Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Camalange]

@Trent - Marth is trash by comparison.

 

[Espy Rose]

Quick question. Are these match up ratios updated? I was trying to look for Links, but I the link to the Link discussion took me to a post made back in '08.

Has anything changed in that, or any other match up, for that matter? And more importantly, are these updated discussions linked in the first post or not?

I'm just curious.

=====

Also, all of these odd numbers is just obnoxious. Why can't we just use whole numbers? 4:6, 5:5, 6:4, 7:3, and 3:7 are the only numbers we'd need, and write ups would only require a bit of explanation as to why.

Rather than have something at 45:55, maybe changing it to 6:4 or 5:5, along with a writeup that explains how it can sway to those from 45:55 would be better?

I dunno.

Just sayin' this because I'm starting to get more interested in our match up ratios.
I'd gladly somehow pick up the slack if people get interested in this again. *shrugs*

 

[Trent]

I would help as well. We need to re-discuss a lot of the high tiers, we don't even have a write up for Snake.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think the chart is up to date. The first post was last updated in October, I'm pretty sure we'd finished the last match-up (Lucario) before then, as the Lucario write up was last updated about Juneish. I think the main problem is that people's attitudes towards match-ups have changed a lot over time, with some of the older ones not having been revised for over a year now. Factor in too that other characters play-styles might have changed since all that time ago, AT's and strats discovered that change things, so what we have may be quite outdated.

I would restart the match-ups again. Build on whatever write-ups are already in place, as a lot of what was said is still relevant. Decide whether the match-ups is an advantage/neutral/disadvantage at a basic level once the write-up is done, then get bogged down with the particulars of ratios later.

I also agree with having whole numbers. Old match-up discussions lost their way a lot, with a good chunk of the discussions hinging around being pedantic over the ratios.

Iono though, I feel quite out of the loop lol.

 

[Player 7]

WhY DO EVRYONE comPLAIN ABUT SONIC BEING BAD???111 RAIAIARIARIARIA
SONIC IS FAST...FAST!!! rsrsrs
Amd Somic is 100-0 against MK if his uses his infinite that is down B cancel to cancel his taunt to cancel the cancel of the canceled tic momo cancel to finally cancel his canceled Foottstool infinite canceld rsrs!!

 

[ShadoFiend]

Ok honestly I've had harder times playing against Neo than Meep. Icees dont wall me off as well as Marth personally. Marth is still my worst match up..after wario.

But i honestly dont know what to say on the icees matchup other than keep them separated. Also when Nana is trying to recover and pop is trying to save her. I usually just grab popo instead of going after her and she usually dies. Hell Bthrow Popo to keep him further from doing that broken upB save.

 

[Chis]

Every time we discuss a match up it's kind of the same ratio so no, not really. I feel that divisions of five leave more leeway so we're not forced to choose a more extreme percentage due to limiting ourselves. But if enough people want it sure. The more help the merrier lol, so shall we start once we finish with the IC?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm fine with that Chis, although I still vouch for a "go by 10s" rule.

The point is to give a better generalization when looking at the charts. The write ups are where you can speak of a more "55:45" approach when dealing with a character that's 60:40.

That, and 5's just bother me, really. There's not much difference between 55:45 and 60:40.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Quick question. Are these match up ratios updated? I was trying to look for Links, but I the link to the Link discussion took me to a post made back in '08.

Has anything changed in that, or any other match up, for that matter? And more importantly, are these updated discussions linked in the first post or not?

I'm just curious.

=====

Also, all of these odd numbers is just obnoxious. Why can't we just use whole numbers? 4:6, 5:5, 6:4, 7:3, and 3:7 are the only numbers we'd need, and write ups would only require a bit of explanation as to why.

Rather than have something at 45:55, maybe changing it to 6:4 or 5:5, along with a writeup that explains how it can sway to those from 45:55 would be better?

I dunno.

Just sayin' this because I'm starting to get more interested in our match up ratios.
I'd gladly somehow pick up the slack if people get interested in this again. *shrugs*

they're just numbers though. it doesnt mean OMG OMG unwinnable if its just 40:60

 

[Espy Rose]

They're meant to be numbers which represent the difficulty of a certain match up. While using 55s and 45s here and there work (kinda), I just feel like they're just too vague to give a proper idea of a match up.

Besides, 40:60/60:40 is not really considered an unwinnable matchup, just disadvantaged.

I always saw this as the word equivalent:

Large Disadvantage = Very Hard = 30:70
Disadvantage = Hard = 40:60
Neutral = Normal = 50:50
Advantage = Easy = 60:40
Large Advantage = Very Easy = 70:30

Defining the numbers as Very Hard, Hard, Normal, Easy, and Very Easy is something that I've always been more leaned towards when it comes to match ups, and these multiples of 5 just skew the way I look at it.

Besides, 55:45s only, to me, seem to be 55:45s because of some small advantage over Sonic that just seems negligible.

Most people say 55:45s are practically even anyways, so I just never saw the point of those.

As for 65:35s. That just makes no **** sense to me. It's either incredibly difficult (30:70), or moderately difficult (40:60). What can there honestly be in a match up to skew a ratio to be in between those two numbers AND be reasonably just that something like a 40:60 or a 30:70 can't do?

It's just annoying.

Anyways, it was just a suggestion. I'd just personally like it at multiples of 10 rather than 5, but really have zero say in the matter, so *shrugs*

 

[B.A.M.]

i would concur wholeheartedly Espy; but my opinion is as things progress, we will have alot more 55:45 matchups going either way with Sonic. Thats my honest opinion. I personally always thought 55:45 meant the match is technically even; however one's tools have easier execution than the other. On a side note i personally have a harder time with ICs than Marth. SD>sword. Oh and just shadowing his *** offstage and reacting to him works too well for gimping.

ICs on the other hand requires no mishap or its a stock. Heck, too many times i have lost a stock to tripping. or being pivot grabbed outta something stupid like a spaced bair. Or blizzard desynch while popo grabs to name one of the many brilliant tatics desynching brings to the table. I just feel a good desynching ICs just covers so much options. lol. And i really dont think G&W should be 65:35, bair spaces beautifully(own that dair!), our jab>his jab (very important),SD>aerials ( just like marth), ftilt punishes his ftilt Dsmash and usmash, and when we play a reactive game we destroy his spacing (love walking,craq walk, and SDSC in this matchup). the character is just too easy to read majority of the time.

DK as KID has stated needs to be changed i believe. Also, the DDD matchup has been bothering me as well. Taking Malcom's advice from awhile back, is just too good in this matchup, add the fact we juggle DDD almost as good DK, Edgeguarding him is probably one of the easiest of the Top tier imo, and his dair is a big commitment (something of great importance when youre juggling an opponent) along with his fair being not being fast enough given the distance you should be at once u begin the juggle. It just seems its a near even matchup. We can gimp/kill offstage fairly easily in this match up. Sure he chaingrabs us to hell, but we make up the same damage with ALMOST the same ease during edgeugarding attempts/ juggles. Again this is a matchup i see as a 55:45 D3.
But iono im just stating my two cents. Hope it made some sense.

 

[Espy Rose]

You can't agree with me if you still want to believe matches should end in multiples of 5.
Nice try though.

 

[B.A.M.]

LOL uhh didnt i just say that? Nice try though.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Uhh let's get back on the topic at hand, nice try though.

I still honestly do not think the icees are harder than marth. Like honestly. Espy I know you've played mikehaze and Hylian.

Speed you've played Neo and Meep too. You two should know where I'm coming from.

 

[~TBS~]

Their both difficult MU's. @_@
When i fought Neo, people said if i edgeguarded him better i would have won it. But with Meep, it was much closer because he didnt know about the YI thingy. Well, that and Neo tripped into a dsmash. fffffff

I just dont know who's more difficult. They're both uphill battles either way. EyeEmOh

 

[Espy Rose]

Hmmm.

I have a more difficult time with Ice Climbers than with Marth.

There's an iota of error that you have to not cross, or you get infinite'd by ICs. At least with Marth, even if you screw up here or there, he's not going to kill you until forever and a half later.

Marth can't kill us. Half of the nonsense Ice Climbers do can mean a stock.

They're both pains in the *** though. Easily 40:60 or worse.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think ICs, MK, wario and snake are probably sonics worst matchups in that order.

I mean, lets think about this logically. how do you beat a character that can kill you from a grab at pretty much any point in time, with a character that literally CANT attack them with out going into that grab range? you can avoid and hit and run and mindgame all you want but it only take one dash attack that gets powershielded by popo and grabbed by nana, or one pivot grab out of anything you do to take a stock. The odds are quite obviously stacked against you.

 

[B.A.M.]

^ ^ ^ ^ i have played MikeHaze as well along tyrant's marth ( his is actually **** good as well) and i have always had a harder time with ICs than marth by far. you can be amazing the entire game, then get powershielded once or as KID said pivot grabbed and thats game. We dont have the range to battle those stupid dwarfs.

We dont really get trapped in marths juggle traps as other characters, and if hes not tipping hes not killing us for awhile. We also can SD through alot his moves just the same as we can with Gdub, and we have a decent gimp option on marth as well. I definitely dont think MK is our second worst matchup however. We have alot of pros in that matchup relative to some others.

 

[ShadoFiend]

**** all you fggts.

 

[WedginatorX]

I agree with ICs, I agree with Wario. I however cannot agree with Meta Knight and Snake. Meta Knight imo has to be an even matchup. Because as gay as he can be, that fgt MK gets destroyed by ASCs, our grabs, and fair thru his drill is too good. Although iunno. Maybe it's just easy for me because I'm in NJ reppin this 'hog against a state full of MKs (oh and drama. Can't forget drama. And more MKs.)
And snake... I just don't see how that's that bad. I admit that it's not in Sonic's favor, but Snake is easy to juggle and uthrow sets up for alot. Like a uthrow uair to juggling, utilt at low % or even uthrow usmash. he is hard to kill but his recovery is mad gimpable. And if you're smart and don't get tech chased like crazy and don't spin or roll into his stupid, OP, disjointed tilts... you should be able to win. Their weight gets them in this matchup. If a sonic player can correctly use the power of his weight and **** recovery against him, the player can win.

 

[Kinzer]

The only reason Wario is a bad(read; unwinnable) MU is because the @#$%er doesn't feel like dying <200%, while at the same time a Fart will kill you at ~100%, and if not that you'll probably get killed by FSmash/Uair at ~130%. I'm going to start playing the matchup correctly (defensively/reactively), because there ain't no way in Hell Sonic wins the matchup if he charges in headfirst and gets impatient/annoyed easily.

I've had to do it with SK92's Wario, I've had to do it with another well-respected Wario player, chances are this is just the way it's going to have to be done. Now I'll be happier if I can actually beat LeoFTW's Wario, I've had no success with the few times I have played him when he was in the mood to play Brawl. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree with ICs, I agree with Wario. I however cannot agree with Meta Knight and Snake. Meta Knight imo has to be an even matchup. Because as gay as he can be, that fgt MK gets destroyed by ASCs, our grabs, and fair thru his drill is too good. Although iunno. Maybe it's just easy for me because I'm in NJ reppin this 'hog against a state full of MKs (oh and drama. Can't forget drama. And more MKs.)

what you see as, Mk gets destroyed by grabs, and ASC, i see as Mk ***** me and the only usable moves I have are grab and ASC

And snake... I just don't see how that's that bad. I admit that it's not in Sonic's favor, but Snake is easy to juggle and uthrow sets up for alot. Like a uthrow uair to juggling, utilt at low % or even uthrow usmash. he is hard to kill but his recovery is mad gimpable. And if you're smart and don't get tech chased like crazy and don't spin or roll into his stupid, OP, disjointed tilts... you should be able to win. Their weight gets them in this matchup. If a sonic player can correctly use the power of his weight and **** recovery against him, the player can win.

this is what I read.

Sonic can win but he has to be out playing and out thinking the snake by a good margin for the vast majority of the match.


Thats kinda the definition of a bad matchup brah

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Meh i never did like the snake MU. becuz they mostly just camp with there jabs,tilts and nades and Upsmash in order to really stop you. it's annoying that MU but i think it's beatable it just might take a very different approach then the other characters. So far taking things slow vs him work kinda well. but IDK if this is the best option. Just felt like giving my thoughts to you guys to at least contribute.

 

[BSP]

Sonic has to outplay snake to win. His stupid tilts, nades, usmash, etc. all force you to do it. Not unwinnable, but certainly a challenge.

I feel that ICs are easier than marth. If you separate them, sonic has the speed to rack up damage and kill the cpu climber, making the stock much easier. Sonic can't blindly spindash or ASC to them of course, so he has to mix it up to split them up. If they desynch, Sonic has enough speed to punish desynched moves (ie blizzards), so go for it if you see the chance.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

, the DDD matchup has been bothering me as well. Taking Malcom's advice from awhile back, is just too good in this matchup, add the fact we juggle DDD almost as good DK, Edgeguarding him is probably one of the easiest of the Top tier imo, and his dair is a big commitment (something of great importance when youre juggling an opponent) along with his fair being not being fast enough given the distance you should be at once u begin the juggle. It just seems its a near even matchup. We can gimp/kill offstage fairly easily in this match up. Sure he chaingrabs us to hell, but we make up the same damage with ALMOST the same ease during edgeugarding attempts/ juggles. Again this is a matchup i see as a 55:45 D3.
But iono im just stating my two cents. Hope it made some sense.

I guess your forgetting DDD lives quite awhile, and Dair isnt always the aerial we rely on. Its bair and the grabs. Bthrow hurts alot, and is also a kill move. So if i grab you out of a mis placed spin dash your going over board with a bthrow. Yea sonic does have the tools to juggle D3, however keep in mind with proper DI/spacing and reads it'll be much tougher to touch a good DDD. As for edge guarding...thats a interesting topic related to the MU and can go either way depending on where the opponent is launched + the map they're playing on. What makes sonic tricky to gimp is the almost immediate boost in vertical height from his up b, plus he has other spin dash methods to get back, so the DDD would have to read these and punish accordingly. On the flip side i cant see sonic being able to very easily gimp DDD and his jumps, but i can see him harassing DDD with springs, possible fair/bair harassment or using them for stage meteors-- basically what you want is to make the DDD use his up+b to recover. Once you do that you basically can really rack damage on him and send him back out again to reset the situation. There is a possibility it could be 55:45 on some maps that favor sonic more than DDD[platforms, maybe YIB?], but for places like final d where theres no where to hide and lots of room to CG + being able to survive longer, it'd look more like 40:60. If it were map dependent then you'd have to make your bans/strikes count and know the MU on that particular stage.



So whats the best way for sonic to separate the ICs? Thats hopefully safe?

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres nothing that you can do thats safe against them.

except maybe spring dropping, that hits one of them and knocks them away.

 

[ShadowLink84]

theres nothing that you can do thats safe against them.

except maybe spring dropping, that hits one of them and knocks them away.

Side B and Aerial Down B is safe on block.
Fair is safe but you need to move past them and double jump afterwards or they WILL hit you.

Aerial DownB can lock them within their shields, I think you can U throw Iceclimbers and hit them both if Nana attempts to knock you out of it. I think Forward throw might work.

Th main issue isnt only that Sonic lacks the tools to be safe on block, the issue is getting in. The Ice climbers can spam de-synched blizzards all day and Sonic would have difficulty getting around it. Of course he CAN get through it and he is rewarded for it. He is one of the few characters that can very well kill Nana as soon as she is seperated from Popo.

Getting in is the main issue in itself, since Sonic can't aircamp and he lacks the same range as Marth and Metaknight to effectively pressure them.

The matchupp isn't terrible, but it does bring out one of Sonic's weaknesses which is the inability to zone the opponent and then pressure them.

Compounded with his lack of killing options and it becomes a bad matchup.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Killing is the least of the problems. Nana is pretty predictable desynched. Just pressure the hell out of her. You can kill one Icie. Especially one that has the mentality of a radish. DON'T go after Popo. Like ever. He can react and sadly enough outrange/prioritize us until Nana comes running back. Go RIGHT AFTER NANA. Not only can we rack up damage safely Popo can't get to us to stop it. We can punish Popo for trying to save Nana FAIRLY easily. You have to turn into a game of Save Nana's stupid *** bros. Brawl. I suggest that everyone...ever plays Icies. At least for a bit. It becomes much easier to dissect them. You don't need to be able to chaingrab to really see their weaknesses.

People also never really take the time to discuss non-desynched/chaingrab aspects of the matchup. Utilt can catch us out of PRETTY much anything and leads into a grab/SHUair. Speaking of the Uair that thing is an *******. SOOO underrated. Against characters like Sonic I won't even go for the grab. I'll zone with Ice Blocks and Blizzards and interrupt with Uair and Utilt. Grabs are more of a bonus in this matchup. I believe their Nair can **** us up out of PRETTY much anything. Like..if we fair at them they can just nair. Due to 6 frame lag between the two you might knock ONE away but you'll get hit too and be unable to follow. Dair loses to Uair. Our best option is to take advantage of our Bair. It beats theirs like every time and is great for us to follow up. In fact Bair beats their Nair I think. Bair and Uair are the only really safe options in the air from THEIR front. Their backs in the air are the weak spot. Even their Dair can be a problem if you air chase. So... yeah. Basically NEVER Dair near them. Like even lagless Dair. Good Icies either grab you or know it'll be lagless and Uair through it. Bair like a madman and don't use Fair as an approach if they have time to nair. It's great for keeping them seperated though.

 

[Browny]

SL first sonic main to get bbr status? kel doesnt count since he seems to only use MK lol

nice though, i guess those hundreds of wall-of-text posts in the tier discussion thread finally paid off I wonder if I should bother trying for it too even though I dont go to tournaments anymore lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Killing is the least of the problems. Nana is pretty predictable desynched. Just pressure the hell out of her. You can kill one Icie. Especially one that has the mentality of a radish. DON'T go after Popo. Like ever. He can react and sadly enough outrange/prioritize us until Nana comes running back. Go RIGHT AFTER NANA. Not only can we rack up damage safely Popo can't get to us to stop it. We can punish Popo for trying to save Nana FAIRLY easily. You have to turn into a game of Save Nana's stupid *** bros. Brawl. I suggest that everyone...ever plays Icies. At least for a bit. It becomes much easier to dissect them. You don't need to be able to chaingrab to really see their weaknesses.

Nana is controlled by a level 9 AI iirc. Of course she is predictable when she is de-synched from popo, she hast to try and fight by herself.
And as I said earlier, the issue IS killing, sure once we get rid of Nana it becomes that much easier, but you still have to dealw ith the fact that Sonic is a character that completely is lacking viable killing options.
There are a good number of matchups that Sonic does poorly in, not because of his ability to zone, but simply because he CANNOT set up for the kill.
Of course this issue doesn't matter once you rack up the damage, but for Sonic who doesn't exactly have the weight of Snake or the range of Marth, this only serves to increase the risk to himself over time.
Even more so against the higher tiered characters like the Ice Climbers.

People also never really take the time to discuss non-desynched/chaingrab aspects of the matchup. Utilt can catch us out of PRETTY much anything and leads into a grab/SHUair. Speaking of the Uair that thing is an *******. SOOO underrated. Against characters like Sonic I won't even go for the grab. I'll zone with Ice Blocks and Blizzards and interrupt with Uair and Utilt. Grabs are more of a bonus in this matchup. I believe their Nair can **** us up out of PRETTY much anything. Like..if we fair at them they can just nair. Due to 6 frame lag between the two you might knock ONE away but you'll get hit too and be unable to follow. Dair loses to Uair. Our best option is to take advantage of our Bair. It beats theirs like every time and is great for us to follow up. In fact Bair beats their Nair I think. Bair and Uair are the only really safe options in the air from THEIR front. Their backs in the air are the weak spot. Even their Dair can be a problem if you air chase. So... yeah. Basically NEVER Dair near them. Like even lagless Dair. Good Icies either grab you or know it'll be lagless and Uair through it. Bair like a madman and don't use Fair as an approach if they have time to nair. It's great for keeping them seperated though.

Don't even mention Dair, its easily Sonic's WORST aerial by far. not only due to the range and priority, but also becaus eof how it works.

you Dair, you'll probably get grabbed. Sonic really does not want anyone landcamping him.

Ice blocks arent too much of an issue since Sonic can very easily avoid them, blizzard is much more difficult, it stays out longer, has a nice vertical range and has very little cooldown in between the blizzards.

Bair does not beat out their Nair or their Fair, unless you hit with below Sonic's leg where the disjoint is, you just can't go toe to toe with them directly in such a manner.

Pretty much, it cements what i said earlier.
yeah once Sonic gets in he gets a definite reward.
The problem is actually getting in, it is very problematic.

 

[Browny]

umad if you calling sonics dair his worst aerial

theres more to attacks than simply hitting with them you know... Its servers a much greater purpose as an anti-juggle, way to switch up your recovery and a safe, quick way to get to ground before the enemy after an attempted spring follow up. Oh and it can also KO at low %'s if people get hit by the sweetspot offstage.

nairs got nothing on that lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Saying that Sonic's dair is a bad move isn't far from the truth, but that doesn't means it's trash either.

One of my favorite juggle mixups is to upair someone high into the air, spring past them (usually making them air dodge), and dairing into them from above.

You'd be surprised by how often this works for me. And if the opponent isn't named Wario, you STILL get to the ground faster without getting touched; not to mention another opportunity to punish because now, you have ground control.

 

[infomon]

One of my favorite juggle mixups is to upair someone high into the air, spring past them (usually making them air dodge), and dairing into them from above.

lolol I loooooove doing this, because ppl never know as well as I do, how high they're gonna go when I up-throw them... So in the first stock or two you've attempted Uthrow > Uairs (perhaps successfully, perhaps just to get it in their head), then last stock they're at mid-ish %s and you Uthrow them and they "know" you're gonna spring > Uair so they use their Dair as you've sprung past them and you just Dair them lolol

also.... SL is in the BBR !!?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Pheonix]

I hate this match-up with a burning passion. But as of recent i've been playing a lot more campy against the Ice Grabbers and having to run the clock in order to defeat them SAFELY.

Good stages in my opinion are Smashville and Yoshi's Island. Or any other stage where you can spring safely onto a platform to avoid being grabbed.

One thing i do have to say is DONT OVERUSE SPIN DASHES. They can be grabbed out of/stopped fairly easily so dont abuse it. Its nice to throw one in every once in a while to try to get a precent lead or get even a larger lead.

Its obvious you have to get rid of Nana first, but after you do dont be so quick to get rid of Popo, it would be tons easier to run the clock against a Solo Ice Climber rather than killing him and starting the whole process again.

The way I now play this match-up is purely hit and run. Get a precent lead then proceed with caution, pressure the IC's with empty jumps, SDR off the platform into a SDC, while have a safe distance from them of course.

NEVER use moves like Diar, Usmash, Utilt, or even Dtilt (Its less risky than the other 3 but still pretty risky) you're just asking to lose a stock.

Thats all i can think of typing right now, its 2:20 AM lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

umad if you calling sonics dair his worst aerial

theres more to attacks than simply hitting with them you know... Its servers a much greater purpose as an anti-juggle, way to switch up your recovery and a safe, quick way to get to ground before the enemy after an attempted spring follow up. Oh and it can also KO at low %'s if people get hit by the sweetspot offstage.

It isn't safe to use for getting to the ground unless the opponet isn the air with you as well.
Otherwise, you'll just get landcamped and punished afterwards.
The predictable trajectory makes i sort of like FAlco's Side B Yes it is fast, but you practically say where you are going to land.

nairs got nothing on that lol

Combo' from side B and down B at least.

Saying that Sonic's dair is a bad move isn't far from the truth, but that doesn't means it's trash either.

not trash, but that it is his worst aerial.

One of my favorite juggle mixups is to upair someone high into the air, spring past them (usually making them air dodge), and dairing into them from above.

*Uairs you in response*
Screw that the spring is a TERRIBLE projectile.

You'd be surprised by how often this works for me. And if the opponent isn't named Wario, you STILL get to the ground faster without getting touched; not to mention another opportunity to punish because now, you have ground control.

Its a bad move.
You're placing yourself above the opponent and then using a move with high start up and predictable trajectory.

Its the vertical version of Fox's side B.

 

[Espy Rose]

not trash, but that it is his worst aerial.

Never said it wasn't.

*Uairs you in response*
Screw that the spring is a TERRIBLE projectile.

Its a bad move.
You're placing yourself above the opponent and then using a move with high start up and predictable trajectory.

Its the vertical version of Fox's side B.

When did I say to use upB as a projectile?

I really don't think you really don't know what you're talking about, honestly. It's all good though, you don't play Sonic in tournaments, so you lack proper application.

Of course it's not going to work when you're trying it a billion times in a set. Like it or not, SL, people do air dodge, especially in response to Sonic's upB chases in midair.

It's not viable in many situations, and it's not incredibly reliable, but it works when you use it just right.

It's more or less like Sonic's nair in terms of usage.

 

[Tesh]

Dair isn't just an attack, its how sonic moves around as well. Between spinshotting and dashing for horizontal speed and spring/dair for vertical speed, its as if sonic can quickly renew his assault from a new angle at any time.

From high enough above the stage you can use the momentum with other moves, it kills off the top and the sides. It also has a bit of a disjoint at least, unlike nair. So it will actually beat some stuff.

I love nair, but its just an attack. I don't feel sonic's mobility would be complete without a dive attack, though I would rather have ganons or gnw.

 

[Kinzer]

G&W's Keyblade is just as punishable as Sonic's Dair.

Ganon's Stomp at least does 23% @#$%ing percent. That move alone does more than Sonic's fully-charged FSmash for God's sake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

G&W's Keyblade is just as punishable as Sonic's Dair.

Ganon's Stomp at least does 23% @#$%ing percent. That move alone does more than Sonic's fully-charged FSmash for God's sake.

Its disjointe, has less lag time when NOT autocanceled, and releases an airblast upon landing.
Sonic shoul ahve had THAT as a dair, and it spikes.

Dair isn't just an attack, its how sonic moves around as well. Between spinshotting and dashing for horizontal speed and spring/dair for vertical speed, its as if sonic can quickly renew his assault from a new angle at any time.

From high enough above the stage you can use the momentum with other moves, it kills off the top and the sides. It also has a bit of a disjoint at least, unlike nair. So it will actually beat some stuff.

I love nair, but its just an attack. I don't feel sonic's mobility would be complete without a dive attack, though I would rather have ganons or gnw.

Its not a good dive because its just, well, bad.
Most opponent's can predict the trajectory based on how you're facing.
Its why i a Sonic ditto, you do NOT Dair because you'll an Fsmash.
Same when facing Ike or marth or Mk.

The Disjoint is crap as well, it wont beat out anything worth mentioning outside of ROB's Uai, and he'd Nair you anyway for it.

Sonic just isn't ana ttacker, he punishes, so its rather useless IMO because it just doesn't do enough
It should have spiked or at least had a lowe startup.
Which definitely hinders it.

Never said it wasn't.

So we agree.

When did I say to use upB as a projectile?

Didnt you say you spring past them to force the air dodge? I am probably making an error in the situation I am imagining.

I really don't think you really don't know what you're talking about, honestly. It's all good though, you don't play Sonic in tournaments, so you lack proper application.

Um.
Through Spring through the summer I played Sonic and garnered 17th place with him on average.
I need practice some more.

So no, you're smoking something if you think I dont play Sonic in tournaments.
Funny enough, if I use my actual gamer tag in tournament I do terribly =(
Dair is only good when he opponent is in the air, because they cannot land camp you when you use it.

Of course it's not going to work when you're trying it a billion times in a set. Like it or not, SL, people do air dodge, especially in response to Sonic's upB chases in midair.

Why would they?
They can always just move behind Sonic since his mobility is crap.

It's not viable in many situations, and it's not incredibly reliable, but it works when you use it just right.

It's more or less like Sonic's nair in terms of usage.

yeah. They are both bad.
It CAN be used, dont get me wrong I do agree it has its usages, but otherwise, its just poor.
You should use it against a Metaknight that tries to shuttleloop you off the top of the screen. Funniest thing to see.

 

[Browny]

now youre just making me mad.

"It isn't safe to use for getting to the ground unless the opponet isn the air with you as well.
Otherwise, you'll just get landcamped and punished afterwards."

go watch some videos of X's sonic. whether you like it or not, he PROVES dair is a good attack because he doesnt just throw it out where he can be punished, majority of the time it is completley safe and puts him in a very favourable position on the ground where the enemy is forced to land with sonic waiting. No smart player is ever going to dair while the opponent cant just sit there and fsmash, thats a completely ridiculous hypothetical situation. Lets apply that logic to idk, how about metaknights tornado where he approaches you in a neutral position hovers it above your shield, doesnt change directions and ends it high up, directly in front of you. wow its turned into a completely unsafe, garbage mobe.

Dair just complements his mobility so much... In case you didnt know, sonic not only has the fastest running speed, he has the fastest vertical rise and equal fastest drop which isnt uncontrollable. Without the dair using spring as an escape mechanism, or ever for that matter makes it very unsafe. Its like snakes nades to an extent. Theyre actually not very good by themselves, but when you take into account the fact that you have to approach snake at some time during the match, and his tilts/jab/pivot grab make damaging him very difficult, his nades suddenly become amazing and complement his character infinitely. imagine if you never had to approach snake?

what does nair do... 11%, meciocre knockback and combos out of spindash, while bair and fair do which both do more damage which is about the only time its ever actually safe to use it. dair is way more useful overall, even if you only actually HIT with it once, it will save you a ton of damage and makes followups a lot more safer/spring way more useful than without it.

tl;dr youre never going to convince me dair is his worst aerial. watch X's sonic and TAKE NOTES. It doesnt matter if you think his playstyle is '08 or anything, the undeniable fact is that it WORKS, which is worth infinitely more than any argument youve put forward.