Pokedex Entry 10: King Dedede

[Onxy]

Yus!

Lol!
10 lols...

 

[Steeler]

Well iduno if the whole matchup should be decided on a match between onxy and someone that hadn't played dedede in a while...

anyway, something i want to point out:

ivysaur forces dedede to approach.

 

[Tien2500]

Well iduno if the whole matchup should be decided on a match between onxy and someone that hadn't played dedede in a while...

anyway, something i want to point out:

ivysaur forces dedede to approach.

Yes and Dedede in general has trouble approaching Ivy although Ftilts range is helpful (it can cancel razorleaf). But if Dedede grabs you once you're off stage unless he messes up and his bair can be used to edgeguard well. The question is can a wellplayed Ivysaur avoid the grab a whole match? It may be feasible and if so Ivy may have an advantage here.

 

[Steeler]

I think it's feasible. Ivysaur has some of the best tools for it out of the whole Brawl roster. Regardless a grab isn't necessarily death for Ivysaur. This isn't Falco's chainspike we are talking about here.

Ivysaur can shorthop the Leaf over D3's ftilt.

Something to consider: Ivysaur can bait a grab out of D3 and punish it severely by spotdodging to Bullet Seed. If Ivy knows the grab is coming, D3 is probably in trouble.

Something i want to look into is D3's roll range. Because I think rolling is the only way that D3 is going to be effectively avoiding/countering spaced Flamethrowers and Rock Smashes. And Charizard can just bait a roll behind him and bair or Rock Smash backwards. At that point it's a mindgame but D3 doesn't have that many options against Zard in these situations.

 

[Excellence]

I think it's feasible. Ivysaur has some of the best tools for it out of the whole Brawl roster. Regardless a grab isn't necessarily death for Ivysaur. This isn't Falco's chainspike we are talking about here.

Ivysaur can shorthop the Leaf over D3's ftilt.

Something to consider: Ivysaur can bait a grab out of D3 and punish it severely by spotdodging to Bullet Seed. If Ivy knows the grab is coming, D3 is probably in trouble.

Something i want to look into is D3's roll range. Because I think rolling is the only way that D3 is going to be effectively avoiding/countering spaced Flamethrowers and Rock Smashes. And Charizard can just bait a roll behind him and bair or Rock Smash backwards. At that point it's a mindgame but D3 doesn't have that many options against Zard in these situations.

Grabbing is more of a problem for Ivysaur than you think, especially because King Dedede could end it with a FThrow which forces a Ivysaur's hand.

Shorthopping Dedede's FTilt is not an option when they're spaced so that Ivysaur is hitting the head of the mallet. If she does jump to that height I think I'd be easy to shield, spotdodge, and punish.

King Dedede's spinning mallet (AAA) will cancel Rock Smash. Space Flamethrowers can be rolled and followed up with a grab from King Dedede. Dedede is restricted some distanced play here, but I don't think Charizard has any sort of advantage.

 

[Tien2500]

Ivysaur can I believe though full jump and bair dedede on an ftilt though. Maybe nair too.

Anyways to answer the question before about why Dedede is such a high tier when he has some awful matchups; It depends who your good matchups and bad are against.

Dedede has a good matchup against Snake (arguable 60:40. Neutral at worst.) which is much more significant than having an awful matchup against Toon Link. He also has a good matchup I believe against G&W and I think a close to neutral matchup against MK. (60:40 at worst). He has an advantage against ROB, and an even matchup with Marth. He completely shuts down Wario. Out of the top characters the only true counter is Falco. So this is why Dedede is top tier despite having many counters. He has good matchups where it matters most.

 

[Excellence]

Ivysaur can I believe though full jump and bair dedede on an ftilt though. Maybe nair too.

Anyways to answer the question before about why Dedede is such a high tier when he has some awful matchups; It depends who your good matchups and bad are against.

Dedede has a good matchup against Snake (arguable 60:40. Neutral at worst.) which is much more significant than having an awful matchup against Toon Link. He also has a good matchup I believe against G&W and I think a close to neutral matchup against MK. (60:40 at worst). He has an advantage against ROB, and an even matchup with Marth. He completely shuts down Wario. Out of the top characters the only true counter is Falco. So this is why Dedede is top tier despite having many counters. He has good matchups where it matters most.

Using Bair will get Ivysaur killed because a full jump is easy to see and shield to shieldgrab. Nair is completely avoidable, when Oynx and I played I just shieldgrabbed those and followed with chaingrabs.

Most of what you said is true, except for Mr. Game & Watch. As someone who actually mains the two-dimensional *******, you should know the match-up is 70-30 in Mr. Game & Watches favor. So, yeah... you're completely wrong. =D

 

[PkTrainerCris]

tien is right, DDD worst matchups are in the mid tier or below, btw, i think charizard vs DDD is 55:45 or 60:40, and charizard has a slightly longer grab range, so hes going to shieldgrab the same or more than DDD, and char's attacks are not all so laggy, and i dont think dtilt can be shieldgrabbed

 

[PkTrainerCris]

sorry for double post, but there are some points i want to say :
1. ivysaur can razor leaf above the ftilt, she just has to di backwards while razor leaving, if shes not far enough already
2. ivy's nair can hit the shield, then king DDD, its multihits and low time between each hit allow it
3. a grab is NOT a stock lost for ivysaur

 

[Excellence]

tien is right, DDD worst matchups are in the mid tier or below, btw, i think charizard vs DDD is 55:45 or 60:40, and charizard has a slightly longer grab range, so hes going to shieldgrab the same or more than DDD, and char's attacks are not all so laggy, and i dont think dtilt can be shieldgrabbed

Just because Charizard has a slight range advantage on his grab doesn't mean he's going to shieldgrab more. Range and distance are the factors of who or what gets shield grabbed. King Dedede's attacks are all long range and can rarely be shieldgrabbed. Charizard on the other hand doesn't have the luxury of range and has to make up for it with Flamethrower and Rock Smash. Both of which are easy to get around.

sorry for double post, but there are some points i want to say :
1. ivysaur can razor leaf above the ftilt, she just has to di backwards while razor leaving, if shes not far enough already
2. ivy's nair can hit the shield, then king DDD, its multihits and low time between each hit allow it
3. a grab is NOT a stock lost for ivysaur

I've already argued against this. Razor Leaf above FTilt requires a full jump or one high enough to allow Dedede time to get near you and grab the hell out of you. So what if she DIs back, she just gives Dedede more space and steadily pushes her towards the edge of the stage where she'll have a hard time surviving and coming back.

Ivysaur's Nair can be completely shielded then shield grabbed before she can do anything. I've done it ever time I was Nair and it has yet to result in a negative outcome for me. That's basically like asking for Dedede to push you off the stage.

A grab may not be a stock loss for Ivysaur, but it's pretty close. She gets off the stage and torn apart by Dedede's Bair and/or edgehog. Then if she does make it back, where is she? At the end of the stage where she has to fight her way to the center.

 

[Onxy]

You can't shield grab a well spaced Bair. Everytime I tried to space it, it wouldn't work well because of the; well, you guessed it. Nair isn't easy either, because I could do it from behind you.

 

[Excellence]

Bair isn't what I was talking about, there wasn't much I could do against those. Nair can be easily shieldgrabbed and if you start to DI behind me, I'll move or try UTilt.

 

[Onxy]

Well Nair is an auto cancel, so I can follow up with another.

 

[Excellence]

Grabbed during the jump process.

 

[Onxy]

While behind you?

 

[Excellence]

I said I'd UTilt that, or try to move.

 

[Onxy]

I said that's why it auto cancels; so I can do it again, or just get out of there.

 

[Tien2500]

I stand corrected on the G&W matchup. My point still stands though. Anyways bair can't be shield grabbed. The vines extend past grab range. I would think that Ivy could actually hit Dedede with this if he predicts the ftilt because of his ftilts duration and even if he couldn't it seems like it would be safe.

The nair would land in back of you. You can Utilt but while Utilt is fast it isn't amazingly fast and I'm not sure Ivy would get hit by it.

Anyways I should have my internet set back up tonight so if you want to play me with Dedede (excellence) I'm up for it. Its probably better to play more than one person to get a grasp of the matchup.

 

[Onxy]

I was trying to grab in between Ftilts, but the button lag made me get fit in the face almost everytime.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

if ivysaur lands behind DDD during nair she can just bulletseed his *** (literally) before the utilt, and you cant "move away" , DDD is slow on that area, btw, chars dtilt cant be shieldgrabbed

 

[cutter]

Just to let you guys know, this is Brawl. Very low shieldstun, easy powershielding, and the ability to drop your shield very quickly means you will get grabbed by DDD often.

 

[Steeler]

nair isn't very safe unless d3 is in the air or doing some kind of action already.

fair is actually pretty nice, it has good range and ko potential. you can do it and di back so that d3 can't shieldgrab, and if he tries to dash grab ivy can just ftilt or dtilt to protect itself.

excellence i can play you, you seem to be the only dedede that wants to test this out lulz

 

[Retro Gaming]

Just to let you guys know, this is Brawl. Very low shieldstun, easy powershielding, and the ability to drop your shield very quickly means you will get grabbed by DDD often.

Assuming you're within Dedede's grab range, of course.

 

[cutter]

Assuming you're within Dedede's grab range, of course.

DDD's grab range is HUGE. Am I missing something?

 

[Onxy]

DDD's grab range is HUGE. Am I missing something?

Olimar board is that way -------->

Lol.

It's big, but not huge.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Nair'll put you in danger of geting grabbed, sure. Well spaced Ivysaur Bair, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc. will not.

I mean, most characters can't even roll behind Ivysaur if it uses SH Bair, hits with the tips, and DI's away.

 

[Hydde]

Definitely one of the best figths from ptagainst a top tier.

Bullet seed ****s updddpretty well...char has good moves aainst him and ft and rock smash are always good...and squirt is pretty fast toattack ddd...u just need take a close eye on what he is doing but once get past his range.. u can get pretty good % on him.

Th chainthrow is what bothers charizar and ivy ifnot the 3 of em.
Another thing that bothers a lot but i think no one has mentioned is the gordo. Usually my fights against a DDD players goe slike this
-Fight starts
-after a couple of waddles, DDD rushes to try to chaingrab and over power.
-He receives some bullet seed and Fthrowers for major damage.
-Camping begins....

and here is when they can get pretty lucky.
With ivysaur, u can counter this with ur razor leaves because they comeout decently fast and can hit him a lot... but charizard isthe one that will get trouble with this kind of game. Youcant just approach mindlessly against DDD because a grab is waiting for you, or a smash, but you cannot stay too far from him because that nasty gordo can show up any moment and kill you. I dont know why, but ifeel that Gordo´s % of appearing is much lower than peach´s stitch face....and gordos travel a lot and bounce. Charizard is a big target and if umessup one move, the gordo can catch u and being the difference in the match.

You must be aware of those gordos.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think I may have Infinited a Charazard before on the moving platform on Smashvile, but I think he just had bad DI, but if that was the case, well, don't pick Smashvile! (Thats one of DDDs best stages anyway.)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

but i love smashville, specially the go kk rider song ... ontopic, how does DDD gets afected by a shield canceled dash grab happy charizard?? i think a lot, but that may just be my opiion

 

[infernovia]

He just grabs right back?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

but chars grab range is slightly better, and ( i think) the shield cancelled grab is even more ranged

 

[Steeler]

yeah, ddd can infinite people on smashville's moving platform, or at least get a loooot of damage on ya in a short amount of time.

 

[Steeler]

ok, so i've decided that the ddd board doesn't give a ****. most of the top/upper tier boards don't care, which is why i kind of just wanted to go through the list of characters that have actually tried to look into this matchup...

so

let's just come to a conclusion already and get over it.

honestly, i played a decent ddd secondary here and squirtle was having a much easier time than either ivy or zard. it may just be that my squirtle is better than the other two pokes but...i'll say this. i feel it's at worst close to neutral. ddd is just so...fat. and you are so mobile. avoiding grabs isn't much of a problem. ddd has a big blindspot at approximately 30-45 degrees upward, and like metaknight, squirtle can take advantage. ddd cannot just stick ftilts out and expect to space squirtle out because he's so MOBILE. and the ftilt will leave him vulnerable to something from squirt, be it an aerial or shellshifted grab or something. and you can't be chaingrabbed as squirtle so keep that in mind. also always keep a water gun handy, because it really screws up ddd's recovery. here's why:

ddd gains like...no momentum from his jumps lol. at all. aim water gun at him and he'll lose some of that precious distance and be forced into an up b. at this point you can either charge water gun again and shoot if he's near the edge...or charge and time an up smash. either way squirtle has the advantage at this point. something to keep in mind.

ivysaur is okay. fsmash is key because vertical kos on ddd are tough. or just switch to charizard lulz. ivysaur's up smash has a nice hitbox to the sides as well as above. so whenever ddd is forced into an up b... bullet seed is a safer and still viable option.

razor leaf is your best friend. you want ddd to come to you, and razor leaf does that. cuts through waddle crap, stay outside of ftilt's range and full hop razor leaf above the hammer head and then leaf again as you land, because either ddd had to shield/sidestep the first leaf or get hit, and both will leave him more likely to get hit by the second leaf. if ddd is running at you, prepare for either a grab or dash attack, both of which are punished by a timed sidestep to bullet seed. at that point ddd will have to do stuff like bair as an approach, which you can vine whip/shieldgrab. and again, ddd's jumps give little momentum so it'll be obvious when he wants to bair. just beware that bair is out for a deceptively long time.

the biggest thing here is knowing how to effectively use your razor leaf, because ivysaur doesn't want to approach ddd, and ddd doesn't want to approach ivy. ivy's camping beats ddd's so bigger stages will help ivysaur out a lot more here, but also gives ddd more chaingrab damage, should you let yourself be grabbed.

charizard is interesting. unlike ivy, he lacks a projectile so he kind of has to approach ddd lest the waddle dee army call war on him. waddle dees are WAY TOO GOOD (i wonder if affinity is reading this). charizard can approach CAREFULLY. you have to be careful here. flamethrower, rock smash, bair. these are your most important moves. i'm fairly certain that a well spaced bair is not grabbable for ddd, particularly if bair's second hit is disjointed, like ftilt's. rock smash and flamethrower are problems for someone of ddd's size. each time you land a flamethrower you are almost guaranteed 15% minimum. rock smash is nice too...but unfortunately ddd can grab you out of it if he shields through all of the hits. mix it up. i really don't think ddd has an answer to a well spaced flamethrower. all ddd can do is try and outpredict it and roll behind you or something. if ddd likes to do that, punish with a rock smash or bair. or turn the flamethrower around on him. if bair really can't be grabbed, then approaching backwards will leave you open to cover both sides of your body, should he roll toward you.

should ddd approach, charizard can handle it. ground approaches are met with flamethrowers. aim it up as soon as you start up in case he jumps, you may still be able to hit him. zard easily shieldgrabs ddd's bair. rock smash can be used whenever you have an opening too.

off stage, bair and fair are both awesome because the sweetspotted knockback will force him to use his super jump. and sometimes it may not be enough if he's close to level with the stage. ddd can also edgeguard zard with a constant bair barrage. your glide will definitely come in handy here, especially in stages like battlefield and MAYBE smashville, where you can glide under the stage. i'm not completely sure on zard being able to glide under sv, i tried once and failed lol. fairly certain bf is possible since it's smaller. input here is appreciated.

the thing here with charizard is not getting grabbed. that's by far the most important thing. if you are good at spacing and not getting grabbed, zard does very well.

i'm hesitant to put actual numbers on it, but overall, pt is neutral at worst. slight advantage is possible.

 

[Retro Gaming]

IMO

Squirtle is between < and =.
Ivysaur is between = and >.
Charizard is between = and >.

 

[Onxy]

Steeler, your Squirtle is your best. Your Ivy IMO is your worst. I shouldn't judge because you might have been experiencing lag in our games also.

 

[Steeler]

i agree with you onxy.

i'm not very sure about this matchup. i agree with retro's general opinion, but we need to narrow it down for sure...

i doubt this analysis will hold once the ddd board puts in their input.

i'll say squirtle is neutral. a good, random squirtle will give ddd a lot of problems because he's very immobile...

i'll say ivysaur is neutral just because my ivy isn't that good so i don't really see it. but if any of you have a good ivysaur, please play a good ddd out there and come back with input.

charizard...i'll say neutral as well. i was having problems avoiding chaingrabs. again, this could just be my skill level showing up. zard just doesn't have that many options. :[

if any of you disagree, speak up and i'll probably take your word over mine.

 

[Onxy]

I have played DDD here and there (and only the good ones [as in they know what the heck to do]). Ivy gives DDD serious trouble because of her defense game. DDD can't really approach Ivy, and the Razor Leaf chops through Waddles. Ivy can destroy an approaching DDD, but DDD should try to force Ivy to approach. DDD suffers the same reason DK does (if you play this matchup.....it's pretty bad for DK, lol.)

 

[infernovia]

Quick question, can charizard beat DDD in the air, specifically his bair? IDK, my char is getting ***** pretty hard.

 

[Onxy]

Charizard ***** DDD with Bair. DDD ***** Charizard with Bair.

Bair vs Bair?......hmmmm.. I really don't want to test this, lol.

 

[Steeler]

i think zard's bair has more range, but i could be wrong.

both of them have similar aerial styles, and both can gimp the other well. i think it's neutral in the air.