Falco Testing Grounds ~

Blad01 · Nov 18, 2008

Welcome to the Falco Testing Grounds !

This thread was made because there are still a lot of things to test with Falco moveset. I can't test all these things alone, and i don't have my Wii at home for a week...
So i would like your help ! Let me know if you want to help testing, you'll be in the credits
(And then maybe you'll have an even better chance to enter the SBR ;p)

THINGS TO TEST :

Finish the Chaingrab List with walking and running Chaingrabs. (I plan to udpate the thread once you give me some results)
Examples : Can Sonic really escape with his Up B ? A walking grab could maybe prevent him from escaping ?
Finish the Chaingrab to Spike list.
Is the chainspike unescapable ? (Dthrow > Dair > FF > Grab)
Does the D-Throw > Dash Attack > Turn-Around grab is a true combo on heavies ? If it is, on which characters exactly ?
Can the Full Hop Dair combo in another move ? (unlikely)
Test on which the Laserlock works with a ledge-up attack
See if a Jab Cancel (by crouching or shielding) really exist. (Frame Data really welcome)
Could Jab x 2 (cancelled) combo into another Jab / Grab ?
Frame Data : How many frames do the hitboxes for U-Smash, FTilt, Bair, Dair (Nair), Shine last ?
What moves outpioritize Falco's Firebird ? At which moment is Falco the less vulnerable ? (Frame Data appreciated)
What is the landing lag for a grounded Firebird ? It seems that it's near no landing lag, so maybe difficult to punish.
What moves outpioritize Falco's Phantasm ?
What is this landing glitch on Falco Phantasm ? (If he gets hit and doesn't perform an aerial, he apparently has landing lag) What combos are there on Falco's Phantasm ? (I saw Marth FTilt to FSmash working...)
How does the tripping rate work on Falco's Reflector ?
Dthrow > Jab > LL Testings

If you have any other ideas, please submit them

TESTS RESULTS :

Vlade (11/19) said:
Ok I've done some testing on moves that outprioritse the phantasm. So far I've tested 2 characters - MK and GW (I did these first since they are falco's harder match-ups).

MK's moves that outprioritise falco's phantasm:

Both hits of Dsmash

Fsmash

Usmash, although you have to hit with the first hit otherwise it clashes with the phantasm and both characters end up taking damage and knockback

Last hit of ftilt

Utilt

Dtilt

Uair

Nair

Fair

Dair

Bair

Glide Attack

Shuttle Loop, both aerial and grounded

Drill Rush

Tornado

Here are the moves that GW uses that can outprioritise phantasm:

Jab

Ftilt

Utilt

Dtilt

Fsmash

Dsmash

Usmash

Full bucket (with falco's lasers in it of course)

All judgement hammers, including #1 even though it has hardly any knockback and would be capitalised upon by falco anyway

Upb from below

Bair

Dair

Nair

Fair (all hitboxes, even the weakest part of the move)

That's all I got so far. But as you can see these characters certainly have a lot of moves that can out-prioritise the phantasm.

ftl; Get-Up Attack to LaserLock said:
Ok, so I've been doing some testing with the laserlock, as initiated by the ledge-getting-up-attack. All this data so far at 0%. What I would do is do the get-up-attack and then immediately start firing lasers as soon as possible. Testing on Lvl1 CPUs (for the easy case, no evasion attempts) and lvl9 cpus (they autoairdodge, as far as I can tell).

Conclusions:

0) Laserlocks are more complex than I thought, and so I'd appreciate other people verifying some of these results, since apparently just doing a get-up-attack and mashing b isn't enough to get all the details.

1) All characters, as far as I can tell, can prevent the laserlock by hitting L/R, either to airdodge or tech.

2) Some characters, the more floaty ones, can't be laserlocked if you mash b as soon as possible. They fall slowly enough or get hit far enough that, if you do that, they won't have hit the ground at the time the first laser hits them, and it'll leave them upright. The characters that this applies to are: Kirby, MK, Olimar, Jigglypuff, Ness/Lucas. This is probably affected by DI (DI up would get more characters on this list.) Perhaps it is possible to LL these characters by waiting a bit longer before starting the lasers; on the other hand, this would require them to avoid pressing any buttons for quite a while, since by this time they can either attack or airdodge, either of which would save them.

3) Some characters fall fast enough or are flat enough that, in the course of a laserlock (or in the process of starting the laserlock), they don't bounce high enough for the laserlock to continue. Both of these cause the effect that the laserlock starts, but doesn't continue. This list includes Luigi, Zelda, Peach, Toon Link, Pikachu, and Sonic. This too is probably affected by DI (SDI away might get some characters a bit more time to fall before the next laser, DI down might speed up the fall).

4) Ice Climbers - there's f'ing two of them. Can't LL two, haven't tested single IC.

5) ZSS - I'm lazy and didn't test ZSS.

6) That leaves the list of characters that can be laserlocked off of a get-up-attack, assuming no airdodge or tech, at: Mario, Bowser, DK, Diddy, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Samus, Pit, Rob, D3, Falco, Wolf, all three pokemon, Lucario, Marth, Ike, G&W, and Snake. (Of these, it is likely that some can get out with the right DI, and all can get out with airdodges/techs.)

At some point, I'll also check in training mode whether this continues working the same way at high percent.

J4pu said:
my Dthrow > Jab > LL data
All data collected in vs mode

if they DI up and away it gives them more time to escape the Jab > landing on their back (tested with MK)

Character data (%s are seen as before you do the Dthrow, therefore due to stale move issues, they will change slightly [they actually change a lot] depending on how diminished your dthrow and maybe Jab are)

MK
Earliest Percent that Jab > landing on back: 42% <-- Dthrow is not stale at all | ~57% very stale Dthrow
Latest percent Dthrow > Jab connects regardless of DI: 76% <-- not stale | % stale
CG > Dair > grab > dthrow > Jab > LL works
CG > Jab > LL does NOT work
Best way to DI to escape the Dthrow > Jab is straight away

Wario
Earliest Percent that Jab > landing on back: 58% <-- Dthrow is not stale at all | 78% FULLY stale Dthrow
Latest percent Dthrow > Jab connects with DI away:
CG (43%) > Dair > 2 lasers > Dthrow>Jab>LL works
DI Up/towards will always allow wario to avoid Jab after ~25%

Works with any DI, or none
MK

DI away required
Wario
Marth
DDD ~75-100

DI down (and away) required
Snake

I'll update this post every so often

Credits to Testers :

Vlade : For MK's and G&W's moves that outprioritize Falco phantasm.
Ftl : For GUA to LL testings.

The Falco boards are not very active, i really hope that this thread could bring more activity.

DOn't be lazzy please.

Famous · Nov 18, 2008

Can the Full Hop Dair combo in another move ? (unlikely)

Actually, it can depending on the percentage...Dair could combo into Nair around the 60-70's

Blad01 · Nov 18, 2008

Well, i would prefer some clear and precise tests...

ftl · Nov 18, 2008

Ooh! Ooh! I'll definitely help out. I have all week off this coming week for thanksgiving break, so once I turn in a bunch of stuff on friday I can help out. I'll be able to do some laserlock testing - I think I can do that without having a human opponent, right? Since a human can prevent a laserlock in any case.

Blad, could you point me to a thread or someplace so I can read what a good way of getting frame data is? I don't know how to do that, and, again, it's something I'd have time to set up and start doing when Friday rolls around.

J4pu · Nov 18, 2008

phantasm has invincibility frames for approximately the first 1/3 of its distance (assuming no cancels are done). An opponent can attack during this time (with high enough priority attack) and cancel out the damage he would otherwise take from the phantasm but Falco will remain unharmed regardless.

What moves don't out-prioritize firebird is a better question
If you mean firebird from the air to the ground Falco bounces on the ground and remains in "freefall" until he hits the ground again (you can hit the ground and still fall off the edge to your death if angled/placed right)
if you mean from a starting position on the ground you are limiting your options to straight forward or straight backwards (which could actually be limited to 1 direction if you are close to an edge) unless you want freefall lag. It's just a BAD idea.

If the landing glitch is the same thing that some other characters have after using their UpB, it works like this: After using an UpB (phantasm?) the next time you touch the ground you will have the same amount of lag as if you had landed on the ground after using an UpB.
So, if you UpB to grab the edge and then ledge drop > DJ back onto the stage, when you land on the stage you will have ending lag equivalent to if you had just landed on the stage after using your UpB. There were some uncertainties about whether or not autocancelling an aerial before hitting the ground would take away the stored landing lag, but I don't know what the conclusions were and it was a long time ago when I read about this.

Blad01 · Nov 18, 2008

ftl said:
Ooh! Ooh! I'll definitely help out. I have all week off this coming week for thanksgiving break, so once I turn in a bunch of stuff on friday I can help out. I'll be able to do some laserlock testing - I think I can do that without having a human opponent, right? Since a human can prevent a laserlock in any case.

Yes

Anyways, CPU lvl9 will very probably air dodge before hitting the ground, and that is the best reaction to prevent a laserlock ^^

Blad, could you point me to a thread or someplace so I can read what a good way of getting frame data is? I don't know how to do that, and, again, it's something I'd have time to set up and start doing when Friday rolls around.

Well, apparently there are several ways of getting frame data, more or less precise.

You could ask to 3GOD or Kirk, they have done some frame data testing

phantasm has invincibility frames for approximately the first 1/3 of its distance (assuming no cancels are done). An opponent can attack during this time (with high enough priority attack) and cancel out the damage he would otherwise take from the phantasm but Falco will remain unharmed regardless.

Oh i see, i didn't know that.

That would be great if we could know how many frames exactly, but it's a beginning ^^

But we still have to test which moves can stop the phantasm after these invincibility frames. (At least for our Falco Dittos : Bair, FSmash, FTilt ?)

if you mean from a starting position on the ground you are limiting your options to straight forward or straight backwards (which could actually be limited to 1 direction if you are close to an edge) unless you want freefall lag. It's just a BAD idea.

Well, it's a bad idea in theory. But if you use it rarely, this is a multi-hit move, which can poke shields, and can lead to a laser-lock if they don't react (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ePtxqX6HM)

If the landing glitch is the same thing that some other characters have after using their UpB, it works like this: After using an UpB (phantasm?) the next time you touch the ground you will have the same amount of lag as if you had landed on the ground after using an UpB.
So, if you UpB to grab the edge and then ledge drop > DJ back onto the stage, when you land on the stage you will have ending lag equivalent to if you had just landed on the stage after using your UpB. There were some uncertainties about whether or not autocancelling an aerial before hitting the ground would take away the stored landing lag, but I don't know what the conclusions were and it was a long time ago when I read about this.

Ok, that's the same thing for Ganon B moves. Well, i understand now why it get lag sometimes when i ledgehop to double laser... That's really annoying.
And yes apparently, if you do a AC aerial, you get rid of the 'stored' lag.

J4pu · Nov 18, 2008

Blad01 said:
Well, it's a bad idea in theory. But if you use it rarely, this is a multi-hit move, which can poke shields, and can lead to a laser-lock if they don't react (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ePtxqX6HM)

very interesting, I occasionally throw FB into a situation where they expect phantasm, never knew to attempt a LL after

Denzi · Nov 18, 2008

Firebird can laserlock!?!?!?!

When it comes to jab canceling, I heard that there is nothing to actually cancel it, you just have to wait to get the timing right (pressing down helps time it). So (I'm pretty sure anayway) Falco doesn't have a true jab cancel like some characters, but his jab is fast enough to act like one.

XxBlackxX · Nov 18, 2008

yes it can, but it's VERY situational. anyways starting thrusday ill help ya out with these. especially all the ones related to cg's and spikes and LL.

J4pu · Nov 18, 2008

regardless of Jab cancelling or not it doesn't give enough hitstun to guarantee anything
Tested on a CPU Ganon Jab cancel > Jab cancel Ganon could get out of it
Jab comes out on frame 2 so if it can't link into another Jab it can't link into anthing, of course that doesn't make it useless since the general reaction is to shield after getting jabbed which leads to a grab opportunity and if they spotdodged your jab they are going to lose invincibility just in time for you to grab, so it's dang near undefeatable unless they know you are going to do it and Jab back at you.
I'll test again in 1/4 speed just to be sure I guess about whether or not it's escapable but I can't do any frame testing, so finding out whether or not it exists for Falco is somebody else's job.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Nov 19, 2008

Another thing you might want to add to things to test for is tripping with Falco's Reflector. I believe people perceive this to be chance, but it might be possible there is a 100% success rate method.

From my own testing, I have obtained large consecutive trips in a row on all charaters when testing on various situations. Such as shining on someone in their landing animation. I also looked at Shining someone during standing, walking, and running animations at different distances of the Reflectors path. Another is the shining on the fall of a short-hop. Again I have tried this on all characters and had success ranging from a 2-3 trips in a row all the way to consecutive tripping in a row till the % will not allow tripping to be possible. This supports the idea that it is based on chance, but there could be another reason. Certain frames of a characters movement connecting with the hitbox of the Shine might play a part in deciding tripping or not. So this is something that probably needs frame data to test out.

Vlade · Nov 19, 2008

Ok I've done some testing on moves that outprioritse the phantasm. So far I've tested 2 characters - MK and GW (I did these first since they are falco's harder match-ups).

MK's moves that outprioritise falco's phantasm:

Both hits of Dsmash
Fsmash
Usmash, although you have to hit with the first hit otherwise it clashes with the phantasm and both characters end up taking damage and knockback
Last hit of ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Uair
Nair
Fair
Dair
Bair
Glide Attack
Shuttle Loop, both aerial and grounded
Drill Rush
Tornado

Here are the moves that GW uses that can outprioritise phantasm:

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Dsmash
Usmash
Full bucket (with falco's lasers in it of course)
All judgement hammers, including #1 even though it has hardly any knockback and would be capitalised upon by falco anyway
Upb from below
Bair
Dair
Nair
Fair (all hitboxes, even the weakest part of the move)

That's all I got so far. But as you can see these characters certainly have a lot of moves that can out-prioritise the phantasm.

J4pu · Nov 19, 2008

Vlade said:
There were other moves which I thought would be too difficult to test, and would not be worth using to outprioritise phantasm. These moves were uair and usmash.

Anyway here are the moves that GW uses that can outprioritise phantasm:

[

????????
Upsmash too difficult to test and not worth using? Are we thinking of the same MK?
MK could be dashing to the edge to edge-hog phantasm and then Falco decides to phantasm onto the stage to avoid being gimped, MK's Upsmash comes out fast, has multiple hits so timing isn't difficult and can be done out of a dash.

Vlade · Nov 19, 2008

Alright Alright I'll test it for you then, but personally I think there are other moves that will always be a better option.

Edit: Usmash does outprioritise phantasm as well as uair - I've added these to the list

Also I'd like to add that I also tested out whether or not sonic can escape out of the chaingrab with upb. I found that if you do a running grab sonic can escape straight after the first throw. But with walking chaingrab he cannot escape until 43% with the upb as long as you do it perfectly.

StarHawk_30 · Nov 19, 2008

Fire bird can lock, but it's very unlikely because attack that make opponents fall on their back will knock them too far away for the lock to happen, because they can easily escape or doge the fire bird.

Blad01 · Nov 19, 2008

Vlade > Thanks a lot

Our first test results

I would be curious to see the tests results for the other characters though (Snake, DDD, Marth for high tiers, but also Ganon, Capt Falcon in the low tier ^^).

Crystal > It's added, thanks.

J4pu > Well, apparently yes there is nothing that can combo with Jab... But i'm a lot less sure about Jabx2 into another Jab / Grab. I'm gonna add this to the first post.

Teran · Nov 20, 2008

Your chaingrab list doesn't seem to have data on ZSS. One of my friends is a ZSS main, and has shown me that she can escape the chaingrab reliably at ~30% with her down B. If the ZSS player for some reason doesn't do that, then she can be chaingrabbed to 45%.

J4pu · Nov 20, 2008

I have an update to your CG list that is like from back in May
Samus can be walking CG'ed a total of 2 times (I don't know what % but even if you jab once before the 2 Dthrows they both still work) (aka grab dthrow grab dthrow grab > whatever) after the 2nd one she bounces too high and can get out by almost any means (UpB DJ Nair, you name it) but is still susceptible to the SH Dair pseudo CG until ~40% (about the same time the Dair knocks her down anyways)
Note: Samus has a slow Dsmash so the attempt at a well-timed Dair pseudo CG is only punishable by a turn-around Jab (and maybe Ftilt)

When I talk about the Dair pseudo CG I assume landing behind and turn around regrab.

I assume you want info for that thread since it is listed in the OP

ftl · Nov 23, 2008

Ok, so I've been doing some testing with the laserlock, as initiated by the ledge-getting-up-attack. All this data so far at 0%. What I would do is do the get-up-attack and then immediately start firing lasers as soon as possible. Testing on Lvl1 CPUs (for the easy case, no evasion attempts) and lvl9 cpus (they autoairdodge, as far as I can tell).

Conclusions:

0) Laserlocks are more complex than I thought, and so I'd appreciate other people verifying some of these results, since apparently just doing a get-up-attack and mashing b isn't enough to get all the details.

1) All characters, as far as I can tell, can prevent the laserlock by hitting L/R, either to airdodge or tech.

2) Some characters, the more floaty ones, can't be laserlocked if you mash b as soon as possible. They fall slowly enough or get hit far enough that, if you do that, they won't have hit the ground at the time the first laser hits them, and it'll leave them upright. The characters that this applies to are: Kirby, MK, Olimar, Jigglypuff, Ness/Lucas. This is probably affected by DI (DI up would get more characters on this list.) Perhaps it is possible to LL these characters by waiting a bit longer before starting the lasers; on the other hand, this would require them to avoid pressing any buttons for quite a while, since by this time they can either attack or airdodge, either of which would save them.

3) Some characters fall fast enough or are flat enough that, in the course of a laserlock (or in the process of starting the laserlock), they don't bounce high enough for the laserlock to continue. Both of these cause the effect that the laserlock starts, but doesn't continue. This list includes Luigi, Zelda, Peach, Toon Link, Pikachu, and Sonic. This too is probably affected by DI (SDI away might get some characters a bit more time to fall before the next laser, DI down might speed up the fall).

4) Ice Climbers - there's f'ing two of them. Can't LL two, haven't tested single IC.

5) ZSS - I'm lazy and didn't test ZSS.

6) That leaves the list of characters that can be laserlocked off of a get-up-attack, assuming no airdodge or tech, at: Mario, Bowser, DK, Diddy, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Samus, Pit, Rob, D3, Falco, Wolf, all three pokemon, Lucario, Marth, Ike, G&W, and Snake. (Of these, it is likely that some can get out with the right DI, and all can get out with airdodges/techs.)

At some point, I'll also check in training mode whether this continues working the same way at high percent.

Tommy_G · Nov 24, 2008

Weak up air hit is a tail whip hit box(Falco hits them with his tail.)

Blad01 · Nov 26, 2008

Thanks ftl for your testings :D

Any more testings ?

J4pu · Nov 30, 2008

bumped because bottom of page 1 isn't good enough

post #999

pure_awesome · Dec 2, 2008

SK92 said:
basically when you get spiked you smash di towards the stage and press L right when you get spiked and you don't take the ground on the stage, you tech the edge of the stage where you would edgeguard your opponent. Meaning you wall jump the edge of the stage which prevents you from being spiked.

I live in the Northwest Territories, six hours away from anyone who plays anything somewhat close to high level smash. The only other person in this town that I know of who plays Smash thinks that DK is the best character because you can do his DownB and you can't get hit. Also, he's nine.

But this definitely seems like something that should be tested. Also, Blad told me to post here, so I'm doing it, out of fear that he'll take my bread.

From the extremely limited testing I've been able to do using my feet, a second controller, and fifteen minutes of pure patience, it sure seems feasible. I was never able to tech a chainspike, but I was able to DI pretty **** close to the wall. If I had a second pair of hands, it sure seems like it would be possible.

So yeah. There ya go, Blad.

Mith_ · Dec 2, 2008

# Does the D-Throw > Dash Attack > Turn-Around grab is a true combo on heavies ? If it is, on which characters exactly ?
# Can the Full Hop Dair combo in another move ? (unlikely)
# See if a Jab Cancel (by crouching or shielding) really exist. (Frame Data really welcome)
# Could Jab x 2 (cancelled) combo into another Jab / Grab ?
# What is the landing lag for a grounded Firebird ? It seems that it's near no landing lag, so maybe difficult to punish.
# What moves outprioritize Falco's Phantasm ?
# What is this landing glitch on Falco Phantasm ? (If he gets hit and doesn't perform an aerial, he apparently has landing lag) What combos are there on Falco's Phantasm ? (I saw Marth FTilt to FSmash working...)

I'll try to test this stuff soon.

Vlade · Dec 3, 2008

Sonic cannot escape the CG with his UpB if you do the walking chaingrab perfectly. He can't get out until 43% (with UpB, although he might be able to break out with other means).

Blad01 · Dec 7, 2008

pure_awesome said:
But this definitely seems like something that should be tested.

Yes, definitly.

Personnally, i can't pull it off, so a test of this would be welcome ^^

Mithx > Ok, thanks a lot

We also need to know what can we do in a Falco ditto to outprioritize the Phantasm ? FTilt, FSmash, USmash, Bair, Dair, Blaster, Shine maybe come to my mind, but that would be better to test it

Blad01 · Dec 14, 2008

So... No results ? o_o

§witch · Dec 14, 2008

I'll try the chain spike tech some point this week, when I get get my friend to test it with me.

XxBlackxX · Dec 14, 2008

Blad01 said:
So... No results ? o_o

uh..yeah...sorry guys.
but i've been away from the wii for the last two weeks and during this week i spent most of my time practicing shiek and playing friendlies with my friend....

well, so on a priority list, which thing do we want to know first? because i might get to doing that sometime next week.

Denzi · Dec 14, 2008

Blad01 said:
We also need to know what can we do in a Falco ditto to outprioritize the Phantasm ? FTilt, FSmash, USmash, Bair, Dair, Blaster, Shine maybe come to my mind, but that would be better to test it

I'm just going off what (I think) I remember, but Bair and Dair hit out of the 2nd part of Phantasm, Fair hits out of it, and Lasers stop it in its tracks. I'v never tried any of the others.

§witch · Dec 14, 2008

Everything can beat phantasm. The hitbox is immediately behind falco, therefore with perfect timing any move can hit him out of it.

J4pu · Dec 14, 2008

What switch said sounds correct.

I can do minor testing tomorrow, but I have some different things in mind that I want to test (involving CG>Dair>run-off Dair 0-deaths) so I don't know if I'll be testing anything else.

Denzi · Dec 14, 2008

§witch said:
Everything can beat phantasm. The hitbox is immediately behind falco, therefore with perfect timing any move can hit him out of it.

Really? I never knew that. But that means it's still extremely tough to do with a lot of moves though.

Blad01 · Dec 15, 2008

J4pu said:
What switch said sounds correct.

I can do minor testing tomorrow, but I have some different things in mind that I want to test (involving CG>Dair>run-off Dair 0-deaths) so I don't know if I'll be testing anything else.

Well, give us the results of your tests anyways

Everyone can propose something to test of course

J4pu · Dec 15, 2008

Blad01 said:
Well, give us the results of your tests anyways Everyone can propose something to test of course

sadly, sick sister = me babysitting =/= me testing at a friend's house.
maybe Wed.

§witch · Dec 15, 2008

Denzi said:
Really? I never knew that. But that means it's still extremely tough to do with a lot of moves though.

Yep, yet completely do-able

.

Vlade · Dec 17, 2008

What switch said I can confirm. I recently re-tested some of GW's other moves that initially failed to out-prioritise the phantasm, such as his dash attack. And I found that GW's entire moveset can outprioritise falco's phantasm. Exactly the same goes for MK - different moves require different timing.

Blad01 · Dec 17, 2008

So... By example, we could outprioritize it with Jab ?

Vlade · Dec 17, 2008

Yes. GW's and MK's jab can outprioritise it. Initially I thought that MK's jab could not, but in my 're-test' to prove switch's theory I found that it could. GW's jab is a lot easier to time though than MK's. Both of them can also out-prioritise the phantasm during the jab combo, but that requires the falco to be phantasm'ing' into the jab combo at the right time to be outprioritised.

Another example would be snake's mortar. Countless times I have phantasmed through it without getting hit. Countless times I have phantasmed through it and got hit. Either way, it's probably just best to avoid it in the first place. But it all depends on the timing on whether or not a certain move such as the mortar will out-prioritise the phantasm.

Vlade · Dec 17, 2008

Sorry about double post, but I thought a different topic had to be done in a different post.

Everyone probably knows about the laserlock, and the fact that it is an infinite against a wall (I hope). But the problem is, any stage with a wall you can't seem to laserlock them because the area next to the wall is either sloped or a hinderance in some way that you cannot keep a laserlock going. The only stage that I've managed to get the true infinite laserlock against a wall is Pokemon Stadium 1 in the 'rock' section (I think that's what it's called). It's against the wall in the middle of the stage, where everyone bounces around (I'm not talking about the other side of the wall next to the edge, there is not enough space there). It also isn't that hard to set up the infinite laserlock there either, since there is massive hitstun and opponents often don't walltech.

So my question is: Are there any other stages where a true infinite wall laserlock can be performed?

So far I have tested some legal stages and failed. These include delfino plaza (every wall I think) and corneria (the fin) as far as I can remember. I may have tested rainbow cruise, but it's been a while since I actually did these tests and I can be quite forgetful. So I'll get back to you guys on rainbow cruise.

Other stages to test that come to mind:

Pokemon Stadium 2? (I'm actually not sure if the rock section is a decent wall)
Pictochat (various walls because of different transformations)
Onett (self-explanatory)
Green Greens (against the bricks - they act like a wall)

Remember that we are only interested in legal stages, and some of these stages may not be legal at tournaments because of DeDeDe. However, most tournaments I know of allow these stages as long as both players agree.

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