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How to Appropriately Punish MetaKnight : A Marth Guide *Finished!*

_Kadaj_

_Kadaj_

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Intro.

"Alot of the problem that I see when people are facing MetaKnight is that they don't know how to appropriately and effectively punish his Attacks. The reason for this guide being created is for all Marths mains to learn how to punish MetaKnight when you are in these type of situations."

On another note Perfect Shielding was not taking in account because of it's situational nature.

  • I. Out Of Shield
  • II. Standing In a Neutral Position
  • III. When MetaKnight Is on the Edge

I. Out Of Shield

MK's Down Smash

To Effectively Punish MK's Down Smash out of shield, you have Five options at Non-tipper Range.

At Tipper Range your options are not as vast. and you must use extreme precision when doing these moves. Remember when in this position you MUST NOT hesitate or you may end up failing to punish MK for his Attack.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Jab (1st hit only)
  • 4. Dancing Blabe (Side B)
  • 5. Shield Grab

Tipper-Range
  • 1. JC Forward Air
  • 2. Down Smash

MK's Forward Tilt

Ideally what you want to happen is that MK does all Three hits of the Forward Tilt. BUT if he does NOT then Your Best options are to either Shield Grab or Dolphin Slash.
With that being said im going to tell you your optimum punishing options after the third hit of MK's forward tilt.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Jab (1st hit only)
  • 4. Dancing Blabe (Side B)[/B]
  • 5. Shield Grab
  • 6. JC Forward Air

Tipper-Range
  • 1. JC Forward Air
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Running Grab
  • 4. Shield Drop Dancing Blade

MK's Down Tilt

It is very imperative that you use one of these moves AS Soon AS POSSIBLE! if you fail to do so then you will fail to punish this move.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Shield Grab
  • 3. JC Forward Air

Tipper-Range
  • 1. JC Forward Air

MK's Forward Smash

Do not be fooled by the appearance of this move it is fast than it looks. To punish this move effectively you must do as all of the previous moves and react quickly because of the minimum cool down time this move has.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. JC Forward Air
  • 4. Shield Grab
  • 5.Dancing Blade

Tipper-Range
  • None to my knowledge as of yet


MK's Tornado

I'm pretty sure you all know the best approach by now to stopping MK's Tornado out of shield.
At tipper range tho it would be best not to try and punish from out of your shield but to try and punish AFTERWARDS would be a better choice.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)

MK's Drill Rush

As this move would probably never be used in this situation it is some what note worthy. As I said before about the tornado it is not in your best interest to try and punish this move from a NON-tipper range than from Tipper Range.

Non-Tipper Range

  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)


MK's Shuttle Loop

You Cant Exactly punish this move from this position and the MK goes into a continuation of a glide attack.

MK's Glide Attack Post-Shuttle Loop

See above Move


Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash

Tipper-Range
  • 1. JC Forward Air

MK's Dash Attack

Punishing MK's dash attack can be tricky because not only is it Move Dependent but it is also dependent on the opponents position as well.

This move is NOT to be punished From Tipper Range but if in the event that it is your best options would be to either Down Smash or Shield Grab.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Shield Grab
  • 4. Dancing Blade

MK's Forward Air

The Best move to try and punish MK's Forward Air with wold be a JC Forward Air


MK's Down Air

Something ALL MK's love to do. The proper term of what they would probably be doing would be called " D-air Camping"

Non-Tipper Range & Tipper-Range

  • 1. JC Up Air *very space dependent
  • 2. JC F-air *very space dependent


MK's Neutral Air

Punishing this should be fairly easy and as a result you will only see MK's using this move to punish out of THEIR shield.

Non-Tipper Range
  • 1. Dolphin Slash (Up-B)
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Dancing Blade

Tipper-Range
  • 1.Down Smash
  • 2. Dancing Blade
  • 3. JC Forward Air

" That pretty much sums up you can punish out of shield now I'll move onto what you can punish from Standing in a Neutral Position"

II. Standing In a Neutral Position

"There is only a limited amount of MK's moves that should be punished from this position. Again you might want to keep in mind that if your not at tipper range in this position your probably getting hit."

MK's Down Smash

Tipper-Range
  • 1. SH Forward Air
  • 2. Down Smash
  • 3. Jab (1st hit only)

MK's F-air

Tipper-Range
  • 1. Jab (1st hit only)

MK's Shuttle Loop Pre Glide-Attack
"When he is coming down to hit you with the glide attack and not the essential Up-B."

Tipper-Range
  • 1. Jab (1st hit only)

"Keep in Mind that after hitting MK with the Jab there are many things that can happen.
1.The Jab and glide attack each other, afterwards you could go into a Dolphin Slash, Grab or Down Smash.
2.If you actually hit him out of the attack you could go into a Dancing Blade afterwards."

MK's F-tilt

Tipper-Range
"This is if he does the last hit. Which would be the best option to try and punish."
  • 1. Dancing Blade

"Aside From F-smashing MK's Tornado or Countering his Drill Rush There isn't much of anything that you can really punish before he has a chance to do something else."

III. When MetaKnight Is on the Edge

ATTENTION!!!!! This is what Helps you WIN! Punishing him for trying to Come up with an attack off the edge! Just REMEMBER if he doesn't attack you should know how to punish these methods by now. If not there are a wide variety of threads that you can find this information in under ZMT's lists of Marth Guides."

" Take in consideration that YOU should NOT be right in front of the edge while attempting to punish MK. Therefore I won't list if it is to be at Tipper range or not."

MK's F-air

***Keep in Mind that all of these are very space dependent. For you and the MK

1. Jab (1st hit only)
2. F-air
3. F-tilt


MK's Tornado

1. Counter
2. Dolphin Slash
3. F-Smash

*Dolphin Slash Should be used within your shield.


MK's Shuttle Loop Pre-Glide Attack

1. Up-Air *You have to run under him IMMEDIATELY AFTER he does Shuttle Loop
2. Jab (1st hit only)
*Refer to what I said earlier about when the Jab clanks (cancels the glide attack) an when you knock him out of it.

"That's all I can think of for right now if you have any questions post them and I'll answer them accordingly, and expediently. If there is any thing I missed or didn't add feel free to tell me and I'll test it out and see if it works or not. If there's any move that you would've liked to see and didn't let me know and I'll add it or figure out if it can actually be punished with what and I'll get back to you.

Thanks for reading........
 
ZHMT

ZHMT

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Good stuff so far, Im looking forward to 'MK on the ledge' punishment, cause Im having trouble there. Also I totally agree on DONT hesitate, doing so really does limit you chance to punish greatly.
 
feardragon64

feardragon64

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Kadaj your worthless. No pictures.

Nice =b. Looks good for the most part. One other useful section might be punishing from max range(basically a whiff) where you didn't shield. Also, punishing from spotdodge might be useful too...for the moves that let you X_X

lol if I feel up to it I might get the pictures done next week...maybe...
 
_Kadaj_

_Kadaj_

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feardragon64 said:
Kadaj your worthless. No pictures.

Nice =b. Looks good for the most part. One other useful section might be punishing from max range(basically a whiff) where you didn't shield. Also, punishing from spotdodge might be useful too...for the moves that let you X_X

lol if I feel up to it I might get the pictures done next week...maybe...
Click to expand...
Lol i'll continue to work on it the times i can

TLMSheikant said:
Kadaj thanks for this thread. Looking forward to mk on the edge too.
Click to expand...
no problem i should have alot of it done tomorrow

pics will be inserted as they are given i guess. just send them to me in a pm
 
M-mo3

M-mo3

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This is helpful for marth's who dont know how to punish mk. on the side not, this could go hand to hand with Havok's get **** thread. Pennut butter and jelly yummmm
 
Tomato Kirby

Tomato Kirby

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As a recent Marth/Meta-Knight main, this guide saves me the trouble of losing countless matches figuring out what to do when I play Marth and what Marth will do I play Meta Knight.

Thanks, _kadaj_.
 
V

VietGeek

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I like this thread.

Maybe I won't suck at Smash, get an education, a high-paying career doing what I love, and live in luxury in early retirement.

All thanks to you.
 
Pr0phetic

Pr0phetic

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For Neutral position, if you throw an Nair and they dodge, you can land a tipper Fsmash sometimes, im not sure how much % of the time.

Im not sure if this fits your format for Neutral since it based on MK attacking in neutral.
 
ZHMT

ZHMT

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Shuttle loop is pretty much unpunishable. Its unsafe and pretty dumb to challenge MK when he is gliding and the glide attack comes out on frame 5 iirc, with insane priority, and not enough lag to punish safely, (if at all). I assume you can hit MK with a fair after he is risen in the first part of his shuttle loop but its pretty lucky and unsafe anyways...
 
Ulevo

Ulevo

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zelda_master_timmy said:
Shuttle loop is pretty much unpunishable. Its unsafe and pretty dumb to challenge MK when he is gliding and the glide attack comes out on frame 5 iirc, with insane priority, and not enough lag to punish safely, (if at all). I assume you can hit MK with a fair after he is risen in the first part of his shuttle loop but its pretty lucky and unsafe anyways...
Click to expand...
Shuttle Loop is quite punishable. Just run underneath the loop and hit him from below with USmash, Uair or Utilt if you walked underneath while he's gliding. You really have no reason to challenge it head on when he's put in a vulnerable state like this.

I'm also quite sure you can punish safely with DS OOS, or a simple Jab will suffice. If they Glide Attack, it clanks, you hit them. If they drop, you hit them. Win win.
 
ZHMT

ZHMT

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Ulevo said:
Shuttle Loop is quite punishable. Just run underneath the loop and hit him from below with USmash, Uair or Utilt if you walked underneath while he's gliding. You really have no reason to challenge it head on when he's put in a vulnerable state like this.

I'm also quite sure you can punish safely with DS OOS, or a simple Jab will suffice. If they Glide Attack, it clanks, you hit them. If they drop, you hit them. Win win.
Click to expand...
To run underneath the loop, you really have to predict him to use it, almost before it starts. Im not saying its impossible to do what you said. Im saying, Its too quick to notice the move, and react at the same time, every time he does it. Its really unsafe still, by the time you get under him, he will be safely to the side of you.

The Glide attack is punishable with DS oos like any other non-grab like move. The only problem is you have to be careful because if you mistime the up b, and the MK attacks your shield with the glide attack, it may push you out of range and youll whiff completely. Now you wide open to any of MK's moves.
 
Pierce7d

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You can always immediately aerial DB1 OOS to punish a shield SL. I tested if you can Fair or Uair, but I forgot my results (I think you can run under and Uair, or Bair, but perhaps not Fair), because both of these options are obselete to Hyphen Smashing MK. The only way he can avoid this is to glide past you without diving at all, something MKs are never smart enough to do, because they love whoring out that Glide attack.

Also, OOS, ftilt is better than dtilt. It comes out faster, since you don't have to account for crouching (I could be mistaken about this though.)
 
kpeezy

kpeezy

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Pierce7d said:
Also, OOS, ftilt is better than dtilt. It comes out faster, since you don't have to account for crouching (I could be mistaken about this though.)
Click to expand...
You don't have to crouch to do a Dtilt (maybe I'm misunderstanding you). That said, I still don't know which comes out faster.
 
Steel

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You don't have to account for crouching when you dtilt. Just tilt your control stick down without going too far(or else you'll crouch) and just dtilt. It will be a nice quick 7 frames.
 
Saltix

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I feel like such a scrub when asking this, but at least I'm trying to get better right? :p
Well anyways, I do play Marth quite frequently, I haven't heard the term "JC Forward Air" before.

I'm guessing it stands for "Jump Canceled Fair"?
How do you do it?
 
Fitty

Fitty

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nice point steel2nd but that would take some practice i rather crouch but good suggestion.
 
D

DJMirror

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hey Kadaj i saw this vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cki84ec9D98

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL MINDGAMES HAHAHAHAHA XD

BlackG got hella pissed at ya for that


while back on Topic: hmm thanks for the guide and stuff but does marth have a grab release on MK? if so what can i do beside using a tipped Fair?

double edit: This should be sticky imo
 
BanjoKazooiePro

BanjoKazooiePro

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Am I the only one who counters when I play a whorenado spammer? Countering is usually the best option in my opinion. Wait till you know your counter range will hit and let it rip. Works like a charm for me. Otherwise, yes, it's easiest to just wait and punish after. Well written guide.
 
Schwaumlaut

Schwaumlaut

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zelda_master_timmy said:
Shuttle loop is pretty much unpunishable. Its unsafe and pretty dumb to challenge MK when he is gliding and the glide attack comes out on frame 5 iirc, with insane priority, and not enough lag to punish safely, (if at all). I assume you can hit MK with a fair after he is risen in the first part of his shuttle loop but its pretty lucky and unsafe anyways...
Click to expand...
Doesn't Counter come out on frame 4? Add to that the fact that he can't do very many different attacks out of gliding, and I feel like glides are one of the best times to counter.
 
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