Aether gets gimped

san. · Nov 17, 2008

(If the Ike boards already had a discussion on this, link please =))

Even it's Ike's only relatively "safe" recovery move, many different opponents can hit Ike out of it. I inquire to find out ways to get aether gimped less frequently.

Characters with disjointed hitboxes can hit Ike at the top of his aether. A ganondorf's fair also hit me once there (was not expecting it). Some projectiles can but I'm unsure which ones and the ease of hitting Ike. (I'll need to check this, first)

For characters without large range/priority and disjointed hitboxes, how easily are they able to hit Ike out of his aether? It's hard for me to test something like this but I could try...
Aether can also be deflected, but deflections wouldn't work if you reversed aether, I think. Same thing for counter (and if it hit the counter, it would attack the other way)

Also, this situation seems to be a problem. I don't know if it's because I faced a noob Ike or whatever. When I face an Ike and knock him off stage, I jump off and attack him, but he dodges, then he goes for aether and I proceed to back air him when he's going up, resulting in a stage spike. Is there much Ike can do, or is the spacing situational to the position of the opponent?

tl;dr version: Which attacks gimp aether and how NOT to get gimped by them?

TrikELotus · Nov 17, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pw7SlUQxRA
1:50

san. · Nov 17, 2008

Saw that video a while ago, and that's part of what I mean. If I was that Ike, I would've tried to aether higher. Even though I probably would've been hit by a back air, It would probably be high enough for me to come back if I was lucky.

Whenever I play Ike dittos, when the Ike is off the edge, it's basically a stock gone. I think this is a pretty serious flaw Ike has that we at least need to try to alleviate a little bit.

Sharky · Nov 17, 2008

LMAO that was hilarious XD

I've f-smashed Ike out of Aether before with R.O.B. Spacing has to be pretty **** precise, though.

Royta · Nov 17, 2008

From what I know lots of characters can do this, wouldn't be surprised if snake could pull it off with some of his insane tilts, other ike's with down-angled Ftilts etc. but I do know that Zero Suit can easily hit you out of aether with her ->B .. hurts like hell ;p

And of course every counter move in the game (except for ike's o_O) can kill your recovery easily if you don't use the reversed version =[

This makes me a sad panda

HeroMystic · Nov 17, 2008

Ike's counter works as well.

Ike's recovery is quite gimpable no matter what. It's one of the worsts.

YagamiLight · Nov 17, 2008

It's really a question of low you go. Today I was doing some Aether nonsense against a Bowser at 100% or so near the edge and I end up getting Bowser Fsmashed through my Aether. Pain.

HeroMystic said:
Ike's counter works as well.

Ike's recovery is quite gimpable no matter what. It's one of the worsts.

It's definitely not one of the worst recoveries. It's not good, but I can name several recoveries that are worse. Only problem with it is that you are either going up or to the side, not much in between.

HeroMystic · Nov 17, 2008

Now I never said it was the worst, but it's definitely ranked as a bad recovery. A recovery where you're forced to choose between either vertical or horizontal with such predictable approaches to it will always be viewed as bad.

The recoveries that are worse than Ike's are the ones that lacks both the horizontal and vertical distance (Link, Ganondorf, Olimar, Wolf),and we're borderline with Falco.

In a game where pretty much every character can come back from anything, it's ridiculous that Ike is forced to use such shoddy methods of recovery.

YagamiLight · Nov 17, 2008

HeroMystic said:
Now I never said it was the worst, but it's definitely ranked as a bad recovery. A recovery where you're forced to choose between either vertical or horizontal with such predictable approaches to it will always be viewed as bad.

The recoveries that are worse than Ike's are the ones that lacks both the horizontal and vertical distance (Link, Ganondorf, Olimar, Wolf),and we're borderline with Falco.

In a game where pretty much every character can come back from anything, it's ridiculous that Ike is forced to use such shoddy methods of recovery.

In assessing a character's recovery in general, you have to look at several things.

- Weight
- Fall Speed
- Midair Jump Height
- Actual Recovery Distance
- Safeness of said recovery
- Options

On these counts, I'd go as far to say that Ike's recovery as a whole is decent.

- His weight is high, allowing him to not actually have to recover until far later into the match.

-His fall speed is average, so it neither helps nor disrupts his return to the edge.

- His midair jump height is pretty bad, but I'm not exactly sure where it ranks. Probably the bottom half of the cast.

- Aether and Quick Draw both go quite some ways, but pretty much in one direction. Aether can recover at some distance, so that's not terrible.

- Aether is quite a safe recovery, though it's not impenetrable. The sword barrier and SA frames both go a long way in aiding Ike up to the top. Quick Draw is pretty bad, but it at least contains a hit to potentially disrupt them if they try to edgehog.

- Ike has two ways to recovery, so it's not extremely predictable if you know when to mix it up.

HeroMystic · Nov 17, 2008

YagamiLight said:
In assessing a character's recovery in general, you have to look at several things.

- Weight
- Fall Speed
- Midair Jump Height
- Actual Recovery Distance
- Safeness of said recovery
- Options

On these counts, I'd go as far to say that Ike's recovery as a whole is decent.

Weight is specific and you're overestimating it a bit. The more weight you have means the more you're able to be combo'd. Ike's not the heaviest in the game sure, but damage can get easily racked on him and he doesn't exactly have any abilities (like a much desired dancing blade or a sex kick...) to stop himself from being combo'd. This is bad when he's almost always forced to approach his opponent.

I'll go ahead and agree with fall speed. Also agreed with jump height.

Here's the thing about recovery distance: I'd rather have a recovery that accomplishes both vertical and horizontal distance than a recovery that forces you to choose. Now, this wouldn't be so bad, if his recovery was actually safe... which puts me to my next point.

Ike's recovery is not safe. All he has is Ragnell (that somehow can no longer shoot out waves of energy. ._.; ) and air dodge. Otherwise, he's vulnerable to projectiles, edgehogging, edgeguarding, and WOPs. It wouldn't be so bad if QD wasn't so ******** and Aether had more horizontal movement, but they don't. Our recovery is easily open to be manipulated, and with counter our only option to use as a stall, it's not difficult to gimp Ike.

I pretty much addressed the options point in the previous paragraph.

TechnoMonster · Nov 17, 2008

Most characters can spotdodge -> tilt it to death.

Royta · Nov 17, 2008

HeroMystic said:
Ike's counter works as well.

Ike's recovery is quite gimpable no matter what. It's one of the worsts.

Strange, I tried it a couple of times but never hit him, since he already got to the legde...oh well probably my crappy timing;p

Kinzer · Nov 17, 2008

TrikELotus said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pw7SlUQxRA
1:50

I hate that video so much...it feels too set up...

Anyway everything else in this thread so far is right.

YagamiLight · Nov 17, 2008

HeroMystic said:
Weight is specific and you're overestimating it a bit. The more weight you have means the more you're able to be combo'd. Ike's not the heaviest in the game sure, but damage can get easily racked on him and he doesn't exactly have any abilities (like a much desired dancing blade or a sex kick...) to stop himself from being combo'd. This is bad when he's almost always forced to approach his opponent.

I'll go ahead and agree with fall speed. Also agreed with jump height.

Here's the thing about recovery distance: I'd rather have a recovery that accomplishes both vertical and horizontal distance than a recovery that forces you to choose. Now, this wouldn't be so bad, if his recovery was actually safe... which puts me to my next point.

Ike's recovery is not safe. All he has is Ragnell (that somehow can no longer shoot out waves of energy. ._.; ) and air dodge. Otherwise, he's vulnerable to projectiles, edgehogging, edgeguarding, and WOPs. It wouldn't be so bad if QD wasn't so ******** and Aether had more horizontal movement, but they don't. Our recovery is easily open to be manipulated, and with counter our only option to use as a stall, it's not difficult to gimp Ike.

I pretty much addressed the options point in the previous paragraph.

Weight means you'll be comboed by some characters, but at the end of the day his average fall speed and small (For a person of his weight) horizontal frame do help him out. And even with some low percent combos, I'd still prefer the weight.

Aether nabs some horizontal movement, not a ton, but it does. If you focus your efforts on good DI and preserving the midair jump, you won't feel the need to have more horizontal recovery. Actually, let me compare Ike's Aether to DK's Congo Hula Hoop Whatchamacalllit. They are similar except they go in completely different directions. However, Ike's is very good for meteor cancelling and is also a good way to deter opponents from spiking you again. DK's...sort of is asking for a spike.

The recovery process itself is fairly dangerous, but Aether itself is about as safe a recovery move as you'd want without being ******** ( By ******** I mean stuff like ROB. " Whoo, 5 seconds of flight *****!"). It sends up a projectile to aid you from getting spiked and they can take advantage of you by going past you and hitting you thanks to SAF at the start.

Is Aether good? Yes, I'd say so. Is Ike's recovery good? I most certainly would not say so. But, as with all Ike things, it takes more precision than it looks and done right you shouldn't be getting gimped much.

Kinzer · Nov 17, 2008

We need to find more uses for Aether outside of recovery.

HeroMystic · Nov 17, 2008

YagamiLight said:
Weight means you'll be comboed by some characters, but at the end of the day his average fall speed and small (For a person of his weight) horizontal frame do help him out. And even with some low percent combos, I'd still prefer the weight.

I guess I would too if I didn't have to fight a Marth/Falco/Olimar player every other day...

YagamiLight said:
Aether nabs some horizontal movement, not a ton, but it does. If you focus your efforts on good DI and preserving the midair jump, you won't feel the need to have more horizontal recovery. Actually, let me compare Ike's Aether to DK's Congo Hula Hoop Whatchamacalllit. They are similar except they go in completely different directions. However, Ike's is very good for meteor cancelling and is also a good way to deter opponents from spiking you again. DK's...sort of is asking for a spike.

The recovery process itself is fairly dangerous, but Aether itself is about as safe a recovery move as you'd want without being ******** ( By ******** I mean stuff like ROB. " Whoo, 5 seconds of flight *****!"). It sends up a projectile to aid you from getting spiked and they can take advantage of you by going past you and hitting you thanks to SAF at the start.

Is Aether good? Yes, I'd say so. Is Ike's recovery good? I most certainly would not say so. But, as with all Ike things, it takes more precision than it looks and done right you shouldn't be getting gimped much.

I'd like to have more horizontal recovery simply for the sake of not being so freaken predictable. When you're recovering with Ike, the opponent knows EXACTLY what you're going to do. You may switch up the process from time to time, but at the end of the day you only have two choices: QD or Aether. They may not expect a QD from time to time (but the animation is so obvious they won't have to expect it), but they -do- expect an Aether, and they know exactly how to gimp it.

I will admit however, that Aether has to be one of the best "vertical only" recoveries in the game, as it is pretty hard to gimp even if you do expect it.

Kinzer said:
We need to find more uses for Aether outside of recovery.

D-throw > Aether is okay at low percents, but you can also use it as an anti-air approach move, and you can use it to attack through platforms. What stops Aether from being uses on-stage is the bad ending lag that makes you eat an F-Smash.

Quite sad seeing as how it's our most damaging move.

metroid1117 · Nov 17, 2008

@OP: Aether is hard to gimp for characters without *large* hitboxes. The reason why I say "large" and not "disjointed" is because, technically, all hitboxes are disjointed; that is, they surround your character's hurtbox to a certain extent. Disjointed hitboxes are usually associated with swords and other weapons because the hurtbox is so far from the hitbox. While Ike's sword surrounds him during the rising portion of Aether, the hitbox is comparatively small - small enough for large hitboxes (like Lucario's FSmash or, as you said, Ganondorf's FAir) to go through the hitbox set up by Ragnell and connect with Ike's hurtbox while keeping the attacker's hurtbox out of range of Ragnell's hitbox. Priority is also a factor; some attacks can just go through Aether, like DK's FSmash or FTilt.

Basically, if the attack in question has a big enough hitbox to go through the hitbox set up by Aether, it can hit Ike.

To deter opponents who do this, try Aethering slightly under the stage so that the sword pierces through the level and hits them (this only works on Battlefield and Smashville). If you can't, then SDI the hit so that you're close enough to either QD (risky, but it works sometimes) or Aether again.

You can also gimp Aether by hitting Ike in the back when he jumps up to grab his sword; this form of gimping is harder to deter. You can either try to tech the stagespike or turn around during Aether so that you hopefully hit them on the way up and reverse edgeguard them. If you know you're going to get gimped, then Aetherciding works fine as well.

YagamiLight · Nov 18, 2008

HeroMystic said:
I guess I would too if I didn't have to fight a Marth/Falco/Olimar player every other day...

My most common fights now are D3/DK/MK/Pit offline. I feel your pain about Olimar, of course.

HeroMystic said:
I'd like to have more horizontal recovery simply for the sake of not being so freaken predictable. When you're recovering with Ike, the opponent knows EXACTLY what you're going to do. You may switch up the process from time to time, but at the end of the day you only have two choices: QD or Aether. They may not expect a QD from time to time (but the animation is so obvious they won't have to expect it), but they -do- expect an Aether, and they know exactly how to gimp it.

I will admit however, that Aether has to be one of the best "vertical only" recoveries in the game, as it is pretty hard to gimp even if you do expect it.

The way I see it, recovering with Ike involves one of four things:

- Using the midair jump to reach the ledge, will only really be useful at late double digits and early hundreds
- Using QD to snap to the edge fast, charging it is asking to be *****
- Aether facing forward
- Aether reversed to avoid some Bairs and gimps by certain characters

Not too shoddy.

zealotscout · Nov 22, 2008

ikes aether is rly special , it sweets spots from a greater height when u have your back to the platform , but it has a shorter horizontal sweetspotting range , and vice versa if ur facing the edge with a regular aether , but to the gimping issue , i am gimped alot more often when im doing a regular aether , but since i do reversed aethers only when i now im too far below the edge , so its hard to get gimped , plus no body expects the length of aether when u reverse it , even i think that im a goner some times.

World of Darkness · Nov 24, 2008

What i try to do is (assuming i'm on the right side of FD and trying to recover) hold left on the control stick. I try to do this so that i land on the ground when i aether back to the stage insted of grabbing the ledge. Although i guess you can just stay outside of the hitbox, charge a forward smash, and kill him with it once aether finishes.

san. · Nov 24, 2008

I try to never recover with aether and land on the ground unless obviously the opponent is grabbing the ledge. If they're grabbing the ledge and I'm close enough, I can reverse aether and hopefully get out of that situation.

if the opponent is on the ground, I find that DIing as far into the stage as possible and going back to the ledge is the easiest way, so they get tripped up by the blade. (works best where aether can go pretty far out, like battlefield)

The priority of aether, and which characters have the easiest/hardest time gimping aether, how they gimp aether, and what to do about it could be some important issues.

MysticKenji · Nov 25, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGaGubgWA80 (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjKChZtsac (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFtciOiIoew (first stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_X2KaAOJk (...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5D5Wu7YMTE (lol)

illinialex24 · Nov 25, 2008

Jigglypuff is amazing at gimping Ike. She can punish his B-side so well off-stage but if he goes for Aether, pound goes through it and results if done well in a stage spike.

HeroMystic · Nov 25, 2008

MysticKenji said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGaGubgWA80 (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjKChZtsac (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFtciOiIoew (first stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_X2KaAOJk (...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5D5Wu7YMTE (lol)

...Forget what I said above. Aether sucks.

san. · Nov 25, 2008

The only thing that makes me feel better about that is that reverse aether should prevent a lot of those stage spikes. The only big problem is hitting out of the top of aether, IMO, because the spinning sword tells the opponent where to hit a second later

SwordmasterXXXI · Nov 25, 2008

MysticKenji said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGaGubgWA80 (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjKChZtsac (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFtciOiIoew (first stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_X2KaAOJk (...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5D5Wu7YMTE (lol)

I knw Ike's recovery was bad, but wow. lol. >_>

san. · Nov 25, 2008

The worst part about Ike's recovery is this.

MOST ATTACKS can HIT IKE if they time the attack

right after the sword comes back down and leaves a space for a split second. if someone times an aerial there, There is going to be at least a clash where both people get hurt. That's why timing and predicting what the opponent will try to do to punish the attack is a must.

Ussi · Nov 25, 2008

MysticKenji said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGaGubgWA80 (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjKChZtsac (last stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFtciOiIoew (first stock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_X2KaAOJk (...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5D5Wu7YMTE (lol)

-fetal position- I always have Pikachu....

Palpi · Nov 25, 2008

There has been a lot of rap on his horizontal recovery, but is it really this bad if his vertical is so easily gimped?

Ofcourse his horizontal is too, but it is bit quicker to the ledge, especially charged up.

san. · Nov 29, 2008

Now that I just learned how aether can recover from underneath stages so easily and snap to the ledge, I think a little higher of it now

even though it still sucks when you're pretty far offstage

MysticKenji · Nov 29, 2008

Palpi said:
There has been a lot of rap on his horizontal recovery, but is it really this bad if his vertical is so easily gimped?

Ofcourse his horizontal is too, but it is bit quicker to the ledge, especially charged up.

Except that QD can be gimped by simply jumping in its way, while Aether requires at least some planning to gimp.

CHOMPY · Nov 30, 2008

Would Ike flinch even when the sword is over the edge just before Ike grabs the sword?

Teh Brettster · Nov 30, 2008

Aether is a better move to use than QD.
Use QD only when your opponent is not expecting it and you KNOW you can get past them.
When they're edgehogging, use Aether. Your sword has a pretty good chance of hitting them. If they're edgeguarding, they have to really know how to space and time to gimp you. Just know when to use what (but stick more to Aether) and at what timing and in what place to use the one you choose. If you play your recovery smart enough and don't become predictable, you'll find yourself getting gimped less.
Of course, it'll always happen, I know. But it'll happen less.

petrie911 · Nov 30, 2008

The problem with Aether is that its Super Armor frames are far too short. It should have them pretty much from startup until the downstroke (IIRC Dedede's has this), but instead it only has them from when Ike throws the sword until he starts moving upward to grab it.

Well, that and QD should not have full stun afterwards. Seriously, there are characters that have ^B's that don't have full stun afterwards; why can't Ike have the same for his >B? Also, Luigi and Pikachu can bolster their recoveries with >B; again, why can't Ike? If QD didn't have full stun, Ike's recovery would actually work, and Ike would be a much better character.

comboking · Nov 30, 2008

Aether is easy to be egdehogged and gimped

Royta · Nov 30, 2008

petrie911 said:
The problem with Aether is that its Super Armor frames are far too short. It should have them pretty much from startup until the downstroke (IIRC Dedede's has this), but instead it only has them from when Ike throws the sword until he starts moving upward to grab it.

Well, that and QD should not have full stun afterwards. Seriously, there are characters that have ^B's that don't have full stun afterwards; why can't Ike have the same for his >B? Also, Luigi and Pikachu can bolster their recoveries with >B; again, why can't Ike? If QD didn't have full stun, Ike's recovery would actually work, and Ike would be a much better character.

This, 1000 times this. They could have decreased its range a bit perhaps, or its power...but they gave us moderate power, moderate priority and HORRIBLE recover possibilities (though as pointed out in Hero's topic, there are uses).
Still, QD could have been so much better =/

Also, imo, Aether is good as it is, if they buffed the super armour to full animation it would have become a beast of a move. Sure it has his weaknesses but we're (kinda) spike-proof thanks to the projectile (Ragnell) we throw up above us, which helps.
Not saying it WTFPWNS as a recovery, but it isn't all THAT bad.

There are worse...such as Olimar's without his pikmin :laugh:

XDonkeyKongX1029 · Nov 30, 2008

I actually hit him with Marth's front smash.

Aether gets gimped

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Apprentice

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Champion

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Champion

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Mammy

Smash Champion

Mammy

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Legacy of the Mario

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Journeyman

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Master

Sinbad: King of Sindria

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Rookie

Information

Network