Pokedex Entry 10: King Dedede

That one penguin.

Just some input I have, we have a pretty good D3 guy in the smash crew here.

Ivysaur does okay...Razor Leaf bothers D3 from afar since it cuts through Waddle crap and continues to hit D3. The chaingrab bothers Ivysaur a lot though, since it is pretty much a guaranteed way to get Ivysaur off stage, which is where he doesn't want to be. However, Bullet Seed is an amazing punisher and could very well be described as an "equalizer" since it has the potential to do 50% to the fat penguin. If Ivysaur can tell when D3 wants to try and grab, spotdodge to BS is very effective.

Ftilt is what d3 will use to space, it outranges ivy's bair, although ivy can just jump over the ftilt and bair/fair d3, or short hop razor leaf.

Ivysaur just wants to keep its distance and slowly rack up damage, and then switch off to Charizard to kill. As long as Ivy can avoid getting grabbed, Ivy really should be fairly safe.

Charizard. Charizard charizard charizaaaaaaaaaard. I really REALLY like charizard here. The only thing that D3 really has on Zard is that ******** chaingrab. In comes Flamethrower and Rock Smash. D3 does not have an effective way around those two attacks. Both screw with Waddles and d3's huge frame work toward zard's favor.

charizard also has a larger grab range than d3. d3 can obviously chaingrab but zard can also do quite a bit out of his throws, so d3 cannot dismiss that. things like bair and perhaps even fair are pretty liable to shieldgrabs.

squirtle...well he can't be chaingrabbed so that's good. squirtle is really really mobile. I don't think d3 can really keep up with squirtle, especially a good player where you can't predict where squirtle will be. there are ways for squirtle to get around d3's grab.

squirtle has a decent grab if he can get inside, and it'll likely lead to a nice chain of attacks from squirtle that d3 will have a hard time escaping.

bair and nair are d3's only attacks that will save him when squirtle chains stuff in the air since the other moves have some lag or have unhelpful hitboxes so yeah.

squirtle has to play patiently so that when he does get an attack in, he can continue the series and then go back to playing safely.

yep

something VERY notable is that squirtle's water gun will totally **** with a d3 trying to cancel the super jump near the ledge

thread on dedede board

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5377772#post5377772

I agree with all of this.

This is argueably one of PT's easiest fights in the Top Tier. Ivysaur does, as you said, okay. Ivysaur's got the tools to stay away from a grab, but Dedede has superior range on the ground. Ftilt'n his Ftilt is a safe option, and I think that you get your next one in faster?

Like you said though, Dedede just doesn't like Bullet Seed. One missed grab, one mis-timed chaingrab, and you can easily get in Bullet Seed. Bair walls against Dedede when he's near the ledge seemed to be effective for me las time I played one. Dedede's jumps, singularly, aren't very impressive, and his horizontal movement isn't particularly effective, either.

Charizard's really awesome, though. Basically what you said. IMO, Dedede is really easy to get with a Bair off-stage.

Squirtle, however, is at a disadvantage. He can't be chain-grabbed, but I think that Dedede can get in a free Ftilt if he Dthrows you. His Bair is scary to Squirtle, its huge and strong. Dedede's superior ground game is just a lot for Squirtle to handle, considering that everything he uses is disjointed.

At this time, I think:

Squirtle: Disadvantage
Ivysaur: Neutral
Charizard: Advantage

At worst for Squirtle and Ivysaur.

i think you can tech the dthrow and avoid any of d3's follow ups.

glad to see you agree with me retro, i respect your opinion a lot

I'm not the best D3 player, but I'm the best in my town (Won local tourny, last match was a MK, and boy was he ******** >.>)

What you have to remember for Ivy and Charizard, is of course the CG, if they know how to do it, your going to die. Ivy has been explained basically, but I know a few ways to get around Charazard's moves.

Flamethrower- This is your best move with D3, outranges the Ftilt, and gets rid of waddles. Be careful if they spam Waddle Dee Toss, if they get a gordo, it'll hurt. Overall, the hardest move to get past, but an air game from D3 could in theory get past it, I'd need to test.
Rock smash- This one is interesting, but if you throw a waddle into it, before it hits you, you can rither get Charazard out of it, or reduce his DI due to hitting the waddle dee. Also, if you waft this move, or the D3 shield rolls behind you, your in trouble for the CG. And beware CG mindgames, I do them sometimes, and its a great way to get a free Fsmash in, and that can KO you at around 60%.

Squirtle is easy to deal with, Inhale will mess up his combos just like with MK, and if your in withdraw and D3 minihop inhales you and you go off the edge of the stage, you go into freefall, so beware. Also, if your hit while in withdraw by a Fsmash or Jethammer and your near the edge of the stage, good luck getting back.

Withdraw is pretty much Squirtle's worst special. I don't know many people that use it very often.

Charizard likes to grab people, too. He's not going to go just launch Flamethrower and wait for you to attack him. Once you've been pushed back a decent distance (Or if it misses) Charizard is going to cancel this thing. Aerial approaches with Dedede seem kind of difficult; Flamethrower can be angled upwards and Dedede has low vertical jumps and horizontal speed. And again, its not like Charizard is going to just let that happen.

Yes, Dedede has a chain-grab. Ivysaur does well enough considering that is has capable tools (Bair, Ftilt, Dtilt) to stay away from the grabs. Razor Leaf's beat Waddles anyway, so you're going to have to do something different than just wait for Ivysaur to approach (Which is unlikely).

I know a good Dedede. I'll schedule some matches with him and report back if I find anything new.

OK, as reminder, no walk off stage is a 100% random starter, and only castle siege and Delfino plaza have walk offs that are there part time. Avoid these stages PTs. If Dedede is primarily grab game, Dedede=Charizard. If not, gee, it is a race to get the first grab. If Charizard gets it, Dedede is in a world of hurt, and vice versa.

except charizard can do more things outside of grab range, and his range is larger.

(looks at waddle dee toss), In what way exactly?

(looks at tier list), If we get any advantages here, are you gonna recheck Meta knight again?

Charizard92 said:

(looks at waddle dee toss), In what way exactly?

(looks at tier list), If we get any advantages here, are you gonna recheck Meta knight again?

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Why would PT's matchup against dedede change our chances against MK? They are completely different characters.

In general, PT seems to screw D3 up. Also, Ivy's BS can be used to end D3's chain grab if they're just a little bit slow on the regrab.

tcranter said:

Why would PT's matchup against dedede change our chances against MK? They are completely different characters.

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Oh, I thought that since we actually tear apart a top tier character we might reevaluate another one we had at an advantage during our first conclusion.

Firstly, this isn't a "tearing apart."

Secondly, Dedede is infamous for having trouble with match-ups. I mean, IC's were good on Sheik in Melee, but that didn't change how they fared versus the rest of Top Tier.

Retro Gaming said:

Firstly, this isn't a "tearing apart."

Secondly, Dedede is infamous for having trouble with match-ups. I mean, IC's were good on Sheik in Melee, but that didn't change how they fared versus the rest of Top Tier.

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A: ???!!!

B: Typo, fixed it

C: didn't know that.

I'm looking at Charizard 60:40, Ivysaur 50:50, and Squirtle 40:60 right now. That's not a "tearing apart," just a slight advantage. Very slight, basically neutral.

^ Now You Make More Sense!

yeah, that's how i see it too.

Do we have a thread in the DDD board?

Oh nvm, it's empty though; as usual.

To be honest its better if they post in this thread. Much more helpful for referencing back.

Yeah so it can vanish like the other matchup thread; the one I wanted to reference back on, but couldn't find.

then again, so will that one.

Retro Gaming said:

I'm looking at Charizard 60:40, Ivysaur 50:50, and Squirtle 40:60 right now. That's not a "tearing apart," just a slight advantage. Very slight, basically neutral.

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How is this a slight advantage? The numbers seem perfectly even to me.

Charizard lives significantly longer than Squirtle, Squirtle can be "sacrificed" at high percentages. This completely skips over the disadvantage. You can play a heavy "Ivyzard" game with barely any Squirtle. I still do that sometimes versus characters like Marth.

Excellence said:

How is this a slight advantage? The numbers seem perfectly even to me.

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Squirtle can be near-completely unused in this matchup if the PT manages his rotation correctly, and maximize Charizard's appearence.. If those are the numbers, it will be a 55/45.

Onxy said:

Squirtle can be near-completely unused in this matchup if the PT manages his rotation correctly, and maximize Charizard's appearence.. If those are the numbers, it will be a 55/45.

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DDD's standing grab has more reach than Charizard's right? If that's the case, Charizard should be much trouble because DDD should be able to CG him to the end of the stage or platform; reguardless if charizard allows him the grab or not.

We just got done playing and you rotated after you got in a DThrow with Squirtle which was pretty nice, except that I managed to punish your Ivysaur because of the time it took to switch. I think the same could be said for DDD, especially because he's heavier than Wario and less likely to go flying and he can chaingrab for assured damage.

On a side note, don't pokemon get fatigued? I would think the decreased damage and knockback would make DDD a nightmare to deal with since he's already tough to KO.

Charizard has the greater grab range according to the first post. I'm not sure since I don't play Dedede a lot anymore.

You switch before you get into fatigue, naturally. You want to throw Dedede away horizontally, since that will take him much more time to return with. Switching resets stale moves, as well. If Onxy got punished that means he Dthrow'd for the switch too early.

Fatigue isn't honestly a huge issue, at least for me, because rarely do either my stock or the opponent's stock last longer than...say 1:30. Matches don't take longer than 4-5 minutes. And all three Pokemon have moves that are efficient at creating switching room.

Zard's standing grab has slightly more range than D3's, I just tested it in Training Mode. I got a lot of instances where either character would miss the grab a few times and then land it, so I think it's dependant on the opponent's stance. Regardless, both grabs are pretty similar in range.

Excellence at what percent were you that Onxy Dthrowed and switched?

And yes, a simple average is not representative of how well Pokemon Trainer does in a matchup. The reason why is the same reason why Zeldasheik has better matchups than either Zelda or Sheik.

Don't mention those crappy matches we just had. The lag was just as bad as it was last time. I know you only mentioned the Squirtle part, but still.....

I don't remember me getting punished...

Zard's grab > Dedede's

Onxy said:

Don't mention those crappy matches we just had. The lag was just as bad as it was last time. I know you only mentioned the Squirtle part, but still.....

I don't remember me getting punished...

Zard's grab > Dedede's

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I still don't see it, maybe another PT can play me for some experience, because I'm actually interested in PT 0_0..

Wario pushed Ivysaur to the right side of Final D, I used Fsmash to send her off stage and tried to ledgeguard you but that went terribly wrong because you didn't die and I sorta did >_>

Well, if Charizard's grab range is longer, then I my arguement is gone. x_x I thought since most people don't play good DDDs they didn't realize that he isn't supposed to DThrow > Dash Grab, but DThrow > Shield Grab, which can cancel quick escape attacks and has greater range than his dash grab.

The difference in grab range is slight.

Excellence I would play you if Wifi weren't giving me a "the server is down or some****" error code.

Wifi or the Friend Finder? Friend Finder is down for everyone, unfortunately, but there is always PM. There are a few things I want to work out with PT.

No, I mean my Wifi Connection.

Wait a second - isn't this the PT vs King Dedede? You don't use DDD, Excellence - or you just never told me?

For the CG, it DOES NOT MATTER if I do a shield cancel, Shield grab, or Dash grab, its impossible to escape if done correctly. Tested it on a Marth, Snake, and Sonic, it does not matter, the Shield cancel just is the easiest one to do.

Onxy said:

Wait a second - isn't this the PT vs King Dedede? You don't use DDD, Excellence - or you just never told me?

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I used to main King Dedede when Brawl first started and I TRIED to tell everyone how good he was back when everyone was saying he was fat and slow, but no one listened and now look! To answer your question, I sort of just never told you.

MorphedChaos said:

For the CG, it DOES NOT MATTER if I do a shield cancel, Shield grab, or Dash grab, its impossible to escape if done correctly. Tested it on a Marth, Snake, and Sonic, it does not matter, the Shield cancel just is the easiest one to do.

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Yes it does matter. If you miss the dash grab you have to go through the rolling animation from missing, which makes you vulnerable to spotdodges. If you do the shield grab you no longer have that animation and can regrab after the spot dodge to catch opponents off guard. The Shield Cancel also has MORE RANGE, and is HARDER to perform based on controller imputs.

Yes, if you waff the dash grab, you can get punished, but if you can CG someone, All 3 work if you do it right.

MorphedChaos said:

Yes, if you waff the dash grab, you can get punished, but if you can CG someone, All 3 work if you do it right.

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Shield Cancel is also safer because it can sometimes manually power shield against moves that are otherwise too fast to react on. So for all purposes, it's better.

Similarly, I recommend doing the same for all sort of grabbing lolgames that you intend to try with Charizard or Squirtle.

Yes, but Like I said, Either of the 3 work. And the Shield Cancel makes it harder to CG some characters, like Sonic.