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New ATs: ZAD, Slow Run, X-Slow Run, Ledge Running, Ledge Dashing

Remzi

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For the past couple of days, I've been messing around a lot with movement, more specifically dashing and running.

In this topic, I will be discussing ZAD, Running Zpeeds, Ledge Running, and Ledge Dashing:

*EDIT* I now have a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn_S0IPIwzs


Zero Acceleration Dash (ZAD):

A ZAD is exactly what it sounds like, a dash in which you don't move anywhere (for some characters you will move a very minimal amount). A ZAD is initiated by walking at full speed, then dashing in the opposite direction. It is important that you reset the analog to neutral position immediately after dashing, if you wish to travel the least possible distance from the dash. The longer it takes for you to let go of the analog, the further your character's dash will travel. There are a few utilities I have found for this technique. With Marth, for example, you can advance towards your opponent, then ZAD. When they see you turn around there is a great chance that they will drop their shields; in which case you can cancel the dash into a DB to punish your now wide open opponent. Another way to use the ZAD would be to ZAD>Stutterstep>Fsmash. This is easier for some characters than others. The ZAD is also essential for reaching one of three general running speeds that will be explained shortly.


Running Speeds:


This is a difficult concept to grasp even with a video so please bear with me and listen carefully. I'm not sure if anyone has realized this, but there is not only one running speed for each character. There are actually somewhere around 6. Think of each of these 6 as a speed level. 1 being the slowest and 6 being the fastest. These 6 speeds can be grouped into 3 larger groups. It's difficult to identify the more specific 6 running speeds, so I'll mainly be discussing the 3 initial running speeds.

Standard Run:

The standard run is the one we all know. The standard run also happens to be the fastest running animation for any character. It is done by dashing and holding forward on the analog. Since this is the fastest run, it covers speed 6. Although I once thought it wasn't possible, you CAN decelerate from a standard run to a slow run.


Slow Run:


Now is where it gets a little more difficult. This one takes a slight bit of tech skill. A slow run works similarly to fox trotting, except instead of dashing again the second time, you will tilt the analog as if you were attempting to walk. Your character should skip the dash animiation, and immediately move into a slower run. This type of run encompasses running speeds 3-5 depending on how far the analog is tilted. Slow running is unique in that a character in a slow run can change to and from any speed ranging from 3-5. Increasing and decreasing speed is as simple as tilting the analog slightly further/less to the side. This means that the only time you can decrease your running speed is when you are in speed 4 (to 3), speed 5 (to 4 or 3), or speed 6 (to 3, 4, or 5). Attempting to go back to speeds 1 or 2 by tilting the analog less than that required for speed 3 will result in an end to the running animation.

In order to decrease from a standard run to a slow running speed, you must tilt the analog slightly downwards or upwards (down seems to be easier, especially if you have tap jump on) and bring the analog slightly closer to neutral horizontally as well. It is very difficult to control whether you reach speeds 3, 4, or 5 when moving into a slow run this way. (THANKS TO "Luigi Player" FOR TELLING ME HOW TO MOVE FROM A STANDARD RUN TO A SLOW RUN).


X-Slow Run:


The X-Slow Run is the slowest of the bunch and the toughest to reach. To my knowlege, the X-Slow Run can only be done by attempting to do a slow run directly off of a ZAD. This means that you would have to ZAD>SlowRun. Depending on how far the analog is tilted, you can reach either speeds 1 or 2 using this method. It is impossible to decrease speed when in an X-Slow Run, in fact you may not even remain in an X-Slow Run for more than a few seconds. Even if you do not move the analog any further, you will automatically increase in speed and move into a Slow Run. For some characters such as Marth, speed 1 is so slow that your character will momentarily appear to be running in place. While for others, such as Fox, it is difficult to differentiate between an X-Slow Run and a Slow Run.


Individual Running Speed Data:

-Speed 1: Automatically increases to speed 2 after a small amount of time. Some characters may appear to be running in place.
-Speed 2: Automatically increases to speeds 3,4, or 5 (depending on how far the analog is tilted) after a small amount of time.
-Speed 3: Can increase to speeds 4,5, or 6 by tilting the analog further. Speed required for ledge running.
-Speed 4: Can decrease to speed 3 or increase to speeds 5-6 by tilting the analog less/more to the side.
-Speed 5: Can decrease to speeds 3-4 or increase to speed 6 by titlting the analog less/more to the side.
-Speed 6: The fastest speed. Locked, characters cannot decrease or increase speed while at this stage.


Ledge Running:


I discovered ledge running while fiddling with running speeds. However it seems a member named Jigglymaster encountered this before me so props to him.

Though, I believe I have achieved a better grasp on how to do it. Also, his method is different; it involves crouching and is quite odd IMO, so I'll just explain it a different way. Ledge running is simply running along the edge of a stage without falling off. So you will basically appear to be running in place along the ledge. I assume this can be used to effectively edgeguard with dash attacks, though I haven't tried it on a real opponent yet.

To do this, you have to approach the edge running at what seems to be speed 3. As long as you remain at speed 3, you will run in place and will not fall off the ledge. If you tilt the analog too far or too little, you will either stop in place or go to either speeds 4,5, or 6 and end up falling off.

Ledge Dashing

When you are extremely close to the edge of the stage (so close that your character enters the "tipping over" animation) any movement in the direction away from the stage will take you off. However, if you quickly whip the analog to the side and immediately let go, your character will dash in place. If you do the same thing, but only move the analog half way or so, your character will pump fake forward if you will.

Link to video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn_S0IPIwzs

Thanks for reading, hope you learned something!

Questions? Comments? Post them.
 

kr3wman

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I'm not 100% sure, but those sometime happens when you mess up your Dashdance in Melee, correct? Looked really sweet.
 

Remzi

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I'm not 100% sure, but those sometime happens when you mess up your Dashdance in Melee, correct? Looked really sweet.
Hmm, I'm not sure. I wasn't as into the Melee competitive scene unfortunately, so I didn't really analyze anything too much. You could be right, though.
 

XienZo

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Nice job, looks interesting.

BTW, you put speed 5 as the ledge-running speed on the chart.
 

Tenki

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:laugh:

That's funny, Sonic's run and stuff are so important to his metagame that we've messed around with this stuff months ago.

Well, alot of the stuff you mention here can be started differently as Sonic - he has an extended foxtrot length in which he can do a foxtrot slide (aka "grinding" or "surfing"), or ease into a slow run.

Slow run, ledge run (we called it "infinite run"), etc, could all be started in a foxtrot's ending lag.

We didn't necessarily go into as much depth as you, but we basically had 3 categories:
The extra slow run (foxtrot --> tilt slightly)
Slow run (I guess this encompasses speeds 3-5 in your categorization, also the one we used for infinite run on the edge)
and full-dash (speed 6?)

PS:
I'm pretty sure you can slow-run/infinite run (bah, we named it first!) from a full-speed dash. If I can do it with Falcon, I'm pretty sure any character can do it too - just pull back slightly on the control stick.
 

Remzi

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Nice job, looks interesting.

BTW, you put speed 5 as the ledge-running speed on the chart.
Thanks, fixed.

Tenki said:
That's funny, Sonic's run and stuff are so important to his metagame that we've messed around with this stuff months ago.

Well, alot of the stuff you mention here can be started differently as Sonic - he has an extended foxtrot length in which he can do a foxtrot slide (aka "grinding" or "surfing").

Slow run, ledge run (we called it "infinite run"), etc, could all be started in a foxtrot's ending lag.

PS:
I'm pretty sure you can slow-run/infinite run (bah, we named it first!) from a full-speed dash. If I can do it with Falcon, I'm pretty sure any character can do it too - just pull back slightly on the control stick.
Lol, figures the Sonic board would at least get to some of this ^_^

That's interesting, could you elaborate on starting a slow run from "Fox trot's ending lag," please.

Also, I'm pretty certain that you can't decrease speed once you are already at full speed. Maybe Falcon is an exception? I'll double check.

Thanks for the input.
 

Snare

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Zero Acceleration Dash (ZAD):

A ZAD is exactly what it sounds like, a dash in which you don't move anywhere (for some characters you will move a very minimal amount). A ZAD is initiated by walking at full speed, then dashing in the opposite direction. It is important that you reset the analog to neutral position immediately after dashing, if you wish to travel the least possible distance from the dash. The longer it takes for you to let go of the analog, the further your character's dash will travel. There are a few utilities I have found for this technique. With Marth, for example, you can advance towards your opponent, then ZAD. When they see you turn around there is a great chance that they will drop their shields; in which case you can cancel the dash into a DB to punish your now wide open opponent. Another way to use the ZAD would be to ZAD>Stutterstep>Fsmash. This is easier for some characters than others. The ZAD is also essential for reaching one of three general running speeds that will be explained shortly.
that sounds like the SNR desync for ice climbers, someone want to confirm that?

nice thread btw ^^, extremly slow running mindgames
 

Tenki

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Lol, figures the Sonic board would at least get to some of this ^_^

That's interesting, could you elaborate on starting a slow run from "Fox trot's ending lag," please.

Also, I'm pretty certain that you can't decrease speed once you are already at full speed. Maybe Falcon is an exception? I'll double check.

Thanks for the input.
Sonic's foxtrot is kind of special in that it's kind of slippery.

If you slight-tilt during the ending lag, you'll slide across the floor and accelerate ("grind/surf")

If you tilt a little past half-way, instead of accelerating, you'll do something like a ZAD/super slow run.

Also, I've done the run-speed decrease with Sonic too o_O;

edit:

There's a chance that I might actually have been doing the run-speed decreases before reaching full-speed, but I can't confirm anything right now as I don't normally have a wii to play with over the week ^^;
 

Remzi

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Snare: Thanks, though I'm unsure about the desync thing. I know nothing about the ICs tbh.

Sonic's foxtrot is kind of special in that it's kind of slippery.

If you slight-tilt during the ending lag, you'll slide across the floor and accelerate ("grind/surf")

If you tilt a little past half-way, instead of accelerating, you'll do something like a ZAD/super slow run.

Also, I've done the run-speed decrease with Sonic too o_O;

edit:

There's a chance that I might actually have been doing the run-speed decreases before reaching full-speed, but I can't confirm anything right now as I don't normally have a wii to play with over the week ^^;
The grinding/surfing thing is news to me, sounds pretty cool :)

I think you have ZAD confused, though. ZAD is simply the beginning dash animation except that you don't move at all. It sounds to me like you're just referring to a Slow Run. Sorry if my explanations were unclear.


And yea, I was going to suggest that you may have just been in a Slow run already when you were decreasing speed and didn't know it.

Thanks, and again sorry for any confusion from the OP. Some of that stuff is tough to explain.
 

J4pu

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the ledge-running was discovered a very long time ago by a sonic player (there was a youtube video but I can't find it). may/june i believe.

EDIT- "You're too slow" at self
 

Tenki

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The grinding/surfing thing is news to me, sounds pretty cool :)

I think you have ZAD confused, though. ZAD is simply the beginning dash animation except that you don't move at all. It sounds to me like you're just referring to a Slow Run. Sorry if my explanations were unclear.
- It sounds cool and it looks cool, but aside from that, it's really limiting lol. Arguably, Sonic has one of the most versatile dashes with his screech stop with low ending lag and complete momentum stop, and his foxtrot slide/'grind' being cancellable with side-B and shield, but it feels inefficient at times for anything except for delayed dash attacks.

- You can definitely pull something off like that out of Sonic's foxtrot, if ZAD is an instant release of your dash as soon as you start it. Sonic will show his running animation, but barely move at all.
 

PK-ow!

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You're "zero acceleration dash" isn't technically a dash of zero acceleration. You are accelerating, since your velocity changed (it stopped being nonzero, from the walk).

It's only a 'zero velocity dash,' or zero speed dash.

You could maybe cut out the middle word entirely and call it a Zero Dash for style points. But zero acceleration, it ain't.

[/stick-up-my-butt-ery]

EDIT: Wait a minute, what was I thinking posting this?

That slash tag shouldn't be there.

[stick-up-my-butt-ery]
Don't worry guys, I won't stop the magic.
 

Remzi

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- It sounds cool and it looks cool, but aside from that, it's really limiting lol. Arguably, Sonic has one of the most versatile dashes with his screech stop with low ending lag and complete momentum stop, and his foxtrot slide/'grind' being cancellable with side-B and shield, but it feels inefficient at times for anything except for delayed dash attacks.

- You can definitely pull something off like that out of Sonic's foxtrot, if ZAD is an instant release of your dash as soon as you start it. Sonic will show his running animation, but barely move at all.
I'm gonna have to start messing with Sonic, I like that type of stuff.

PK-ow!: ZAD sounds good, thats why I called it that. I realize it's not actually zero acceleration, but its dam.n close and I like the name. ^_^
 

K 2

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Are there any practical applications to the slow run? If you press A while slow running, you will perform a dash attact, right?
 

Remzi

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Yes, you would do a dash attack. I haven't tested this too much in actual matches, though. I've tried ledge running to dash attack with G&W and Marth, and that was pretty nice. I've also done a ZAD>X-Slow Run>Pivot Grab, which worked, but seems rather gimmicky, I wouldn't recommend using it that way. Feel free to test for yourself and share what you found.
 

Pearl Floatzel

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Are there any practical applications to the slow run? If you press A while slow running, you will perform a dash attact, right?
You can accelerate and decelerate while slow running, allowing you to fake your opponent into mistiming attacks because you either just sped up and ran past them, or you slowed down. This is helpful for characters whose dash attacks can set up for other attacks. (Sonic, Falco)

And it just looks kinda weird. Visual mindgames.

ZAD? I just dashdance in place. I don't really get the point of a new method to do the same type of thing, but okay. Maybe less trippage?
 

Remzi

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You got the right idea Pearl, its all about mindgames :)

ZAD and Dash dance have much different utilities. ZAD is used during a walking approach as a fakeout, or to start-up a X-slow run. Plus yea, dash dancing makes you trip:)
 

Remzi

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Ok, video added. Also, I've added a section on Ledge Dashing. And I found out that ledge running actually occurs on Speed 3 not 4 as I originally thought. I hope its easier understand now with a vid.

Title changed also
 

IrArby

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As far as utility goes the main problem that I think these techs will run into is the space required to execute alot of them since it seems for say ZADing you need to go a certain amount of distance before executing it. If it was usuable directly out of an initial dash then that'd be great but from what I read/saw, it doesn't seem so. Slow and X-Slow Run seem more accessible although they also seem less useful. Good work nonetheless. I'm just trying to be critical here.
 

Remzi

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As far as utility goes the main problem that I think these techs will run into is the space required to execute alot of them since it seems for say ZADing you need to go a certain amount of distance before executing it. If it was usuable directly out of an initial dash then that'd be great but from what I read/saw, it doesn't seem so. Slow and X-Slow Run seem more accessible although they also seem less useful. Good work nonetheless. I'm just trying to be critical here.
As far as ZAD goes; I the vid kind of exaggerates the space needed to execute it. As long as you are walking at full speed, you can ZAD. You still do need a bit of room to do it. You have to ZAD in order to do an X-Slow Run, so ZAD is definitely the more accessible of the two. But you are right that Slow Run has the least situational startup of the three and is probably the least useful, lol.

Thanks for your input!
 

IrArby

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Sure thing. Another thing you might want to consider is that Marth (at least in Melee) took longer than many characters to reach his fastest walking speed (I'm pretty sure of this) and I don't think they've adjusted that much for Brawl. Therefore, he'd need more space than some chars to do this I think but I'm guessing it has better utility for him than most chars too. He has the greater range than most chars with his SideBs, Fsmash, Ftilt, Grab, and Dtilt.

Which brings me to a question: If you walk/trot/Ican'tremember towards your opponent and ZAD backwards (hopefully forcing them to drop their shield etc) can you turn around and dash back at them? This would be pretty useful akin to the Melee equivalent of Wavedashing one direction and asap dashing the other (Cactus dashing) which leaves you available to retreat or advance however you choose. Could you possibly ZAD and immediately Dashdance in the original direction? This still only allows you to grab, Dashattack, or upsmash but its a mixup nontheless. I'll go check it out myself and stop pestering you but these are hopefully some possible ideas.
 

Remzi

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Sure thing. Another thing you might want to consider is that Marth (at least in Melee) took longer than many characters to reach his fastest walking speed (I'm pretty sure of this) and I don't think they've adjusted that much for Brawl. Therefore, he'd need more space than some chars to do this I think but I'm guessing it has better utility for him than most chars too. He has the greater range than most chars with his SideBs, Fsmash, Ftilt, Grab, and Dtilt.

Which brings me to a question: If you walk/trot/Ican'tremember towards your opponent and ZAD backwards (hopefully forcing them to drop their shield etc) can you turn around and dash back at them? This would be pretty useful akin to the Melee equivalent of Wavedashing one direction and asap dashing the other (Cactus dashing) which leaves you available to retreat or advance however you choose. Could you possibly ZAD and immediately Dashdance in the original direction? This still only allows you to grab, Dashattack, or upsmash but its a mixup nontheless. I'll go check it out myself and stop pestering you but these are hopefully some possible ideas.
Hmm, I'll have to look into that bit about Marth taking longer to reach full speed. And yea he does have better utility for it, especially with DB.

And yes, you can dash dance out of a ZAD.

nonessential ....
mmhm. neither is any AT, your point?
 

Tero.

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mmhm. neither is any AT, your point?
yeah it's brawl, AT's are overrated. everyone is searching for stuff to make it look more competitive. Brawl is more about spacing and stuff (don't use the word mindgame >_>).

If you want good AT's play melee :)
 

Remzi

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ok so what you are saying is to run(analog stick all the way over) and then just bring it back a little?

btw i am asking about the slow run.
Almost. What you have to do is dash, immediately reset analog to neutral position, then tilt the analog in the same direction as if you were trying to walk.


Tero: There actually have been a good amount of useful ATs. Maybe not as many as melee, but I like Brawl better, sue me.
 

IxxI

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Hmm. Looks like a lot of techniques with potential. Soon we'll discover enough things to make something extremely useful.
 

Luigi player

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Standard Run:

The standard run is the one we all know. The standard run also happens to be the fastest running animation for any character. It is done by dashing and holding forward on the analog. Since this is the fastest run, it covers speed 6. Once you reach speed 6, either by starting with a standard run or increasing to speed 6 from a lower speed, it is impossible reduce the running speed without completely stopping the running animation.
Yes you can run slower if you are during your fastest run (without stopping).

I just discovered it ^^


If you run and tilt the controlstick down or up a bit (I prefer down since I have stick jump on) your animation gets slower and you will run slower!
 

Remzi

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Luigi Player: That sounds awesome :D

After testing it I'll add it to the original post. I'll be sure to credit you appropriately of course.

joenopride: That's interesting, looks like it was quite difficult to preform in melee though o_O
 
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