GMD (Ganon's Moveset discussion)

Gleam · Sep 20, 2008

As a way of trying to add new/better material to my Ganon Techs, Skills and Matchups topic, I've thus created this thread for the soul puprose of discussion each individual move of Ganondorf.

Discuss how we can incorporate said moves with other attacks. Discuss how often said moves should be used. How good is said move's priority, how good is said moves reach? Does it have a sweetspot? What kind of attack momentum does it have. (Does it send opponents upwards, horizontally, etc.) How has the move been buffed/nerfed from the Melee, and if nerfed, what options are we allowed to use that make it somewhat better?
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So to begin...

GMD #1: The Sparta Kick (Ftilt)

Next to the Flame Choke, the Sparta Kick is perhaps Ganon's most popular move. Use the keypoints I've mentioned above plus more to discuss the usefulness and potential of the Sparta Kick. Whether it be well known information, or new information.

:034: · Sep 21, 2008

Ftilt... Armor Crusher, or Sparta Kick, if you will. It's a move that apparently needs saving. Spamming it will cause it's killing power to decline. If it's saved, it'll send your opponent right into a hard to recover corner, one that is really hard or impossible to recover from with some characters (Ike and Link come to mind). However, it's other options are limited and best left to other moves.

If you want an 'out of my face'-move, use Jab. If you want a poke, use dtilt. Ftilt is used for kills and/or heavy damage. Can be used out of FC for edgeguarding and/or kills. It has the least range of all the tilts, and the second highest-killing power besides utilt (for tilts anyway...).

Gleam · Sep 21, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
Ftilt... Armor Crusher, or Sparta Kick, if you will. It's a move that apparently needs saving. Spamming it will cause it's killing power to decline. If it's saved, it'll send your opponent right into a hard to recover corner, one that is really hard or impossible to recover from with some characters (Ike and Link come to mind). However, it's other options are limited and best left to other moves.

If you want an 'out of my face'-move, use Jab. If you want a poke, use dtilt. Ftilt is used for kills and/or heavy damage. Can be used out of FC for edgeguarding and/or kills. It has the least range of all the tilts, and the second highest-killing power besides utilt (for tilts anyway...).

Isn't that called move decay, when attack gets weaker the more times you use it consecutively.

:034: · Sep 21, 2008

Both names means mean the same thing, so...

Gleam · Sep 21, 2008

Ah, I see. I thank you for the info FD.
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Now for the second move.

GMD #2 The Jab (Neutral A.)

Some considered this move to be nerfed from Melee, in my oppinion, I think it was slightly buffed. If it wasn't, it still works well enough in the Brawl engine. What pointers can you give in which the Jab becomes a valuable asset to any Ganon mainer?

hyperstation · Sep 21, 2008

Jab is ganon's best option for side-step/shield battles. It comes out quick and stays out just long enough that if a fighter enters the jab out of it's side-step, there's a chance it will still connect. One of ganon's biggest assets for his spacing game. It helps get people out of your face with it's suitable knock back. It can be buffered or used as a buffer for another move. dair>jab, uair>jab, neutral air>jab, rising double jump fair>jab, jab>jab, dtilt>jab, ftilt>jab...all buffered. Jabbing is an essential part of any good ganon player's style. It's almost an instinctual "go-to" move to get aggressive approachers out of your space, and often one jab is all that's necessary to reverse the dominance of a match; it can provide the opening for ganon to go from defense to offense.

Super_Smasher6 · Sep 21, 2008

The Jab wasn't nerfed at all, it is much powerfull than it was in Melee!!! (tested!) It can be a kill move when you'r opponent is at 150% or above!

Shadow Nataku · Sep 21, 2008

I actually can see why some consider it nerfed from Melee and I agree actually. The main problem I find with the jab in Brawl is its VERY easy to grab Ganon out of.

Shield and grab after he hits, it almost always lands due to the minimal knockback. The original in Melee came out incredibly fast but it also finished fast giving you time to react, Brawl version comes out fast with abit more power but it stays out abit longer. Considering how easy it is to powershield in Brawl along with how it negates any type of knockback or lag almost using it excessively gives your opponent a free grab often.

On the other hand it is an important part of Ganny's spacing game and his fastest move I believe but really Ganny does actually have better spacing options available believe or not. The jab is worthless against short characters too which are the ones Ganny usually wants a breather against.

A decent move but to be used sparingly and on light short characters theres almost always a better option.

Gleam · Sep 21, 2008

Ok, sounds good. Going by quickly I know but on to the next move.

GMD #3 D-tilt

D-tilt is awesome no matter how you want to look at it. It's fast, I believe some IASA frames? It's got some great ange and decent KO power. So what can we add about Ganon's D-tilt?

A2ZOMG · Sep 22, 2008

D-tilt is one of Ganon's best attacks IMO.

Great range and comes out fast. The priority on this attack is ridiculous too and it will beat all sorts of disjointed hitboxes if you space it right. This attack is great from a Flame choke, either for dealing damage, or for killing people.

Shadow Nataku · Sep 22, 2008

DTilt is one of the most important moves in Ganny's repetoir, its one of his only means of hitting shorter characters. Its a fantastic launcher move, all of Ganny's strongest tilt attacks are his aerials so any move which can act as a launcher is important. On top of that it setsup opponents for a multitude of other moves like an immediate tilt afterwards. (I'm reluctant to say 'combo' since there are no true comboes in Brawl, especially with Ganny.)

Only disadvantage with DTilt is it doesn't work very well against sword users. Most sword users will be able to outprioritize or outspeed the DTilt. In some cases like Metaknight or Marth they'll simply hop over it and hit you in the face.

FTilt tends to work better on swordies, it may be smaller ranged but its hitbox covers directly in front of Ganny unlike the DTilt. With that said DTilt also actually lets Ganny duck under certain projectiles like Wolf's SH'd lasers.

DTilt is pretty much Ganny's main poking and launcher attack.

adumbrodeus · Sep 22, 2008

Gleam said:
Ok, sounds good. Going by quickly I know but on to the next move.

GMD #3 D-tilt

D-tilt is awesome no matter how you want to look at it. It's fast, I believe some IASA frames? It's got some great ange and decent KO power. So what can we add about Ganon's D-tilt?

Safe poking against some characters, Captain Falcon comes to mind.

:034: · Sep 22, 2008

Sweeping Snake in Melee, it's not much of a sweep now... Standing Snake would be better now.

Anyway, this move is fast, has IASA frames, buffers really well, has gigantic range and does pretty good damage. Dtilt isn't a kill move, but a setup and poking move. Leads to uairs or... Well, any aerial, really. It's range and disjointedness is amazing and works as an effective defensive maneuver: shield drop to dtilt. Opponent thinks he's safe? He can think again.

This is much like Snake's ftilt in that you should (ab)use it whenever you can. It can be used as a substitute for jab. As a poking move it's pretty great, the best Ganondorf has. It's perfect for staying out of an opponent's range and then hitting with it. And of course, you can use this as a FC follow-up, the most popular one, in fact. On heavy, fast falling characters you can chain several FC-Dtilt's, like Snake <:

I GIVE DTILT 5 GANONS OUT OF 5

Devil7 · Sep 22, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
I GIVE DTILT 5 GANONS OUT OF 5

Very Epic FD, that was awesome.

I use it all of the time to setup other moves. And the range on that move is awesome. At low percents dtilt is godly for setting up moves to rack up damage.

I think all moves should have a ranking like the one by FD, but instead use the avatar.

FTILT gets

Gleam · Sep 22, 2008

D-tilt is awesome like that. Now for the next move.

GMD #4 U-tilt

U-tilt has been vastly improved, even if it is our slowest attack.

Devil7 · Sep 22, 2008

Can anyone say "Edge ****". Thats basically what u-tilt is, aside for being a move to punish those who screw up a thunderstorm.

Shadow Nataku · Sep 22, 2008

UTilt is a waste of a moveslot thats all I have to say.

Anytime you consider using the move it should be for nothing other than showing off. Otherwise please slap yourself and consider the bazillion other better moves you could've used.

Gleam · Sep 22, 2008

I'm not pushing U-tllt aside or anything, so I'll still listen to discussion for it. Right now though I'm going to the next move.

GMD #5 Uair

I give Uair 5 Ganons...lol

hyperstation · Sep 22, 2008

uair gets a ganonplex of ganons.

Devil7 · Sep 22, 2008

hyperstation said:
uair gets a ganonplex of ganons.

I'm gonna sig that, its to awesome not to.

hyperstation · Sep 22, 2008

Devil7 said:
I'm gonna sig that, its to awesome not to.

I'm touched

A2ZOMG · Sep 22, 2008

I give U-tilt 2 Ganons out of 5.

U-tilt is not a good attack, but it's not completely useless. In Melee, it takes like 140 million years for the Volcano Kick to explode, but in Brawl, thankfully they shortened that to like 90 million years.

More accurately the U-tilt right now comes out in like 1 full second, maybe a little more. However there are times when you do have an entire second to spare, so keep an eye out for those.

Firstoff, the range on the attack is completely ridiculous. If someone is ledgestalling, you can stand a mile away from the edge and usually throw one out safely and if they try to get back up within that time, and they aren't a ridiculously huge character with an insane getup attack, they'll get smashed in the face. ^^

If someone recovers from the wrong trajectory, like for example if Wolf misses the ledge with his Side-B and heads towards the stage, if you timed this one right (you should, since Wolf's recovery is so one-tracked) well, he'll get smashed in the face. =P

If someone shields this attack, they'll take RIDICULOUS shield damage (try to set this up against badly spaced approaches). If you then D-air that someone, you'll probably break their shield and have an opportunity to smash someone in the face with a Murder Fist. =D

Oh yeah, and as for other gimmicky things the U-tilt can do. It can set off Snake's land mines (wind effect) and the wind effect can gimp Ike's Side-B.

Oh yeah and U-air gets 5 Ganons out of 5 for obvious reasons.

Gleam · Sep 22, 2008

Yes, Uair is is Ganonplex of awesomness.

So what kind of techs and skills does one use with the Uair?

hyperstation · Sep 22, 2008

Gleam said:
Yes, Uair is is Ganonplex of awesomness.

So what kind of techs and skills does one use with the Uair?

Well, I have a very advanced play style. I use tape to hold the control stick up and then I use tape to hold down the A button. then i hammer y or x to keep jumping. I've never lost.

:034: · Sep 23, 2008

LOLZ @ hyperstation

Utilt is more useful than the Warlock Punch as a 'big edgeguard hitter', since the lag is a lot less and the range is a lot more. I give Utilt 2 Ganons out of 5.

Uair needs no explanation. 6 Ganons out of 5.

Shadow Nataku · Sep 23, 2008

UAir is kinda like the Cream of Ganondorf soup, its a near faultless move. 5 Ganon's out of 5.

Ganon's best chasing move, incredible hitbox, spikes, lagless almost, KO's, outprioritizes, anti-air and it makes ICE CREAM. Well maybe not.

Either way UAir can be used in multiple ways, some of my favourite include using it as an approach. Reverse UAir's buffer straight into FTilt or DTilt with 0 lag, it can spike higher damage percentage enemies too. Its also a fantastic recovery and edgehog move.

Gleam · Sep 23, 2008

Sounds good. Next move.

GMD #6 Bair

I give Bair 4-5 Murders...>_>

Devil7 · Sep 23, 2008

I usually use the bair as a rar edgeguarding. It really throws people off who expect a smash or uair.

It is awesome but not quite as good as uair. Its fast as hell and very powerful but is doesn't have the range of the uair either.

I give it

A2ZOMG · Sep 23, 2008

I give the B-air 3 Ganons.

It's not a bad attack, but it's not a particularly good attack either. It's pretty easy to see coming, and you can almost never RAR this on the way up from a shorthop unless you're playing against a big character. The range is average, but it doesn't hit quite low enough to be reliable, and it just usually doesn't have enough kill power to easily kill from the middle of the stage. Also the duration is SUPER short, meaning that it's pretty easy to dodge.

It's fairly good offstage since you can spam this aerial real fast, and it's pretty good from a D-air followup if you're opponent is low enough. One way I use this aerial onstage is fullhopping a double B-air, and the second B-air is capable of hitting shorter characters. This disadvantage to that is of course landing lag.

Personally me, I'd use the F-air in almost any situation where I'd B-air. But I'll wait for the topic to update to that move before I explain why.

Gleam · Sep 23, 2008

You're in luck A2ZOMG

GMD #8 Fair

...We need a short hop lagless fair...

A2ZOMG · Sep 24, 2008

Okay, the thing about the F-air is that it has a LOT more range and a LOT more power than the B-air (but it's duration isn't significantly longer if at all). If you hit someone's shield with the tip of this attack, they're not going to punish the landing lag unless Metaknight wasn't knocked off the ledge by this. If you hit someone off stage with this attack they are almost certainly going to die. This attack is also really good for platform punishing.

All in all, the F-air is a little less spammable than the B-air, but it's an attack that's easier to land, and is much more rewarding when it does land.

3.5 Ganons out of 5 for the F-air IMO.

:034: · Sep 24, 2008

Fair is good, just not Melee good... Better than bair though.

It has more range and a lot more power (even with a weak hit) than bair. The landing lag is terrible, downright terrible. So the only way you can ever use this is a reliable finisher (and it's hard to kill with it on-stage) or an edgeguard, at which it is really effective. Fair is just not the really good attack from Melee anymore.

Bair isn't either due to the need to autocancel and less power, and the fact that people can recover easier in Brawl. Plus, you HAVE to sweet spot it if you want it to kill, which is sometimes kind of hard to do. It has a pretty weird hitbox, too, just not one that is usable when you're on the stage.

Fair gets 3.5 Ganons, bair gets 2 Ganons.

PS: For those not in the know: with the bair, the area around the fist is the sweetspot.

Shadow Nataku · Sep 24, 2008

Fair, don't have much to say about it other than its a great retreat move if SH'd out of a shield since it'll send them flying back even when shielded and has a strange curved hit angle since the hitbox is exclusively around the fist.

Devil7 · Sep 24, 2008

Edge canceled wizards foot to fair on a recovering enemy. Most don't ever see it coming. Thats basically all I use it for. I could use it for platform punishing but I prefer the uair to that so...

I give it

I would give it 3.5 like A2ZOMG but I can't make half a ganon head and it isn't worth a 4, so I give it a 3 instead.

Calixto · Sep 24, 2008

The F-Air is a good punisher every now and again for enemies that get trigger happy with their projectiles. D3 is a good example, his Waddle Dee toss has some nasty lag on it, and as Ganon you can sometimes get close enough to land a decent F-Air if they toss one Waddle Dee too many. After that first hit, you can just approach from their air if they spam, and pressure them to give up the spam.

Nifty for Ganon who has no projectiles of his own. 3.5 I would agree.

Gleam · Sep 24, 2008

Sounds good.

GMD #9 Dair

...Ganonplex?

Ray_Kalm · Sep 24, 2008

3.5 for the F-air.

It's not as much predictable as the back or down air, and could be used against edge guarders, and for spacing. The power is not as good as most heavyweights F-air should be, but the sweepspot hit can kill around lower % (40-50 to be exact).

Ray_Kalm · Sep 24, 2008

5/5 for D-air. We all know how good it is. Lag can be cancelled, it has incredible power, has a decent hitbox, it can Spike, and it could be used when tech chasing.

Devil7 · Sep 24, 2008

Yeah this is easy dair also gets a ganonplex of ganons. Any ganny player worth their salt at least knows the power of dair. If they don't they should main CF instead.

Hey Gleam why don't you update the first post with the current ganons for each move. Just thought it would be cool.

Ray_Kalm · Sep 24, 2008

Devil7 said:
Yeah this is easy dair also gets a ganonplex of ganons. Any ganny player worth their salt at least knows the power of dair. If they don't they should main CF instead.

Hey Gleam why don't you update the first post with the current ganons for each move. Just thought it would be cool.

Yeah, and you should also add basic information beside each move, it'll be easier to track.

GMD (Ganon's Moveset discussion)

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Cadet

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

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