**Havok**
Smash Lord
So you wonder how this came about? It's called frustration. Getting gimped over and over, shuttle looped to death, being tornado'ed on a constant basis. One day on the verge of either taking up MK or snake or this matchup I decided that IT must, it can be done! I mean if a dumb character like Zangief in street fighter can hold his own (hes low tier) and completely destroy shoto's and so forth, then Marth should be able to do it vs non-akuma tier character. (you tell me MK is broken when honestly he's not, he's no AKUMA, He's no Yangmoth's Wil or Time Spiral)l I don't know how many countless hours i've put into THIS matchup. Yes, I'm weaker in other matchups but in this one, i feel so confident in. I would like to share this with the rest of the marth boards to show that it can be done and its not a bad matchup (not that 60-40/65-35 is that bad, well maybe), strictly(!) IMO i think its 50/50.
This thread is strictly on how to's and various solutions that I have come up with to MK's game.
Ok, the obvious stuff:
Marth's entire game revolves around a semi-defensive spacing game, which means in this matchup you can't be wreckless nor chase MK as much as Marth would like to.
-grab realeases >> fair, up-B, dash attack, Nair (this one's awkward though) etc...
-blocking tornado covering head
-you cannot chase MK too much off the stage (key word too much)
-SHFF 1 Fair on defense
-d throw to fsmash (0-7%)
-f throw-Nair-fsmash. 0%
The not so obvious:
HAVOK presents: GET ***** META KNIGHT!
Side Note: This will not gurantee you a win. A Marth will most likely never 3 stock an MK due to him being...MK. Understand due to the law of probability you WILL be grabbed, tornado'ed, dsmashed, d-tilted. LOSE. This increases your chances against MK and brings everything together. This info + you applying smart = win. Get it? Now read on!
** = Important
Dealing with tornado
When a Marth first comes across a MK, you realize that tornado can be a handful if not dealt with appropriately.
1. Many people just read that oh SHFF Fair vs MK...ill do that but you must realize why you are doing it and one of the reasons is the tornado! Playing ANY random metaknight they will they may or may not tornado you while you try to do a standard double SHFair and you get punished for it for being in the air. Solution: SHFF 1 Fair (empty SHFF works as well)! Fast falling allows you to be able to block the tornado much more effectively since you don't spend as much time in the air.
2.Up-B out of blocking tornado, this is actually very impractical which I will explain later, still useful to have the option.
3. Punishing tornado:
-Some MK's will try to be smart about it and finish tornado directly on marth, this = Up Smash or Up Tilt (depending where they are located it might not hit.).
- jumping retreating counter... (explained later why its RETREATED, emphasis, on retreating lawl)
-If Mk lands directly in front of you, forward smash or down smash should be used which i will explain later why.
-Trying to Fsmash earlier because of the start up time (im sorry we don't have an insan- MK-dsmash-speed Fsmash) and get the tornado is hard to do but its rewards are great if you manage to hit it. Best way to do this would be to try and predicting a tornado (and can hit him in start time). With practice this can become a great tool.
**Your best option is simply to block it (covering head) and run up to the MK and dancing blade (red version or ending it with Blue for the kill)
Marth's Forward Smash
1. When tornado ends in front of you try out a Fsmash. Why use Fsmash? Simple, because this move should not be used in this matchup which means it will always be fresh and deal more dmg than an overused Dancing Blade.
2. I don't know if its because of MK's size but this thing gets power shielded ALOT. Probably due to Fsmash coming out at 11 frames + MK's size
3. Don't try to go around and attempt to tipper this thing on MK because everything that MK has will outrange (except for MK's dtilt) or outprioritize this. In other words, this is impractical in this matchup
NEW DSmash (thx to pierce7d)
1. This is actually a good punisher! Even at low percentages it sends MK just far enough for Marth to recover, shield, retaliate, whatever. Tipper does like %15? non like %11? (need to verify this. In pierce7d's words:
**2. This kills at %115 Tippered, using the aforementioned method to have it connect!
Dancing Blade
Ahhhh sweet seductive dancing blade...if it wasn't for this Marth would not have a chance vs MK.
1.DO NOT USE the ending green version of Dancing Blade, the MK can DI away and punish you for it
**2. Ending dancing blade of the blue version tippered at %150 at Luigi's mansion (Very high ceiling) will kill, earlier at smaller stages . Why is this important to keep in mind? Because its safe (obviously if it connects)!
**3. In this matchup its ALMOST needed to finish Dancing Blade at all times, reason being that every percent dealt is extremely valuable vs MK and any dmg will do. I say almost because a mix up can help throw off an MK.
**4.Remember overusing this thing is a good thing!!! It refreshes the rest of your move set for you and deals dmg...what else do you need?
Dolphin Slash
1. Dolphin Slash out of shield vs tornado IS IMPRACTICAL! Unless at the edge, this can be done for a kill but ** even then...
Reason: It won't be fresh!!!!
This is extremely important because it needs to be saved for a grab release or just a simple Slash to kill
**...but even then...
You can just Dolphin Slash when you see the tornado in your face.
** the only reason up-B should be used when blocking a tornado would be to rack up dmg when you're a stock ahead and even then Dancing Blade is better to punish tornado.
2. You can DS Mk's Side-B ( if anyone wants to get tricky you can DS MK's side-B when he's trying to get to the stage)
3. Grab release >> Dolphin Slash, this actually kills at %140 with good MK DI, not %130
Marth's FAIR
1. Most of the time you'll be doing this vs MK, mostly SHFFFair.
2. Mixing it up with Double SH Fair and SHFFFair, spacing them correctly and accordingly to whatever the MK does IS EXTREMELY important in order to approach at all.
3. you can just do a full SH and do ONE Fair and throw off the MK with timing of your Fair. This useful because an full SH you avoid an entire MK Dsmash and then hit with the Fair.
Neutral Air
1. You can use this to space mk, i prefer a SHNair and don't fastfall, it lets me space this just a bit to get tippers with it or a Fsmash.
2. It's also nice to use this since it will always be fresh, so it'll deal the full amount pretty much.
**3. Clanks with mk's dash attack and beats running grab.
Counter
**1 Since marth has Crappy options while he's on top and MK can take severe advantage of this in the form of multiple tornados (since tornado pops marth up), this can be avoided with a counter, but Marth HAS to hit the side of the tornado for him to knock MK away.
2. You know when MK does his drill to get onto the stage? Run to the edge and counter! It's %8 or so of dmg, every little bit counts!
Grab Release!
1. If you try to revolve your entire game against MK with the grab release, you WILL lose. This is meant for opportunity and errors in spacing.
2. Mind game grab release:
-since most MK players expect you to do the grab release you can simply pummel them until they break free and then re-grab them and continue to pummel for extra dmg (again every little bit counts! + refresh = Too Good)
3. Grab release on smashville on the platform = Fsmash
4. Grab release into Dolphin Slash kills at %140 (big stages) with good MK DI, if not it can kill as early as %100ish (stage dependant)
5. Grab release into dash attack can kill at %120 tippered at the end of FD (which means less in smaller stages)...(I have no idea how to do this consistently)
JAB
1. This contributes to your wall of constant Fairs, dtilts allowing you to keep the MK outside of your wall.
2. This stops any Dair shenanigans, the jab reaches on top of marth allowing him to hit MK when he's trying to space you with Dairs. If a Jab connects, free dancing blade since the height isn't that great putting MK on a awkward falling position.
3. This comes out on 4 Frames! Much faster and much less laggier than Ftilt (8 frames) !
**Common MK (gameplay) Behavior and Marth Gameplan
1. Marth can be hanging onto the edge while MK is charging an Fmash that can hit your roll, hit your get up attack and maybe even your jump towards the stage (because of the stupid hitbox behind MK with is Fsmash). What do you do? Shield breaker (because of its range, although MK can still hit Marth's hand)! I know this sounds awful but if you incorporate this in order to get around charging Fmash, it's able to hit safely once MK's Fsmash is done.
**2. Some MK's use alot of their dash attack/dash grab >>> retreating SHFFFair, or Dash back then dancing blade him/Pivot Grab! Keep MK controlled!!!
**3.If MK manages to down throw you, a good option is to tech roll! Depending on the person, after a dthrow he might:
-start to tornado (then teching behind him is a terrible option)
-attempt another dash grab/ attack (which means tech rolling backwards is safe and you can punish)
OR
-At higher percentages marth can Fair MK away on his attempt to follow up with dash Attack or another grab
4.While marth is recovering vs MK from off the stage, Mk will usually try and follow you to attempt a Shuttle Loop, your best bet? Attempt to Fair MK
- Air dodge is terrible because if he reads it, you're done although it can be good to mix it up with the Fair
-counter is terrible (in this situation) same as above + it stops your momentum and can put you in a awkward position trying to get the edge AKA your Dolphin Slash might end up underneath the stage. The only way this could be viable is if you can read his Up-B but still, you might end up with weird positioning
- Why Fair? Because 2 of the other options allows a Smart MK to punish accordingly, at least with a Fair you'll have a chance to hit MK away so you can recover or at least trade the hit (you can die
). If you did it correctly the Shuttle Loop sound will go off but MK will get hit instead of you.
5. Remember you can jab his glide attack (BUT YOU have to do it sooner because his glide attack comes out much quicker). A smart MK will know when to slash on the glide to where he will land far enough so that you will not be able to grab him after blocking!
6. As I stated earlier, you can't chase MK outside of the ring as much as a marth would like to. Key word as much . For example if MK is knocked far away from the stage and he starts to glide back to the stage you can go after him and bait his glide attack. Follow him out -full jump- (backwards since Bair can kill him at that point) and DI towards the stage when you sense his glide attack coming. As soon as you see it whiff that's your chance to hit him with the Bair (do it quickly or he will Shuttle Loop you)!
7. Spacing MK with a wall of Dtilts, Fairs, and Jabs can become a liability, an MK CAN tornado Marth in between dtilts! In the air when Fair-ing.
-The only way you can beat MK's dtilt is by keeping in mind the amount of ground Marth covers for every Dtilt and try to get MK in between dtilts. A failed attempt will result in clash or you getting hit (very hard).
-DI back when you get caught in MK's Ftilt, sometimes you can manage to not get caught in the last swipe.
-a forward throw only means one thing : Shuttle loop to try and kill you. So DI back, or try to counter.
-Walking is not that great to space MK in this matchup, reacting accordingly with a dash either way can be much more helpful. Although it can help sometimes.
9. A not so smart MK will try to Shuttle loop you when you're trying to edge guard him (when he's hanging down), Easy solution means just block both hits and grab, pummel to your hearts content, this releases MK Down (Gravity Funk).
8. The greatest asset that a Marth can have in this matchup (and in every matchup for that matter as it is common knowledge) is to try to be unpredictable! If an MK starts to run up to you and blocks expecting a Dancing Blade or a SHFFFair, grab! Next time throw in a SHFFFair and so forth! Try different rhythms of grab-mindgames, sometimes just do the grab release, other times continue to pummel into another grab! And so forth.
9. MK Fair happy and beating your Fairs? Can be beat with jab (if done from up high) or double jump Fair (if done from below AKA shfair)
MK's Dangerous moveset
**Marth's most feared moveset from MK: (ranked from best to worst vs marth)
Scary group
0.D-smash
1. Nair
2. Dtilt
3.Ftilt
4. Dair (off stage)
5. Shuttle Loop
Do-able group
6. Up Air
7. tornado
8. Grabs
Yea, Whateva group
9. Bair
10. Fair
11. Fsmash
12. everything else
Reason: Scary because of their range, possible quick dmg accumulation which leads into dangerous shuttle loops. Do-ables because there are solutions to them or they're not entirely as threatning as the other ones. And the rest because they shoudn't worry marth as much.
0. Dsmash . This move is completely rediculous It comes out quick, almost no ending lag and hard to punish. This CAN gimp you at early percentages on the edge! D-Smash + edgehog, possible death for Marth. Jab can clash with this but its hard to do this consistantly. An MK can reuse this over and over and not care whether it's fresh or not.
**when near an MK, BLOCK (roling behind MK does NOT work, however rolling away does.)! Yes, a grab is almost better than getting hit by this thing. But obviously you can't afford to get grabbed all day long so this is where the player using MK will let you know if he's DSmash-happy or not hence the blocking or not (into the whole grab release thing)
1. Nair...Arrrrrghhh! This is a titan hit when marth mis-spaces MK, it has HUGE knockback at higher percentages and can also lead to gimps. This is dangerous when it comes to MK edge guarding Marth, because if MK manages to get the edge first and you know the invincibility frames will be longer than the time your Dolphin slash will get there, sometimes Marth has to settle with landing on the edge- plus possible landing lag doesn't help- (Marth players should know what I'm talking about.) which means you're going to eat a Nair.
2.Dtilt. Jesus, It doesn't end does it? This can be potentially be better than Nair but the fact that it doesn't kill itself ranks it just below, it does however lead to some nasty set ups with grabs, and sometimes smashes...or you know more dtilts. Remember this thing hits on frame 3 to marths dtilt on frame 7 .
** Have iron reflexes? If you ever see a dtilt, FSMASH! It outranges it barely
3.Ftilt. From my experience this seems to be the most annoying piece of equipment that MK has. This has the potential to ruin Marth's spacing because of its range, a slightly improper spaced Fair will eat one of these so be careful with MK's that use this wisely.
4. Dair. On the stage these aren't that troublesome since you can swat them away with a Jab buuuuuuut off stage they become a nightmare at any percentage since he can do it multiple times to keep you away from the edge with the numerous jumps that MK has. Oh and it kills straight up fresh at high percentages.
**Try Fair an MK away when he tries to come at you to Dair you.
5. Shuttle Loop. Unfortunately this does kill at earlier percentage gimps and completely kills at higher percentages. We all know what this thing does.
** Again, your best bet? Fair ahead of time or DI around it to bait it, last option airdoge, if you can read then counter.
6. Now some of you are thinking what are you talking about!? Uair is crazy vs Marth. Well yes it is but you can simply DI away to a direction without getting wrecked.
7.Tornado, I've read that you can not use the control stick and marth pops up so you can air dodge...its inconsistent. I usually DI up and jump. Counter, Dolphin slash, fmash, Nuff' said.
8. Grabs, these are a nightmare to Marths who don't know to DI AWAY from MK or you will eat a shuttle loop. Teching also helps.
9. Bair is considerably slower than its forward version so you can beat it with your Fair. It does beat your Fair if he's doing it space you with a wall of them.
10. Fair. Less range than Bair but does come out quicker.
**Can be beat with jab (if done from up high) or double jump Fair (if done from below AKA shfair)
Stages in the matchup
-Neutrals: These are probably your best
-Final destination/Smashville: IDEAL to play vs MK because of the grab release, easy to recover without getting stuck under the edge.
-Battlefield: The hardest to work in because your grab release is harder execute. You must grab at the end of a platform (middle part of the stage) in order to get a hit in at the edge with (Fair, dash attack etc.) Still do-able
-Yoshi's Island: Still do-able, grab right under the platform to get your grab release going.
-Lylat/Pokeman Stadium: A bit harder since lylat tilts and has platforms everywhere and PK is huge and ruins Marth's spacing for this match up and that edge is annoying as well, you might get stuck under. Worst of your neutrals.
Worst Stages (or at least some sort of disadvantage)
-WILL EDIT
Approaching Metaknight!
**For those who think you can't approach MK, you're wrong. You can. No, not reckless, SMART. You have to play according to whatever you see MK doing.
-spacing you with F-tilts = run shield, punish dancing blade
-dtilt spacing you = block, punish with dsmash.
-Yes, unfortunately a lot of the game plan that marth has in this matchup revolves around shielding. Does that make it defensive, No it doesnt. Basically, it's just a GIGANTIC rock/paper/scissors match.
-Double Fair does work but you cannot rely on it like you would in other matches, you get tornado(ed). FFSHFair is optimal, it provides the spacing you need, the the dmg.
-Full jumping Fairs is actually an option, when MK starts going crazy on you with Fairs to space you outside, this comes in handy because Fair goes from diagonal up to diagonal down so you can come down on MK with a Fair.
-Running dancing blade IS an approach. Why does it work? Because it come out on four frames ppl!
VIDEOS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74Du6xZh7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txygATa2P7k
Frame Data
UPDATE:
Ok so the metagame has evolved some but most of this information still stands with a few minor changes that from both sides.
-So upair is amazing vs MK, an upthrow, dancing blade ending up, (etc basically anything that puts the MK in the air) puts him at an awkward postion especially at high percents:
1. Either he tries to come down and airdodge which if the marth reads puts him in the air again
2. He keeps jumping to avoid which results in the MK having less jumps now which can make his landing much easier to predict.
3. He tries to trade, which isn't a good one at high percents.
4. He might start anticipating your upair so he'll tornado, that's just a bad choice overall since you can punish hie landing easily.
Note: because you can use upair like this it makes me feel like you shouldn't hold onto Dolphin Slash or the kill anymore
-Upsmash is THE punisher in this matchup (if no range then dancing blade). Blocked tornado? Upsmash. Blocked grounded shuttle loop? Run-in upsmash. Knock him off an edge of a platform? Upsmash.
1. It deals %18 fresh
2. puts him in the awkward situation (see above)
-The semi-random factor in the matchup, Fsmash: (times you can use this)
1. This actually outspaces the first TWO hits of MK's ftilt and hits Tippered. NOT the third hit though.
2. (not sure if this is %100 correct) fsmash mighhhht be as long as MK's first dsmash hit.
3. Spamming this like an idiot is almost not a bad idea. Almost. Looking for tippers and getting lucky can lopside the match sometimes making the MK approach you since you're a stock ahead (assuming he lost a stock because of it) which is smooth sailing since you can block grab and just predict his dash grabs.
-Spotdodge
1. This ****** move is actually useful just against one thing, dash grab. Use it sparingly. You can tell when an MK wants to grab, when he runs and you don't see a foot coming your way about an 2/3's of an fsmash away.
I have a little more info...
This thread is strictly on how to's and various solutions that I have come up with to MK's game.
Ok, the obvious stuff:
Marth's entire game revolves around a semi-defensive spacing game, which means in this matchup you can't be wreckless nor chase MK as much as Marth would like to.
-grab realeases >> fair, up-B, dash attack, Nair (this one's awkward though) etc...
-blocking tornado covering head
-you cannot chase MK too much off the stage (key word too much)
-SHFF 1 Fair on defense
-d throw to fsmash (0-7%)
-f throw-Nair-fsmash. 0%
The not so obvious:
HAVOK presents: GET ***** META KNIGHT!
Side Note: This will not gurantee you a win. A Marth will most likely never 3 stock an MK due to him being...MK. Understand due to the law of probability you WILL be grabbed, tornado'ed, dsmashed, d-tilted. LOSE. This increases your chances against MK and brings everything together. This info + you applying smart = win. Get it? Now read on!
** = Important
Dealing with tornado
When a Marth first comes across a MK, you realize that tornado can be a handful if not dealt with appropriately.
1. Many people just read that oh SHFF Fair vs MK...ill do that but you must realize why you are doing it and one of the reasons is the tornado! Playing ANY random metaknight they will they may or may not tornado you while you try to do a standard double SHFair and you get punished for it for being in the air. Solution: SHFF 1 Fair (empty SHFF works as well)! Fast falling allows you to be able to block the tornado much more effectively since you don't spend as much time in the air.
2.Up-B out of blocking tornado, this is actually very impractical which I will explain later, still useful to have the option.
3. Punishing tornado:
-Some MK's will try to be smart about it and finish tornado directly on marth, this = Up Smash or Up Tilt (depending where they are located it might not hit.).
- jumping retreating counter... (explained later why its RETREATED, emphasis, on retreating lawl)
-If Mk lands directly in front of you, forward smash or down smash should be used which i will explain later why.
-Trying to Fsmash earlier because of the start up time (im sorry we don't have an insan- MK-dsmash-speed Fsmash) and get the tornado is hard to do but its rewards are great if you manage to hit it. Best way to do this would be to try and predicting a tornado (and can hit him in start time). With practice this can become a great tool.
**Your best option is simply to block it (covering head) and run up to the MK and dancing blade (red version or ending it with Blue for the kill)
Marth's Forward Smash
1. When tornado ends in front of you try out a Fsmash. Why use Fsmash? Simple, because this move should not be used in this matchup which means it will always be fresh and deal more dmg than an overused Dancing Blade.
2. I don't know if its because of MK's size but this thing gets power shielded ALOT. Probably due to Fsmash coming out at 11 frames + MK's size
3. Don't try to go around and attempt to tipper this thing on MK because everything that MK has will outrange (except for MK's dtilt) or outprioritize this. In other words, this is impractical in this matchup
NEW DSmash (thx to pierce7d)
1. This is actually a good punisher! Even at low percentages it sends MK just far enough for Marth to recover, shield, retaliate, whatever. Tipper does like %15? non like %11? (need to verify this. In pierce7d's words:
**2. This kills at %115 Tippered, using the aforementioned method to have it connect!
Dancing Blade
Ahhhh sweet seductive dancing blade...if it wasn't for this Marth would not have a chance vs MK.
1.DO NOT USE the ending green version of Dancing Blade, the MK can DI away and punish you for it
**2. Ending dancing blade of the blue version tippered at %150 at Luigi's mansion (Very high ceiling) will kill, earlier at smaller stages . Why is this important to keep in mind? Because its safe (obviously if it connects)!
**3. In this matchup its ALMOST needed to finish Dancing Blade at all times, reason being that every percent dealt is extremely valuable vs MK and any dmg will do. I say almost because a mix up can help throw off an MK.
**4.Remember overusing this thing is a good thing!!! It refreshes the rest of your move set for you and deals dmg...what else do you need?
Dolphin Slash
1. Dolphin Slash out of shield vs tornado IS IMPRACTICAL! Unless at the edge, this can be done for a kill but ** even then...
Reason: It won't be fresh!!!!
This is extremely important because it needs to be saved for a grab release or just a simple Slash to kill
**...but even then...
You can just Dolphin Slash when you see the tornado in your face.
** the only reason up-B should be used when blocking a tornado would be to rack up dmg when you're a stock ahead and even then Dancing Blade is better to punish tornado.
2. You can DS Mk's Side-B ( if anyone wants to get tricky you can DS MK's side-B when he's trying to get to the stage)
3. Grab release >> Dolphin Slash, this actually kills at %140 with good MK DI, not %130
Marth's FAIR
1. Most of the time you'll be doing this vs MK, mostly SHFFFair.
2. Mixing it up with Double SH Fair and SHFFFair, spacing them correctly and accordingly to whatever the MK does IS EXTREMELY important in order to approach at all.
3. you can just do a full SH and do ONE Fair and throw off the MK with timing of your Fair. This useful because an full SH you avoid an entire MK Dsmash and then hit with the Fair.
Neutral Air
1. You can use this to space mk, i prefer a SHNair and don't fastfall, it lets me space this just a bit to get tippers with it or a Fsmash.
2. It's also nice to use this since it will always be fresh, so it'll deal the full amount pretty much.
**3. Clanks with mk's dash attack and beats running grab.
Counter
**1 Since marth has Crappy options while he's on top and MK can take severe advantage of this in the form of multiple tornados (since tornado pops marth up), this can be avoided with a counter, but Marth HAS to hit the side of the tornado for him to knock MK away.
2. You know when MK does his drill to get onto the stage? Run to the edge and counter! It's %8 or so of dmg, every little bit counts!
Grab Release!
1. If you try to revolve your entire game against MK with the grab release, you WILL lose. This is meant for opportunity and errors in spacing.
2. Mind game grab release:
-since most MK players expect you to do the grab release you can simply pummel them until they break free and then re-grab them and continue to pummel for extra dmg (again every little bit counts! + refresh = Too Good)
3. Grab release on smashville on the platform = Fsmash
4. Grab release into Dolphin Slash kills at %140 (big stages) with good MK DI, if not it can kill as early as %100ish (stage dependant)
5. Grab release into dash attack can kill at %120 tippered at the end of FD (which means less in smaller stages)...(I have no idea how to do this consistently)
JAB
1. This contributes to your wall of constant Fairs, dtilts allowing you to keep the MK outside of your wall.
2. This stops any Dair shenanigans, the jab reaches on top of marth allowing him to hit MK when he's trying to space you with Dairs. If a Jab connects, free dancing blade since the height isn't that great putting MK on a awkward falling position.
3. This comes out on 4 Frames! Much faster and much less laggier than Ftilt (8 frames) !
**Common MK (gameplay) Behavior and Marth Gameplan
1. Marth can be hanging onto the edge while MK is charging an Fmash that can hit your roll, hit your get up attack and maybe even your jump towards the stage (because of the stupid hitbox behind MK with is Fsmash). What do you do? Shield breaker (because of its range, although MK can still hit Marth's hand)! I know this sounds awful but if you incorporate this in order to get around charging Fmash, it's able to hit safely once MK's Fsmash is done.
**2. Some MK's use alot of their dash attack/dash grab >>> retreating SHFFFair, or Dash back then dancing blade him/Pivot Grab! Keep MK controlled!!!
**3.If MK manages to down throw you, a good option is to tech roll! Depending on the person, after a dthrow he might:
-start to tornado (then teching behind him is a terrible option)
-attempt another dash grab/ attack (which means tech rolling backwards is safe and you can punish)
OR
-At higher percentages marth can Fair MK away on his attempt to follow up with dash Attack or another grab
4.While marth is recovering vs MK from off the stage, Mk will usually try and follow you to attempt a Shuttle Loop, your best bet? Attempt to Fair MK
- Air dodge is terrible because if he reads it, you're done although it can be good to mix it up with the Fair
-counter is terrible (in this situation) same as above + it stops your momentum and can put you in a awkward position trying to get the edge AKA your Dolphin Slash might end up underneath the stage. The only way this could be viable is if you can read his Up-B but still, you might end up with weird positioning
- Why Fair? Because 2 of the other options allows a Smart MK to punish accordingly, at least with a Fair you'll have a chance to hit MK away so you can recover or at least trade the hit (you can die
). If you did it correctly the Shuttle Loop sound will go off but MK will get hit instead of you.5. Remember you can jab his glide attack (BUT YOU have to do it sooner because his glide attack comes out much quicker). A smart MK will know when to slash on the glide to where he will land far enough so that you will not be able to grab him after blocking!
6. As I stated earlier, you can't chase MK outside of the ring as much as a marth would like to. Key word as much . For example if MK is knocked far away from the stage and he starts to glide back to the stage you can go after him and bait his glide attack. Follow him out -full jump- (backwards since Bair can kill him at that point) and DI towards the stage when you sense his glide attack coming. As soon as you see it whiff that's your chance to hit him with the Bair (do it quickly or he will Shuttle Loop you)!
7. Spacing MK with a wall of Dtilts, Fairs, and Jabs can become a liability, an MK CAN tornado Marth in between dtilts! In the air when Fair-ing.
-The only way you can beat MK's dtilt is by keeping in mind the amount of ground Marth covers for every Dtilt and try to get MK in between dtilts. A failed attempt will result in clash or you getting hit (very hard).
-DI back when you get caught in MK's Ftilt, sometimes you can manage to not get caught in the last swipe.
-a forward throw only means one thing : Shuttle loop to try and kill you. So DI back, or try to counter.
-Walking is not that great to space MK in this matchup, reacting accordingly with a dash either way can be much more helpful. Although it can help sometimes.
9. A not so smart MK will try to Shuttle loop you when you're trying to edge guard him (when he's hanging down), Easy solution means just block both hits and grab, pummel to your hearts content, this releases MK Down (Gravity Funk).
8. The greatest asset that a Marth can have in this matchup (and in every matchup for that matter as it is common knowledge) is to try to be unpredictable! If an MK starts to run up to you and blocks expecting a Dancing Blade or a SHFFFair, grab! Next time throw in a SHFFFair and so forth! Try different rhythms of grab-mindgames, sometimes just do the grab release, other times continue to pummel into another grab! And so forth.
9. MK Fair happy and beating your Fairs? Can be beat with jab (if done from up high) or double jump Fair (if done from below AKA shfair)
MK's Dangerous moveset
**Marth's most feared moveset from MK: (ranked from best to worst vs marth)
Scary group
0.D-smash
1. Nair
2. Dtilt
3.Ftilt
4. Dair (off stage)
5. Shuttle Loop
Do-able group
6. Up Air
7. tornado
8. Grabs
Yea, Whateva group
9. Bair
10. Fair
11. Fsmash
12. everything else
Reason: Scary because of their range, possible quick dmg accumulation which leads into dangerous shuttle loops. Do-ables because there are solutions to them or they're not entirely as threatning as the other ones. And the rest because they shoudn't worry marth as much.
0. Dsmash
. This move is completely rediculous It comes out quick, almost no ending lag and hard to punish. This CAN gimp you at early percentages on the edge! D-Smash + edgehog, possible death for Marth. Jab can clash with this but its hard to do this consistantly. An MK can reuse this over and over and not care whether it's fresh or not. **when near an MK, BLOCK (roling behind MK does NOT work, however rolling away does.)! Yes, a grab is almost better than getting hit by this thing. But obviously you can't afford to get grabbed all day long so this is where the player using MK will let you know if he's DSmash-happy or not hence the blocking or not (into the whole grab release thing)
1. Nair...Arrrrrghhh! This is a titan hit when marth mis-spaces MK, it has HUGE knockback at higher percentages and can also lead to gimps. This is dangerous when it comes to MK edge guarding Marth, because if MK manages to get the edge first and you know the invincibility frames will be longer than the time your Dolphin slash will get there, sometimes Marth has to settle with landing on the edge- plus possible landing lag doesn't help- (Marth players should know what I'm talking about.) which means you're going to eat a Nair.
2.Dtilt. Jesus, It doesn't end does it? This can be potentially be better than Nair but the fact that it doesn't kill itself ranks it just below, it does however lead to some nasty set ups with grabs, and sometimes smashes...or you know more dtilts. Remember this thing hits on frame 3 to marths dtilt on frame 7
.** Have iron reflexes? If you ever see a dtilt, FSMASH! It outranges it barely
3.Ftilt. From my experience this seems to be the most annoying piece of equipment that MK has. This has the potential to ruin Marth's spacing because of its range, a slightly improper spaced Fair will eat one of these so be careful with MK's that use this wisely.
4. Dair. On the stage these aren't that troublesome since you can swat them away with a Jab buuuuuuut off stage they become a nightmare at any percentage since he can do it multiple times to keep you away from the edge with the numerous jumps that MK has. Oh and it kills straight up fresh at high percentages.
**Try Fair an MK away when he tries to come at you to Dair you.
5. Shuttle Loop. Unfortunately this does kill at earlier percentage gimps and completely kills at higher percentages. We all know what this thing does.
** Again, your best bet? Fair ahead of time or DI around it to bait it, last option airdoge, if you can read then counter.
6. Now some of you are thinking what are you talking about!? Uair is crazy vs Marth. Well yes it is but you can simply DI away to a direction without getting wrecked.
7.Tornado, I've read that you can not use the control stick and marth pops up so you can air dodge...its inconsistent. I usually DI up and jump. Counter, Dolphin slash, fmash, Nuff' said.
8. Grabs, these are a nightmare to Marths who don't know to DI AWAY from MK or you will eat a shuttle loop. Teching also helps.
9. Bair is considerably slower than its forward version so you can beat it with your Fair. It does beat your Fair if he's doing it space you with a wall of them.
10. Fair. Less range than Bair but does come out quicker.
**Can be beat with jab (if done from up high) or double jump Fair (if done from below AKA shfair)
Stages in the matchup
-Neutrals: These are probably your best
-Final destination/Smashville: IDEAL to play vs MK because of the grab release, easy to recover without getting stuck under the edge.
-Battlefield: The hardest to work in because your grab release is harder execute. You must grab at the end of a platform (middle part of the stage) in order to get a hit in at the edge with (Fair, dash attack etc.) Still do-able
-Yoshi's Island: Still do-able, grab right under the platform to get your grab release going.
-Lylat/Pokeman Stadium: A bit harder since lylat tilts and has platforms everywhere and PK is huge and ruins Marth's spacing for this match up and that edge is annoying as well, you might get stuck under. Worst of your neutrals.
Worst Stages (or at least some sort of disadvantage)
-WILL EDIT
Approaching Metaknight!
**For those who think you can't approach MK, you're wrong. You can. No, not reckless, SMART. You have to play according to whatever you see MK doing.
-spacing you with F-tilts = run shield, punish dancing blade
-dtilt spacing you = block, punish with dsmash.
-Yes, unfortunately a lot of the game plan that marth has in this matchup revolves around shielding. Does that make it defensive, No it doesnt. Basically, it's just a GIGANTIC rock/paper/scissors match.
-Double Fair does work but you cannot rely on it like you would in other matches, you get tornado(ed). FFSHFair is optimal, it provides the spacing you need, the the dmg.
-Full jumping Fairs is actually an option, when MK starts going crazy on you with Fairs to space you outside, this comes in handy because Fair goes from diagonal up to diagonal down so you can come down on MK with a Fair.
-Running dancing blade IS an approach. Why does it work? Because it come out on four frames ppl!
VIDEOS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74Du6xZh7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txygATa2P7k
Frame Data
Marth
Jab: 4
Forward Tilt: 8
Up Tilt: 6
Down Tilt: 7
Dash Attack: 13
Up Smash: 12
Down Smash: 7
Forward Smash: 11
Forward B: 5
Neutral B: 21
Up B: 5
Forward Air: 3
Back Air: 6
Down Air: 6
Up Air: 5
Neutral Air: 6
Meta Knight
Jab: 7
Forward Tilt: 3
Up Tilt: 8
Down Tilt: 3
Dash Attack: 5
Up Smash: 8
Down Smash: 5
Forward Smash: 24
Forward B: 25
Neutral B: 12
Up B: 8
Forward Air: 6
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 4
Up Air: 2
Neutral Air: 3
UPDATE:
Ok so the metagame has evolved some but most of this information still stands with a few minor changes that from both sides.
-So upair is amazing vs MK, an upthrow, dancing blade ending up, (etc basically anything that puts the MK in the air) puts him at an awkward postion especially at high percents:
1. Either he tries to come down and airdodge which if the marth reads puts him in the air again
2. He keeps jumping to avoid which results in the MK having less jumps now which can make his landing much easier to predict.
3. He tries to trade, which isn't a good one at high percents.
4. He might start anticipating your upair so he'll tornado, that's just a bad choice overall since you can punish hie landing easily.
Note: because you can use upair like this it makes me feel like you shouldn't hold onto Dolphin Slash or the kill anymore
-Upsmash is THE punisher in this matchup (if no range then dancing blade). Blocked tornado? Upsmash. Blocked grounded shuttle loop? Run-in upsmash. Knock him off an edge of a platform? Upsmash.
1. It deals %18 fresh
2. puts him in the awkward situation (see above)
-The semi-random factor in the matchup, Fsmash: (times you can use this)
1. This actually outspaces the first TWO hits of MK's ftilt and hits Tippered. NOT the third hit though.
2. (not sure if this is %100 correct) fsmash mighhhht be as long as MK's first dsmash hit.
3. Spamming this like an idiot is almost not a bad idea. Almost. Looking for tippers and getting lucky can lopside the match sometimes making the MK approach you since you're a stock ahead (assuming he lost a stock because of it) which is smooth sailing since you can block grab and just predict his dash grabs.
-Spotdodge
1. This ****** move is actually useful just against one thing, dash grab. Use it sparingly. You can tell when an MK wants to grab, when he runs and you don't see a foot coming your way about an 2/3's of an fsmash away.
I have a little more info...
