CG on wario using grab release>Dair>jab>grab (tested on human foe, results in the OP)

as we all know, the grab release on wario sets up for alot of free arials, so I started thinking how to 'abuse' this against him.
I thought up a possible 0-death combo on wario, starting with a grab at 0 percent

the combo:

grab>grab release>AC Dair>jab(>jab)>grab>grab release>AC Dair>jab(>jab)>grab>grab release>AC Dair>jab(>jab)>grab>grab release>AC Dair>jab(>jab)>grab etc.
(and I mean spike wario onto the stage with the AC Dair each time offcourse)
and one can replace the AC Dair after a grab release with a sweetspotted knee when wario is at high enough percent to get KO'd by the knee
(maybe it is best, to jab once each time, as your opponent may DI away)

and if done correctly, one seems to be able to do the 0-death combo in place :D (still testing on humans is required to make sure it's inescapable)

this way, one seems to be able to do this combo in place (if the opponent doesn't techroll, wich'll require you to techchase)

grab>grab release>AC Dair>DI past wario>buffer turnaround>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>DI past wario>buffer turnaround>jab>grab etc. :D

There could be some problems though:
It could be teched after the AC Dair, so the jab may not connect, but as far as I know, one can punish the tech with a grab, meaning you can still keep the combo going even if they tech. (techchase if needed)

so, as it stands now:

if you start the combo on wario at 0 percent:

(maybe the very first jab after the grab release>AC Dair may be escapable, as the said hitstun may not yet occur, although it still seems to work from 0 percent, so maybe this combo is really inescable starting when wario has around 15%)
grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab - at this point the opponent wario will have around 51 %, wich is the time he'll start beeing able to techroll/maybe roll away (as before this point he would just be in hitstun from the Dair) before you can jab, so if you want to be safe, you grab release>sweet knee at this point, wich'll set the opponent wario to 70% damage.
If you want to continue, the opponent might be able to techroll or roll away before your jab, so you'll have to be ready to techchase if needed. If you choose this way, you can keep this combo going till you think it's enough (probably when the opponent wario is at a percent that the grab release>sweet knee will KO him)

and if you also use grab hits, it takes fewer regrabs before the grab release>sweet knee is fatal

I did some testing on a human player, and here are the results:

At lower percents, wario can up before you jab, but at around 15% it starts to work really well
It is best to only jab once everytime because:
1 they could maybe DI too far away for you to regrab during 2 jabs
2 if the opponent techs after the Dair, the jab misses, but the grab will punish the tech, making you able to continue the combo

It is pretty much inescapable from around 20 - 51 percent
and it is possible to infinite an opponent with this if you perfectly techchase each time when needed

so this is a pretty good strategy against wario, as escaping it is difficult as a techchase could let you regrab them.

Sometimes, if you don't jab cancel correctly I guess, they can DI away after one jab. But as far as I tested, if you jab cancel and buffer turnaround>jab when needed, this is pretty much inescapable

feel free to test this yourself to make sure though, as I could have overseen something while testing, but I don't think so, so as it stands now, it works :D

(I hope to get a vid of this combo up soon)
Good quality vid of the CG on wario here: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=IL0yRB-Y_0A&fmt=18

Sounds sexy, vids plaws.

Gf2tw said:

Sounds sexy, vids plaws.

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I hope to test this on a human player soon, and when I do, I'll record it (if it works offcourse)

man knee.................your thinking like my bro (IC main)

he always does fancy grabs on me that are completely not necessary like Fthrow chain to the edge then instead of spiking me with Dthrow to Fair, he does Bthrow chain to like 150% then kills with an Usmash. That fancy crap wasn't needed to get the kill, and if he screwed up he would have given me a chance to counter and possible kill him.

same thing with this grab release, why not just keep it simple and grab release to the end of the stage then Usmash for the kill?? seems simpler and more effective

It sounds cool but it would be hard reading the opponents correct to go zero to death. However, this should be a good strategy regardless.

Ayaz18 said:

man knee.................your thinking like my bro (IC main)

he always does fancy grabs on me that are completely not necessary like Fthrow chain to the edge then instead of spiking me with Dthrow to Fair, he does Bthrow chain to like 150% then kills with an Usmash. That fancy crap wasn't needed to get the kill, and if he screwed up he would have given me a chance to counter and possible kill him.

same thing with this grab release, why not just keep it simple and grab release to the end of the stage then Usmash for the kill?? seems simpler and more effective

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but isn't this the only way (except grab release>sweetknee>regrab on wario at really low percents) that lets you regrab wario without him beeing able to move?

and the Usmash variation only ko's when he already has high(er) percents

and if done correctly, one seems to be able to do the 0-death combo in place :D (still testing on humans is required to make sure it's inescapable)

this way, one seems to be able to do this combo in place(if the opponent doesn't techroll, wich'll require you to techchase)

grab>grab release>AC Dair>DI past wario>buffer turnaround>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>DI past wario>buffer turnaround>jab>grab etc. :D

AC dair is just shorthopped right? if not can someone explain?

dude knee... this is getting sexy

Player-3 said:

AC dair is just shorthopped right? if not can someone explain?

dude knee... this is getting sexy

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yes, AC Dair = SH then immediatly Dair so the move finishes in the air so you don't endure landing lag

illinialex24 said:

It sounds cool but it would be hard reading the opponents correct to go zero to death. However, this should be a good strategy regardless.

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you cant DI grab releases... It would be awsome if this worked, tho...

he meant DI ing the jabs

and i think they can roll out before you land from the stomp

viparagon said:

you cant DI grab releases... It would be awsome if this worked, tho...

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exactly

and yeah, this is one of the things I actually see happening, I mean, I can't think of anything other than teching that could stop this from working, and the teching isn't too hard to counter and continue the combo
I'm not 100% sure it's inescapable though, but I think it is (and I hope it is)

da K.I.D. said:

he meant DI ing the jabs

and i think they can roll out before you land from the stomp

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it could be that one can roll out of the way, but I don't think so, as they seem to have a 'ouch I got spiked onto the stage animation' and the jab comes out really fast

and even if they can roll out of the way in time, it'll still just require a techchase to continue the combo

yeah I can see this being useful for in place grabs, which is good because if Wario counters to battlefield then you can't infinite him as easily.

but jabing wario as soon as you do the Dair would allow for a jab reset and then another grab or smash could be followed up immediately, but if he techs the Dair you gotta hope that you can remember to tech chase from melee.

awesome, i really want to see a vid, sounds cool

EDIT: today is my birthday btw

Blaze924 said:

awesome, i really want to see a vid, sounds cool

EDIT: today is my birthday btw

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HAPPY BIRTHDAY BLAZE!! :D

so, as it stands now:

if you start the combo on wario at 0 percent:

(maybe the very first jab after the grab release>AC Dair may be escapable, as the said hitstun may not yet occur, although it still seems to work from 0 percent, so maybe this combo is really inescable starting when wario has around 15%)
grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab>grab release>AC Dair>(buffer turnaround if needed)>jab>grab - at this point the opponent wario will have around 51 %, wich is the time he'll start beeing able to techroll/maybe roll away before you can jab, so if you want to be safe, you grab release>sweet knee at this point, wich'll set the opponent wario to 70% damage.
If you want to continue, the opponent might be able to techroll or roll away before your jab, so you'll have to be ready to techchase if needed. If you choose this way, you can keep this combo going till you think it's enough (probably when the opponent wario is at a percent that the grab release>sweet knee will KO him)

and if you also use grab hits, it takes fewer regrabs before the grab release>sweet knee is fatal

I did some testing on a human player, and here are the results:

At lower percents, wario can up before you jab, but at around 15% it starts to work really well
It is best to only jab once everytime because:
1 they could maybe DI too far away for you to regrab during 2 jabs
2 if the opponent techs after the Dair, the jab misses, but the grab will punish the tech, making you able to continue the combo

It is pretty much inescapable from around 20 - 51 percent
and it is possible to infinite an opponent with this if you perfectly techchase each time when needed

so this is a pretty good strategy against wario, as escaping it is difficult as a techchase could let you regrab them.

Sometimes, if you don't jab cancel correctly I guess, they can DI away after one jab. But as far as I tested, if you jab cancel and buffer turnaround>jab when needed, this is pretty much inescapable

feel free to test this yourself to make sure though, as I could have overseen something while testing, but I don't think so, so as it stands now, it works :D

Hmmmmmm....

From what I read, it is pretty escapable. Maybe change the title :S

Face124 said:

Hmmmmmm....

From what I read, it is pretty escapable. Maybe change the title :S

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if performed correctly it is a 0-death combo or 15-death
but I may change it later..

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

if performed correctly it is a 0-death combo or 15-death
but I may change it later..

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But you can't read an opponents tech consistently.

illinialex24 said:

But you can't read an opponents tech consistently.

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but they can't predict your prediction consistently

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

but they can't predict your prediction consistently

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No but they don't have to. They just have to tech and you shouldn't make the correct choice more than 33% of the time.

I'd like to see this tech-reading in action.

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

but they can't predict your prediction consistently

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No offense, but you can't really base a true combo off prediction. He has options so its escapable. Its like saying dash attack to U-air is a true combo. If they do nothing, SH u-air. If they jump full hop u-air, and if they jump more than once you use your second jump. If they AD you wait then SH u-air. If they attack you shiled then U-air. Doesn't really work.

Face124 said:

No offense, but you can't really base a true combo off prediction. He has options so its escapable. Its like saying dash attack to U-air is a true combo. If they do nothing, SH u-air. If they jump full hop u-air, and if they jump more than once you use your second jump. If they AD you wait then SH u-air. If they attack you shiled then U-air. Doesn't really work.

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CG as close to the edge as possible, then when your around that tech percent whip out a Knee, go for the Flubbed Knee -> Rising Uair Gimp
could work..

Player-3 said:

CG as close to the edge as possible, then when your around that tech percent whip out a Knee, go for the Flubbed Knee -> Rising Uair Gimp
could work..

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Tech percent? And that wouldn't work, considering Wario could EASILY recover from that height. They have to be recovering low-ish for the flub'd knee to u-air to work. Wario would still be above the main platform after that, and he has good recovery. I think if this worked to the edge, your best bet would be to GR > raptor boost to spike him, because the d-air will be weaker from damage depreciation.

Face124 said:

No offense, but you can't really base a true combo off prediction. He has options so its escapable. Its like saying dash attack to U-air is a true combo. If they do nothing, SH u-air. If they jump full hop u-air, and if they jump more than once you use your second jump. If they AD you wait then SH u-air. If they attack you shiled then U-air. Doesn't really work.

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this is different
this puts the opponent in a position with limited options, options that one can predict.
he only has 3 options that are more difficult to forsee

a roll is easily dashgrabbed
if he just stands up a grab'll punish

only techchase>techchase is harder

no offence but this is different tahn DA>Uair

and also, a vid will be up soon so you can see how it's done and that it is a very handy thing to do against a wario opponent

Face124 said:

No offense, but you can't really base a true combo off prediction. He has options so its escapable. Its like saying dash attack to U-air is a true combo. If they do nothing, SH u-air. If they jump full hop u-air, and if they jump more than once you use your second jump. If they AD you wait then SH u-air. If they attack you shiled then U-air. Doesn't really work.

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Exactly. I think there is a line, that is that if you can read the opponent, they have to commit and then you make a move is a true combo, but if involves guessing, then it isn't. Anticipating a tech is not a true combo.

This is interesting and all, but I think I have to agree with illinialex. It can't be considered a real combo if they can escape it in some way. Sure, you may be able to predict what they do, but the fact that there's a chance they can escape makes it not a true combo. Either way, this should still be a good strategy to use against Warios...

LinIsKorean said:

This is interesting and all, but I think I have to agree with illinialex. It can't be considered a real combo if they can escape it in some way. Sure, you may be able to predict what they do, but the fact that there's a chance they can escape makes it not a true combo. Either way, this should still be a good strategy to use against Warios...

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Yeah, my main focus is on the fact that you have to guess on the tech. If you could 100% anticipate techs and punish them for it (i.e., there weren't techs and you were anticipating rolls), then it might be very useful

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:

this is different
this puts the opponent in a position with limited options, options that one can predict.

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But not options that one will predict. That is my point.

illinialex24 said:

Exactly. I think there is a line, that is that if you can read the opponent, they have to commit and then you make a move is a true combo, but if involves guessing, then it isn't. Anticipating a tech is not a true combo.

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LinIsKorean said:

This is interesting and all, but I think I have to agree with illinialex. It can't be considered a real combo if they can escape it in some way. Sure, you may be able to predict what they do, but the fact that there's a chance they can escape makes it not a true combo. Either way, this should still be a good strategy to use against Warios...

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illinialex24 said:

Yeah, my main focus is on the fact that you have to guess on the tech. If you could 100% anticipate techs and punish them for it (i.e., there weren't techs and you were anticipating rolls), then it might be very useful

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Face124 said:

But not options that one will predict. That is my point.

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you guys are aware it is really inescapable from around 15 till around 50 percent right from what I tested (wich sets wario on around 70 percent if knee'd at this time)
it is explained in the OP

and I will agree guessing doesn't make true combo's, but that's not what I was saying. it is a real combo, just not on all percents.
from around 50 and from 0 - 15 it's a matter of techchase/punish.
it is a CG, and a good strategy even at the percents it isn't a 'real' combo

Is this what you were thinking of, man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV-PZel_iGE
It does seem to have nice potential for a 0%(0r 15%) to 70% combo.

Now then, the question becomes: Can humans escape from this(before techable percents) even if Falcon times and spaces everything perfectly? I meant to test and maybe get a vid earlier today with my bro, but never got the chance. So for now, we're going off of ToKnee's word, it seems.

Wow could something like this make falcon vs wario a not hard matchup? Cause I mean a 0-death definately isnt a bad thing. Depends on if its consistent I guess. Well maybe not if he can escape it before death, but this certainly would help for warios.

a good wario will make it hard to pull that off on. but yes the guaranteed knee will definitely help with killing wario.

SecretofMana said:

Is this what you were thinking of, man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV-PZel_iGE
It does seem to have nice potential for a 0%(0r 15%) to 70% combo.

Now then, the question becomes: Can humans escape from this(before techable percents) even if Falcon times and spaces everything perfectly? I meant to test and maybe get a vid earlier today with my bro, but never got the chance. So for now, we're going off of ToKnee's word, it seems.

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yes, what is done in the vid is the idea
only I buffer turnaround the jab and it looks like he executes it slower (could be just me, and I don't think it makes any difference anyway)

but anyway, Blaze is working on uploading the vid of me doing this, so the vid should be up very soon

Edit: the allisbrawl forum got it from me, so why is the vid referring to allisbrawl and not smashboards?

Whoops. I referred to this thread originally, but used arrows in describing the combo, so the description wasn't saved(because apparently -> has some special meaning on Youtube...?). I kinda rushed it the second time around, so I didn't really pay much attention to what I was writing and then linking. Sorry about that.

And yeah, this was my first time trying to do anything related to grab canceling, so I don't really have the timing down yet. I can understand it would be slower. The main idea was to get this on video so that people would have something to refer to such as to simplify your description.

SecretofMana said:

Whoops. I referred to this thread originally, but used arrows in describing the combo, so the description wasn't saved(because apparently -> has some special meaning on Youtube...?). I kinda rushed it the second time around, so I didn't really pay much attention to what I was writing and then linking. Sorry about that.

And yeah, this was my first time trying to do anything related to grab canceling, so I don't really have the timing down yet. I can understand it would be slower. The main idea was to get this on video so that people would have something to refer to such as to simplify your description.

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oh I see, no problem man

oh I wasn't attacking you man, I was just saying that it could maybe be executed slightly faster

and for what I bolded in what I quoted from you, I thank you very much :D
still, a vid of my own will be up soon if all goes acoording to plan, but still thank you very much for visualizing my description with a vid

Holy crap thats amazing xD.
Btw, @ the people saying this isnt a combo because its techable: In melee, sheik could dthrow CG pika to high percents, then fair to death. This was an unescapable 0-death. However, Pichu could DI in 3 ways, not DIing, Diing to the right, and DIing to the left. However, it was still a "combo" because Shiek could react fast enough to simply regrab. Its the same case in brawl, with falcon CG on wario, because wario's techrool really isnt too fast, and Im sure there will eventually be a player with fast enough reflexes who can pull this off flawlessly enough to make it a real threat to warios. Btw, just for the exampke of shiek / pichu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV4SjTp_U1A

Of course, all this is just theory, so yeah =P.

oh yeah, one more example: Fox versus marf in melee of FD, marth gets a grab, and its still a combo even though fox can DI out of the attacks, Marth can react fast enough to follow it up.

And, if this is a legit combo, I will personally pick up falcon just for wario. xDDD

Megavitamins said:

Holy crap thats amazing xD.
Btw, @ the people saying this isnt a combo because its techable: In melee, sheik could dthrow CG pika to high percents, then fair to death. This was an unescapable 0-death. However, Pichu could DI in 3 ways, not DIing, Diing to the right, and DIing to the left. However, it was still a "combo" because Shiek could react fast enough to simply regrab. Its the same case in brawl, with falcon CG on wario, because wario's techrool really isnt too fast, and Im sure there will eventually be a player with fast enough reflexes who can pull this off flawlessly enough to make it a real threat to warios. Btw, just for the exampke of shiek / pichu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV4SjTp_U1A

Of course, all this is just theory, so yeah =P.

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Its a tech though so I am fairly sure it isn't predictable. Ie, he can't see what the opponent will do until it is too late. That's the key difference.

Eh, i think its possible to react in time, but we wont know unless people try to apply this in real matches. =).