Manual L-cancel vs Auto L-cancel for Brawl+

This is not S-cancel vs L-cancel. This a compilation of some of the pros and cons of each side of the debate from the Brawl+ thread. A separate thread was requested to cut down on repetition of points by consolidating them. I would've made a poll, but I can't seem to find the option!

Manual L
Pros:
- speeds up the game
- buffs offensive play
- rewards technical skill
- time-tested game mechanic
Cons:
- unfairly unnecessary by some chars (see auto-canceled aerials)
- skill requirement arguably moot
- adds a foreign mechanic

Auto L
Pros:
- speeds up the game
- buffs offensive play
- prevents technical barrier
- better wi-fi performance
- less code (21 lines saved (53-32))
Cons:
- laggy chars get better for free


Notes:
Depth:
The "depth" argument is null - depth is created by options, and since one will always choose to L-cancel rather than not, there is no added option, and thus no added depth. The only real argument is whether or not L-canceling is needed as a technical barrier.

Player Separation:
The need to further separate player skill in Brawl is arguable. The success of veterans has shown us that this is unnecessary. What Brawl really needs is speed and depth, and L-cancel delivers on the speed front. This doesn't mean that further skill separation would not be beneficial if created, but the separation effect of something akin to L-canceling can be arguably moot at high level play.

kupo15]Does manual l canceling separate advanced players from advanced players? How is it that Ninjalink's diddy can beat m2k's MK or Azen beating the top MK players with lucario? Or how is it that Anther can compete at a high level with Pikachu? Some stats: MK= 3 auto l canceled aerials Diddy= 2 auto l canceled aerials Lucario= 1 auto l canceled aerial Pikachu= 0 auto l canceled aerials If you take manual l canceling out of the equation said:

Skill vs. Reflex:[/COLOR]
Is L-canceling in general a reflex rather than a skill?

SketchHurricane said:

I disagree. It might become a reflex after mastery, but mastering the timing in different situations (shot hop, full hop, whether or not it's fast-falled, ect) is where the skill comes in.

Click to expand...

storm92 said:

It is slightly different in situations, but you don't actually think about it eventually after practicing. You see your character starting to hit the ground and subconsciously you hit L/R to L-cancel. If there is a skill involved, it is minimal and things like DI are much more demanding.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I am for Auto L-Cancel.

What is L-Cancel ? It's just pushing a button to reduce your landing lag after an aerial. Is there any reason not to do it ? Nope.

Is it useful in comparing the skill of expert players ? Nope. Every expert players should know how to L-Cancel every time, just like expert Street Fighters players know how to do every move, regardless of how difficult the combination is (Side note : this is why moves in the HD remix from Sirlin are easier to do).

What does L-Cancel do then ? Two things : First, it allows a faster gameplay and favorises attack. Second, it increases the distance between beginners and pros. A beginner wanting to be good at Smash will have to practice their L-Cancel, until they do it every time like everybody else.

What was the goal of putting back L-Cancel into Brawl ? Making the game faster, more aggressive and reducing camping effectiveness. Not increasing the time a new player takes to be pro.

Auto-Cancel does the first one, without the second one.

Do you benefit for not L-canceling?
No
Is there any strategic value to not L-canceling?
no.
Is the tech skill involved worth it being manual instead of automatic?
no.
is it beneficial for lag to be reduced.
Yes
Will lag be reduced by either implementation.
Yes
Will the game be faster by either implementation
yes.
Is the "skill" requirement large?
no.
Does L-canceling bring more people to the competitive scene.
No.
Can L-canceling shift people away from the competitive scene.
yes.


Now if lets say we were playing basketball.
If it was mandatory that before you shoot, you have to look both ways (as if you were crossing the street or something), does this implement skill?
No, because it is mandatory.
If for instance you did not have to in basketball Skill does become involved because now there are options.
having to look both ways takes time, but it allows you to prevent being "stuffed" by knowing someone is behind you. Or you can just shoot and thus are faster than if you did not look both ways.
Thus it can be beneficial to look both ways and it can be beneficial to shoot.
Whats more beneficial? IMO I prefer to just dam shoot, but others like to check their surroundings.

Now with L-canceling you have the option to L-cancel or not to.
There is absolutely no benefit to not L-canceling.
The skill required to L-cancel isn't deep enough to actually make it the difference between a good player and a bad player.
In fact generally the difference between the two players is simply because the good player does NOT know that L-canceling exists.
Once learning that it does it literally takes less than 10 minutes to get used to L-canceling.
Soooo skillfull....not.
Which means with LESS than 10 minutes of practice you are now tournament ready?
Thats so freaking stupid, that should not actual be a indicator of skill.
What made L-cancel at all have real Tech skill in melee was it's implementation with other moves in rapid succession.
No I do not mean Short hop Fast fall then L-cancel.
Short hop fast falling is more skill full then the L-cancel, and in actuality if you SH FF adding the L-cancel isn't hard at all, you just have to press that magical finger next to your thumb which...coincidentally works very well in conjunction with thumb, and thus since most people will use their thumb with the analog, using that magic finger.......IS REALLY easy.
If you had to use your thumb and middle finger that would be different as well, the flexibility from them is weaker...though still not significant enough to be called skill (unless your a guitar player).
In Brawl...What are you rapidly using in succession to make L-cancel an addition to your tech skill?
Nothing really.
What Wavedashing right after? Nope.

Show how adding L-canceling in brawl will add Tech skill, what is it being added on to?

You will in brawl
SHFFL, then you will.....SHFFL!!

Skill in my opinion is how you function in situations and react to situations.

There is no difference in the skill between L canceling at a Full hop and a short hop, as simply even if your looking at your opponent your eye will still catch that your character is about to hit the ground...and then wham, you twitch your finger and you L-canceled.
Just make it auto and save the arbituary hurdle for new players who go to a tournament..die, then go to Smashboards, read about L-canceling go to training and in 1 minute and 25 seconds they have mastered using it on spot, in another 1 minute and 25 seconds they mastered using it in a actual battle. In another Minute and 25 seconds they mastered using it in battle while spacing.
TODAH!


Autoplease kthxbai.


Though to protect my ***.


IN MY OPINON!

Basically, they are almost the same, except that you can actually be punished for l canceling. Just because it becomes a reflex doesn't mean that auto is the same thing. You can still miss l cancels.

It does NOT give much more of an advantage to auto cancelers. Why? Because shffling is much faster. And the argument of "well some people don't need it" doesn't work because its not that hard. It doesn't make it that much more difficult to play these characters.

Sketch, how about you make a poll in this thread so we can have a better detail on what the majority wants?

Right now I am very neutral about this since we haven't tested any of this out. Let's get the Auto-cancel and a fixed L-Cancel code out and we can go on from there.

To put in a nutshell for those who are for:

Manual L-Cancel ->finds autocanceling to be non-competitive. Has a familiarity with its predecessors and rewards players of being fluid. May attract more people from the Melee side.


Auto L-Cancel -> finds pressing a button pointless, and believes that there are more important things to take in account such as DI, that will fill the gap in adding "skill" to the game. May attract people from the Brawl side.

What I'm afraid of is that this is just going to have Melee fans want L-Cancelling of bias and Brawl fans want Auto-Cancelling out of bias.

Personally, I like Auto-Cancelling because L-Cancelling is just a task.

But the task makes the game more technical, and therefore more competitive.

It seperates new players from veteran players. It doesn't seperate veteran players from better veteran players.

1 w1nged @ngel said:

But the task makes the game more technical, and therefore more competitive.

Click to expand...

No it doesnt.

That doesn't make the game more competitive at all.
1. It does not increase the Competitive feel.
Who the HELL goes OMFG Button PRESS IM SO PUMPED UP I WANT TO BATTLE NAO!!!!...>.> no it doesn't increase the feeling of competition.

Technical wise, no no it doesn't >.>
You saying L-canceling makes the game more technical is the same as saying A makes the game more technical, only difference is A, actually gives you far more options.
Pressing A doesn't take Skill, it's what you do when pressing A that does, do you U-air, N, F,D or B-air.
Do you smash, tilt etc.
L is just L...thats it...
It has the same skill level as a person who just press's AAA....well less actually, as the effectiveness of AAA depends on things such as spacing and predicting in when you can get it landed on your opponent.
Where as L....L canceling has no dependency on your opponent, It's not something you keep in your back pocket or something you say "well this could help"
It's just something you do, or you fail.
L canceling isn't "true" skill.
Whether it was the standard or not (manual), I'd still use it, but it's still arbituary.

Look at how Fox used L-canceling in conjunction with such things like Waveshine....
Now compare that to what Metaknights going to do....Metaknights not really going to use Tech skill >.>

Veggi said:

It seperates new players from veteran players. It doesn't seperate veteran players from better veteran players.

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It still adds technicality to the game, which is good because brawl has no other technicality. It's basically the exact same except that manual makes the game more competitive.

Manual L-Cancel, by pressing a button does NOT show skill BUT pressing a button at the RIGHT TIME does.

Quit thinking it's just a single button press.

The timing for Manual L-Canceling will be almost always different b/c of the stages that have platforms, different elevation (Corneria and Yoshi's Island for example), and you need to time it correctly in order to be rewarded with fluidity and combos.

It'll make people say "Yea that took skill to do" rather than a "Pfft anyone and their mom could do that!"
But I could be wrong because of the ridiculous DI Brawl has to offer.

1 w1nged @ngel said:

It still adds technicality to the game, which is good because brawl has no other technicality. It's basically the exact same except that manual makes the game more competitive.

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This is so wrong.....

Wave bounce
B-reversal
DAC
Draconic reversal
Flight of Ganon
Quick Draw, which is like L-cancel in it's timing, yet due to the way it is implemented is overall a more skillfull technique.

and more.

L-canceling makes the game faster, and whether you do that manually or not doesn't matter.

It'll make people say "Yea that took skill to do" rather than a "Pfft anyone and their mom could do that!"
But I could be wrong because of the ridiculous DI Brawl has to offer.

Click to expand...

I've never said OMFG what crazy L-canceling that guy has watching melee.
I've gone...holy **** crazy DI, and others have too in melee though.
Also nah the timing really doesn't change, the timing is about when your going to hit the ground.
The muscle reflex comes in from seeing your character about to touch the ground.
The same way that if I throw a ball at your face, your hands instinctively fly to your face to protect you, that or you react in an effort to stop the Ball from actually hitting your face, such as back stepping or moving your head to the side.
Those are reflex's and L-canceling is the same.
"ah but you know there are different types of balls you can dodge!"
If I throw a small bouncy ball or if I throw a basketball your reaction is the same.
Protect your dam face, you don't do this consciously.
It's a reflex, just like L-canceling.

L-canceling is not a reflex the first time you learn it, however after using it multiple times it becomes a fluid nature, and thus a muscle reflex.

Like said before.
It seperates new from veterans, but it doesn't show the difference in skill between 2 veterans, there are other things that do that.

I'm for auto. Doesn't make much of a difference if you do it manually. Really, not much.

If you consider that most people here played Melee at least.. though.

Weighted Points:
Though Manual L-cancel seems to have more cons, the cons are generally weak IMO, and the extra (last two) pros on the Auto side are questionable to the grand scheme of things.

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I think you're really discrediting these points for the auto l-cancel, simply because they haven't been discussed as much as the other points have.

Shorter code is significant. The current l-cancel code is 53 lines. That's over a fifth of our code. In the mean time, the s-cancel code is only 28 lines. The auto l-cancel could potentially be even shorter than the s-cancel code is now (and it will definitely be shorter than the current manual l-cancel code), while if the timing on the manual l-cancel code were fixed, it would likely only increase in length. There are a lot of things we can do with brawl+, of which several will likely have to get tossed to the side due to a lack of room. With a shorter code, we'll actually be able to implement everything we want to. This point relies heavily upon the fact that both auto and manual l-canceling give roughly the same result in actual matches, thus making it one of the best cuts we could make. Of course, we might end up being able to implement everything regardless of which code we use. Only time will tell.

As for online, this is a very important part. If you want to play a competitive smash game in person, you can just play melee, which is still fairly big in most regions. Brawl's biggest advantage over melee is the online aspect, and if we're having desyncs whenever we try to play each other in brawl+ online, then it is essentially removing that aspect entirely from brawl. Don't discredit online. It's highly unlikely that the brawl+ community will grow to be extraordinarily large, which means the "best" (read: most accessible) source of practice would be online, while most meets in person would be for tournaments and such. Online is one of the biggest things brawl+ will have going for it. Don't take that away.

edit: I figured I'd mention that my internet access will be sparse in the next week or so, so if I don't respond to you until then, that's why.

Does manual l canceling separate advanced players from advanced players? How is it that Ninjalink's diddy can beat m2k's MK or Azen beating the top MK players with lucario? Or how is it that Anther can compete at a high level with Pikachu?

Some stats:
MK= 3 auto l canceled aerials
Diddy= 2 auto l canceled aerials
Lucario= 1 auto l canceled aerial
Pikachu= 0 auto l canceled aerials

If you take manual l canceling out of the equation, you will see that it is NOT the thing that adds competitiveness or is the element that differentiates players.

Yep. I prefer auto L-cancel. Manual just doesn't add anything other then a pointless tech barrier.

Im for manuel. With auto you cant be punished with manuel you can. Being able to punish= skill. Hence manuel=more skill

Veggi said:

What I'm afraid of is that this is just going to have Melee fans want L-Cancelling of bias and Brawl fans want Auto-Cancelling out of bias.

Personally, I like Auto-Cancelling because L-Cancelling is just a task.

Click to expand...

We've already has several top Melee ppl who like melee more who has been fooling around and prefer auto l canceling

Veggi said:

It seperates new players from veteran players. It doesn't seperate veteran players from better veteran players.

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Exactly. Everyone should stop talking about noobs and inadvanced players. They do not help the argument at all. They should not even be considered in this debate. Period.

omis? said:

Im for manuel. With auto you cant be punished with manuel you can. Being able to punish= skill. Hence manuel=more skill

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Wat?

Auto and Manual have the same result. The difference is Auto doesn't have a tacked on button press.

We have Auto l canceling folks


Auto L-Cancel: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 0000007C
92210003 00000014
58010000 000000C4
92210004 00000010
4A000000 805A0100
92210005 00000000
88A00004 00000005
4A001002 00000000
30000036 00000018
4A001003 00000000
92210005 00000040
88900005 00000004
94210005 00000040
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 800080004

brawl is just not a fun game. melee would be ten times better even if everything was auto cancelled.

`Jammin' Jobus said:

brawl is just not a fun game. melee would be ten times better even if everything was auto cancelled.

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Go away. No one said Brawl+ would replace Melee.

EDIT: Kupo. Vids?

Waitin' for auto-cancel code to be fixed.

THIS WORKS (thanks giza for fixing it)

Auto L-Cancel: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 0000007C
92210003 00000014
58010000 000000C4
92210004 00000010
4A000000 805A0100
92210005 00000000
88A00004 00000005
4A001002 00000000
30000036 00000018
4A001003 00000000
92210005 00000040
88900005 00000004
94210005 00000040
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

Vids shall be next weekend

Cool beans.

leafgreen386 said:

I think you're really discrediting these points for the auto l-cancel, simply because they haven't been discussed as much as the other points have.

Shorter code is significant. The current l-cancel code is 53 lines. That's over a fifth of our code. In the mean time, the s-cancel code is only 28 lines. The auto l-cancel could potentially be even shorter than the s-cancel code is now (and it will definitely be shorter than the current manual l-cancel code), while if the timing on the manual l-cancel code were fixed, it would likely only increase in length. There are a lot of things we can do with brawl+, of which several will likely have to get tossed to the side due to a lack of room. With a shorter code, we'll actually be able to implement everything we want to. This point relies heavily upon the fact that both auto and manual l-canceling give roughly the same result in actual matches, thus making it one of the best cuts we could make. Of course, we might end up being able to implement everything regardless of which code we use. Only time will tell.

As for online, this is a very important part. If you want to play a competitive smash game in person, you can just play melee, which is still fairly big in most regions. Brawl's biggest advantage over melee is the online aspect, and if we're having desyncs whenever we try to play each other in brawl+ online, then it is essentially removing that aspect entirely from brawl. Don't discredit online. It's highly unlikely that the brawl+ community will grow to be extraordinarily large, which means the "best" (read: most accessible) source of practice would be online, while most meets in person would be for tournaments and such. Online is one of the biggest things brawl+ will have going for it. Don't take that away.

edit: I figured I'd mention that my internet access will be sparse in the next week or so, so if I don't respond to you until then, that's why.

Click to expand...

Good!. This is the first post to actually add something to the discussion, and was exactly what I was trying to draw out. I updated the OP.

As for the poll, I was looking for the poll option but didn't see it. Can I edit it in? I'll check now...

The thing with Manual L-canceling is that nobody is perfect. Now that Brawl+ has perfected hitstun, combos are possible and some combos are only going to be possible if an aerial is L-canceled. Experienced players will land the L-cancel almost every time but nobody is perfect and the chance is there that they will miss therefore screwing up their combo or leaving them vulnerable long enough for their opponent to retaliate. With auto l-canceling they won't screw up because they can't.

Or we can try using Auto L-cancel and S-cancel together for more aerial landing options.

^Those few times where someone (usually new people) miss an L-cancel aren't really relevent. L-canceling isn't that hard, but it really adds nothing besides a pointless technical barrier. It only seperates players who know little-to-nothing of L-canceling from those who do.

The fact is you ALWAYS have to L-cancel. It's not an option like Wavedashing, its mandatory. If you always need your aerials with reduced lag, why not just make aerials have reduced lag out of the box?

And having Auto and S-canceling would about the same as having only S-canceling.

I'd be all for manual lag canceling if the timing on it was like in Melee. It would pretty much be a familiar reflex to most of us, then. But since that's not the case, may as well make it automatic.

I'm for manuel, only because I'd rather not change the game more than we have to automatically. I mean, changing gravity is one thing, but it just doesn't feel right to automatically have faster aerials. The L-cancel just feels right. Besides, you CAN miss it, which means you can be punished, which is good. One more thing to think about among all the chaos means a slightly harder game to play over all.

Besides L-cancel is a Smash Bros. TRADITION. It was in the first 2 games, so I think we should bring it back. You kids, back in my day we had to press L to shorten or lag whether we liked it or not...

The fact that manual L-Canceling is missable is another reason I'd like it if the timing were fixed. Whether or not there is any "skill" involved is a moot argument. All that matters is that it is possible to screw up and be punished for it.

Surely you can think of a match where a failed L-cancel gimped you. It's not like tripping where the gimp is the manifestation of a random variable, but is something entirely under your control.

Fenrir said:

The fact that manual L-Canceling is missable is another reason I'd like it if the timing were fixed. Whether or not there is any "skill" involved is a moot argument. All that matters is that it is possible to screw up and be punished for it.

Surely you can think of a match where a failed L-cancel gimped you. It's not like tripping where the gimp is the manifestation of a random variable, but is something entirely under your control.

Click to expand...

Ha, this is the point I was trying to make. You just did a much better job of it.

Fenrir said:

The fact that manual L-Canceling is missable is another reason I'd like it if the timing were fixed. Whether or not there is any "skill" involved is a moot argument. All that matters is that it is possible to screw up and be punished for it.

Surely you can think of a match where a failed L-cancel gimped you. It's not like tripping where the gimp is the manifestation of a random variable, but is something entirely under your control.

Click to expand...

The only people who screw up enough times for it to matter are those new to it. As said, it puts a pointless technical barrier between players who L-cancel and those who don't. Utilizing DI, Wavedash, and mindgames is what should seperate experienced and inexperienced players, not a simple button press. It doesn't add depth. It adds a slight reflex that becomes muscle memory. It also makes some laggier characters unneccessarily technical.

I'm for manual.

This has gone ignored

Does manual l canceling separate advanced players from advanced players? How is it that Ninjalink's diddy can beat m2k's MK or Azen beating the top MK players with lucario? Or how is it that Anther can compete at a high level with Pikachu?

Some stats:
MK= 3 auto l canceled aerials
Diddy= 2 auto l canceled aerials
Lucario= 1 auto l canceled aerial
Pikachu= 0 auto l canceled aerials

If you take manual l canceling out of the equation, you will see that it is NOT the thing that adds competitiveness or is the element that differentiates players. I mean, every move of Pika's has lag on it which is equivalent of someone "missing an l cancel" and he can still compete and win tourneys.

Click to expand...

Can this be added to the OP?

Marioblaze said:

I'm for manual.

Click to expand...

Care to say...why?

I like manual l-canceling because it adds more options to my gameplay since not every aerial can be auto-canceled well, like Mario's Fair. I just like stuff that give me more options, call me crazy but I like more options even if it means I have to do something extra. Nothing against auto-canceling because I like not having to worry about having to l-cancel when auto-canceling essentially can do the same for me at times, but slower moves get noticable boosts from l-canceling and I like having the option of being able to cancel that lag. Not complaining or anything, just saying I like l-canceling.

Judge Judy, this isn't auto-canceling.
It's L-canceling but it just does it when you hit the ground, so it's the same exact amount of options as you physically pressing the button.
Well, besides not pressing it at all and receiving full lag, but that's not really an option.

Judge Judy said:

I like manual l-canceling because it adds more options to my gameplay since not every aerial can be auto-canceled well, like Mario's Fair. I just like stuff that give me more options, call me crazy but I like more options even if it means I have to do something extra. Nothing against auto-canceling because I like not having to worry about having to l-cancel when auto-canceling essentially can do the same for me at times, but slower moves get noticable boosts from l-canceling and I like having the option of being able to cancel that lag. Not complaining or anything, just saying I like l-canceling.

Click to expand...

We are not talking about auto canceling. We are talking about auto l canceling, as in every aerial has l canceling built in. Like this hack is l canceling, except is automatic. Whether or not you press a button to cut your lag in half or you have the game do it for you, you get the same amount of options, right?

storm92 said:

Judge Judy, this isn't auto-canceling.
It's L-canceling but it just does it when you hit the ground, so it's the same exact amount of options as you physically pressing the button.
Well, besides not pressing it at all and receiving full lag, but that's not really an option.

Click to expand...

kupo15 said:

We are not talking about auto canceling. We are talking about auto l canceling, as in every aerial has l canceling built in. Like this hack is l canceling, except is automatic. Whether or not you press a button to cut your lag in half or you have the game do it for you, you get the same amount of options, right?

Click to expand...

Ah, sry I missunderstood the arguement then...IDC then lol, you can say I'm dumb or didn't read too if you want...I did read though, just didn't pay close enough attention I guess XD