KarhuTurnaus ~ Finnish ssbm/ssbb tourney feat. AJP, Peki, Samo, Vilness, NHJ and more

This is the first time finnish tournament videos have been posted on smashboards video discussion boards, but it also marks the first time we have AJP Anton recorded videos to show off to other smashers. This tournament was held in Espoo, 17-19th of October 2008 so it's very recent and we have plentiful videos from both of our top smashers and new recruits whom show potential and those who'd still need to improve their gameplay in order to keep up, but I hope you viewers will enjoy these videos regardless and give out comments and criticism for the players. Any troll, spammer or flamer will be promptly met with a stitchface in the face though.

I highly recommend downloading AJP anton's videos, seeing as tube effed up the vids more than normal, but I will put down both youtube whenever they are available and download links. AJP anton videos have low filesize in contrast to their superb quality, 60fps seems to run more smoothly than the actual game and you can even slow it down to frame by frame if you see something interesting. All the videos linked to tube are in hiqh quality mode, so you need to click the normal quality if you want to watch them. If the video is unavailable for some reason, click the normal quality and it should fix itself (might happen for some reason I dunno). Sorry for the sound desynch on some videos as well, dunno what happened when ajp encoded teh vids. :/

The tournaments held were melee singles, teams and crew, and brawl singles. PAL versions were used on melee and for brawl, mixed up. Melee singles has videos available, melee teams, crews and brawl videos will come later (though finnish scene for brawl is lackuster due to not much interest in brawl).

http://ajp.no-ip.org/ssbm/Karhunturnaus/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=pekitor&view=videos
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Samochan&view=videos

Singles bracket
Teams bracket


SSBM SINGLES


Finals:

Singles finals download

Winners semifinal:

Samo (peach) vs bËst (marth) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs bËst (zelda) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Peki (fox) vs NHJ (sheik) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) vs NHJ (sheik) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Winners final:

Samo (peach) vs Peki (fox) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Peki (fox) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Peki (fox) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Peki (fox) 4 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers quarter finals:

NHJ (sheik) vs Vilness (luigi) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
NHJ (sheik) vs Vilness (mario) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Neutroni (marth) vs bËst (ic) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Neutroni (marth) vs bËst (ic) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Neutroni (marth) vs bËst (ic) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers semifinal:

Neutroni (marth) vs NHJ (fox) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Neutroni (marth) vs NHJ (fox) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers final:

Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 4 ~ Stream ~ Download


Grand final:

Peki (fox) vs Neutroni (marth) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) vs Neutroni (marth) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) vs Neutroni (marth) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (sheik) vs Neutroni (marth) 4 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (sheik) vs Neutroni (marth) 5 ~ Stream ~ Download


Bracket:

Bracket matches download

Winners bracket round 1:

Vilness (luigi) vs Udikku (fox) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Vilness (luigi) vs Udikku (fox) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Peki (fox) vs Laatikko (sheik) 1 ~ ~Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) vs Laatikko (c.falcon) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Omega (marth) vs AJP (falco) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Omega (marth) vs AJP (falco) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers bracket round 1:

Udikku (falco) vs Uchi (sheik) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Udikku (falco) vs Uchi (sheik) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

AJP (falco) vs Lamperi (fox) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
AJP (falco) vs Lamperi (fox) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers bracket round 2:

MasterTK (falco) vs Udikku (red falco) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
MasterTK (falco) vs Udikku (red falco) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Losers bracket round 3:

Vilness (luigi) vs Omega (marth) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Vilness (luigi) vs Omega (marth) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download



Pools:

Pool matches download

Vilness (mario) vs AJP (falco) 1 ~ Download
Vilness (fox) vs AJP (falco) 2 ~ ~ Download
Vilness (luigi) vs AJP (falco) 3 ~ ~Download

Peki (fox) vs AJP (falco) 1 ~ ~ Download
Peki (marth) vs AJP (falco) 2 ~ Download
Peki (fox) vs AJP (falco) 3 ~ ~ Download

Samo (peach) vs Jaxi (jigglypuff) 1 ~ ~ Stream ~ ~ Download
Samo (w marth) vs Jaxi (red marth) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download


SSBM TEAMS


Finals:

Teams finals download

Winners quarterfinal:

Peki (fox) & NHJ (sheik) vs Neutroni (marth) & Worm (sheik) 1 ~ ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) & NHJ (sheik) vs Neutroni (marth) & Worm (c.falcon) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Winners semifinal:

Peki (fox) & NHJ (sheik) vs Samo (peach) & AJP (falco) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (fox) & NHJ (sheik) vs Samo (peach) & AJP (falco) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download

Winners final:

Peki (sheik) & NHJ (light sheik) vs MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (fox) 1 ~
Stream ~ Download
Peki (sheik) & NHJ (light sheik) vs MasterTK (marth) & Udikku (light marth) 2 ~
Stream ~ Download
Peki (sheik) & NHJ (light sheik) vs MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (dorf) 3 ~
Stream ~ Download

Losers final:

MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (fox) vs bËst (ic) & zäp (zelda) 1 ~ ~ ~ Stream ~ Download
MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (fox) vs bËst (marth) & zäp (zelda) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (fox) vs bËst (peach) & zäp (zelda) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download


Grand final:

Peki (light sheik) & NHJ (sheik) vs MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (marth) 1
~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (light sheik) & NHJ (sheik) vs MasterTK (fox) & Udikku (peach) 2
~ Stream ~ Download
Peki (sheik) & NHJ (marth) vs MasterTK (falco) & Udikku (peach) 3
~ Stream ~ Download


Others:

Crews:

Crew Stream ~ Crew download

Samo (peach) vs Neutroni (marth) ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs MasterTK (falco) ~ Stream ~ Download

(rest of the crew matches come later, my matches were copypasted from another thread)

Casuals:

Download tv1 ~ Download tv2

Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 1 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 2 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 3 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 4 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 5 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 6 ~ Stream ~ Download
Samo (peach) vs AJP Anton (falco) 7 ~ Stream ~ Download

--

Criticism, comments, ratings and whatever (cept trolling, spamming, flaming and generaly being mean and idiot, fear the stitchfaces) is approved and encouraged. ^_^ More videos will be added later when available.

samochan i love your peach. its REDICULOUS lol... nah but really keep up the good work.

in ur 6th vid vs AJP Anton, that last combo was too good! Makes me wanna go eat some ice cream and cake.


-MikeyG

someone thinks a finnish player is good? wut

Ijuka said:

someone thinks a finnish player is good? wut

Click to expand...

Why not? Least you don't have anyone saying you're good cause you weren't even there.

Well >_> It's funny they compliment you though! I mean, Peach *_*

Ijuka said:

Well >_> It's funny they compliment you though! I mean, Peach *_*

Click to expand...

It's funny they don't ever compliment you though.

Peach is a character all the same and mike g happens to think mine is good enough to watch and compliment, as do many others. <_< So no johns and come to tournaments.

good vids, i like that marth.
9/10

hahaha, someone was trying to convince me europe had great players.

yeah right

NeighborhoodP said:

hahaha, someone was trying to convince me europe had great players.

yeah right

Click to expand...

Excuse me sir, are you illiterate, just dumb or both since your brains did not grasp what I said about trolling? I let you know I'm most adept in comboing with stitchface.

*throws one at neighborhood's face in 3 hit combo*

Besides, we're scandinavians, we're a totally different grouping cause we're so cool

I played horribly the entire Melee singles and doubles. :[
I started to get the hang of it in crews, where I managed to take out 7 stocks, and finally got to my own level of play after that.

It must be because I slept 3 hours before Saturday (Melee singles and doubles were held on Saturday) and 3 hours before Friday (I was rolling in my bed for 5 hours...good times... >_>).

Also, I should probably just stick to Jigglypuff.

btw: It's I kind a nice fact to notice who really was spending time with the recording TV:s... about 70% of the matches belongs to Samo :D.

Anyways it was to have good recording options for the first time ever even thought I'm not so after videos anyway, but thanks to AJP about that

Great vids I want to have sex with peki's fox.

NeighborhoodP said:

hahaha, someone was trying to convince me europe had great players.

yeah right

Click to expand...

Don't you have anything better to do then to troll every thread that mentions european smashers and/or flame m2k while sucking drephens **** (in threads that don't mention european smashers)?

Hey, here´s one really good pool vid of me vs. Julle :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stCfgiLwBQI

Check out the part from 2:00 to forward. :D

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

Great vids I want to have sex with peki's fox.


Don't you have anything better to do then to troll every thread that mentions european smashers and/or flame m2k while sucking drephens **** (in threads that don't mention european smashers)?

Click to expand...

i'm sorry you have low standards, but they really weren't good. the average skill level in areas like socal or florida would give europeans fits. i expect more from the so-called best.

NeighborhoodP has been given a warning for his unnecessary negative posts in this thread. No one here was doing anything wrong, in fact you all seem very positive and seem to enjoy Smash very much. Keep it up guys, great vids.

vilness! i was hoping to see your ness
mario's Up-B rlz, i never seen a person pull it out on a match O_O

nice finals, the last match was so exciting and too sad x_X

I love the option to watch it via stream or to download the videos.

<3 watching all

NeighborhoodP said:

hahaha, someone was trying to convince me europe had great players.

yeah right

Click to expand...

Wow, you're a gigantic troll O_o

These aren't the "so-called best", actually finnish players are pretty bad in general. Of course USA is better, but you can just keep it to yourself >_> Or at least actually comment about the best. Seems like you're just hiding behind the backs of the good players of your country, so to speak. If you want to comment about the best, you could try playing against Amsah. He can 4-stock pretty much every one of us.


Oh, and VilNess can pull off the up B walljump with a really nice %. He can also do Doc's up B cancel nearly all the time.

Bëst- Try to get some more speed with your IC´s, doesnt mean just WD back and forth, but also just WD in place for getting more unpredictable (seen one match).


Any Brawl results? (players and chars. I see the melee brackets but...)

Smasher89 said:

Any Brawl results? (players and chars. I see the melee brackets but...)

Click to expand...

Don't know if Samo (or someone else) has a pic of brackets saved (EDIT: or now that I think of it, I don't think we used any computer at all when organising Brawl tournament, just good old paper and pen ) but here are the results:

1. WMK (Snake)
2. Neutroni (Marth)
3. Worm aka Setä Samuli (Mr. Game & Watch, King DeDeDe, others?)
4. bËst (IC, Diddy)
5. Jaxi (Olimar, Lucario)
5. VilNess (Sheik/Zelda, Fox)
7. zÄp (Wario, Ganondorf, Zelda, others?)
7. Laatikko (Lucario, Toon Link)

13 different chars in top 8 and not a single Meta Knight.

Smasher89 said:

Bëst- Try to get some more speed with your IC´s, doesnt mean just WD back and forth, but also just WD in place for getting more unpredictable (seen one match).


Any Brawl results? (players and chars. I see the melee brackets but...)

Click to expand...

Don't you dare to say you think that was the best I can pull off from my IC:s :D. Well honestly I've done better, but this time I did this well, no johns about it. You may get real touch about my IC's only taking with me few matches ;P.

Neutroni is just suprisingly good nowdays and my tournament motivation varies from bad to low so putting these two thing (and the lack of practising also) together gives that kind of results.

Maybe next time, even thought I'm looking forward of some of the new smashgeneration players here in Finland cames, so I can teach all I know to him, and takes my IC-crown to itself so I can retire knowing my legacy is still living . (ouh.. that sounded soooo nostalgig )

Smasher89 said:

Bëst- Try to get some more speed with your IC´s, doesnt mean just WD back and forth, but also just WD in place for getting more unpredictable (seen one match).

Click to expand...

WD'ing in place kinda defeats the purpose of wd'ing altogether, unless your opponent is very reactive and reacts to the sound alone lol.

Anyways, team finals added, more to come later. :3

Samochan said:

WD'ing in place kinda defeats the purpose of wd'ing altogether, unless your opponent is very reactive and reacts to the sound alone lol.

Click to expand...

-shakes head-

NeighborhoodP said:

-shakes head-

Click to expand...

Ditto that. Care to explain me how wd'ing in place is useful then, o high and mighty neighborhood? >_> It doesn't reposition you nor you can bait your opponents unless they react to the sound only, so it's an unneccesary action that only keeps your fingers busy while you could be doing the more neccesary button presses instead. <_<

So stop posting if you don't have any legimate reasons to post, spamming does not count as such.

ever heard of spacing?

plus, a LOT of players will throw out moves if you pressure them. run to them, wd in place, wait. if they throw out a move they get *****. etc.

it's also optimal for tech chasing -- you run to them, you wd in place right outside getup attack range, and whatever they do you're in position to ****.

lots of uses for wd in place, it's quite underrated

NeighborhoodP said:

ever heard of spacing?

plus, a LOT of players will throw out moves if you pressure them. run to them, wd in place, wait. if they throw out a move they get *****. etc.

it's also optimal for tech chasing -- you run to them, you wd in place right outside getup attack range, and whatever they do you're in position to ****.

lots of uses for wd in place, it's quite underrated

Click to expand...

...

Ever heard of crouch canceling or shielding to stop your run? <_<

WD'ing in place isn't spacing, you wd down so you stay in the same exact place you started. Spacing is, you know, (or do you know?) when one spaces oneself to the desired distance from opponent for various purposes, but I don't see how wd'ing in place equates as spacing seeing as you don't move one bit with a move designed to move in or out of range. <_< It also takes a moment before you can actually do something out of wavedash unlike crouch canceling where you can cc stuff as well and shield is just shielding, so wd'ing in place serves no purpose cept lagging you more if you use it in that way.

I'm pretty sure we're just talking about wavedashing straight down out of a full run.

If you cancel your run with a crouch, you still slide ever so slightly forward (depending on your character's traction), making it less precise. You also can't crouch out of your initial dashing animation.

Shielding is obviously bad because it doesn't cover as many options; they can just roll toward you or away UNLESS you predict it and WD out of shield to punish which isn't really reliable unless you're psychic or have godly reaction time.

As P pointed out, you can also wavedash straight down to bait your opponent (make them flinch if they're shielding, lying down, et cetera), but I think it's funnier to ever-so-slowly walk toward them in those situations.

ZoSo said:

Shielding is obviously bad because it doesn't cover as many options; they can just roll toward you or away UNLESS you predict it and WD out of shield to punish which isn't really reliable unless you're psychic or have godly reaction time.

Click to expand...

<_<

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hroa5GXFt2A 2:14

And you really don't need to be a psychic to do that, just study your opponent habits and then apply some quick reaction there and there. And some chars do have longer and faster wd than peach too, lol.

Shielding is safe though, but usually I only use it when I expect an wakeup attack. And shield to grab pwns sidestep spammers.

And the sliding forward from crouch depends of the traction of your character. High traction means good cc from run (like peach) and low means more sliding. But less laggy nevertheless.

Hahahaha, I don't know why you're being so condescending and arrogant when this is a pretty black and white issue. Yes, there are legitimate good reasons to wavedash in place. Yes, it is valid advice to give someone. No, you don't have a counter response for it because there isn't one. Use it and better your game a little. Repeatedly fighting with us about it just makes you look like a huge noob.

Oh, and big LMAO at shielding being safe.

Samochan said:

<_<

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hroa5GXFt2A 2:14

And you really don't need to be a psychic to do that, just study your opponent habits and then apply some quick reaction there and there. And some chars do have longer and faster wd than peach too, lol.

Click to expand...

Congrats, bro. I didn't say it doesn't work (I've done it many times), but covering options is better than "studying your opponent's habits" otherwise known as "guessing" (educated guess is still a guess). Hey, what happens if your opponent catches onto your habit of studying their habits?

Samochan said:

And shield to grab pwns sidestep spammers.

Click to expand...

Welcome to 2003.

NeighborhoodP said:

Hahahaha, I don't know why you're being so condescending and arrogant when this is a pretty black and white issue. Yes, there are legitimate good reasons to wavedash in place. Yes, it is valid advice to give someone. No, you don't have a counter response for it because there isn't one. Use it and better your game a little. Repeatedly fighting with us about it just makes you look like a huge noob.

Oh, and big LMAO at shielding being safe.

Click to expand...

Look who's talking, you're the one who originally came into this topic downgrading our performance. >_>

I might've been wrong about wd'ign in place not being useful to low traction characters like ic, now that I thought about it and zoso reminding me of sliding in crouch, but as a peach main myself I wouldn't gain any real advantage in wd'ing place instead of crouching with such high traction char.

And shielding is quite safe imo, since it protects you from lotsa stuff and is only beaten by grabs, shieldbreak(ers) and shieldstabs, and you can do lot of stuff from shield as well very quickly, not forgetting powershielding. Nothing is foolproof, but shielding when you expect an attack does cover for the majority of the possible attacking options and in that case would be the safest option for the player to do.

Inability to crouch out of the initial dash hurts too.

You can also get the CCing effects of crouching if you just hold down after completing the WD.

Whatever, I'm not going to commit anymore brainpower to this discussion. <_<

Shielding is what good players want you to do because you have very limited options from that point on and can be manipulated.

I'd say a snide one-liner about how because you're in Europe, you wouldn't know about that, but some mod is gonna get offended and give me an infraction =/

NeighborhoodP said:

Hahahaha, I don't know why you're being so condescending and arrogant when this is a pretty black and white issue. Yes, there are legitimate good reasons to wavedash in place. Yes, it is valid advice to give someone. No, you don't have a counter response for it because there isn't one. Use it and better your game a little. Repeatedly fighting with us about it just makes you look like a huge noob.

Oh, and big LMAO at shielding being safe.

Click to expand...

Both ways work fine. With a slower character like Peach I can understand the wavedash down not being that affective. But it is effective with other characters. I don't get how you wouldn't see it as a spacing tool Samo, running and wavedash down = instant stop without using shield (you still slide in shield anyway). Even if it wouldn't work that effectively with Peach you should be able to see how that helps other characters. Like if your someone like Falcon or Fox with all the mad dashing around and wavelandasing in general. Using waveadashing as a stopping tool is just another thing you can add to vary your approaches.


As for the Shield over wavedash down, meh, it's situational. Especically for a slower character like Peach. Being that wavedashing is already not as useful for Peach as other characters is shouldn't be surprising. Ideally you wouldn't want to be in shield (unless you know for a fact they will get-up attack) as it means you have to oos your techchase. So simple things like if they roll behind you if your shielding you can't just turn around and grab.

Edit: One little thing I want to point out. You say that shielding ***** spotdodgers. If you think they are going to spotdodge, why are you shielding in the first place? I guess using Shield to stop there is one way to keep yourself spaced for the grab, but you could also walk, float cancel to grab, etc.

I love how in every post P makes he just reconfirms that he's a gay little troll that has nothing better to do then troll every thread that mentions european smashers and/or flame m2k while sucking drephens **** (in threads that don't mention european smashers)

we know already, there's no point in reminding us over and over


BTW-Guys, remember that Samochan plays peach, wd:ing straight down with her isn't very useful since her low traction makes dash canceling the dash much better.

And about the shield thing... are you guys forgetting that you have more options out of shield then you do out of, you know, lag? >.> Like lag that you get from WD:ing down? If you WD you lag for atleast 10 frames where you cant do anything (not including jump animation frames, peach has a slow jump btw). but out of a shield you can WD, grab, jc into something etc after 1 frame if you want. Yhea, stopping your momentum with a shield and having to wait AN ENTIRE FRAME before you can do your next move is risky business >.> (as opposed to the 14-19 frames of lag you get from wd:ing down, including jump animation frames)

Sure, you cant dash out of a shield instantly. But let's say you want to dash, stop and then move backwards. What takes the longest time and leaves you the most vulnerable out of these two options:
Dashing, wding down (lagging for atleast 14-19 frames, assuming perfect WD timing) and dashing back (it takes 1 frame to turn around if you smash the control stick hard enough [otherwise it takes 6 frames]).
You can start moving back as soon as frame 15-20, depending on how fast your chars WD is
or
Dashing, shielding (lagging for atleast 1 frame), WDing back (startup time of 4-9 frames depending on char, assuming perfect wd timing)
You can start moving back as soon as frame 5-10, depending on how fast your chars WD is

****, WD's even lag more then shielddrops for most chars (chars with jumps slower then 4 frames generally, but shielddrop animations amount of frames vary slightly aswell), so even if you want to do something like dash forward, stop and jab using the shield to stop would be better then WDing down (for most chars like i said, including peach). Obviously WDing forward slightly and jabbing would be the best option here, though.
Oh, and the chars that it does take longer to drop your shield with rather then WDing down gain 1 FRAME (except samus who gains 2 frames), that's alot. -.-


I'm not saying WDing down is bad, I'm just saying it isn't superior to what samochan does instead in any way (like i just proved with frame data) like some of you are claiming that it is

WD:ing straight down is useful if you want to stop your momentum, like if you're sliding all over the place like ic's or luigi do. But for example with sheik it's almost useless since her short initial dash makes it possible for her to just dash cancel everything instead. WDing down to stop with her will just leave you in unnecessary (punishable) lag. Unless, off course your opponent somehow reacts to the (sound) of the WD, like samochan pointed out.

I love how you all act superior to samochan (saying that his ways of stopping a dash is inferior and "2003") without really knowing what you're talking about. Get your facts straight before you make an argument.

-_-

The ONLY point anybody has been trying to make is that this statement

Samochan said:

WD'ing in place kinda defeats the purpose of wd'ing altogether, unless your opponent is very reactive and reacts to the sound alone lol.

Click to expand...

is inaccurate. Does anybody care to dispute that?

And no, it most certainly does NOT take 14-19 frames to wavedash. Peach only lags for 10 frames if landing during the free fall animation which occurs AFTER her air dodge is completed. Otherwise she lags for 4 frames like most characters. Her jump is airborne on frame 6, so we're looking at maybe 11-12 frames of lag at the maximum. Also, you're forgetting that if you have to wavedash back out of your shield to punish an opponent who rolls behind you, you incur all the same lag, rendering this entire discussion pointless and ********.

EDIT: Also, I'm definitely positive I said shielding when you predict a spot dodge is "2003" because it is. Anyway, his point about "pwning sidestep spammers" is completely irrelevant within the confines of this debate.

Honestly, if I thought I could get the response P does, I'd probably troll too.

14-19 frames are including jump animation frames (the entire WD takes 14-19 frames). learn2read
Lag from landing from an airdodge after the airdodge is complete and airdodging straight into the ground (wavedashing/wavelanding) into the ground is the same (10 frames). Go test with AR or ask someone with AR if you don't beleive me. (4 frames is the amount of lag that most chars have after landing normally after doing nothing btw, or when an attack auto canceled)

My point about shielding was that you more options then out of WD lag (shielding is safer then WDing down). If you for example would run up to your opponent and shield and he would shield (expecting a melee attack) you'd be able to reactively grab him (before he does, if you react fast enough). But if you would've WD'd straight down as he shielded instead, he would be able to (reactively) grab you while you're still in WD lag.
Or if he would've reactively done a high priority attack you would've shielded that attack if you shielded, if you WD straight down you would've gotten hit in the lag.

Samochan's statement can't be denounced as innaccurate if you're playing peach or any other character that doesn't slide around alot. Sure, there are uses for characters that don't slide around alot, but they're all very situational and can (almost) always be done in a more efficent way. (I can't think of a single situation where it'd be the fastest/best option)
Again, not saying WD down is BAD, btw. I sometimes dash->straight WD down for precise placement b/c my WD isn't that precise. If you prefer that rather then doing a precise WD then by all means do that, but it certainly doesn't suddenly make straight WD down extremly useful (since making a precise WD is better to begin with)

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

14-19 frames are including jump animation frames (the entire WD takes 14-19 frames). learn2read

Click to expand...

I was including jump animation.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

Lag from landing from an airdodge after the airdodge is complete and airdodging straight into the ground (wavedashing/wavelanding) into the ground is the same (10 frames). Go test with AR or ask someone with AR if you don't beleive me. (4 frames is the amount of lag that most chars have after landing normally after doing nothing btw, or when an attack auto canceled)

Click to expand...

I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure you're right now that I think about it, so... conceded. However, that doesn't change the fact that you have to wavedash out of your shield to chase them if they roll behind you or away, so it's the same amount of lag in either situation. Again, we're talking about covering options against an opponent who is either lying down or teching. Approaching with shield is a different story altogether.

EDIT: It seems like you aren't even totally sure what we're talking about. Maybe you should "get your facts straight." LOL HOLY **** IM AWESOME

He didn't say, "It's pointless if you're using Peach."

Samochan said:

WD'ing in place kinda defeats the purpose of wd'ing altogether, unless your opponent is very reactive and reacts to the sound alone lol.

Click to expand...

THIS STATEMENT is inaccurate. Even Samo acknowledged that. If you're just trying to get me to say that crouching is more efficient for high traction characters like Peach... Sure.

I'm pretty sure this discussion only went as far as it did because people don't want P to ever have a legitimate point in any situation, so they'll argue incessantly with him about almost anything.

I wash my hands of this.

If you're approaching someone who's lying down after having missed a tech, shielding and preparing to WD oos covers both the option of rolling and doing a get-up attack. If we're talking abot teching, shielding and wd:ing will be atleast 1 frame slower then just WD'ing (just shielding and letting go of shield will be faster then wding down with most chars btw, like i pointed out in the last post) but w/e >.>

If you look closely at my post, you'll see that I stated that I don't think that WDing down is useless.
What I reacted to was people jumping all over Samo trying to downplay him (saying that he doesnt know what he's talking about b/c he's from europe and uses strats from 2003 today and other pointless insulting crap) b/c he said that WD:ing down isn't very useful. Which is really ********, so I pointed out that it isn't useful in most situations. especially not with peach: so it's understandable that he said that and saying that isn't as unreasonable/stupid as people where trying to make it out to be (at all).

I didn't argue because I don't want P to be right about anything (i dont care about that), but b/c people where jumping all over samo for no good reason (while also being incorrect, which was amusing)

Let's leave this now so we don't destroy this thread. Sorry for arguing at all samo, i hope we can just talk about the vids instead now. Zoso if you want something clarified or whatever sending me a PM would be better then posting here. And everyone, do everyone a favor and don't respond to P (he's just flamebaiting)