Weekly match-up: King DDD

A basic overview of the advantages:
DDD:

Projectiles
Chain-grabbing (not infinte thank God)
Bair
Can actually hit harder then ganondorf if given the opportunity
Disjointed hitboxes
Good Range


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos
Predictable recovery



A few questions that should be explored in this match-up (others may be added in the course of the discussion):



General format of questions that help you understand how a high level game develops:(basically, ask these questions, most in order, it's very helpful)

1. Who has to approach?
V
2a. If ganondorf, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2b. If the opponent, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2c. If neither, do either of them have safe approaches in this match-up?
V
3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

4. Who has a better follow-up game?

5. Who has aerial superiority?

6. Who has a better gimp game?

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

9. Can the character that doesn't have to approach safely approach?



I might have forgot something here, but the opening questions tend to be incredibly important in deciding the match-up, not on their own, but as a chain.

This is still probably a D3 advantage, but I confident that if the chaingrab wasn't used, this match would be much easier for Ganondorf. However, obviously Dedede will try to chaingrab Ganondorf. For this, my best situation would be the level your own.

Walk off, or plain out flat levels like Smashville, FD and Battlefield equas NO. Any level that helps affectively stop or limit Dedede's Chaingrab with limited platform movement like the platforms on Brinstar or Norfair more than likely yes.

For the mere fact that Dedede has a projectile, limits the form of Ganondorf having to approch. I don't think waddledees are very good (Unless you get smacked by a gordo) but I don't think it's very bad either. It's a projectle though.

D3 is a large character, thus he's rather easy to hit and of course he's got one of those Up B recoveries that's rather easy gimp. Dedede defintely has better range and thus can space better tha Ganondorf. Not sure how well, but I think we can D-throw Dedede Twice into a Stutter Step Fsmash. (Don't take my word too seriously on this though)

One very good thing is we all the follow up on King D3, Jab, Ftilt and Dtilt. Also due to D3 size, he one of the easier characters for Ganondorf to use his short, strong combos on.

Ganondorf has no realistic chances to win this battle. He has to approach, which he isn't good at especially vs Dedede, who can ftilt all day long. Once Ganon is close enough he's grab fodder. Once he's of the stage he's dead. Dedede lives forever...nargh

I could give you a number but I don't think you need it. Ganon cannot win this one realistically

A strategy I thought about, that might not be the safest, but it might work better with the chaingrabbing Dedede.

If you happen to get those levels like FD, I think it's best to stay near the edge, facing the center, and making sure Dedede is not behind you. This way when he does grab, he can only chain grab you like twice, until your thrown off the ledge. Istead of getting chaingrabbed 8 times from one edge of the stage to the other.

but eh...

Dededes grab game is h4x, even without the CG. People should stop thinking that the CG is all Dedede has

Wow, DDD is one hell of an annoying matchup.

His Waddle Dee spam is so gay since Ganon has a really hard time avoiding it. Ganon is huge and slow moving. Fortunately, they're not hard to powershield, but still, it's hard to punish DDD for using Waddle Dees.

His F-tilt has almost the same range as your Flame Choke or something, which is also amazingly annoying. And he has like 5 times as much standing grab range as you do so it's not hard for him to simply grab Ganon's foot as he attacks.

His chaingrab and other high damaging throws can take you from 0-60 in a matter of seconds.

I really don't know what else to say since on paper this matchup just looks very depressing.

Dorf can effectively juggle DeDeDe with well-timed u-airs and use SideB->Dtilt or Ftilt on an airdodge to keep it going until DeDeDe DI's off the stage, which is also good. Your low% reverse U-air setups can also help to get around the f-tilt. The matchup isn't un-winnable by any stretch, however, DeDeDe's chaingrab and edgeguarding keep it from being better than 7-3 in competitive play.

Ganon mains should be used to risk/reward setups, however, and you've got to make the maximum for your money here. You can still kill DeDeDe in five hits like everyone else if you get nice with a f-smash, and you can >B chaingrab him to ****, just don't mess up and don't try to win some kind of camping game. Also arguably you have the best ways to punish his up-B (>B, stomps, upsmashes, vB)

King Dedede is the hardest top/high tier match-up along with Meta Knight. I would put D3 up higher, actually.

Ganondorf has virtually nothing against D3. He forces you to approach, so he can camp all day long with Waddle Dee's and if you do come close, ftilt or grab ****. All your usual approaches are virtually useless. And once you get grabbed, you're pretty much done for.

And even without the CG, D3's bull**** grab range makes you get grabbed out of virtually everything.

Only thing you can do at first against the chaingrab is spam up B while being chaingrabbed. Once you're off the stage, you should latch on to him rather than getting a fair and dying. D3's offstage game is just too good for our lame recovery to handle.

What else can you do? Not a whole lot... You can try to pick a stage that counters him, but virtually every stage works in his favor. The only one I can think of that might remotely help is Norfair, but his off-stage game can still gimp the **** out of you. Otherwise, he's a big and heavy target, so juggling is a bit easier.... If Brawl didn't have this insanely lame airdodge. >_>

Personally, I think King Dedede is one of the top/high tier match-ups that you just have to switch for if you want to win.

90:10 in favor of Dedede.

From my experience....if you playing a GOOD DDD, then this fight is heavily in DDD's favor. He has just about every advantage over Ganon in this match. A projectile, can chaingrab the hell out of Ganon, hella long reach, disjointed hitboxes on top of that hella long range....he just pretty much has everything he needs to keep Ganon from hitting him like a bus full of fat people.

Best thing is to have a secondary who can deal with this big boy, because he easily owns Ganon.

LOL, DDD is probably one reason why I main G&W.

Can't say I have any experience on fighting a Dedede, only sorta experience I have is that I do like to play Dedede and I do think I play him pretty decently.

Only things I know about Dedede vs Dorf is that triple DAir is an instant 60% damage combo on DDD even with DI involved or you can DAir twice into a grab or DAir twice into a USmash. Flame Choke usually beats out DDD's grab and Waddle Dee toss can actually be negated with a simple jab, Ganny's Jab actually has higher priority. Its usually a better option than shielding since only a perfect shield is safe, normal shield will be grabbed.

Only other tactics I know off that can ward off a DDD approach is FJ NAir which will usually combo on DDD, slightly outrange his grab and can deal with a Waddledee toss. The main advantage here though is DDD is a very heavy fastfaller and once you do get in a hit Ganon can actually kick the hell out of DDD with juggles or comboes before he can react.

However I do know the normally comboable Tipman -> FTilt/DTilt is completely unsafe in this matchup, DDD will be able to move before the FTilt/DTilt comes out. I also do know Dedede is someone I never want to be caught off the stage against, Metaknight? Pfft I'll Uair or BAir the ******* he's still small and light. Dedede? ****ing BAir's,Dtilt, DAir, WaddleDee Toss, FAir, chase ability and too much weight to knock away with any old defensive hit.

This match-up is between 35-75 and 20-80 for me. The only advantage being that DDD is a big target that you can combo easily...

But apaprt from that, you get destroyed at approach, defensive, grabs, edgeguard, every zone, you can't gimp him.... Definitly one of the worst match-ups :s

Shadow Nataku said:

Can't say I have any experience on fighting a Dedede, only sorta experience I have is that I do like to play Dedede and I do think I play him pretty decently.

Only things I know about Dedede vs Dorf is that triple DAir is an instant 60% damage combo on DDD even with DI involved or you can DAir twice into a grab or DAir twice into a USmash. Flame Choke usually beats out DDD's grab and Waddle Dee toss can actually be negated with a simple jab, Ganny's Jab actually has higher priority. Its usually a better option than shielding since only a perfect shield is safe, normal shield will be grabbed.

Only other tactics I know off that can ward off a DDD approach is FJ NAir which will usually combo on DDD, slightly outrange his grab and can deal with a Waddledee toss. The main advantage here though is DDD is a very heavy fastfaller and once you do get in a hit Ganon can actually kick the hell out of DDD with juggles or comboes before he can react.

However I do know the normally comboable Tipman -> FTilt/DTilt is completely unsafe in this matchup, DDD will be able to move before the FTilt/DTilt comes out. I also do know Dedede is someone I never want to be caught off the stage against, Metaknight? Pfft I'll Uair or BAir the ******* he's still small and light. Dedede? ****ing BAir's,Dtilt, DAir, WaddleDee Toss, FAir, chase ability and too much weight to knock away with any old defensive hit.

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Except n-air kinda screws Ganon out of stomp combos

1. Who has to approach?

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Ganondorf. Dedede has projectiles. You don't. Next question.

2a. If ganondorf, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?

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Maybe. I don't have much experience with this matchup but if I were a Ganondorf I'd try spacing a grounded wizard foot through the Waddle Dees to just outside of Dedede's grab range and then try some short hopped aerials.

3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

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I don't know exactly what you're asking by this but Dedede will shieldgrab any approach you try if he can.

4. Who has a better follow-up game?

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Aside from the chaingrab it's about the same I suppose. Their speed and ability to combo is about the same.

5. Who has aerial superiority?

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Dedede. Hands down.

6. Who has a better gimp game?

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Dedede. A spike will kill us, sure, but all we have to do is bthrow -> bair.

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

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Dedede, though it's close. If it weren't for the chaingrab they'd be about the same, in fact Ganondorf may be a little better.

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

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Dedede's ftilt is the best spacing tool in the game. Period.

9. Can the character that doesn't have to approach safely approach?

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I guess Dedede could approach with Waddle Dees and RAR bairs if he wanted to, but that's likely not going to happen.

To be honest, I have counterpicked Ganondorf against DeDeDes in tournaments (I usually main R.O.B.) and have done so successfully.

Ganondorf rocks my socks.

D3 definitely has more advantges on both the general outlook and in more detail.
Ganon has to approach, which is quite difficult for him already, and is only made tougher due to Waddle Dee spam. Once he gets close, he's just CG/Grab bait, and when Ganon is offstage he's basically done for, though D3's edgegaurding isn't as bad as somecharacters, it's still great.

However, Ganon can attack D3 easier due to him being a large foe, and he even has a few semi-combos.

At best, I'd say 45:55 King Dedede
At worst, maybe 30:70 King Dedede

I'm just going to point out that DDD also has combos on Ganondorf.

After he CGs you, watch out when you're off stage. He can B-air WOP you all the way to the blastzone and then KO you with a F-air.

Yeah, I saw that happen in a combo vid. It was ugly.

its not that that easy for ddd. But most ganons just fail.

Ganons up air can mess with ddd while hes in the air a bit, side+b shenanigans and free dtilt or w/e he gets out of it for like 20 or so percent, 2 of those = a full length cg plus ganon can kill d3 at some surprisingly low percents.

But obv ddd still pwns wiht the chaingrab, bair owns, ganon is forced to approach and gimps.

Id say 70:30.

I come with valuable matchup experience vs teh kockinator

It's certainly not an impossible matchup in my opinion. But it can certainly be difficult against a chaingrabbing DDD.

Look, all I've ever done against DDD players is Flame Choke to standard A, and Wizard's Foot whenever they role. It should also be fairly easy to dair them when they're off the ledge. Just remember that, like Ganondorf, DDD has slow moves as well. And of course, he is much bigger than Ganondorf, making it fairly easy to hit him.

Don't gamble air attacks though. You are not very likely to hit Dedede.

adumbrodeus said:

1. Who has to approach?
V
2a. If ganondorf, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2b. If the opponent, does he have safe approaches in this match-up?
OR
2c. If neither, do either of them have safe approaches in this match-up?
V
3. Does the approaching character(s) have approaches that are safe on prediction and/or multiple safe on block approaches that require a DIFFERENT reaction on prediction? Are any of these approaches kill moves?

4. Who has a better follow-up game?

5. Who has aerial superiority?

6. Who has a better gimp game?

7. Who gets the opponent to percents that they can reliably kill quicker overall?

8. Who has better spacing and zoning tools?

9. Can the character that doesn't have to approach safely approach?

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1) Nobody really has to approach. Dedede will spam Waddle-Tossing, and Ganondorf will jab jabs and tilts and ruin every one of them. But since Dedede has an easier time racking up damage than G-dorf, Ganon will have to be the one that approaches for this sake.

2) Nobody really has a safe approach, but then again, Dedede doesn't have to approach anything. Ganondorf has to worry about every one of his attacks getting shield-grabbed.

3) I think Ganon can try shorthopped uairs without getting shieldgrabbed. If that's true, then he can combine that with Flame Chokes to make sure Dedede has to think instead of just holding the shield button. I really wouldn't say anything is safe though.

4) If you discount chaingrabbing as a "follow-up," Ganondorf easily follows-up better than Dedede.

5) I don't know how Ganon's up-air matches with Dedede's back-air. If both of them are facing each other, Ganondorf's up-air is faster than Dedede's foward-air, giving him the advantage there. I'd say Dedede being below Ganon is even because if Ganon ever gets his foot in there, it's all she wrote for Dedede. Dedede has the advantage above Ganon and at his (D3's) backside).

6) Take a good look at Dedede. Go ahead, stare at him. Now see him in the air. Look at how his jumps have almost no horizontal/vertical movement. Do you get what I'm saying? A King Dedede off the stage is a Ganondof spike artist's sex fantasy. He's such a huge target, and it's so funny watching a big guy like Dedede get blown off the face of the planet by Ganondorf's thunderstomp.

Unfortunately, Ganondorf can get back-air'd into nothingness almost as easily by Dedede, but it's not nearly as manly. This is even.

7 and 8) King Dedede

9) Irrelevant, as King Dedede does not approach. With a grab game like that, he doesn't need to.

Overall- With King Dedede's ground game centered on that chain grab and quick and effective aerials, this is a rough matchup for Ganon. However, being a giant round penguin just asking to be roasted by thunder, he can't have the priviledge of being a counter.

Matchup: 65-35 in favor of Dedede.