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Aggressive vs Defensive

Steel

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Most Marth's on this concept = :confused:


I'm here to clear it up.


Each Marth is different. He's such a versatile character and thus can be played in many different ways. But the most common thing you notice almost straight away when watching a Marth is this : Is the Marth aggressive or defensive?

"Hmm, looks like he is <insert playstyle>, is that right? Shouldn't he be doing it the other way.. isn't it more effective?"

Marth is about putting your opponent into traps with your sword while you stay at low risk. If you are a defensive Marth then you can do this.. in fact it's incredibly easy if you are defensive. If you are defensive you are using brick walls (SHDF, nairs, dtilts, etc) to keep your opponent out while you stay safe and punish his mistakes.

It sounds easy and it sounds very effective. It is. But like everything (besides metaghey), it has its weaknesses. For one, your opponent can control the pace of the match. Since you aren't really approaching, your opponent can decide when to strike. Let's take Sheik for example. You are SH retreating fairs to try and camp her, but it won't really do anything until she decides to approach you. She has so many options at this point, she can dash to shield, she can use her dart-like dash attack and punish the 5 or so frames of landing lag (i'm really unsure on the number) you have, she could roll behind you as you fair and grab you as you come down, or she could just throw needles at you. Different characters have different options, and as long as you are defensive those options expand and they will eventually find a way in.


This is where the aggressive Marth succeeds. His sword is always in the opponent's face and yet Marth is still in a safe position behind it. If you approach then you have effectively limited a LOT of your opponent's options compared to how many he had if the Marth was patient and defensive. Now YOU are controlling your opponent. You are putting him into auto-traps that are harder to get out of. It's pure sex.

But of course, with this many pros there must be many cons:

You have to be pinpoint in your approach. If you make one spacing mistake then your opponent will surely punish you for it. You must still focus on hitting with the tip to keep yourself safe.

You are constantly attacking. This means that you are basically committed to an action and once you do it you can't take it back. If your opponent uses a certain move that has priority or counters something that you will be unable to respond to it.

Perhaps you will just overexert yourself and put yourself in a bad position where you are left open.

Basically, all this means is that aggressive Marth is HIGH risk HIGH reward. It's much harder to execute compared with defensive Marth. If you choose the aggro route, know that you are taking the high road and it will require a lot more time and practice to make it work. Make a mistake and you will be left open and hit.


But do know that while these styles are very different, they still share some of the same qualities. Whether you are defensive or aggressive, you are still relying on zoning and pokes to rack up damage and keep yourself safe with your sword.

They are both very effective, in the end it really just depends on the player. There is no for sure better style, though if I had to choose then aggressive would probably come out on top.


tl;dr version:
Defensive Marth: Effective, Easy to do
Aggressive Marth: More effective and rewarding than defensive, Very hard to do


NOTEEEE: even though aggression is usually the way to go, sometimes you may have to turtle vs characters such as MK or various heavies
 

VietGeek

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Steel, you might want to fix the part where you said daksjflkasjdflkjaslk

It's rather vague and would probably confuse most readers.
 

∫unk

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tl;dr the tl;dr section

if you're doing one or the other exclusively you're stupid.

in addition, there's the defensive hybrid (both but more emphasis on defensive, most if not all the good marths do this) and aggressive hybrid (probably what steel is describing as aggressive but really you can't play safe aggro without staying moderately defensive).

in general from a neutral position, you'll see a good marth (that knows how to space) gain, lose, or stay even in stage control which speaks volumes on how aggressive they are.
 

Remzi

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Lol steel's topic got owned by hijackers. Good read though, I myself prefer a mostly defensive scheme but I do go on the offensive when necessary. I suppose you could call it a "hybrid" as the others have.
 

ZHMT

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Lol steel's topic got owned by hijackers. Good read though, I myself prefer a mostly defensive scheme but I do go on the offensive when necessary. I suppose you could call it a "hybrid" as the others have.
Hybrid is the way to go imo. Hybrid is like saying...when its time to defend ill defend. When its time to attack, I will attack. Staying at one particular style isn't bad. However, I see one problem with it. If you are constantly playing a defensive game, eventually you are going to become predictable, its inevitable. Against some characters it doesn't matter, like Kirby. However against Falco and such, you need to stay unpredictable. You can only do so much with defense and it gets to a point where they can run in as they predict your walling option and then you are going to take some damage before you can respace. Offensive is the same way, eventually you are going to run out of options and become predictable OR you may be in a matchup where you almost need to camp, like Metaknight for example and probably get *****.

Doing both styles mixed together creates a type of gameplay unique to the user. Of course learning both styles is possibly the most difficult thing you can do with Marth, but I see it like this...Well...Im facing a Pit that loves his her arrows. If you wall and zone with tilts and fairs etc...your not going to have a fun time. Even if you perfect shield, that is time your on the ground where they can rush in and grab...etc. A good Pit will look for that.

Being able to switch styles depending on the Matchup is golden. I dont mean a different defensive style. I mean flowing from offense to defense and vice-versa. Marth dittos, Metaknight, ROB, I usually play more defensive. Against Falco or Wario, I can create a ton of pressure on the opponent. Shield Breaker ***** so hard as an offensive Marth. Advanced move for an advanced style. Everyone begins to overuse their shield, its hilarious.

Use what works for you, dont attempt to go offensive if it is over your head. Like Steel said offensive is HARD to do effectively, and take a ton more practice then defensive.

Defensive: Staying a bit outside of tipper range be spacing with F-airs, dtilts, Nairs, very occasional shield breakers to keep them at bay and dancing blade to punish mistakes. Mainly keeping yourself safe with your range and spacing. Yeah there is more to this, however Im just skimming though.

Offensive: Constant pressure with dancing blade, being able to read the opponents shielding habits perfectly, shield breaker uses to actually break shields, dtilts, grabs, nairs. You are almost always attacking or staying at tipper range, one missed attack gets you punished. You are nowhere near as safe and are relying on Marths priority and mixups. Upsmashes are uses to punish anyone above you and spot dodge to dsmash is too good. Yet again there is more to it, but Im skimming.

I dont believe in playstyles with Marth 'that much'. Everyone needs to put an offense and a defense, its your choice what to stick with. If you wanna go offensive against Metaknight...go ahead, I wouldn't. If you wanna camp with SH fairs and tilts against Falco...I wouldnt do that much either. (Unless your at tip range of course.)
 

grandmaster192

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Aggressive Marth is the way to go IMO.

Personally, I think defensive Marth only works well consistently with low level play. There's only so much he can do defensively when he's playing constantly against characters like Falco, Snake, DDD, Rob, ect. He also allows the opposition too many option and too much freedom when he's played like that. It's not like he has a projectile he can use to distrupt or set ups traps.

Marth can control and dictate so much when he's attacking. NEO is obviously the best example. Just watch how he plays... By playing aggressively, he constantly has the other player in a bad situation and completely shuts them down. This is when Marth is at his best -- limiting a players options and keeping them in bad positions.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Grandmaster, Aggro Marth can work in some situations, but as ZMT said, you can't use it against MK or you'll get destroyed, that is why hybrid works best.


And NEO has perfected that playstyle for himself, but I don't see many others mastering it as he has.
 

illinialex24

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Grandmaster, Aggro Marth can work in some situations, but as ZMT said, you can't use it against MK or you'll get destroyed, that is why hybrid works best.


And NEO has perfected that playstyle for himself, but I don't see many others mastering it as he has.
I like hybrid Marth, cause dancing blade is so effective defensive but if used with D-tilt trap and fair attacks, it really works wonders.
 

Steel

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Grandmaster please don't just come in here and say "defensive doesn't work," it does. Why?

BECAUSE I SAID SO.

But seriously, don't just copy NEO and other marths, make your own style.
 

Steel

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Also don't get the idea that aggressive Marth is constantly in the air throwing out aerials, dtilts and all the other pokes still apply.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Grandmaster please don't just come in here and say "defensive doesn't work," it does. Why?

BECAUSE I SAID SO.

But seriously, don't just copy NEO and other Marths, make your own style.
QFT, copying people doesn't work well, unless you are picking up a character and are just using the basic principles of said character.
 

grandmaster192

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@Solid

Defensive Marth has a 65:35 disadvantage against MK, so that gets destroyed too. Any Marth style gets beasted by Meta Knight.

ChaosKnight is really good, too, and he's an aggressive Marth. He's probably the best Marth player behind NEO and Royr.
 

illinialex24

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Also don't get the idea that aggressive Marth is constantly in the air throwing out aerials, dtilts and all the other pokes still apply.
I know, but its still riskier than defensive but with higher reward. I like being more aggressive on Falco's but on a Jigglypuff or Metaknight, or someone without projectiles, I prefer defensive.
 

grandmaster192

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@Solid

Defensive Marth has a 65:35 disadvantage against MK, so that gets destroyed too. Any Marth style gets beasted by Meta Knight.

ChaosKnight is really good, too, and he's an aggressive Marth. He's probably the best Marth player behind NEO and Royr.
 

illinialex24

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@Solid

Defensive Marth has a 65:35 disadvantage against MK, so that gets destroyed too. Any Marth style gets beasted by Meta Knight.

ChaosKnight is really good, too, and he's an aggressive Marth. He's probably the best Marth player behind NEO and Royr.
Lol don't post the same thing twice and defensive Marth is not a 35-65 disadvantage.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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@Solid

Defensive Marth has a 65:35 disadvantage against MK, so that gets destroyed too. Any Marth style gets beasted by Meta Knight.

ChaosKnight is really good, too, and he's an aggressive Marth. He's probably the best Marth player behind NEO and Royr.
CK? Really? Wow... I highly doubt that. I've seen his Marth, and he is good, but I don't think he could beat Dr. PP or some others like HRNut and others. He is overrated IMO (not that anyone cares about my opinion) and there a better Marths. He is not the 3rd best Marth in the world.


And Hybrid Marth works better against MK than Aggro or defensive. I know that MK beats Marth on the highest level of play. I'm not stupid.
 

grandmaster192

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Hey Steel, post some vids of your current Marth. Last one I seen was you vs that green Marth who spammed counter, LMAO. But yeah, I saw you got 9th and I wanna see you play more.

against MK it just depends on the player, Solid. and I never said you where stupid.

EDIT: No way those guys are better than ChaosKnight. They're great players, but I don't they're THAT good to where they're better than CK.
 

Steel

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I don't have any recent vids of me and the only vids I EVER got uploaded was on wifi, though since I may be joining a crew I might be able to get some in the near future.
 

feardragon64

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There's a time and place for everything.
When there's a time and place for both, be unpredictable. Hybrid is alternating between the two constantly.
That's it.

Good read.

P.S. Junk you finished the post count MM with only about a 500 post count loss.
 

bludhoundz

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I think knowing how to play both offensively and defensively, and when to use either style is important.

When playing an opponent, the last thing you want to do is become predictable. Now I'm not saying if you're being only aggressive or only defensive you're getting predictable, but I think it's harder to be read when you're constantly switching, according to the situation.
 

Pr0phetic

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Nice assessment and post all together, I say you must combine Defense and Aggro to play most efficient. Its hard, I would know, its developing.
 

ChaosKnight

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CK? Really? Wow... I highly doubt that. I've seen his Marth, and he is good, but I don't think he could beat Dr. PP or some others like HRNut and others. He is overrated IMO (not that anyone cares about my opinion) and there a better Marths. He is not the 3rd best Marth in the world.


And Hybrid Marth works better against MK than Aggro or defensive. I know that MK beats Marth on the highest level of play. I'm not stupid.

i dont think hrnut or dr pp would do so well in this area even they themselves are great marths it really depends on area and who you face : /
 

Dr Peepee

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Well then CK, we'll find out in a few weeks now won't we? =p

I just haven't been pushed by anyone since I played Chu and Chillin. Maybe playing you I can step it up.



@Solid: I appreciate it, but, until I have some decent tournament experience/wins vs talneted players, I will never be considered to be anywhere good. I'm content with anonymity until I have a few good victories. Very nice of you to try to throw me out there though.


@topic: I agree with more of a situational style "hybrid" style. That's just me.
 
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