Okay, seriously guys, Dsmash. OP updated

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

Dsmash. Wolf's best kill move.

A lot of Wolf mains use this move quite a lot. It should not be used a lot. It should be used very sparingly, it's Wolf's only reliable kill move. Though I was completely wrong about the whole absolutely fresh and the fresh Dsmash, if you hit with a Dsmash. However, despite being completely wrong. I learned a lot ^^

Start of 99 stock match Dsmash -> 14% damage.

14%
12%
11%
10%
9%
8%
7%
7%
6%
6%
6%

^ Above are the real numbers, I hit GaW, and then killed him after each time in order to insure that
no fractions were involved.

-------

ALrighty, I just did some testing as to the diminishing moves of Wolf's grab attack, only the first attack does 1.5%. The rest do less than that. The first time I did two in a row, it did 2 percent. Then I completely refreshed everything, did one grab attack, killed the character, and then jabbed again, it didn't do anything. So if only moves that do "1% or more" are ones that refresh attacks, only one grab attack actually refreshes the moves. The rest is just damage.

------

Also just tested: Knockback. There is no difference between a Dsmash that has been refreshed by lost stock and a Dsmash that has been refreshed by 9 different moves. The way I tested: I got GaW up to a hundred percent by Fox's lasers, both times. Just to be sure the fractions were the same, and both times it went from a hundred to 115, so both were almost the same fractions. How I tested this: First made a custom stage with about 18 blocks. Take GaW to the second to last block, get him to a hundred via Fox's lasers, and then Dsmash him. For me GaW went 13 blocks. Also turns out Dsmash naturally has a diagonal vector, so the way to properly DI Wolf's Dsmash would be to have the control stick Up and towards Wolf.

Also, I tested this with a 12% Dsmash, and GaW only went 11 blocks, so the difference between a fully fresh Dsmash and an almost fresh Dsmash can mean the difference between your opponent living and dying.

Also, the blaster doesn't appear to do fractional damage. Damage without GaW dying -> 6, 5, 4
Damage with GaW dying -> 6,5,4. So yeah, hopefully it shouldn't be fractional damage. It does kinda make me wonder, but yeah, too lazy to test out anything other than Dsmash.

Conclusion from all this data: Diminishing moves and fractions are gay.

Real conclusion from this data: Grab attacks do not refresh your moves like you think they do. If you miss a Dsmash or hit a shield/opponent with invincibility then your Dsmash will not diminish. There is a noticable difference between a fully fresh Dsmash and a "used only once" fresh.

Despite me being completely wrong in my original OP (Lol) my advice is still the same, save your Dsmash. Many many people do not have it completely fresh when they want to kill with it. And that does not help for getting kills off, I think the reason people thought they were feeling the same thing I did with the whole after-stock thing was because before they were using it to kill when it wasn't completely fresh. And so when they only used it thrice to kill, they thought it was more than what it was normally. Just my guess. However if you were to use it during the early part of a stock, you can refresh it by using 9 different moves (Using three triple A combos is the most efficient) however grab attacks WILL NOT refresh the Dsmash.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 17, 2008

Good point. I already mentioned that in the DK match-up. Many ppl seem to like it while approaching but that's not too great.

I wouldn't say, that 3 times is enough though. It's just a great move even if it doesn't finish. Spike and 0 lag fair can kill too after all so it's not that bad

JCav · Aug 17, 2008

ok i agree with you on this but lets say this happens...

you hit your opponent and they dont die. well what i like to is wolfs grab then jab (idk the proper term)

and this is one of my favorite things about wolf. sure the move only does one damage but you can un stale a move just like that.

and if there really bad, grab release-d smash

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

The thing is, once you use it and they don't die, you completely refresh it with 9 grab attacks, it has LESS knockback than it did when you first used it. Do you see my point? Even if you use 9 moves after you've used that first Dsmash, it's still not at it's highest point.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 17, 2008

But that point gets lost either way once you finish your opponent off for the first time

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

And you get it back once you lose a stock. So if you can get an opponent to the point where you could KO them before you lose a stock, the skill gab would be fairly large.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 17, 2008

And if you have a stock lead you won't need your dsmash soon anyways unless he's a n00b. Ok yeah, I get your point, although I don't think it's as extreme as you say

JFizzle · Aug 17, 2008

Actually, it might be as extreme as he mentioned, cause it determines the match. You might regret it if you get stuck in a lock or a chain grab that makes you lose the match. 3 times per match. GG.

Does Dsmash get diminished if it's shielded??

JCav · Aug 17, 2008

ArcPoint said:
The thing is, once you use it and they don't die, you completely refresh it with 9 grab attacks, it has LESS knockback than it did when you first used it. Do you see my point? Even if you use 9 moves after you've used that first Dsmash, it's still not at it's highest point.

yeah i see what ur saying. and it is tough after d smash goes stale, its its harder to ko

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 17, 2008

I suppose you're right. Dsmash is a ggood punishing move but fsmash is good enough so it is better to save it

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

That and Fsmash does more damage. And if you're in range, use a Usmash, free 18 %.

Turbo Ether · Aug 17, 2008

Extreme liberal use of Dsmash has not been a successful strategy for me in the past. I actually plan to use the move more often in the future, since it's a good move in general and Wolf is good at refreshing anyway.

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

...Dude...read a bit more in-depth.

You just start a game, you hit your opponent with a Dsmash, next you hit them with 9 other moves. That Dsmash is not as powerful as it was when you first started, and the ONLY way to get Dsmash BACK to that original state is by losing a stock. That's the whole reason I went over diminishing returns/made this thread.

§witch · Aug 17, 2008

I use dsmash too much with my other chars to completely change my habits with wolf, but for wolf mains this is pretty solid advice.

JFizzle · Aug 17, 2008

One way to look at this is that everyone has their own style of play. I'm sure that Wolf mains such as myself don't go strictly by this. Then again, all types of Wolf play-styles, spacing or combo oriented, should include saving their Dsmash for last, only using it as a guaranteed stock, not a damager. That's what Fsmash and Usmash are for.

Sesshomuronay · Aug 17, 2008

I agree D-smash should be saved until their at high %. I always use U-smash until I can finish them with D-smash. U-smash is faster I think or at least simultaneous in both directions(instead of forward hit then back) and its good for racking up damage. F-smash is used for F-smash purposes.

JCav · Aug 17, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
I agree D-smash should be saved until their at high %. I always use U-smash until I can finish them with D-smash. U-smash is faster I think or at least simultaneous in both directions(instead of forward hit then back) and its good for racking up damage. F-smash is used for F-smash purposes.

i wouldnt say its faster but i like how it hits on both sides definitely.

smash boost...

Turbo Ether · Aug 17, 2008

ArcPoint said:
...Dude...read a bit more in-depth.

You just start a game, you hit your opponent with a Dsmash, next you hit them with 9 other moves. That Dsmash is not as powerful as it was when you first started, and the ONLY way to get Dsmash BACK to that original state is by losing a stock. That's the whole reason I went over diminishing returns/made this thread.

I did read in-depth. I've used Dsmash extremely liberally since stale moves info first became available. Old concept. I'll just say that I have a few different strategies in mind for the future.

ArcPoint · Aug 17, 2008

@ Fizzle, if you hit a shield, or whiff completely, it does not count as a hit. Only if you actually HIT the opponent does it count for knockback.

And yes, everybody does have a different style of play, that's pretty obvious. But I'm saying that if people want to get kills faster, it's recommended that you save Dsmash for when it's going to kill.

Turbo Ether, it doesn't sound like you get my point, if you do, then just ignore the following example.

Every move has different levels of knockback. Each level has less knockback than the previous level. There's level 10, this is achieved when you start the match, when you lose your first stock, and when you lose your second stock (If you lose your third you kinda lose xD). After you hit an opponent with a level 10 Dsmash, it then goes to level 9. If you were to hit them again with a level 9 Dsmash, it would go to 8 ect ect until level 1. Now, when you're at level 1 Dsmash, you grab them, and do 10 jabs. Your Dsmash is now at level 9 knockback, not level 10. You can NOT get level 10 knockback until you lose a stock. And the difference between level 9 and 10 is noticably more than the difference between 9 and 8.

Do you see what I mean? Dsmash SHOULDN'T be used liberally, at all.

Turbo Ether · Aug 18, 2008

Are you sure it cant be reset to level 10 knockback? I just did a ghetto experiment. I plugged in a second controller and set it up as a motionless Mario dummy in Brawl/VS mode. The results...

Completely fresh Dsmash:

In the center of FD, Dsmash kills Mario off the side of the screen at no less than 104%.

Dsmash, manually refreshed with 9 moves:

Identical results.

I'm gonna test something else in a sec.

Edit:

Ok I just did more testing. A completely fresh Dsmash does at least 14.5% damage. And the same thing is true for a 9-move refreshed Dsmash. Also, apparently i'm dumb and used the word "liberal" incorrectly. I meant the opposite. In other words, my use of Dsmash in the past has been extremely strict.

Yinlong · Aug 18, 2008

Turbo Ether said:
Also, apparently i'm dumb and used the word "liberal" incorrectly. I meant the opposite. In other words, my use of Dsmash in the past has been extremely strict.

ROFL
10thatshilarious

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 18, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
I agree D-smash should be saved until their at high %. I always use U-smash until I can finish them with D-smash. U-smash is faster I think or at least simultaneous in both directions(instead of forward hit then back) and its good for racking up damage. F-smash is used for F-smash purposes.

Usmash isn't faster. But it's fast enough for special punishment :laugh:

JFizzle · Aug 18, 2008

Okay, here's a hypothetical situation.

Say I dodge a slow Fsmash on the edge of FD. Im facing the edge, but he's closer to it than I am. My opponent is over 100%, but a Dsmash won't kill him, and I'm assuming he's gonna DI anyways. Let's say that I'm so close to him that if I Fsmash, he'll trip, and I'll end up being on the other side of him, and I'LL be on top of the edge instead of him.

What would be the BEST substitute for Dsmash in this situation?? Also, Is it possible to DI out of Wolf's second Usmash hit if your hit by the first hit??

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 18, 2008

That won't happen. If your opponent has 100%+ he'll die, if you're at the edge of FD. I don't think there's a "real" sub for dsmash in that situation though. The only thing that reliable hits in that situation is Shine but with that knockback...

Yinlong · Aug 18, 2008

u can grab and set up for a better attack?

:034: · Aug 18, 2008

Man, ArcPoint is right. I usually have trouble killing, but I was fighting against Empy's Ike today (heavyweight) and I saved my downsmash throughout the entire match..

3 downsmashes. 3 kills.

Too good.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 18, 2008

The more I try to make use of that "rule" during battle, the better the results.

It's his best killing move and there are replacements for all other situations. If you want to attack the opponent, when his behind you bair rules too

wolfbrawl · Aug 18, 2008

Hm.... I never thought about that

Thirskk · Aug 18, 2008

yah i have to agree with arcpoint
just save ur dsmash for when u know its gonna hit

and i hate it when people spam it!!
tends to get annoying

Ishiey · Aug 18, 2008

There is DEFINITELY a noticable difference between lv 10 an 9 dsmash. ArcPoint, where did you find out about not being able to restore a move to full after the first time you use it after a start? I'm not sure that's common knowledge, I always thought it was just the 9 move slot thing.

ArcPoint · Aug 18, 2008

I read it somewhere, I think it may have been in Rob's SBR thread. Overswarm mentioned how Nair is Rob's best kill move. And then he said something about how when he uses Nair after coming back from losing a stock it feels more powerful and then the other guy confirmed it. It may be in Scotu's physics of attacks, I'm not sure. However, I have noticed the same thing, that Dsmash feels a lot more powerful after I come back from a stock. I think this was yet another one of Sakurai's Method of "Balancing things out" So if you're down a stock, it makes it easier for you to kill your opponent. That's just my guess.

And just to reiterate a point: If you miss, whiff, or hit a shield, it will not diminish. If you come back from a stock, Dsmash ten times into thin air, and then hit your opponent, it will still have that level 10 knockback. So you don't have to make sure it HITS, you just have to make sure it KILLS when it hits.

JCav · Aug 18, 2008

ArcPoint said:
I read it somewhere, I think it may have been in Rob's SBR thread. Overswarm mentioned how Nair is Rob's best kill move. And then he said something about how when he uses Nair after coming back from losing a stock it feels more powerful and then the other guy confirmed it. It may be in Scotu's physics of attacks, I'm not sure. However, I have noticed the same thing, that Dsmash feels a lot more powerful after I come back from a stock. I think this was yet another one of Sakurai's Method of "Balancing things out" So if you're down a stock, it makes it easier for you to kill your opponent. That's just my guess.

And just to reiterate a point: If you miss, whiff, or hit a shield, it will not diminish. If you come back from a stock, Dsmash ten times into thin air, and then hit your opponent, it will still have that level 10 knockback. So you don't have to make sure it HITS, you just have to make sure it KILLS when it hits.

hmm, this makes me wonder if i should suicide when me and my opponent have 100+ and i have a stale d smash...

ArcPoint · Aug 18, 2008

Nah, do as much damage as possible to them. And when you finally die, you can come back and KO them with a fully fresh Bair. And now you still have a fresh Dsmash for the next possible stock.

JCav · Aug 18, 2008

ArcPoint said:
Nah, do as much damage as possible to them. And when you finally die, you can come back and KO them with a fully fresh Bair. And now you still have a fresh Dsmash for the next possible stock.

fresh bair...

after i die has got to be the only time i have that fresh

cutter · Aug 19, 2008

Wolf has NO problem whatsoever at keeping his moves fresh. Here's why:

Wolf's grab attack is so fast. Every hit counts as an individual attack, which means every hit will replenish Wolf's stale moves. Sometimes I'll just grab somone and spam grab attack without the intention of throwing. This is really good when your foe is at high % and your kill moves are stale. Grab them, mash A until they get out and your attacks are fresh.

Once you mix in Wolf's laser and his jab (every hit of the jab counts as an individual move), Wolf can keep his moves fresh quite easily. Wolf just gets a bad rap of having problems KOing because his kill moves are kinda weak in knockback and are best utilized when you're right on the edge.

JCav · Aug 19, 2008

cutter said:
Wolf has NO problem whatsoever at keeping his moves fresh. Here's why:

Wolf's grab attack is so fast. Every hit counts as an individual attack, which means every hit will replenish Wolf's stale moves. Sometimes I'll just grab somone and spam grab attack without the intention of throwing. This is really good when your foe is at high % and your kill moves are stale. Grab them, mash A until they get out and your attacks are fresh.

Once you mix in Wolf's laser and his jab (every hit of the jab counts as an individual move), Wolf can keep his moves fresh quite easily. Wolf just gets a bad rap of having problems KOing because his kill moves are kinda weak in knockback and are best utilized when you're right on the edge.

thats what i said earlier in this thread but im kinda confused on the stale moves thing.

arcpoint makes it sound like even if you hit with d smash on the 11th move, it wont have the same knockback. and he also says that it only replenishes when you die.

that makes sense, im confused...

ArcPoint · Aug 19, 2008

...Allow me to quote myself, I'll try explaining it, as I apparently did not make myself clear.

Every move has different levels of knockback. Each level has less knockback than the previous level. There's level 10, this is achieved when you start the match, when you lose your first stock, and when you lose your second stock (If you lose your third you kinda lose xD). After you hit an opponent with a level 10 Dsmash, it then goes to level 9. If you were to hit them again with a level 9 Dsmash, it would go to 8 ect ect until level 1. Now, when you're at level 1 Dsmash, you grab them, and do 10 jabs. Your Dsmash is now at level 9 knockback, not level 10. You can NOT get level 10 knockback until you lose a stock. And the difference between level 9 and 10 is noticably more than the difference between 9 and 8.

Wolf DOES have excellent refreshing abilities, he can refresh every move to a "level 9" knockback. Only starting the match and losing stocks can give you back that "level 10" knockback. You can NOT get that knockback back until you lose a stock. Do you get my point?

cutter · Aug 19, 2008

Here's how stale moves work:

When you hit your opponent with an attack that required an input, it goes on the "stale moves queue". This "queue" is obviously invisble, but it keeps track of your last 9 moves.

It might look something like this:
- Dsmash
- Utilt
- Jab (1st hit)
- Jab (2nd hit)
- Jab (3rd hit)
- Blaster
- Fsmash
- Ftilt
- Bair

Bair was the last move you used followed by Ftilt then Fsmash... etc. The next move you would use (let's say shine) would move the queue like this:

- Utilt
- Jab (1st hit)
- Jab (2nd hit)
- Jab (3rd hit)
- Blaster
- Fsmash
- Ftilt
- Bair
- Shine

Dsmash is no longer on the stale moves queue, so now the move is "fresh". As long as a move is on the stale moves list, it is considered "stale". If you continuously use Dsmash, there would be multiple instances of Dsmash on the queue based on when you used them (duh). The game calculates damage and knockback decay depending on the location of a stale move and how many instances of the said move are on the list.

So if you used a grab attack 6 times now with the above stale moves queue, it would look like this:

- Ftilt
- Bair
- Shine
- Grab attack
- Grab attack
- Grab attack
- Grab attack
- Grab attack
- Grab attack

Using multiple grab attacks essentially clears Wolf's stale moves. This is something every Wolf main should know.

EDIT: Thank you ArcPoint for clearing up that point about your moves going back to normal when you respawn. This is why when I play G&W I'll Nair and it does 18% instead of the usual 17%

JCav · Aug 19, 2008

ahh now i see, thanks for the info

thats why i love his quick grab attack

ArcPoint · Aug 19, 2008

Yeah Cutter, it not only does extra damage, a Fully fresh Dsmash will have noticably more knockback than a "Refreshed" dsmash, that's been used, but has been refreshed by using 9 different moves. And my point is that a fully fresh Dsmash is more powerful than a refreshed Dsmash, so you're going to be able to kill faster by using the strategy "Don't use Dsmash at all until I want to kill the opponent" than "Use Dsmash until 50% and then don't use it until killing time" This is one thing I see Germ doing a lot, is using Dsmash when it isn't being used to kill. And that makes it that much harder to kill his opponent. I think he'd be able to kill better and faster if he only used it to kill.

Also, this is entirely theoretical and based off of what the opponent knows. But if you use Dsmash more than when it's used to kill, your opponent gets used to when you use your Dsmash, which ultimately makes it harder to LAND a Dsmash since they're more or less predicting what situations you use your Dsmash in, they also sorta get a better feel for the spacing of Dsmash. So in theory if you used it only 3 times versus 10 times per match you should be able to land a Dsmash better because they simply don't know when you use Dsmash.

^ Above is all theoretical, do not take it as fact. It is also highly dependent on your opponent. Just a thought.

Okay, seriously guys, Dsmash. *OP updated*

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Life is just a party

Smash Apprentice

Life is just a party

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Life is just a party

Smash Cadet

Smash Rookie

Mother Wolf

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Information

Network

Okay, seriously guys, Dsmash. OP updated