Z1GMA to *Death Combo - now with video

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVhXoTJagKs (crap quality)

I was inspired by Z1GMA's thread with the new approach to comboing. I'll cut to the chase, this deals with using unsweetspotted zair to setup a jab wake up. You then "kill" with a semi charged fsmash or fully charged blast. Here is how it is done:

Z represents the lowest possible % that causes a character to fall and bounce, granted that they don't airdodge or tech.

1. When a character is at Z percent, hti with unsweet zair (preferable the fast fall method 0RLy made a thread about).
2. Chase (either walking or running). When you reach the enemy stop and let them bounce.
3. Jab
4. Either fire charge blast to hit while they are getting up -OR- run up, stop, and start charging fsmash. Release when they're hitable

That's about it. From my small amount of testing, this works pretty well vs heavies and fast fallers. Floaty characters generally have more leeway before they bounce so it's probably not too practical.

Here are the characters and their Z%s:

Mario: 111
Luigi: 111
Peach: 112
Bowser: 129

Donkey Kong: 122
Diddy Kong: 108
Yoshi: 116
Wario: 115

Link: 115
Zelda: 104
Sheik: 104
Ganon: 118 (can get two jabs in O_o, poor ganon)
Toon Link: 108

Samus: 117
ZSS: 101 (was hardest character for me to jab)
Pit: 109
ICs: 108
ROB: 116

Kirby: 100
Meta Knight: 103
DDD: 119
Olimar: 102

Fox: 101
Falco: 102
Wolf: 114
Captain Falcon: 115

Pikachu: 100
Ivy: 112
Squirtle: 116
Charizard: 118
Lucario 112
Jiggs: 94

Marth: 105 - looks like he can get an easy fair before you get the jab ;_;
Ike: 115
Ness: 109
Lucas: 109
G&W: 98
Snake: 120
Sonic: 109

Credits for Inspiration:

0RLy - FF zair making it easy to hit small characters and allowing me to quickly chase tumbling foes.
Z1GMA - bringing up jab reset topic.


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I haven't done this vs any people yet so I don't know how well it will work but hey, zair is not the hardest thing to set up . We'll see where this goes.

<3


This is pretty coo'

hmm nice i'll give this a shot asap ^__^

Very cool.. like to see video, of course, but only cause I'm home for Thanksgiving and can't try it myself yet.

Oh yeah, and just to be clear, can you explain the method that ORly was using? I remember a thread about SH to FF zair that made the zair come out not that far, but you didn't mention SH so I don't think thats it. If you're just talking about FF a zair from any height so that it is already out when it hits your opponent and you can aim it so they hit the shaft not the tip, that makes sense.

But yeah, thanks for this it seems great.

Very cool!
I was hoping for someone to take this to the next level, and now you've done that : )
zair really seems to put them in a small reaction-window compared to my setups.
Very well done sir..

Oh and I love the title of this thread ^^

Good stuff as normal Rohins. I'll be sure to experiment with this stuff.

: ) Also SH sweetspot bair in the getup lag works as a finisher here..

Looks good, i gotta try this.

I was doing this a fairly long time ago. Realized the risk vs reward makes it not worth it in high level play.

They can tech the fall, attack (most common @ high level), or Air dodge. In addition to this, you will almost always get shield grabbed if you attempt to Z-air that close.

Rohins delivers.

tha_carter said:

I was doing this a fairly long time ago. Realized the risk vs reward makes it not worth it in high level play.

They can tech the fall, attack (most common @ high level), or Air dodge. In addition to this, you will almost always get shield grabbed if you attempt to Z-air that close.

Click to expand...

Actually, most common is actually air dodge and you will almost always get shield grabbed if you use ANY ATTACK that close. We have mindgames. Lets use them. Also, homing missiles set up for this, but then again, homing missiles set up everything.

MRS1 said:

Oh yeah, and just to be clear, can you explain the method that ORly was using? I remember a thread about SH to FF zair that made the zair come out not that far, but you didn't mention SH so I don't think thats it. If you're just talking about FF a zair from any height so that it is already out when it hits your opponent and you can aim it so they hit the shaft not the tip, that makes sense.

Click to expand...

I'll explain it myself. Shffz isn't required to do this, but fastfalling a zair widens the window for a follow-up attack for Samus. Also, you'll want your foe to be pretty close to you so you don't have to run as far to combo with it. Rohins was able to take the shortcomings of both Z1GMA's and my discoveries and turn it into a kill set-up. Bravo! I have run out of internetz to give, so here is some delicious cake.

...haha... shffz is shffl from ssb64 ._.




















I wasn't lying about the cake.

tha_carter said:

They can tech the fall, attack (most common @ high level), or Air dodge. In addition to this, you will almost always get shield grabbed if you attempt to Z-air that close.

Click to expand...

Yup it's already been mentioned that it's not guaranteed after the zair connects. Yes close range zairs are vulnerable to shields. As are any other close range move Samus has. If you can't setup a close range zair then only use it to punish vs characters with laggy attacks.

0RLy said:

I wasn't lying about the cake.

Click to expand...

Appreciate the cake :D

I just can't seem to think this would be applicable in an actual match. I think of these things in this manner.

1. Test it out on a CPU that is unable to move.
2. Test it out on a CPU that is able to move.
3. Test it out on a human player.

Usually a lot of things can be applied against CPUs that don't move. It's slightly different when the CPU does move. Even if the CPU does move and you are able to perform the technique, doesn't necessarily mean it will work on human players. Even if it can be used against human players, it ends up situational.

@0Rly
In my experience attacking instead of airdodging is the most used at high level. Especially since most characters outrange Samus in close range.

And using a move that close doesnt 'almost always' mean getting sheild grabbed. N-air can poke a person's head well, and FF D-air> U-smash(land behind) can break shields. Theres just better options.


@Rohins
If you absolutely insist on using it, i found the best way to use it is on the spacies. Bait the reflect with a full hopped homing missile, and z-air just before you hit the ground. Other than that, d-smash as SOON as you touch ground, if your z-air is shielded. Its the only reasonable move that with push them far enough to prevent being sheild grabbed.

Dryn said:

I just can't seem to think this would be applicable in an actual match.

Click to expand...

The same can be said for any of samus' techniques. Like all things this is situational.

tha_carter said:

@Rohins
If you absolutely insist on using it, i found the best way to use it is on the spacies. Bait the reflect with a full hopped homing missile, and z-air just before you hit the ground. Other than that, d-smash as SOON as you touch ground, if your z-air is shielded. Its the only reasonable move that with push them far enough to prevent being sheild grabbed.

Click to expand...

lol I'm not insisiting on anything. I'm simply stating landing zairs when you know what your opponent is going to do is not too hard. Forcing approaches (especially in this game) is always a bad idea with samus, it is not unique to zair. Mentioning so is rudimentary.

Your "better approaches" all snuffed just as easily, just not grabbed. The idea in general is to *not* be predictable. I guess I should assume players to neglect the idea of properly setting up moves and only focussing on how things are punished.

I haven't had the chance to play nor apply jab resets to my game but it will be the focus when I return to Tampa. At this point there doesn't really feel like anything else to work on other than spacing, matchups and stages.

Rohins said:

The same can be said for any of samus' techniques. Like all things this is situational.

Click to expand...

I'd say it's easier to perform u-air followed up by another u-air followed up by a Charge Shot. Some things are easier to perform like a z-air to dash attack to Screw Attack.

The best part isn't what it does.. it's what it prevents.

Rohins said:

Close up, do a zair. Run / walk to chase, jab once after they bounce. Fire fully charged blast so they wake up in the hitbox.

I guess you could technically just fire the charged blast but it's a waste if you miss. If they react you don't waste a charge blast but if you land the hit it is a *guaranteed charge blast.

Click to expand...

I like the way Rohins's thinking here;
It prevents a wasted charge shot.

ok just got through some testing of this in training mode...
i used 1/4 speed and put 2nd player on control to see what kind of options they had after the ff zair....

it looks like the opponent is incapacitated most of the time after the zair... meaning this is still a very good follow up...
but i'm not sure its inescapable...
it seems right* before the character lands they can jump away or airdodge or aerial i think, and also right after they land they can go into a shiuld preventing a bounce....

i'll try to look into it more though...
it could very well be that while escapable the opponent will still have to learn how to avoid it and it could still be very effective... sort of in the way you can avoid dash attack to screw attack... but it takes awhile for the opponent to catch on ^^......
anyways this looks really kwl, i def want to look into this :D

edit: sorry i didn't realize this had already been mentioned ^^
anyways as far as it being situational is concerned if you know the percentages it shouldn't be very situational at all...
ffzairs cover great distance on land already, plus it is easily executed from the ledge as well....
all you really need is space...

Its situational becuz the opponent can tech, air dodge or attack after Zair

Nice find btw Rohins ^_^

wow cool stuff usualy when i get a zair like that i instantly jab instead of waiting because it sucksthem back in : D but im gona try this out

ok i tested this A LOT today with my bf (who plays snake)
and I've got to say going into this i was REAALLY excited not bc of the zigma to death combo
but bc the possibility that the bounce will excecute a jab lock, and since there is a bounce initiated at low percentages (utilt) around 10% a bounce at mid percentages (dair) around 40% and a bounce at higher percents (ffzair) around 110% I was vitually looking at an automatic stock for samus if i could set up these three moves @.@

However, this sadly is not the case... it turns out there is a vast difference between training mode and person on person brawl....at least in my exp.
even on my first attempts at using any of the bounces my opponent instinctively jumped afterwards or shielded upon landing thereby cancelling out any of the above setups....
all in all i'd say... i don't think it will be very effective sorry

although the ffzair to jab to charge shot had the highest success rate... it was still cancelled out almost all of the time while i played XP...
utilts and dair i could barely ever to get to bounce.... usually my opponent would jump at the peak of the initial hit...
however, if any of u guys also test this and come up with opposing success rates plz tell me ^^ i'm interested in this for obvious reasons.

Double utilts at around 5-12% yields the most success for me. Note that the utilts shouldn't occur immediately after the one before it. Wait a split second... like... 5-10 frames?

Utilt>charged dsmash yields second most success.

I'm starting to hate how everything in Brawl turns into rock, paper, scissors.

Lol.....UB