll see the most. It has the most range and it's fast. It also has good knockback, with KO potential when fresh at high percents. This attack stays out for a long time and can be difficult to punish when perfectly spaced, due to it's low end lag.

His Neutral-B (Swallow) has many uses. He can copy an opponent's B move. In this case our Ice Block, which won't lead to much. He can swallow one Climber and spit them back out into the other one to deal damage to them. At the edge, he can swallow one and shoot them under the stage or Swallowcide. Side-B has huge knockback and is used more in the air. Kirby's Up-B (Final Cutter) can hit up to 3 times up close and the Shockwave can cut through Blizzard. Stone makes Kirby invunrable to attacks for a short time. This move has enough power to KO at high percents. It has a hitbox to the sides when used on the ground.

If Kirby tries to grab us, they will most likely Up-Throw. Up-Throw is nearly instant and can be harder to punish if there is a platform above. You can hit Kirby while he's landing.

Kirby can edgeguard us eaisly. His B-Air also serves as a Wall of Pain. Kirby can D-Air to Footstool if you try to recover from below.

Kirby doesn't have much of an approach, and Blizzard beats out anything up close except Final Cutter and Stone. His ground game becomes limited and they will mainly try to space us with B-Air's with a few other attacks mixed in.

I think it's 60-40 in our favor, but they can counterpick us pretty easily. They beat us on stages like Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, and Brinstar, but we beat them on most neutrals.
Link

Ratio-55:45

Link's sword and projectiles give him a lot of range.

Link's Jab has many uses. He can cancel his Jab into almost any attack (another Jab, Up-B, D-Air.) Link's Jab can be cancelled into a kill move if they choose. The third hit has decent knockback.

Link's Tilts are generally slow. F-Tilt is Link's slowest tilt. It has a hitbox that reaches above him and in front of him, with enough knockback to kill at high percents. Down-Tilt sweeps directly in front of him. It pops the opponent into the air, with decent knockback. Link's Down-Tilt also has the ability to spike.

Link's Up-Tilt is pretty fast. He swings his sword in an arch, which covers around him and above him. It can kill at higher percents.

Link's Down-Smash serves as a decent kill move. It comes out fast and has good knockback. It hits on both sides, and can be directly linked from a Jab. Up-Smash has the same range as Up-Tilt and is slightly slower. He swings 3 times, with the last hit being the strongest. Up-Smash doesn't have that much knockback, and Link can be interrupted between the swings. His boost smash can slide pretty far.

Forward-Smash is his slowest smash. Link can swing his sword twice, with the second hit being stronger than the first. Link lunges when he swings, giving him more range on his F-Smash than his F-Tilt.

Link's Dash Attack it pops you into the air. It probably won't be used much due to its end lag.

Link's N-Air is a sex kick that has a lot of knockback at the beginning of the move. N-Air can be used to interrupt a string of attacks. It doesn't have a lot of range. F-Air hits twice, with the second hit being stronger than the first. The second hit is strong enough to kill. B-Air is their fastest aerial. B-Air hits twice, and is used as a retreating aerial, or can be used to link into another move. Some players like to do retreating B-Air's to Quick Drawn Arrows. N-Air, F-Air, and B-Air all have low landing lag, making it easier for him to follow up into another move or defend.

Link's Up-Air reaches directly above him with a lot of range and stays out for a long time. It can kill if it hits at the beginning of the move. The weaker hit will knock you right back into the air. Link's moves from under can make landing difficult.

Link's D-Air is his most reliable and possibly strongest kill move. D-Air is even more powerful when combined with fast falling. If he hits someone or bounces off a shield, the second bounce will have weaker knockback. This has a lot of landing lag and is easily punished if it misses.

Link's Clawshot (Z-Air) has insane range, with no landing lag. It can hit twice for 10 damage when fresh. It can be used directly out of an Airdodge and with a Bomb in hand.

Link's projectiles make it easy for him to outcamp us. His Arrows fly at a high speed and fly faster and farther when charged. They can be Quick Drawn upon landing. The arrows aren't used much because it leaves them in one spot for too long. His Boomerang has many uses. It's not strong when thrown directly, but the wind effect has many uses. It can bring the opponent closer to Link, or push them away. It can also gimp recoveries.

The most dangerous projectiles are his Bombs. Link can pull up to 2 out at a time. A bomb can seperate the Climbers, and can help him escape when he is being chaingrabbed. These Bombs can be thrown or dropped anywhere and can be used against him also. The Bombs explode over time.

Link's Spin attack on the ground can be charged. The longer he charges, the stronger it is. It has moderate knockback when uncharged, but when charged it can kill. If you don't get hit by the initial hit, it second hit isn't nearly as strong. If the attack is Powershielded, you can attack him before he finishes spinning.

Link can edgeguard us pretty well with his attacks. He can D-Air offstage if we go near the ledge, so watch out for that. He can also use his Boomerang to blow us away from the edge.

Link has the worst non-tether recovery in the game. A Down-Tilt will send him out too far to recover if done by the edge. He can clawshot instantly to grab the edge if he sees this coming. If he recovers from below, Ice Blocks can disrupt his recovery. If he recovers from above, try to hit him back off the edge.

The main challenge in this matchup is dealing with Bombs. You can do this by catching a Bomb if he throws one at you. Doing this will only allow Link to pull out only one Bomb if you have one in your hand.

You can probably juggle him well, but Bombs can interrupt that. Being Desynched a lot in this matchup is asking to get separated.

A flat stage like Final Destination may help you get a few grabs on Link, because his mobility isn't great and there is little place to run. Stages with platforms like Battlefield and stages that move help him camp with Bombs better. Norfair is the worst place to fight Link because it's probably his best stage and one of our worst.

Link is heavy, so hobbling him is probably easiest. Killing him off the sides is your best bet because if you send him far enough, he may not make it back.

This is 55:45 in our favor. It's a frustrating matchup on both ends. Link outranges us and outcamps us.

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Lucario

Ratio-45:55

his aura gives him some deceptive range. he can CG us for a little while with his side b due to it hurting the other climber when it goes off. his dair is super effective at splitting us up. as far as aura sphere is concerned, an ice block will finish it up nicely. he can do double team to catch you off guard, but the end lag means if he screws up its an easy CG. additionally he has a crap recovery, but an awesome getup attack. he's pretty dangerous if he lands on the ledge or the stage so whether you want to edge guard him when he's pretty close is up to the player. if he's far away then he's freaking easy to edge hog, but most good lucarios can dominate the field pretty well.
Cgs are a good way to wrack up damage on him, but on slip up and you just made a ****ing beast. as i already said his aura has deceptively long reach and you will generally have to coem to lucario so its on his terms. ice block camping works against you in the long run as every hit on him just makes him that much strong and that much easier for him to kill you. i say its in lucarios favor simply because of his aura, his ability to easily separate us, and that if you aren't perfect with your CGs he will **** you.

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Lucas

Ratio-65:35
Pk fire Is easy to block by an ice block not THAT big of a problem for IC's
Pk thunder1 is a **** atleast Offstage it is If it hits you offstage your IC's will desynch and when your Double jump is already used your Up b will not work correctly anymore and your ic's will both do that little hop and fall to their death
Pkthunder2 Just shield Nuff said. but when it hits you you will get some damage
Pk freeze Doesnt hit me that much but when it does it will be irritating mostly when i play lucas and hit with pk freeze i will use Nair and that ***** :o
His jabs are a great GTFO move and when used right the ice climbers cant grab
his side tilt is pretty fast but its range is crap well.. decent its doesnt desynch the ic's on low damage only at 120%+
his down tilt could let you trip wich will mostly be used to smash you away so thats a good move imo
His uptilt is pretty good it can be comboed with a downthrow up to 15% but after that it is good to do when someones in the air
Side smash: its fast and strong and it can be great in some situations it kills pretty fast even faster with tipper
Down smash doesnt hit that frequently the first hit is a great KO move the second only kills at high percentage REALLY high and the third hits knockback is just crap but the damage equalizes that
Upsmash is EPIC when it hits but it doesnt hit that much cause of the lag that comes along with that move if it misses IC's will grab and mostly he is screwed
Nair Its a SWEET move i love it it is nice to do Shorthopped and it can seperate the ice climbers but it doesnt hit that much and its range is crap so IC's will other shieldgrab or just smash
Fair A great move to get some range and move the IC's away
Uair hmmm it isnt used that well against ic's imo cause its easy to see coming and theres always an airdodge only with PKfreeze it will 100% hit
Bair The spike is epic and the none spike part is a great gtfo move and its good for spacing it doesnt seperate the ice climbers but it DOES desynch them
Dair is a good move but the landing lag is just too irritating i got killed by that little lag soo many times
And now the most irritating thing Lucas is one of the harder characters to chaingrab it is possible but when you play online you must know your non grab game cause the lag will backstab you

Lain said:

His pkfire can get annoying
Usmash ***** recovering climbers.
Nair is really gay and hard to effectively punish sometimes when they're inside you.

BUT

I used to think IC cg on the earthbounders was weird. bu try it out in training mode, it's kind of slow. akin to bthrowing and dthrowing a heavy character, but not quite. i can do it 100% of the time now. it's not that weird.

powershielding pkfire and running in is quite effective.

ice blocks can gimp his recovery

you can desync to put nana on the edge, and then if they go for the stage you make popo jump on for a renewed invincible thing, or if they go for the stage you shield the upb and then proceed to cg from there

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Luigi

Ratio-65:35

His air moves are irritating sometimes but not a big problem when your on the ground and know how to dodge
his smashes are decent
his jab combo is a good GTFO move
his grabs are well.. not so good actually his up b is epic (only when it does that super punch thing)
Side b is also great (when your lucky)
down b is a great recovery
By the way his smashes are way better than decent, because his f-smash kills kills at like 70%+ if it hits. T_T Also, jab combo -> Super Jump Punch is another thing you have to worry about -- well, for me, but DI'ing out of the jab is the key not to get hit when it connects. For his aerials, they're small ranged, but quick such as his n-air that can come out so fast after he gets hit near you; in other words, if he has a small amount of damage and you use u-air on him, he can hit you with his n-air since the hit didn't have much knockback.

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Mario

Ratio-6:4

HeroMystic said:

First of all I'll say the Ice Climbers is a huge pain if they know what they're doing, but really the only advantage they really have is that killer grab game. Otherwise, Mario can deal with the rest of what the Ice Climbers got.

Bobson laid it out nicely. We Mario's first reaction always is to separate the ice climbers. D-air does this the easiest, but a U-tilt lock to D-air or U-air does the job just fine too.

Keeping the ice climbers away from each other is a tedious but worthwhile task for Mario. His aerials are quick enough to switch back and forth between the two, and Nana is super-easy to gimp off-stage.

And our grabs are not useless even if Nana is around. It's not hard to grab and then U-throw or D-throw. The motion only takes about a half-second, and it's enough to get you separated as well. All it really takes is to land a grab when Nana is stuck trying to keep up with the action.

Someone said that Mario's B-throw is powerful. That's completely false. It's the best throw we got, but it takes 140% to kill at FD, that's without good DI.

FLUDD onstage will be used to kill approaches, mindgames, and FIHL (FLUDD-Induced-Hit-Lag). FIHL causes lag whenever you contest it with an attack that out-prioritize it (which is pretty much everything), and it allows Mario to counterattack with an aerial, D-Smash, or F-smash. Most of all it'll be used to mess up your tech-skill with the Ice climbers.

Fireballs will be used to approach and to help out with spacing, but mainly to approach. It's a bit harder to do since there is -two- characters helping each other out, but it's still worthwhile since the input of Nana takes about a half-second longer. However, you can use your blizzard (I think) or neutral b to stop fireballs.

The main problem Mario will have here is the grab. It's plenty easy to grab a Mario that is not good with spacing. His low range definitely hurts him this match and ICs has some killer grab options, even without the chaingrab in mind. However, this does not break the deal here as pretty much, it's easy to break Nana and Popo away from each other.

The ICs' main objective here is to keep Nana alive and keep the momentum in your favor. Do not let Mario pressure you to the point where he's able to easily kill Nana, because with her gone the advantage automatically shifts to Mario.

Make good use of shieldgrabbing, avoid the D-air, and most of all, don't get gimped. Mario shuts out alot of ICs' options in terms of dsync due to FIHL and is an excellent multitasker compared to other characters, and if Nana is gone and Popo is knocked off, he's probably the easiest character for Mario to gimp in all of his match-ups.

Popo by himself can chaingrab Mario to 60% though, and he can take Mario one-on-one, but he's not much without Nana by his side.

We haven't evaluated the Ice climbers in a long time on the Mario boards, so stuff like FIHL, Up-B Out of Shield, or even using FLUDD on-stage wasn't applied to the discussion. This used to be thought up as a hard match-up for Mario, but now it's pretty much just one that requires plenty of adapation and multi-tasking.

60:40 Ice Climbers.

Click to expand...

Marth

Ratio: 4:6

He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.

F-air if properly spaced beats out all of the IC's attacks except blizzard (and maybe belay?). I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but I'v actually had a Marth, who is stuck in the freeze frames from the blizzard, actually F-air me OUT of it. It does not happen every often, but it can. They can also Dolphin Slash out of it and hit you if they DI towards you then use it.

its in his favor but stopping/edge guarding him is easy. his dancing blade is his best tool in this matchup and he WILL abuse it. you can try shielding it but more than likely some part will shield poke one or both of you. power shielding makes this matchup a lot easier to get grabs. on top of all of this blizzard is our ****** tool. desync'd alting blizzards is just amazing on marth. use ice desync'd ice blocks to force an approach and then just cg his medium weight *** all over the place.


it is important to remember, however, that good marths will have terrific spacing making most of this very hard (see: near impossible) to pull off.


Meta Knight

Ratio-5:5

Quote:
-Ftilt and Dtilt beat out all of your ground attacks.
-All of his aerials will beat out any of yours.
-Don't roll behind him or you'll eat a Dsmash.
-His edge guarding will easily gimp your recovery.
-His speed, mobility, and size will easily allow him to maneuver past your camping setups.
-Blizzard helps stop tornado spam and several of his other approaching methods.
-Uair will beat out all of MK's attacks if he's above you.
-Use squall hammer to change momentum to avoid UpB when he's below you.

This is probably the IC's hardest match-up thus far. He beats you out in the air and ground, his speed and size make him hard to keep out, has good aerial mobility allowing him to space away from grabs, has ridiculous edgeguarding abilities to easily gimp their recovery, and the IC's have no reliable way to stop tornado spamming. Everything about this match-up is simply hard.

Against MK, Your going to be using SH Blizzard alot, as it out prioritizes the Tornado and his glide attacks. Your also going to be abusing your shield alot so it's harder for them to separate you and Nana. Also when there using Tornado, if you can manage a SH Single Blizzard, you can go in for the grab and attempt at a 0-Death. I'll write more about this later.

The MK fight is all about spacing. You can outrange him and forward-B can get through a lot of his attacks, even clashing with the tornado. If he uses tornado you can just sit in your shield and it rarely penetrates it. (may open up a grab opportunity too, as he lands) Use a lot of f-tilts to keep him away and look for grab opportunities since MK is really easy to chaingrab. You can even chaingrab him with a solo climber it seems.just note that actually setting up the grab is the REAL problem

- Ice blocks and blizzards are your BEST FRIEND.
- It helps a lot of you play AS Metaknight to know his about his openings, which he has very few of.
- Capitalize as much as possible if he really does mess up and gives you a grab opportunity.
- Shuttle loop and tornado **** everything, as usual. Except blizzard. (But even if he does tornado into your blizzard, it's not like you have dealt a lot of damage or created a guaranteed follow up.)
- This is an uphill battle up the ***. Solo popo is even worse, nigh impossible IMO.
- His priority is great, and this is still an uphill battle for IC's, but it's not nearly as hard as MK because GW doesn't have the great speed behind his range and priority. This makes it easier to grab him, or punish his mistakes. Watch closely, and know how to space his ranged attacks.

Fsmash>Mach Tornado. It's a reflex thing. On the downside, you can't shorthop fsmash, which limits movement
Quote:
Random blizzards>random nadoes. Powershield to massive chaingrab ftw. His advantage consists in KOing your partner, which MAY ACTUALLY TAKE LONGER THAN IT TAKES FOR YOU TO LAND A GRAB. IC's upair owns airborne MK. Try your best to KO from every grab. Fsmash near the edge KOs from 100%.

Its just trying ur best with ic to outlast the gay stuff mk can dish out (tornado/dair camping) to find an opening to land the death grab.

Only real advice i can give is... never stay in ur shield for too long. You need a full shield to shield tornado (you have to tilt shield so you dont get poked). If its slightly smaller u will get caught in it. If they are in the air do

well placed uairs and dont be afraid to grab them when they try to attack you on the ground because they are just asking for it.

Really fun match up imo because it really is outsmarting and spotting mistakes to punish mk. You will win if you are smarter than the mk and know the match up.

Ness

Ratio-5:5
Quote:
Originally Posted by PKNintendo
This matchup isn't to complicated. We all fear the IC almighty grab, but to what extent? Their puny grab range, that any decent player can outspace them. On the ground, simply yo-yo's can help keep Ness in the clear while the IC approach with the squall. Use simple ground attacks, such as jabs and tilts, since the IC will punish any messups with a grab. PKF should only be used when your SURE you can get away with it.

(alternatively, those skilled with the mighty arts of PK jump and Firebounding, can use those instead)
Punish whiffed smashes with a grab. Make you use Ness dash grab, since Ness will slide when he grabs his prey, just enough time for Nana to be killed with a backthrow (with a dash grab, Popo will barely have enough time to react) He you grab popo, quickly use a backthrow, less you want Nana to attack you. Seriously killing the IC is a piece of cake with backthrow. Popo on his own is relatively light, and Nana has really stupid AI and will DI in the WRONG direction, killing her earrrrrrrrrrly. (75% early!) Once she's gone, deal with the lone Popo, and keep him at bay with an aerial ****. When the time comes, you can backthrow for hs death.

In the air, you can combo with aerials to also keep the IC's at bay. The squall hammer is annoying, but escaping it's wrath and leading into a punish is really a work of art. Anticipate and lead into a PKT2 on a whiffed aerial squall. Once the IC are off the ledge, you can use PK Flash to kill them on getting back on the stage with such a predictable recovery. (If Nana is gone, popo is screwed) or you can go and chase them yourselves and spike them with dair.

*Ness is lucky by that fact that he can't get forward throwed CG. They have to use the other methods.

On the flipside, IC have plenty of tools to kill you. Getting grabbed by a GOOD IC is scary. They the average down throw CG, and can get you to the ledge to attempt to spike you (with Nana) The spike usually isn't strong enough to kill you at 0%, by they will attempt to gimp PKT with an ice block. You are spiked, used your PKT2 ASAP, or you will die. If your they hit you, double jump (you should save it) if not, your screwed. Squall hammer, can stop your ground approaches too. Getting grabbed and rapped by blizzard is not fun either.


IC are indeed a tough opponent, but they are not impossible. 5-5

Ice Blocks are classified as Living projectiles, like Olimar's Pikmin. This should mean that if Ness's PK Missile connects with an Ice Block, the distance traveled is significantly decreased. If Ness is recovering from below the stage, you can even shoot Ice Blocks continuously and force him slowly down. His second jump, even when covered by f-air, is stopped by our b-air. In most cases, we trade hits with it. Ness's recovery fails very very hard against the Ice Climbers.

Beware of his PSI Magnet. Blizzard is considered an energy-based attack, and Ness can absorb it for free healing. Significant healing, considering how much damage Blizzard can do... Blizzard should only be used to intercept Ness's approach, and even then with caution.

Squall's pretty good if you use it from up-close, but using it as an approach is quite punishable by PK Fire - it's a Laser projectile, meaning it goes right through your attack. And we all know what happens when Ness gets a PK Fire in... Worst thing is, he can b-throw Popo while Nana is still tormented by the flames. Ness's b-throw is strong.

Recovery is a bit risky due to PK Thunder, but only if you give Ness time to make it risky. Recover fast - PK Thunder is faster than you'd expect. Squall or Belay can be safer depending on the situation, but usually Squall is the better option. When recovering from below the stage with Squall, watch out for PK Fire. It'll be angled down, meaning in your direction. On-stage, PK Thunder won't see a lot of use since Ice Blocks easily intercept a controlling Ness. Still, be aware that it's there.

Ness's air game is pretty, but beside b-air, there's not much you should be particularily cautious of as long as you're on-stage. F-air and n-air can be shieldgrabbed, d-air is easily prevented with one of your upward-aimed moves. B-air has a good bit of shieldslide when sweetspotted, though. Still, it's telegraphed a fair bit, so a spotdodge to grab will solve it.

Ness's yo-yo is a pain. His charge actually does damage (meaning it's nigh impossible to powershield), and the moves that use it aren't very laggy, while both of them hit on both sides. The d-smash also has a pretty good range. If you see Ness charging his yo-yo, stay out of range and use Squall once the hitbox goes away.

F-smash has loads of start-up lag, and won't be used on a grounded opponent. When recovering, make absolutely sure you land your Squall on-stage. Going into helpless will provoke a f-smash, and it will connect. Ness can also use it during PK Fire, so smash DI away from the pillar ASAP.

His tilts are fine, but we outrange them with our own tilts. Sadly, Ness's f-tilt and u-tilt have godly priority. F-tilt is our best counter, being more ranged, more disjointed and about as fast as Ness's tilts. It'll either hit Ness or clash with his tilts. Both are fine - they just reset the status quo, really. His d-tilt trips at a very high rate, so don't think Nana can save you from his f-smash when you trip. Fortunately, the range on this move is abysmal.

I'd say the match-up is very dependant on the players' positioning. Long-range is in our favour, mid-range is in his favour, close-range is in our favour, melee is once again his favour. Both characters can do a lot against eachother's recovery, too. This match-up may be among the most even ones we have...

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Peach

Ratio-45:55
Quote:
her fair is her killing move. another attack to look out for is toad (activates with ice blocks, blizzard, belay, etc.). Also, she can stall by floating off the side and then using umbrella to edge hog/hit from bellow. he short hopping to try and mindgame really doesn't do much (sorry chibi, but you just look like a spaz). if you just keep a level head and think through your approach/timing its an easy fight with few surprises.
Quote:
it basically comes down to both characters strengths, IC's have their grabs and peaches is her air game, peach can basically shut down the IC's grab game while still maintaining her strong arial game, and yes IC's DO have other things besides chaingrabs, but w/out them they aren't really that great honestly, its like taking away snakes grenades/nikitas, he could still put up a fight but in the end he'd have nothing to force people to approach and would be too slow to go on the offensive.......so that was probably a bad analogy, but you get my point, this matchup ruins IC's grab game but peach's air game still works just as well as any other matchup besides maybe the MK matchup.
Pikachu

Ratio-45:55

Pikachu's Disadvantages:
-His downsmash has enough lag that if you shield it, it should allow for a free grab.
-His aerial are awful and force him to get in close. If predicted, they allow for a pretty easy grab.
-Thunder (if used... which can be rare) is easy to shield and get a free grab
-Any badly spaced or predicted move, since pikachu lacks range, can open him up for a grab.
-ICs have higher priority in most cases.
-Pikachu does not have a safe approach.
-To seperate the ICs Pikachu has to approach.
-ICs tilts beat Pikachu's tilts and air game.

Pikachu's Advantages:
-Down smash and thunder easily seperate the ICs
-Has a variety of powerful moves (thunder and foward smash) that can easily gimp a wandering nana at low percents.
-Pretty good spam that can stop desynched ICs in there tracks.
-Doesn't have to approach
-Can easily avoid a close up confrontation because of his quick speed and QAC.
-Foward smash outranges most of the ICs moves (all except down-b) and is hard to punish if it is spaced well.

Desyncing is not helpful in this matchup since his thunderjolts go through blizzard.

This matchup really involves a lot of running around, avoiding his ****, and shielding his moves.

You have to play against Pika like he's MK, and poke at him with aerials until he makes a mistake and gets grabbed, or until he can just die from an aerial or smash or w/e.

This is a ****ing annoying matchup for IC. I would have to say it's even, or maybe 55:45 in pika's favor.

Patience is the best tip I can give you.

Olimar

Ratio-7:3

Olimar Advantages:
- Range, Range, Range
- Foward smash had very little start-up, very long range, and the hitbox stays out longer then olimar is lagging (hitbox lasts till frame 47, Olimar is able to attack again at frame: 39)
- Downsmash can easily seperate the IC.
- Grabs are more useful against the climbers then most other characters grabs due to its long range, minimal lag, quick back throw, and pummel attack that hits nearby enemies.
- Practically every attack is disjointed.
- Minimal lag on all of his smashes.
- Downsmash and upsmash space very well and are hard to approach.
- U-air and Upsmash are good at juggling ICs (especially wandering Nanas).
- Sheilding (non-perfect) his smashes won't help you, in terms of getting in on him.
- Opponents with good aerials are his biggest weakness and ours aren't great or a standard method of approach.
- Foward smash outranges blizzard.

Olimars Disavantages:
- Spam becomes close to useless and a liability (not enough pikmin to respond could lead to empty attacks and easy IC grabs)
- Has no grab armor frames (unlike every other character in the game). This means, he can be grabbed while sending out a grab, even if the pikmin has latched onto one of the ICs (as long as they have not been retracted).
- Can't stop desynched climbers very easily, because his projectile doesn't have hitstun (except purples)
- ICs have higher priority and can go through any pikmin attack.
- Most of his aerials have decent lag and their disjointed hitbox isn't too large (easy to approach).
- Tilts are laggy and useless (free grabs).
- All his smashes stay out very long and are punishable as long as you avoid or perfect sheild the small moving hitbox.
- His foward smash hitbox move slow enough that you can perfect sheild it with both climbers if timed right (possibly needs some desynching).
- We can infinite grab him (haha, like every other character)for a light-ish char, pretty easy too...
- Solo IC can chain grab him to around 30%.

tl;dr Spam blizzard and sideb, ***** pikmin.

come at olimar at a diagonal fashion, so his fsmash and usmash don't hit. then grab.

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Pit

<-psst, its a trap guiez
Ratio-5:5

Admiral Bowser said:

Remember these moves, for they can be the key to seperating them gay ICs: Spinning Bow Jab, U-tilt(if they are close to u), SH-N-airs, arrows

Okay, to fight the eskimoes, remember those 4 moves up there, for they are your main tools in seperating em if u want to lead the match in your favor. When I mean by that, I mean this:

Spinning Bow Jab: Outprioritizes ICs Squall (Side-B) most of the time, hurts reckless ICs who is more concerned at getting grabs than protecting themselves, and can knock away ice blocks without Pit getting hurt (unless you time it wrong, but what's 1-4 damage gonna do)

U-tilt: Some may not think of it the right way, but I see it here. If a reckless ICs is right in front of you, missed their dashgrab, use U-tilt. It's like Pit's fastest attack ever with its first small hitbox, being the bow out at Frame 2 (when not counting his WoI 1 frame), and it does more damage than Usmash.

SH N-air: A pretty good approach, praying the ICs arent good at Shielding this attack, but considering that there are 2 ICs, the capability of seperating them should be somewhat easy, while applying pressure too.
I constantly use this to pressure the ICs, and hoping when they get hurt, they seperate then i can take advantage and try to kill one of the ICs before they come back together.

Arrows: What's a Pit without arrows? Okay jk, bad example, but certainly not a good Pit. Anyways, this is the only move (besides Angel ring, but not Mirror Shield) that can really stop Blizzards without really putting yourself in danger. Against Ice blocks, you may have to jump though, since that wont stop the blocks from getting towards you.

Do NOT ledgecamp often, for the Ice blocks (especially desnch ones) can force you to approach. Use SH N-airs a bit for approach. Though the ICs are kinda small, try SH N-air to U-tilt if u r right on them.

-My post from AIB-
"I got info on the IC matchup, Haven, for later on.
Remember these moves, for they can be the key to seperating them gay ICs: Spinning Bow Jab, U-tilt(if they are close to u), SH-N-airs.

My 4 main moves are SH N-airs, Arrows, Spinning Bow Jab, and U-tilt. After seperating them, do what u can to keep em seperated.
Ledgecamping is bad considering the ice blocks of theirs. Spinning Bow jab almost always outprioritizes the ICs Side-B move.
More to come soon...
Oh, And AVOID FD AT ALL TIMES! My CP is Norfair."

Well anyways, we all know to avoid Final Destination against them. If they do try to do the D-throw to F-air spike to Ice Block, learn the timing, Tech off the ground and take back control.

In fact, the ICs can barely outrange the spinning Bow Jab. From what I experienced, only Fsmash and Blizzard can pass it.
Against their D-air, angle yourself NOT to be directly under the ICs, and U-air them. Edgehog when needed, and watch for a sign of them using Side-B to recover (usually when they are high above platform level) which u could probably Mirror Shield em.

Again with stages, pick Norfair or some stage with small platforms, OR stages with tilting or unstraight platforms to mess up the Ice blocks, so they will slide back and away from you.

If you wanna use D-tilt to get reckless ICs in the air, go for it, then try seperating em, while they are in the air.
he ICs can barely outrange us, but we can pressure them quite well (even though we cant ledgecamp due to ice blocks) and gimp them easily compared to many other characters.

Click to expand...

Just like Falco, Pit's arrows will go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stop squall hammers, and disrupt any desynch attempt. This just completely disrupts your approach, and his good edgeguarding allows for early gimps.
R.O.B.

Ratio - 6:4
just watch xD
Lain vs NinjaLink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7i1v77jo8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idBH1UVifSI

Lain vs HolyNightmare
(First Match Not Recorded; Lain Lost)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkA0nx8XOlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcCVJqnZQ1A
just stuff to watch out for.v.
Spotdodge to Dsmash *****...
Dtilt trip *****..
Nair annoying *****...
Ftilt range *****...
Uair splits *****...
CHARGIN HIS LAZER goes through our blizzard *****...
Charged Gyro can't be blocked by out Ice Blocks.... *****....

Samus

Ratio - 60:40

samus is in our advantage. all she really has is projectile spam (which she can do well in the right hands), up b out of shield and zair. this can make approaching her difficult for the average player, but not impossible. once we get in, her weight is nigh perfect for cgs. her up b can be a bit of a shock when you first get hit by it (assuming you would even GET hit by it), but desync'd blizzards/squall -> grab render that strategy pretty much null. unfortunately, she has a strategy to counter our blizzards and squall.... her zair. when used correctly it allows her to create an annoying wall. one strategy for getting past this that works pretty well is power shielding.

Click to expand...

Sheik

Ratio-8:2
Sheik's game against IC's is more of a bair/nair/jab/tilt hit and run game, combined with needles and possibly chains.

She has very few safe approaches, but they are there. Fast falled nairs into jabs are really good. Jabbing is basically the only way to prevent getting grabbed if you are too close.

Sheik shouldn't be approaching in the first place, so charged needles are the greatest strength she can use. The only problem is that it takes time to charge them, and IC's will usually be trying to approach with desynchs.... or the general run up and shield approach. If sheik gets grabbed she is done.

Sheik can fight back... but basically the IC's can **** her still. Staying in the air and fairing worked in melee. In Brawl... it's more about hit-and-run, jab, and PLATFORMS.

Needles are too good as well.
Snake

Ratio-3:7
-His ground game is better than yours because his Ftilt, Dtilt, and jab will beat out anything you have.
-His air game isn't exactly better than yours but Utilt and Bair will beat out any attack you do in the air.
-As long as he holds a nade you cannot do CG's because they'll explode midway through.
-Desynched ice blocks will hurt his approach since he can't crawl or boost smash and must jump where you can take advantage of the lag from his aerials and punish with a grab.
-Desynched ice blocks will also hurt his camping since it'll interrupt him during the startup of his projectiles, they'll set off nades and mines on contact but not C4, and they can alter the trajectory of missles.
-Blizzard is your only attack that can compete with his range.
-Fair will hit him out of his cypher and spike him.
-In short you can beat him at a distance but you lose up close unless you can get a grab.

He completely destroys the IC's on the ground with his tilts and jabs, and his Utilt makes it risky for the IC's to go into the air. He can also hold a nade to prevent the IC's from grabbing him because it will explode midway through the combo.
Sonic

5:5
Quote:
Well you cant shieldgrab sonic when he's doing his spin dash or jumping spin dash. The only way you can really even grab him is if he does a up B to dair and messes up the timing to cancel the lag. Blizzards, IB's and Dairs work well against him. So overall you should keep him the way he is on the chart
Squirtle

5:5
Quote:
Squirtle has great priority on his aerials, but he lacks a good approach. His withdraw can be canceled with Blizzard, and his jabs are too short and can be just whacked away with them hammers. Seperating the ICs for him might not be that easy and gimping them isn't easy for him since he can't go far off the ledge. He can annoy the ICs, but he'll have trouble KOing them since half way through, the only attack that can kill would probabily be Usmash.
Toon Link

5:5
Quote:
Well desysnced IBs beat out his projectile spamming game, and blizzards do very well in close. He is also very easy to grab because he is forced to approach you when you spam IBs (synced or desynced), with a fair or bair which are both very easy to shieldgrab.
Wario

5:5
Quote:
Wario is tough to grab... most of the time he can just hit your shield with an aerial and retreat away safely. He has no range at all. Period. Abuse that advantage carefully, don't get careless and think you are safe just because you have a desynch &quot;wall&quot; put up. He's great at separating Nana, he's great at gimping the IC's even when you have both of them to recover, and even if he doesn't gimp you he can flat out kill you at gross %'s.

It feels like a baiting game, IC's bait Wario into attacking by appearing to make a mistake in spacing, timing, etc. and Wario baits the IC's into going for a grab or an attack when it really isn't safe to do so. I would put it as an even matchup.
Wolf

Ratio-6:4

Yoshi

Ratio-45:55
Quote:
Well first of all, they're pretty well matched. Yoshi does better in the air, while IC's does better on the Ground, and have more versatile specials. Problem number one is that Yoshi is probably the best separating character against the IC's. Besides his obvious Egg Lay, His Ftilt, Bair, SideB, UpB Eggs, Ground DownB, Quick Discarding with Grabs, and even his Jab can also separate them easily. The main problem is that once Nana is in the air, Yoshi can very easily follow Nana with a 3 Hit Uair WoP for an easy kill with her relatively dumb AI, which in most cases you are unable to follow to save her.

Problem number Two is that Yoshi can gimp the IC's recovery so well, it's redicious. His Dair can cancel out your UpB. What makes it worse is that it desync's it, so if you panic, both you and Nana will do their UpB at the same time, but won't attach to eachother, Not to mention if you do take your time to readjust, Yoshi will have enough time to Edgehog, making you ditch Nana in most cases. It's the same if you're using your SideB. Dair also works, but Eggs are even worse. If you get hit by an egg when you're recovering with your SideB, it will cause you to scatter, and once again, cause a Desync, which will make Nana drop like a rock if you Panic and don't readjust. Course readjusting could also lead to an edgeguard If Yoshi follows up fast enough.

Course, they still have the legendary Infinite, but It's hard to snag an approaching Yoshi due to his fast horizontal speed, going past a shield grab if it happens. Plus a good Yoshi can deal with Nana easily, so you really won't have many chances doing such. Anyways, That's my view on it. I say about a 2 on your scale. We have 6:4 on ours, and I'm not going to lie, Infinites are scary, but he has so many ways to take out Nana, a good Yoshi usually doesn't need to worry about that.
Zelda

Ratio-55:45
Quote:
honestly she mobs the two of you like nobodies business... and the long duration of her USmash and FSmash mean that it's not unlikely that she'll rip at least one of you out of your shield

her normally difficult to land powerhouse aerials have NO trouble hitting your retarted partner the second she/he separates.

She's incredibly resistant to being grabbed, the sole property that puts the icies as high as they are on the teir list...

oh and also, the icies can't really approach her well..... that's a big problem...

and... they are one of the few charcters with a worse air game than Zelda... Zelda can ACTUALLY go into an aerial dogfite with the climbers and come out the victor... and have been predicted to do so.


what do the icies have on Zelda at all?

your projectile spam gets ***** by dins AND nayru's, so you can't camp. your approaches get stuffed... every one of them zelda can beat out. you might have a good CG, but your grab range is attrocious and zelda has enough GTFO moves to get you away if somehow you manage to get close enough to grab. in the air you're one of the few characters that she can completely school. you are vulnerable from below and BOTH sides to death by zelda.

you've got very very little going for you in the matchup. And what do IC's normally consider one of their strongpoints? that people fear the CG so much they have to fight at a range that most characters aren't comfortable with so that they can keep the ICs away... well fortunately that's a range that zelda enjoys being in anyway. Fsamsh and ftilt outrange your everything. and Dsamsh, and Dtilt probably outrange and outspeed anything you have on the ground. Usmash stops all your aerial approaches, and, like nair and fsmash, separates the two of you normally. utilt also stops your aerial approcahes and kills. most of her attacks are unable to be sheildgrabbed. the exception is maybe Nayru's which still functions as a great GTFO move if you manage to be that close.

So, I mean, you have your grab of death when nana's still alive. but other than that, nothing threatening. Considering how much trouble you'll have landing that initial grab on zelda even if you focus on landing it, there's no way that's anywhere NEAR enough of a consideration to make the match even EVEN for you guys. you have that on everyone. you have it on Metaknight. does that make the match yours to lose? no, because if you have only one reliable strategy against an oponent and it's as hard as to land as it is, especially against that character, then you don't have an adantage. period. it's not even even. period. heck. if you didn't have the chaingrab, what would you have at all in the matchup? it'd probably be even worse for you.
Zero Suit Samus

Ratio-55:45

I have a couple questions regarding these numbers.

First of all, is Marth really that hard? It could just be that Socal Marths don't know how to fight against ICs, but I always welcome the match-up. In my experience, he doesn't seem too hard to grab and blizzard is good when used sparingly.

I'm also curious why the ICs are listed as having an advantage over Wario; I find Warios with good spacing to be extremely hard to punish. I might just be biased since the only Wario I ever play is a lot better than me, though, and I think I'm playing the match-up wrong, anyways.

edit: Oh, you just changed these numbers right as I posted.

This is all wrong... A few Examples: Jigglypuff matchup should be 6:4 ; Bowser 8:2 ; Diddy 5:5 ; Fox 6:4 ; Gannon's not 10:0 probably 7:3 But I lol'd.

I said 6:4 advantage for Yoshi....

At least, I think I did... thats what we got on our board >_>

And also, this thread WAS just made, so it's obviously going to have a few bugs

Diddy Kong goes even with the Ice Climbers? I don't know this matchup well so I'm asking out of curiosity.

Bnzaaa said:

Diddy Kong goes even with the Ice Climbers? I don't know this matchup well so I'm asking out of curiosity.

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I'm going to assume that his Banana's would be a huge factor in this fight, as they can break your chaingrabs and separate Nana easily.

Edit: As a former Ganondorf Secondary, I will throw in my two cents in this matchup.

Ganondorf is going to struggle constantly in this matchup, and the infinites make it no better. Ganondorf is going to have to approach them, but easier said then done. His SideB does an ok job. It can beat your Grab and snag you right out of a Squall. However it's easily stopped by Ice Blocks and Blizzard. Everything else (DownB, Dash) is less effective. Ganondorf has to do some very fancy work to get attacks in.

The only real strong point is that Ganondorf's Airgame beats yours, no joke. If he somehow gets you in the air, then your in trouble. His Uair is a complete beast, and will mess you up, not to mention his other airs are good and can autocancel into combos.

There's really nothing much to say, It's just not a good fight for Ganondorf, especially when he's trying desperately not to get grabbed. Though it's not completely hopeless. I say about 8:2 or 9:1

Also ZSS > Ice Climbers? I like to know about this

Mmac said:

I'm going to assume that his Banana's would be a huge factor in this fight, as they can break your chaingrabs and separate Nana easily

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His banana's can also actually be very helpful because they provide a free de-sync when diddy throws them at you, or you when you run into them. And you have multiple options use them against him such as having nana attack while popo throws the banana. It also isn't really that hard to avoid them in your CG's.

yea if you just do bthrow--> buffer an f-throw, you can chain grab without moving, so the bananas shouldn't be too much of a problem when it comes to chain grabs.

I still say Jiggz has an advantage over IC

The Jiggs has either a 3:7 or a 4:6 IMO. She has the ability to gimp and separate you, she can't really use her rollout as a kill move since the Ice Blocks just stop it in it's tracks. She really can't use Rest as a kill move since if it doesn't hit both ICs, Jiggs is in deep ****; also The ICs are kinda hard to hit using Rest.

Most of the time, Jiggs will be in the air and the only way that can stop it effectively IMO is a SH Blizzard or Squall. I haven't faced a Jiggs in a LONG time so really... I think the Jiggs has the upper hand. Little graffiti puffball is gonna draw faces over the ICs.

I don't think Jiggs is that bad. ICs should do fine if they just play defensively and blizzard a lot.

I think of Ice Climbers vs. Jigglypuff as even. I've fouten a couple good jigglypuff users and we were evently matched. You can't really grab her, but luckily Ice Climbers are good at fighting people that are above them. Their Ice Blocks also cancel out her rollout, so unlike quite a few characters, you won't have to worry about that. She does gimp nana extremely easily though, I don't really think you need nana for this matchup though, since without grabs not having her won't hurt you all that much, that's just from my experiences though.

I believe your wrong about olimar, its 70:30 Ice climbers. Chain Grabs, good approach, speed and power D:

Fly_Amanita said:

I have a couple questions regarding these numbers.

First of all, is Marth really that hard? It could just be that Socal Marths don't know how to fight against ICs, but I always welcome the match-up. In my experience, he doesn't seem too hard to grab and blizzard is good when used sparingly.

I'm also curious why the ICs are listed as having an advantage over Wario; I find Warios with good spacing to be extremely hard to punish. I might just be biased since the only Wario I ever play is a lot better than me, though, and I think I'm playing the match-up wrong, anyways.

edit: Oh, you just changed these numbers right as I posted.

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marth can use shield breaker to punish ICs grab game just to let you know and dancing blades can seperated them as well.

i think peach should be a 4:6. all her ariels have zero lag and her turnips completly destroy your recovery. not to mention that toad is the ultimate desynch counter and her downsmash can easily separate both of them

Barge said:

I believe your wrong about olimar, its 70:30 Ice climbers. Chain Grabs, good approach, speed and power D:

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sorry to double post but olimar has enough grab range to seperate them and not get hurt. I think he has the easiest time desynching them on the ground and can pressure them with the pikmin

Why is TLink 3:7?

Byronman said:

Why is TLink 3:7?

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I think that the IC might even have an advantage over Toon Link.

Nintendogs said:

I think that the IC might even have an advantage over Toon Link.

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Not exactly an advantage, just not that much of a disadvantage IMO.

KRDsonic said:

Not exactly an advantage, just not that much of a disadvantage IMO.

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Well desysnced IBs beat out his projectile spamming game, and blizzards do very well in close. He is also very easy to grab because he is forced to approach you when you spam IBs (synced or desynced), with a fair or bair which are both very easy to shieldgrab.

Just to enlighten why Squirtle is at a disadvantage. Ivysaur just makes it hard...

Squirtle has great priority on his aerials, but he lacks a good approach. His withdraw can be canceled with Blizzard, and his jabs are too short and can be just whacked away with them hammers. Seperating the ICs for him might not be that easy and gimping them isn't easy for him since he can't go far off the ledge. He can annoy the ICs, but he'll have trouble KOing them since half way through, the only attack that can kill would probabily be Usmash.

And Ivysaur kinda molest ICs, his razor leaf goes through their Ice Blocks, and his Fsmash has huge range compared to the ICs and so it's hard to get close and hammer him or even get a grab and his Bair has awesome range. At least many of his ranged attacks have a little startup lag to it. I think the matchup is 6:4

Opps! I mean 4:6... mb

Meta Knight is surprisingly easy if you know how to powershield. GAW vs IC is 50/50 because GAW's aerials are just so freaking easy to punish.

Elaborate? Of course!

G&W: Retreating short hops space out his bairs. Fall on him with squall hammer and it lands every hit, because his aerials all have landing lag. Random blizzards rock. If he gets grabbed, he's dead. No question. Don't approach from the ground. His downtilt ***** bad.

MK: Random blizzards>random nadoes. Powershield to massive chaingrab ftw. His advantage consists in KOing your partner, which MAY ACTUALLY TAKE LONGER THAN IT TAKES FOR YOU TO LAND A GRAB. IC's upair owns airborne MK. Try your best to KO from every grab. Fsmash near the edge KOs from 100%.

Lucario. Isn't it 50/50? I mean sheesh...whatever, I don't get it. Blizzard>fsmash...the classic squall hammer into upair combo works on him just as well as the rest of the brawl cast...c'mon. He's even one of the easier chaingrabs. I say it's 50/50 only because Lucario is a BEAST. We all know that. But against IC he may not get to live long. Not if he gets grabbed below 90%. For those wondering, the Lucario suited chaingrab is fthrow to the edge, fthrow+spike.

Snake. Ouch...snake...IC do so well...until you start talking Snake. In my opinion, it's a 20/80 matchup, favor Snake. Grenade camp's too good...also IC aren't heavy enough to take an uptilt like a man at high %'s.

My opinion:

MK: 30/70
G&W: 50/50
Lucario: 50/50
Snake: 20/80

G&W is a tiring match-up. But hard to play isn't the same as hard to win. MK is actually not that stressing. You get gimped in a flash and he gets destroyed by a powershield to grab so you both die quickly, the match goes by pretty quickly.

Maybe Snake really is 30/70. But oh man! He's the hardest. I have no R.O.B. experience with the Ice Climbers because I go Dedede against him, so I can't say much on that.

I agree on Marth having a 60/40 advantage. So if G&W and Lucario are easier than Marth, and a decent IC player can win half the time against them, doesn't that mean they're even? I'm using logic here =)

See ya guyzzz!

Sorry buddy, G&W is not 50/50 with Ice Climbers, as I explained in a previous thread.

A good G&W user canNOT be grabbed if he spaces well, which is extremely easy for G&W. His Bair is unpunnishable by IC, and the only option you have against it is to try jumping over him or using a blizzard, which he can bucket if he times it right. A good G&W also knows not to use the key every time they get hit in the air, since that leaves him hope against Ice Climbers.

Well, I'm not going to go into all the detail I did before since I already posted it somewhere once, but I can tell you that I know a lot about this matchup, since the only person I brawl offline when I'm not at a tourny is my neighbor who mains G&W, and definently knows how to use unpunnishable approaches with G&W, and there is no grabbing him due to his excelent spacing.

Nintendogs said:

Well desysnced IBs beat out his projectile spamming game, and blizzards do very well in close. He is also very easy to grab because he is forced to approach you when you spam IBs (synced or desynced), with a fair or bair which are both very easy to shieldgrab.

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Because, ya know, TLink can't just SH over the blocks and resume his spamming. The fact of the matter is that TLink has like one the best camp games in Brawl. IC has to approach him, not the other way.

Or at least, that's how I view the match-up. *shrugs*

Me feel Snake is too hard. It's like you have to desync your Ice Blocks just to stop him motor sliding, the Ice blocks coming undesynced don't stop him from gaining enough ground to come and use his magic hitboxes of tilts.... his bair just poo poos over you and SH blizzard just don't have enough stunpower to stop him from using them magic hitboxes. Also he can easily KO the ICs and tear them away from each other with ease.

Snake is a harder matchup than MK IMO, and if anyone would give any tips on how to beat Snake... I'll give you a cookie =D

Sorry about me posting about IC vs G&W being even. G&W probably has a slight advantage (8:2 is an obscene exaggeration). If I beat G&Wes, I guess it's because I'm cool, like the IC =)

Still, I say IC's only harsh matchups are Snake and Metaknight. 8-2/7-3 for Snake (I say 8-2, he's unbelievably hard), 7-3 for MK.

For any other matchup, it's no worse than 40/60 for the IC, in my opinion. I'll start contributing to the IC boards, they seem uninformed, sort of.

updated.

ok,so i just recently went to a tourney and i realized somthing,snake is seriously not that bad of a match up,on the ground,dodging nades arent a problem if you know where that are and where they will be. when approaching,if snake is projectile spamming,go with iceblocks.in the air or close range, its best to use squalls,he's also open for a grab while throwing a nade(not when he's holding it though) its easier to let him approach you though(theres also a open sopt when he uses a motar slide)if you cant kill with a CG. go with uair or foward smash(possibly a 4:6)

as for GW,on the ground,squall works best(preferibly desynced)

i got nothing on ROB though

Can we talk about Fox? I'm having a tough time trying to knock him out >.>

And I think I saw the Sonic boards talk about the IC match up... Am I right?

lol just grab Fox. Before you're able to, keep up the classic pivot/shorthop squall hammers and random blizzards up.

Update!! Fsmash>Mach Tornado. It's a reflex thing. On the downside, you can't shorthop fsmash, which limits movement. Post that up on the matchup descriptions.

Snake can throw his nades when they're about to explode, which can make you shield instead of grabbing him. Also you can't always predict correctly if he's going to throw a nade or just drop it.

mc-killa said:

updated.i would like to see you guys thoughts about sonic. hes not a hard matchup but his "speed" does get annoying somtimes

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Well you cant shieldgrab sonic when he's doing his spin dash or jumping spin dash. The only way you can really even grab him is if he does a up B to dair and messes up the timing to cancel the lag. Blizzards, IB's and Dairs work well against him. So overall you should keep him the way he is on the chart; 5:5

I also played the #1 bowser main a few days ago and I realized the matchup is probably 6:4 not 8:2. You should also change shiek to 6:4

Shiek is annoying, but bowser doesn't seem like he would be that hard to beat

ok i think this matchup is a little bit off, seriously the iceys have more than just 3 bad matchups, and they are only to snake meta and G&W? the other bad matchups are like 4-6 or 45-55? no way, if that was true they would be just under metaknight, because snake has more bad matchups than that.