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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

JayBee

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i too was fooled by that comment kinzer.
well done
+50 steak points for you?
actually that was sarcasm.
what? you mean you didn't know?
-50 steak points for you then
justice has been served. Steak.
 

Kinzer

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For reals though, G&W is an annoying matchup, I only got reminded of that today.

I don't know, usually I do alright at that MU, but today at the tournament, I got destroyed.

Funny though, where I am usually declining, I am prospering in another field. I managed to (somewhat?) overcome my troubles with Fox and com out victorious. I know this is a bit off-topic, but I guess I'm just trying to tell you that I don't think G&W is in any way a pushover. Gotta work to get that win.

Edit: Might as well make this even more clear. When you're talking about matchups, you're suppose to be talking about the top of the metagame, anything else is unacceptable and delves into player skill, which shouldn't be accounted for; and all that blah blah blah theorycraft business you're all aware of. Anybody that talks about something stupid, they... well yeah, best be trollin' son.
 

Z1GMA

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You guys have a Board-post-count over 91,800.
I guess you've got many members like Kinzer, huh?
 

B.A.M.

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hey so i know you all are done with the falco matchup but i just wanted to add more seeing as i just played Larry in tourney. Spin dashing slightly out of falco's ftilt ranges messes with alot of his options. If he chooses to laser, you can let go of spin dash on reaction and your invincibility frames WILL protect you from his lasers and allow you to punish. once you have falco in the air you can camp his landing with sh uairs, usmashes, grabs and even spin dash > uair. Also go for the gimps! whenever we knock off falco we can a solid opportunity to gimp/rack up damage. Usmash is good, however i am coming to the conclusion with good reaction speed and simply watching the height of falco, ftilt is the best option ( unless we can down tilt fsmash the ledge consistently.) Ftilt comes out faster and ends faster, but most importantly if you succeed in hitting a ftilt at the edge, they are required to up b to recover as it will just drop the falco with no knockback. Got Larry with it a couple times ( too bad i tripped on one and failed and edgehogging the other.) Uthrows are golden of course, dtilt locks are as well.

Of course beware of the CG especially the follow ups. As KID has said on numerous occasion, the dair is the worst as it gets you into a guessing game falco is quite familiar with. If you get daired while grounded, just jump away quickly. I dont know about anyone else but falco seems fairly susceptible to uairs off the top maybe its because of the nature of his AD and his fastfalling but as long as ur under him initially the second uair usually will get him if u chase with a spring.

Also please beware of Falco's adept at differing phantasms. They will use their phantasms for follow ups at anytime or to start a juggle. Sometimes theyll medium/short IAP> usmash for the kill. Also beware of Dthrow > semi charged Dacus at high %, as a falco player and playing with Larry, ill tell you it works far more than it should.

To summarize this text: play gay, dont get grabbed. Be close enough to punish lasers with either IDA or Spin-dash but far enough so you dont, you guessed it, get grabbed.
 

4nace

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Yeah, spring out of chain grab too. If they don't play Sonics often they may not realize that they actually have to buffer the chain grab past 20% or so. Most falcos buffer anyway, unless they are trying to cover a distance, but some forget.

Also, spring if you get daired like syon said, because that way you get up and get some quick invincy frames on the ground making it near impossible to grab/ approach you.

Also, don't CP FD against Falco haha. It sucks and lasers mess up Spin cancelling just as much as spin cancelling messes up Falco's spacing game.

Also, its a ton of guessing when you're in close. You're going to have to live longer than Falco each stock if you want to win, so you have to be able to read him well. Grabbing is crucial in this match-up as you want to up throw him and punish every landing that he does. If the falco is not amazing at lasering then you better be on his *** every time he lands with Up Air, grab, dash attack, spindash or something.

Find out when he likes to phantasm and punish it. If he mixes grounded phantasms into his array often, just hold shield until after he is through you. No use trying to powershield an IAP only to get hit by a regular phantasm. Sonic can punish Falco's phantasm game better than any character if you read well and dont get too predictable on your punishes. Sometimes grab right away, sometimes do a late dash attack and other times do a Side-B cancel to fake him into down dodging and then grab him.

Learn to GIMP. This is really hard if you don't play against real players often as gimping computers is very different. Falco really only has 4 options when he wants to recover and you have an answer for all 4.
1.) Phantasm high to a top Platform (BF,Smashville etc) Up Air or spring up air if necessary.
2.) Phantasm onto the level (maybe try to deke you into thinking hes doing something else) Charge forward Smash if you can time it. Short hop down air works well too. Up Smash is probably the easiest but worst for punishment if you predict wrong and Neutral Air is the best if you're not sure and you just jump around to act dumb and neutral air when you hear the sound haha.
3.) Phantasm to ledge. This is the hardest to punish. Basically your options are to either stand on the ledge and charge a FSmash down like syon said. Or jump above the ledge and drop a spring for a stage spike. OR grab the edge if youre close enough haha.
4.) Fake a Phantasm and recover with FireBird - (Lol go hit him with any aerial. Preferably a backair to stage spike, but you have really just forward air as soon as you leave the edge then old back to the stage and the falco will die haha. Neutral Air and Spring also work. If he does this, then he probably tricked you but if you're close enough he better be dead even at like 40%).

As syon said. Don't get grabbed early. If he gets up a life dont go for downsmashes and forward smashes. Its just going to make you get 70% from grabs. Instead rack the damage up to 180% when you can kill him with lots of options such as ASC or Up throw on a higher platform or something.

Also for a protip: If you grounded spring an IAP at the end of it and then UP air the falco you get 50 cool points!

I actually like Sonic over Falco at low percentage because Falco kinda sucks in the air. I have a combo saved where I get him from 0-50% and then gimp him. But if you still struggle not getting grabbed (like i do haha) then this matchup is really tough as no character is more gay than a Falco in the lead.

-4nace
 

BSP

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Just wanted to say I was a tad over confident in Sonic for this matchup, I would say 60 : 40 Falco. Still not unwinnable for Sonic, but Falco clearly has the upper hand here.
 

da K.I.D.

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you cant kill what you cant hit. and dk really is one of those characters that cant really hit sonic. its rare, because sonic usually has to pull the bait and punish game, and most characters can hit him inbetween the weaving in and out of range. and i really feel like im fighting zelda in this matchup, where i just have to make the dk do something, and no matter what it is, i can punish it.

dk should very rarely be attempting down b. if he does it at the wrong time (which isnt hard, since because hes forced to do the hand slaps in twos) he eats 20-30 % from an ASC combo, which then puts him in the air, which is very bad for dk.

up and f tilting spindashes means that you are being dumb and predictable about them and/or committing too much to the same type of spindash.

if you can make him think that you are going to spindash, any thing that he can possibly use to defend himself from it, aside from... shield, can be punished obsurdedly easily

the only problem with this matchup is that its really easy to get into a groove of ****** the dks pants off, and then out of nowhere hell hit you with a bair to head butt to punch, and after you just put 120 damage on him, he just 30-deathed you in 3 hits.

you just have to make sure you are calculating your follow ups efficiently

wow... i didnt even know i knew this matchup this well
so lets talk about dk
 

JayBee

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i've played DK before, but i never thought of the matchup like that. I always reilied on the bait and punish tactic and it seemed great for dealing damage. I agree with putting DK in the air as all of his options can be covered and his airdodge isn't good. They kinda have to rely on tilts to stop our assault, and thier main approach in the air, with bairs, is probably the best they have to stop Sonic, but it has enough lag to shield grab. Cargo throw stage spikes can be teched so if you can do that then they can't kill oyu early. the only true advantage it seems is they are heavy so you have to deal move damage, but i dont think thier recovery is mixable enough to prevent harrassment once they get on stage again.

i guess it depends on how well/bad the sonic is with the spin dash specials. I'm not certain so i'm gonna say slight disadvantage. its probably the "easiest" heavy character matchup we have, and i say that cautiously, because maybe i haven't played a ******** DK yet. :confused:

I'd probably rather play a good DK than a good Bowser IMO, if i had to choose. at least they have a better Oos option and a projectile.\


i just thought of something: we had a poll for sonic's worst matchup, is it a problem to do one for what the boards think is his easiest? even if you only want to do a poll for the "easiest" matchup for like, the top 10 best characters in teh game?
 

da K.I.D.

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also note that when spaced correctly, nair is the only aerial sonic has that doesnt beat dks up b.

after it starts of course.
 

Chis

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Well it's not like we're ever going to complete these write ups, so yeah, DK.

Also Kojin, you'll escape really quickly if you just hold up while being carried by DK.
 

-Axis-

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Fighting a DK is a lot like fighting a Snake without grenades imo.

Their both impossible to kill and they both can create nearly impenetrable walls with their long ranged moves.

Not to mention their killing potential is insane.

EDIT: I realize this has contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion, but how much discussion goes on in here anyway these days?

Fair is too good in this matchup. That could be helpful I guess. Easy to hit DK from a short hop, chainable at low %'s, goes through his recovery (according to KID at least). I <3 it so much.
 

da K.I.D.

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things to watch out for, his bair has stupid range.

f tilt is pretty amazing for spacing,

down tilt combos into down b hand slap if it trips.

many dks will short hop into your grab range, trying to bait a shieldgrab, at which point they will head butt right above your grab. Which can net a kill from as low as 30% if you are near the edge from head butt to giant punch, f smash or even up smash.

up smash is retardedly powerful but i dont think it can hit a grounded sonic. be wary when in the air directly above dk

full charge spindash can some times hit dk between the hand slaps of his down b.

if you predict a down b, ASC combo is an automatic 25% or so. punish everything else with grab.

dks bair is really good offstage, its his main gimping tool.
 

da K.I.D.

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if he only does the slaps twice (like i said, they come in twos.) but if he does more after that, you cant grab him. his down b, for the most part, renders him ungrabable.
 

Browny

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lol i know :p

srsly though I've found dash attack is simple enough to time to hit through the slaps.

Also threaten with spincharging. if DK reacts with like ftilt/downb, spinshot-anything ftw. if he doesnt, hes gonna react somehow by jumping/shielding which is all good. Obviously dont do it from across the stage, give like half stage max spacing. jump cancel if he does nothing and repeat into an ASC or something to force a reaction. Or something like that
 

BlueTerrorist

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Well DK doesn't like Sonic too close.

DK's are going to try to space if anything. Any blocked/dodged attack can be punished as usual. Only thing DK has going for him in this match is range, power and yes speed.

So how do you fight this?

Get in close to him and pressure him. When your out of range, like the above poster said, force a reaction out of him, then get in. DK will be off balance if you can get in. He tries anything, your movement speed will dodge his attack easily and you'll be able to counterattack. That is, if you're close enough.

This match is even, probably 55:45 DK.

Stay away from smaller stages. This was kinda rushed, I'm in school. I would sure love to see more DK players input.
 

da K.I.D.

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I dont, theyll probably think its blasphemous that they would lose to sonic, if any of them want to be civil and discuss ideas and how to play the matchup instead of just numbers that would be great, but that so rarely happens... most just a pipe dream at this point.
 

Dark 3nergy

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maybe discuss someone else then? This discussion on DK hasnt gone anywhere in the past 2-3 weeks
 

Chis

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We've done each match up around 3 times or more now. The point of it going through them again now was mainly for people to complete the write up for that character (who hasn't got one yet). Now I know how time consuming it is it do one, especial when we all have busy life’s and things to do, but after a year and we still haven't completed this thing, let alone revamp some write ups is a sorry sight.

Yeah.
 

Espy Rose

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We've done each match up around 3 times or more now. The point of it going through them again now was mainly for people to complete the write up for that character (who hasn't got one yet). Now I know how time consuming it is it do one, especial when we all have busy life’s and things to do, but after a year and we still haven't completed this thing, let alone revamp some write ups is a sorry sight.

Yeah.
Sonic boards are incredibly lazy, Chis.

We don't even have a proper guide. dNES' guide is incomplete and mega-outdated.
 

Kinzer

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We've gone over Snake more times than ICs, if I had to choose between the two, it would be ICs.
 

JayBee

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not even gonna lie. that is one of the reasons i picked up meta. From what I've seen sonic can get away with approaching them for a while if he prepares it beforehad, IC's aren't that mobile, especially in the air, they have to get you as your coming to them. Spin Dashes don't seem too effective if they are both on the field, unless you are close enough for them not to react, and then you are probably in blizzard spam range. just an odd matchup that seems more annoying than its worth.
 

~TBS~

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Honestly. All MU's (IN MY OPINION PEOPLE) sucks for Sonic. I dont know how i even play em. Probably best to run the timer (I NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT ARRRGH)

Honestly, i dont know what to do in this MU. I play pretty safe man. ASC is pointless cause they can pivot you. Cant do anymoves without getting shieldgrabbed. I honestly just get lucky hits here and there and end up separating them. Idk, a well spaced bair does wonders for me in this match as it hits their shield and pokes are available.

Ugh, this mu is just so bad, i cant give straight, concrete ideas. Its like...everything you can do can be easily countered. Im not trying to get a Sonic 3stocked. :( CP YI that is all.
Solo climber is albeit easier, but i wouldnt underestimate em.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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Go BOKU on em. Hang around in spin form and wait for a mistake to hit. Once they're separated they're easier. It's tough to get in between the ice block blizzard crap but doable.
 
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I personally Never did like the sonic IC MU it just bothers me. But i would mostly just play the Hit and run game. As it seems the only safe thing to do against someone who can shield and grab you at the same time @_@. The only safe type of aerial i could see working against them is Fair. I mostly just power shield the Ice blocks and just try to jump over them. Overall I really aren't sure what Other type of things to do against IC's But those few things.
 

Camalange

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I know what we can do.


Let's update the thread so it doesn't say that Marth is a soft counter. There are numerous characters that are leagues harder. IC's being one of them for sure.

:093:
 

da K.I.D.

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as a solution to the llaziness issue, we can do what I suggested before and just put links in the OP to the really thick posts that describe a matchup or the posts that start discussion on certain characters. I know for a fact that I wrote veritable dissertations on Wolf, DK and i think Ike, and if you could just link to those posts, it would be easy to put in the OP.

The problem is that the people running this thread want all of their matchups packaged and written up in a nice cute organised format that most people (like me) dont care to do. but i know ive done multiple full write ups on how to beat certain characters over 3-4 posts on a given page.

and now theres the added problem that, since were lazy, nobody wants to go back and find all those informative posts to link them to the very front or very back of this thread.
 

Trent

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I don't think ICs are THAT bad.

I've played Lain 3 times, once when I was first getting into the tournament scene.

The next one felt pretty even, and I felt like I lost because Lain's a better player, not because of a match up.

Third time I SDed 6 times.
 
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