GMD (Ganon's Moveset discussion)

[mariofanpm12]

I actually can see why some consider it nerfed from Melee and I agree actually. The main problem I find with the jab in Brawl is its VERY easy to grab Ganon out of.

Shield and grab after he hits, it almost always lands due to the minimal knockback. The original in Melee came out incredibly fast but it also finished fast giving you time to react, Brawl version comes out fast with abit more power but it stays out abit longer. Considering how easy it is to powershield in Brawl along with how it negates any type of knockback or lag almost using it excessively gives your opponent a free grab often.

On the other hand it is an important part of Ganny's spacing game and his fastest move I believe but really Ganny does actually have better spacing options available believe or not. The jab is worthless against short characters too which are the ones Ganny usually wants a breather against.

A decent move but to be used sparingly and on light short characters theres almost always a better option.

On anotehr plus, if you connect with teh tip of Ganon's hand on the jab, you'll give extra damage and send foes further.

 

[hyperstation]

from what I can tell, fromundaman isn't completely crazy...at least with nair. If you do a SH nair, you can't buffer into an fsmash, but if you do a SH nair and fast fall as soon as you're able (apex of your jump), you can buffer an fsmash pretty easily. There's still lag, but with the knockback of nair, you should be clear to land the fsmash before your opponent can get to you. I've done very little testing so far, but I'll keep you all posted on what else I figure out.

edit: more info- well, we really need a video to explain this well, but the way in which you know you're fast falling with the correct timing is as follows. As we know the nair has two kicks. We can use the sounds of the specific movements in the air to explain the correct timing.

The timing of a regular SHed nair is this: jump sound, kick 1 sound, kick two sound, landing sound. that's four sound effects total.

The timing of a "correctly" SHFFed nair is this: jump sound, kick one sound, then some hybrid sound of the second kick and the landing sound TOGETHER.

If you SHFF the nair correctly, you can buffer your next move almost immediately after you hit the ground. I've been experimenting with viable followups, and I really like a stutter stepped fsmash. If you connect with either kick of the nair at low to medium percentages (<50% or 60%?) the stutter step will put you within range of your knock back to perhaps land the fsmash.

Another way to tell you're doing this "correctly" is that you'll be able to buffer SHFFed nair into SHFFed nair over and over again. This may also be a viable approach against shorter characters, but it's hard to say.

It's up in the air for me if this has any real competitive usage in real time, but I'm exceedingly optimistic. As for the SHFFed fair, I'm significantly less optimistic. The lag on the SHFFed nair is minimal (relatively speaking) but the SHFFed fair, as far as I can tell, still yields pretty ugly lag. Not to mention, it'd be hard to follow up a fair with anything because if you connect with it, then dat mutha f**** be flyin'!

Side note. I'm also experimenting with SHFFed bair again, and I think I might be getting somewhere. For anyone else testing nair and fair, try bair also, and see what you can get.

More to come later. I'm glad to have something new to experiment with.

 

[Hayzeus]

Just remember, wait till Ganon yells before accelerating his fall, otherwise you'll wonder why the hell Ganon's fist/foot came crashing through his opponent's skull yet did no damage.

I fkin hate it when this **** happens.
especially when it's a live or die moment.

 

[Swoops]

If the n-air lag is minimal after fast falling then it might actually be...an approach! Holy sh*t, Ganon is looking better and better. Even if f-air is a little less lag it would be useful. It's not exactly for connecting into other hits, it's a decent move even with the lag.

EDIT: Someone please get a video up, I'm dying to see this.

 

[:034:]

I have tried SHFF nair in the past, but I only saw it's use against the more laggy side of the cast.

Prove me wrong, Hyper. :>

 

[Devil7]

Yeah FD is right. It's really only useful against laggy people. Its not bad as a mix up againts aerial opponents. The only thing I ever SHFF is the uair and bair.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I've pulled off SHFF in some form or another by accident before but I never saw much use for it since the characters I'd love to use it on are usually too short.

For that reason I just prefer full hopped NAir into a auto canceled DAir/UAir, it at least usually lets me cover some ground and neutralize more aerial characters like Metaknight. Though I prefer smacking that guy with a full face of UAir/Tipman unjustice. It works decently enough as an approach anyway and its my favourite way for dealing with that little ******* of a Metaknight.

If you connect with the DAir it comboes straight into a USmash too since theres only one timing for the jump and it'll always auto cancel if you even pulled it off. Or a 2nd DAir if you like to try your luck, I just prefer USmash for the aforementioned UAir unjustice.

 

[hyperstation]

Let's not eat our panties here, boys. I said I'm "exceedingly optimistic," nothing more. I sure as s*** wouldn't call it an approach yet, and it's anything but spammably good, but each time I have sat down with it since fromundaman mentioned it, I've found more potential uses. So far I'd say it's less viable as a future approach technique and much, much, much more viable as a heady spacing technique. One thing's for sure...this technique WILL be used. For me, it's only a matter of how much it will be used and how good/versatile it is. In other words, a useless demonic step this is not. It's something better, but we need to unpack it.

Let me be clear: there IS lag, though it's less than one would normally experience on a nair, and it also has the ability to be buffered. Furthermore, with nair knockback, it's possible that the lag would be of little importance due to hit stun and the ability to buffer into something quick like a jab.

I'm going to spend a lot more time on this in the coming days, and I do want to put a video together. Perhaps I can put both the wiz kick cancelling techs and the SHFFed nair fair etc into the same video and A2ZOMG (or anyone else with the capability) could convert it for me.

 

[Gleam]

Ganondorf just gets better and better. So what kind of spiffy name are we going to give this could-be approach tech?

 

[Shadow Nataku]

SHFF Kick would suffice me thinks...

But hyperstation is right that it'd make a handy retreat or spacing move since as it stands Dorf does have only two really decent retreat moves. NAir and SH'd FAir out of shield so obviously a SHFF'd NAir might work as more of a defensive technique than an approach. The question is more what can be buffered out of a SHFF Kick as this is what I consider the really important part.

 

[fromundaman]

Well, as the video I can't seem to upload for some strange video shows, at low percentages, a down tilt is a good follow up, since it has a longer range and thus will hit even if you hit with the sweet spot of the Nair, and, again at low percentages, a stutter stepped F-smash can be used to hit them after that, (though odds are they'll dodge it, so you could use a jab instead, though they can DI out of its range). That or you could go straight to a stutter step Fsmash.

If you're really close (as in you hit with Ganon's thighs, as scary as the thought is), you can follow up with an Usmash. However, if you're that close, odds are you're going to be shield grabbed.

the SHFFed fair, as far as I can tell, still yields pretty ugly lag. Not to mention, it'd be hard to follow up a fair with anything because if you connect with it, then dat mutha f**** be flyin'!

True, but the landing lag becomes part of the move, so while it's still there, if someone tries to hit you (unless they outrange/outprioritize you, they will take damage... at least I think. I'm testing this alone against computers, so it's kind of hard to tell, since they tend to suck.). Also, yeah, you won't really be following it up with anything. However, I like using it around 60+ percent (never before so they *hopefully* don't see it coming) in hopes of getting a kill.



Well, if my friend gets back with his laptop and camera tonight and they don't both conspire with youtube against me, then I'll have the video up tonight (It's not amazing, but it shows what it needs to.).

 

[hyperstation]

if what you say about the landing lag being part of the move is true, you just made my night.

 

[fromundaman]

if what you say about the landing lag being part of the move is true, you just made my night.

Please check if you have a second player. The only people I don't know enough about the game to actually help with this (I've tried... I know, it sounds simple "Just walk into the fist when I hit the ground", but apparently it must be harder than it sounds, because they can't do it right...), so again, I could be completely wrong about that, but it's what it seems like from matches with computers.

In any case, you don't get ANOTHER animation when you hit the ground, as the animations, I DO know, blend together.

 

[Gleam]

It almost seem like you do the Fair or Nair while fast falling, so that while you still have the same lag as usual (As it seems to me) Because you've done the move so close to the ground, there's less chance of being countered attack then say if you were to try a normal SH Fair or Nair. Since you basically attack while landing.

 

[fromundaman]

All right, took a while, but here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcPfWWNm8SE&feature=email

Also, I made the day after I found this, so it's definitely not the best, but seeing how long it took me just to obtain a camera and upload this, I'm probably not making another one. Hope this illustrates what I was trying to say.

 

[Gleam]

Awesome, glad you finally got the video up fromundaman. I'll put it in the Compact List.

 

[Jekyll]

...I'm not seeing any lag being reduced. I understand what you're trying to say about how it seems that way, but that's not actually what's happening. The amount of lag that the aerial has once Ganon lands is still the same, but he's in the air less so the cumulative time that you spend "in the attack" is minimal. Unfortunately, that still doesn't change the fact that it's a slow attack.

I wouldn't try that nair->dtilt->fsmash combo on human's either. Sure, anything's possible and you may catch them with their pants down and both hands busy, but that doesn't make it a good option...unless your opponent is Helen Keller.

Using the nair right before landing is actually useful in some situations, though.

 

[fromundaman]

I wouldn't try that nair->dtilt->fsmash combo on human's either. Sure, anything's possible and you may catch them with their pants down and both hands busy, but that doesn't make it a good option...unless your opponent is Helen Keller.

Yeah... I recently noticed that too. Might be able to follow with a Stutter step Fsmash, but even that doesn't seem to work as well as I'd hoped it would (not to mention I'm not too great at Ganon, as fun as he is, so I'm not good at following up his moves anyway.). Hyper was right about this. It's actually better as an "Oh **** get out of my face" move.

The thing with SHFF Punch though is that, yeah, you're right, seems like the same lag more or less, but it seems to me that when you do the Fair off the ground, you still get an additional landing lag where Ganon puts his fist into the ground, whereas it seems to merge with the move's normal animation if you land as you do the move (I'm rereading this and it seems confusing, but hope you understand what I mean.(Edit: Just look at Gleam's post. He explains it much better than I.))

 

[Gleam]

The thing I like about the SHFF Punch *as we named it* is the fact that since Fair already has lag no matter what you do, unless your godly at hitting opponents with a full double jump fair or someting, is it basically allows you to attack while landing, instead of attack then landing.

While both forms are capable of being punished, I'd rather pick the one where I get less punished if I ever feel like pulling out a Fair.

 

[fromundaman]

Also, did this on accident yesterday, so thought I'd share:

When you do a D-throw at low %s, you can follow up with a Uair. We all knew this of course, but I found if it misses for whatever reason or they airdodge it, you and your opponent usually land not far from each other, and Ganon's Uair ends before he hits the ground, a perfect time to pull out that short Nair, especially if they air-dodged, as they come out of it right about when you'd use it. I managed to follow that up with a DA and another Uair yesterday, but then, I was playing a comp. This is by no means guaranteed, but eh, it might be situationally useful if they don't see it coming, so I thought I might as well mention it.

 

[Blad01]

Are you doing to sum up the entire thread, gleam ?

 

[Gleam]

Are you doing to sum up the entire thread, gleam ?

No, mainly because I put all the data in the Compact List. This is basically a topic where I can collect data and information, otherwise I would.