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Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

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The Halloween Captain

The Halloween Captain

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For a while immediately after the game's release, people thought Brawl was more balanced than melee. Then Yuna started a thread on it and destroyed all the balance arguements. Then the thread was closed b/c it wasn't going anywhere. Then it was discovered that Brawl has a large number of stand-alone characters, characters that you can main with no secondary.

Sadaharu Inui said:
No secondary is required to win a large tournament with Snake, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Falco, Dedede, Game and Watch, or Marth.
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Sadaharu Inui said:
I am completely convinced that secondaries are not necessary. He loses nothing worse than 40/60 and has the tools to beat any character if you are good enough.

I'm also beginning to think that ZSS, Kirby, Lucario, and DK can win tournaments without secondaries.

Too many characters are underrated and MK is overrated.

MK is only easy to learn because he's good and because his metagame has been developed massively by top players like Mew2King, Omni, and Forte. The other characters need top players to start developing them to the same degree.
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Thoughts on the current game balance?

@mods: please don't close this unless it devolves into a flame war, there is a lot to talk about that hasn't been addressed in the last thread because it wasn't known at the time.
 
kevinw0w

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DRaGZ said:
Why does it even matter?
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It's brawl discussion. If you don't think it matters, then get out.

No, brawl is horribly broken. Much more than melee.

Snake is the new fox, and MK is broken as hell.

Easy to learn too, unlike fox who takes conditioning to master. And don't tell me MK is hard to use, because he's not. Just spam your moves. That's all you have to do. Attack fast, attack furiously.
 
brinboy789

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i believe brawl is more balanced as of now, because in melee it was revolving around only 5 chars, with occasionally other ones, but mostly 5 chars. we have yet to have that scenario in brawl. however, in the future, that might arise
 
Nic64

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And don't tell me MK is hard to use, because he's not. Just spam your moves. That's all you have to do. Attack fast, attack furiously.
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stupid play can work on stupid players, enough said.
 
The Halloween Captain

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By the way,

@future Yuna:

At the time, I was wrong. When Brawl was new and you were arguing it was less balanced than melee, you were right.

But times change. *insert insulting comment here while apologizing for being wrong :laugh:*

:093:
 
ShadowLink84

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brinboy789 said:
i believe brawl is more balanced as of now, because in melee it was revolving around only 5 chars, with occasionally other ones, but mostly 5 chars. we have yet to have that scenario in brawl. however, in the future, that might arise
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Um, melee had better balanced matchups than Brawl did actually, and the matchups didn't matter as much as they do now. Once you have a system that is omore heavily influenced by whom you pick, then it is obviously less balanced.
 
§leepy God

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Man, the first thread of this had some heat. It was so many people mad that people said the game is balance, and the other side that said it was unbalance was threaded nicely, lol. But like I've said in that last old thread, there is no chracter in Brawl I know that is as weak as Pichu, meaning no chracter has no impossable match ups against anybody. Though I explaned more, I don't feel like it right now for some reason.
 
B

BentoBox

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Melee had a manly tier, but no steak/masked puffball tiers. It all balances out!

The Sleepy One said:
Man, the first thread of this had some heat. It was so many people mad that people said the game is balance, and the other side that said it was unbalance was threaded nicely, lol. But like I've said in that last old thread, there is no chracter in Brawl I know that is as weak as Pichu, meaning no chracter has no impossable match ups against anybody. Though I explaned more, I don't feel like it right now for some reason.
Click to expand...
False.
 
B0mbe1c

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Brawl has some broken tactics and broken characters. Not to mention some characters were buffed/nerfed for the worse. :(
 
BEES

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There are impossible matchups in Brawl. Dedede is responsible for most of them. This is nothing new though. Most of Mewtwo's matchups were around 2:8 or 1:9. If you played someone who had experience fighting Mewtwo, it was impossible.

Captain Falcon still goes 4:6 against much of the cast, making him legitimately playable, (though he is likely not going to remain bottom-tier for long).
 
K

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Smash people don't really make the matchup ratios true matchup ratios. They just randomly pull out number out of their *** depending on how difficult it is to **** the other character and just smack it there on the matchup list.

Example : 6:4 is 'Easy to ****', 7:3 'Very easy to ****' and 8:2 is 'Easy as pie'
 
OverLade

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I'm beggining to believe that even with Metaknight brawl is far more balanced than Melee. Metaknight isn't as unbeatable as people think, a lot of it is just a lot of really good players using him. If good players choose to use Metaknight, then good players using other characters get less exposure.

I think just EVERYONE is underrated.
 
TKD+ITA+Mar=

TKD+ITA+Mar=

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I disagree with the second quote, I do not believe DK can be used as a standalone character. [D3]

I really hope it was written before the chaingrab was discovered.
 
Falconv1.0

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The Sleepy One said:
Which chracters have an impossible match up in Brawl? I just need to know due to me not being a fan of match up's and I don't feel like thinking right now.
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You know if you dont even know much about match ups you prolly shouldn't argue none aren't winnable. Characters who can be infinite chain grabbed by D3 lose. It's not even funny, the better player will lose if the enemy uses DDD.
 
CR4SH

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ROFL inui thinks you coul (even possibly, lol) play dk without a secondary? Really? REALLY?

I guess d3 doesn't exist.
 
E

Eternal phoenix Fire

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The Sleepy One said:
Which chracters have an impossible match up in Brawl? I just need to know due to me not being a fan of match up's and I don't feel like thinking right now.
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Link vs. MK
Ganon vs MK
Captain Falcon vs MK
Luigi vs D3
Link vs D3
Ganon vs Kirby
Link vs Kirby
Wolf vs MK
Any character with a bad recovery vs MK

And generally, anyone but MK vs MK is an uneven match up.

And Brawl isn't balanced in the least. It's playing mechanics are extremely defense oriented and flawed. And to specify some.

-Inescapable CG's and some CG's that can't be escaped until certain percentages.
-Brick wall tactics such as Tornado vs many moves
-Characters strengths are based off natural selection. Character potential is stagnant.
-MK is dominant over every other character.
-Broken hit boxes that extend greatly beyond physical character
-Stage spiking.
-Inescapable grab releases
-Difficult to get around projectile zoning.
-Very little lag in between dodging
-Little to no punishment game
-Biased character development

Brawl, itself, is flawed as a fighting game. And Sakurai blatantly shows that he had no initiative to make this game a balanced fighter. It's a party game with fighting aesthetics. I have said this far too many times.
 
Tenki

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Eternal phoenix Fire said:
Link vs. MK
Ganon vs MK
Captain Falcon vs MK
Luigi vs D3
Link vs D3
Ganon vs Kirby
Link vs Kirby
Wolf vs MK
Any character with a bad recovery vs MK

And generally, anyone but MK vs MK is an uneven match up.

And Brawl isn't balanced in the least. It's playing mechanics are extremely defense oriented and flawed. And to specify some.

-Inescapable CG's and some CG's that can't be escaped until certain percentages.
-Brick wall tactics such as Tornado vs many moves
-Characters strengths are based off natural selection. Character potential is stagnant. [?]
-MK is dominant over every other character. Arguably there are neutrals, at high level of play, where it matters, right?
-Broken hit boxes that extend greatly beyond physical character I'm going to assume that the posterchild for this is Snake. Fight Snake enough times and you'll just know his range so it's not too much different than having to deal with someone disjoint like Marth lol.
-Stage spiking. Tech. the. wall. High level play? Certainly a viable tactic.
-Inescapable grab releases
-Difficult to get around projectile zoning. Is it a problem in higher levels?
-Very little lag in between dodging Still punishable.
-Little to no punishment game Sonic. Come on, his stength is best seen in punishment! ;/
Also, considering that the game is 'defense oriented', then the whole game is a punishment game.
-Biased character development

Brawl, itself, is flawed as a fighting game. And Sakurai blatantly shows that he had no initiative to make this game a balanced fighter. It's a party game with fighting aesthetics. I have said this far too many times.
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Tornado isn't a complete brick wall. You just need a bit of quickness and tech skill to punish it, whether it's DI+counteraerial or shielding and punishing OoS.

Sure, you can be exaggerating, but even Falcon vs MK isn't a complete throwaway :3
Reflex (Falcon) vs Desu (MK)

Make of it and devalue it as you will, but it's still a tourney match near the end of the tourney.
 
Deathcarter

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People who always support Melee always state that Melee's advanced techniques made the game more balanced. That, IMO, was an illusion of balance. Yes, wavedashing, dashdancing, foxtroting, l-canceling, etc. gave the low tiers some options, but they gave the high tier characters more options several times fold. We thought it was more balanced because the low tier players was given more options against the high tier players, but the high tier player had exponentially more options to use in a match. Think of it like the high tier player having 10 options as opposed to the low tier's 4 options in a Melee match, whereas in Brawl, the high tier player has 5 options as opposed to the opponents 2. What makes Shiek v Bowser in Melee any better than DDD v Luigi in Brawl? They are both hopeless one sided matchups that are almost impossible to win in a competetive match.

As far as the amount of viable characters in each game goes, you have 4 characters dominating and 4 others who would see noticable action in Melee. In Brawl, you have 2 characters dominating, but a lot more characters seeing action. Yes, Brawl has 2 characters making major strides in the metagame, but pretty much every other character in top and high tier and half of mid tier who see regular use (Do realize that the reason that MK see so much use is because he is a brick wall to most players. Meta Knight does not destroy anybody in top or high tier, it is just that most other characters' metagames have not develop effective counter strategies against him. So he is currently a very effective tool.). It is a trade off between haing more dominant characters and few second class characters or having less dominant characters, but more second class characters.

The only thing I could see that makes Melee more balanced than Brawl is that high and mid tiers have impossible matchups (Fox, DK, Wario, Wolf) unlike Melee. But do know that NO character above the low tier except Ike gets ***** by the majority of the top tier. Assuming no secondaries, you can go through the entire tournament without running into a **** matchup for your character given luck and that the number of players for each top tier character is relatively even (and if you are going to mention Meta Knight, he ***** only about 7 top/high/mid tier characters: Pit, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Ike, Shiek, and maybe Peach out of 26.)

But do note that Brawl is not balanced. It is just that Melee is unbalanced as hell despite all of its depth.
 
MorphedChaos

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Tenki said:
Tornado isn't a complete brick wall. You just need a bit of quickness and tech skill to punish it, whether it's DI+counteraerial or shielding and punishing OoS.

Sure, you can be exaggerating, but even Falcon vs MK isn't a complete throwaway :3
Reflex (Falcon) vs Desu (MK)

Make of it and devalue it as you will, but it's still a tourney match near the end of the tourney.
Click to expand...
OMG, MOST EPIC THING EVER! That right there could make someone go from pro ban to anti ban for MK, I swear. Thats just amazing.
 
Falconv1.0

Falconv1.0

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MorphedChaos said:
OMG, MOST EPIC THING EVER! That right there could make someone go from pro ban to anti ban for MK, I swear. Thats just amazing.
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Or you could give a reasonable argument showing how multiple characters give him trouble and anyone *****ing about him is either using a character who sucks against him or just plain sucks.
 
MorphedChaos

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Eh, All I know is I can beat the MKs in my region with D3, I should try Sonic out, There is no sonics in my area actually, so it would be very hard to comp against.
 
The Halloween Captain

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Falconv1.0 said:
Or you could give a reasonable argument showing how multiple characters give him trouble and anyone *****ing about him is either using a character who sucks against him or just plain sucks.
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No, Tenki's video arguement was more effective than a reasonable arguement.

Arguements don't work as well as example.

Watch as this picture proves my point, via the reaction people have to it:



If you want to make a point, videos and pretty pictures are often more effective than logic. In Tenki's case, he mixed videos with logic, which leads to auto:

 
Falconv1.0

Falconv1.0

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The Halloween Captain said:
No, Tenki's video arguement was more effective than a reasonable arguement.

Arguements don't work as well as example.

Watch as this picture proves my point, via the reaction people have to it:



If you want to make a point, videos and pretty pictures are often more effective than logic. In Tenki's case, he mixed videos with logic, which leads to auto:

Click to expand...
I was giving another example, not shooting his case down lol.

Images>wurds
 
Tenki

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Falconv1.0 said:
Or you could give a reasonable argument showing how multiple characters give him trouble and anyone *****ing about him is either using a character who sucks against him or just plain sucks.
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lol

Here's what generally happens:
- Snake can do well against Metaknight! "Oh yeah? well how come there aren't tons of Snakes winning tournaments??"
- Yoshi can do okay against Metaknight! "Yeah? How come noone's winning tourneys with Yoshi???"

it's basically like that all the way down.

Overall, I think part of it is because player skill tends to not be up to par (ex: even if player Y is okay with Yoshi, player X is still the better player and using Metaknight, so he wins) - or maybe matchups really aren't as neutral as expected.

Anyway, back to that video, I think Desu is a D3 player ??.

Like most people, if his main loses first round, he transforms into MK, which is what that video was. I don't know if his choices in-game as a Metaknight were on par with choices an MK main might have made, but either way, it's a common situation (main loses, transforms into MK, like power rangers except with MK instead of a giant monster), and he handles it well even as Falcon.


Falconv1.0 said:
I was giving another example, not shooting his case down lol.

Images>wurds
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That graffiti picture was funny.

Oh yeah, and videos >> words sometimes. You tell someone to 'get better' to counter things like Tornado or Shuttle Loop or D-smash, and people are like "bububububut every1 says that! i spent x months learning my main and 1 week with metaknight and i'm already doing better with mk! see its because he has lagless dsmash and lagless tornado and shuttleloop is over powered!11"

Seriously, I saw Anther posting stuff about how you can just release shield right away then chase after tornado, but I didn't understand just how effective that is until I saw him pull it off with Pikachu. And if Pikachu can punish it, Sonic can punish it, so after getting frame data that solidified it, I started advocating OoS punishments for Sonic lol.

edit:
that said, someone go make videos on how to deal with simple MK behavior. MK clears out scrubs and people who don't know how to fight MK - it's a simple-win solution, but it's those people who complain the most about MK. I guess you can make it harder for them to "auto-win" by showing them how to counter simple MK movements lol. If people go to MK for an easy-win situation, might as well teach people how to counter it?
 
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