A Guide to Common PK Thunder "Mindgames"

xoxokev · Dec 17, 2008

A Guide to Common PK Thunder "Mindgames"
So, you want to be flashy with Ness? This guide will teach you how!

RED = HOT! Anything that's in RED should be taken advantage of. These will score you most of your "mindgame" kills!
ORANGE = NEW

*Please wait for all the images to load

Ref's PK Thunder Demonstration Video
*Watch this

Some Stuff You Should Already Know About PK Thunder
...but if you don't, you should read this:

PKT = PK Thunder (duh)
PKT2 is when you hit yourself with PKT (duh, again)
PKT can go through some platforms
Any platform you can jump through, your PKT can go through (ONLY from the BOTTOM)
Ness' PKT is a lot faster than Lucas' and can be turned in sharper angles
Both the head and tail of PKT can be reflected/absorbed
PKT has invincibility frame the moment the tail leaves the top of Ness' head (shared by Tyr_03)
PKT2 has invincibility frames at the beginning of PKT2
Damage/knock back of PKT2 is inversely related to how far Ness has to travel before hitting the opponent, or item. The closer you are, the more damage/knock back you inflict.
PKT2 can sweet spot the ledge
PKT2 does not travel as far if Ness hits an opponent during the first half of PKT2
Also if Ness is hit by a projectile at an angle that is not parallel during the first half of PKT2 (shared by Tyr_03)
The direction of PKT2 is determined by where PKT hits Ness' body

The Head

Hitting your opponent with the head of PKT will usually "pop" them up, and in the direction your PKT came from
Does more damage than hitting with the tail
The head can be used to "shield scrape" (shared by Tyr_03; later enlightened by Gaussis )
The head does 8% damage to an opponent

The Tail

Hitting with the tail will stun your opponent, and will NOT "pop" them up
Take advantage of tail whipping when trying to gimp your opponent
The tail can be used to "shield scrape"
The tail has UNLIMITED priority
The tail does 1% damage each time a part of it hits an opponent

Shield Scraping

Gaussis said:
PKT shield scrape is easily done by making PKT travel on the edge of the shield. A PKT shield pierce is a much harder setup that uses a shield scrape to go through any part of the shield. It has to fly at a specific angle into the shield and probably isn't worth learning since the angle is too based on position.

What Exactly Is A Mindgame?
Honestly, I don't know. Some might say it's way of manipulating your opponent to do certain things. Others say that there there's no such thing as a mindgame, only variety. You decide. Usually, a Ness user will "mindgame" their opponent into getting hit by a full blown PK Thunder 2. But how?!

*This guide is here to teach you the basic patterns of Ness' PK Thunder "Mindgames". It will be perpetually under construction and will be updated when new patterns come up.

When Can I Use These "Mindgames"?
Mindgames can be used at any time during a game. *It is best used when you can hit your opponent with PKT2 at point blank range. However, you shouldn't always rely on using mindgames to kill your opponent. Ness has a wide range of kill moves that can be taken advantage of.

Some of Ness' most reliable kill moves include:

Back throw
Back air
Up air

Ness' other "harder-to-hit" kill moves include:

Down air
Forward smash
PK Flash

*See Uffe's Complete Guide to PK Jibaku Death for kill %'s

Remember, you don't need mindgames to kill your opponent. Use Ness' other kills moves if you have the chance. But if you do use mindgames, keep in mind that the BEST mindgames are ones where even you don't know it's coming.

Are These Effective Offline or on Wi-Fi?
Playing offline and on Wi-Fi both have its advantages and disadvantages. Use these "mindgames" at your own risk.

Offline: Since there is no lag playing offline, these "mindgame" patterns will be a lot easier to perform. However, with no lag, your opponent also has a better chance shielding, and then punishing.
Wi-Fi: Well, Wi-Fi pretty much always has some sort of lag. At least a little. With the lag present, it will be more difficult to direct your PKT, without the lack of muscle memory, making it hard to even hit yourself with PKT. However, the lag will also mess with your opponent's timing on shielding against your PKT2, especially if he/she sees your "mindgame" and thinks you messed up.

Techniques
*Cool things you can do to make your "mindgames" more effective

Thunder Swell Surprise: When your opponent is in the air, jump up, wrap PK Thunder around yourself, while tail whipping your opponent, and PKT2 into him/her. Requires good timing
Platform Swell Surprise: Done on a platform that PKT can pass from under
Fake Chasing [...name pending]: When your opponent is in the air , offstage, or just standing somewhere far enough to not get punished, use PKT to chase him/her, retreat your PKT and hit yourself by the time your opponent lands/attempts to punish you
PKT Off-screen: As shown with the basic and double looped PKT2's, when the camera zooms in, you can initiate any of the "mindgames" to catch your opponents off guard
Initiate It!: Just throw it out there. Depending on how your opponent reacts, you can choose whether or not to follow through with it. If you see they are prepared to shield and punish you, cancel out your PKT. If you see them lower their shield, or see that their shield is about to break, go for it!
Get 'Em In The Air!: Since some characters have minimal air mobility, it can be wise to get them in the air, and follow up with a basic aerial PKT2 them while they are descending (Some moves that will achieve vertical knock back: up tilt, up smash, up throw)

Lagless PKT2

Earthbound360 said:
Lagless PKT2 is more than just PKT2ing off the ground at an angle. Its all about that little flip animation ness goes through after PKT2. The later you land during it, the less lag you have. It seems to be in incriments rather than gradual. So you could be in the air and PKT2 downwards and as long as you land during Ness' flip, you lose lag. Just be sure to land before it is completely over or you get huge lag.

Frame Data
*excerpt from Ness' Official Frame Data

Ref said:
PK thunder

Start up: 18
Hits: 19
Ends: 73

According to Ref, PKT lasts 120 frames, which translates into 2 seconds

Let's get started!

The Basics
*Some super easy stuff :lick:

A Basic PKT2

A Basic Off-screen PKT2

*It's best to stall your PKT before hitting yourself, to make your opponent think you messed up

Double Looped PKT2

Off-screen Double Looped PKT2

Some More Intricate Stuff
*Still easy, but looks cooler! :psycho:

Surface to Air Missile *Lagless

Figure 8's

*May be performed in a variety of ways, but basic 8 shape is still intact

Floorblasting

Aerial Floorblasting

Some Harder Stuff
*These are difficult to get 100% of the time, so practice!

Aerial Figure 8's

Grounded Inverse PKT2 (shared by Gaussis)

Double Looped Inverse PKT2 (shared by Levitas)

Solar Plexus (shared by FireKirby7; named by Uffe)

*If you have any better names for this, please share!

PLEASE CONTRIBUTE & DISCUSS

Credits
Thanks to everyone who helped to discuss and share ideas for this guide
...and thank you Hyper Ness

onionchowder · Dec 17, 2008

EPIC AVATAR

and nice use of .gifs

d(^_^)b

personally, i find the double-loop nice for trying to bait an easy PKT, but PKT2-ing away to escape punishment, and the "grounded inverse" the best for mindgames.

Maybe throw some stuff in there about tail-whipping (either to PKT or to PKT2)

Uffe · Dec 17, 2008

That grounded inverse one, I've done that and I have a video with me right now. But how does it work? Also, I noticed some PKT2 missing. You could see it in the PKT2 videos Simna made ages ago. It's like the figure eight, but instead of diagonal, it's vertical.

xoxokev · Dec 17, 2008

The grounded inverse is sort of simple to explain, here let me try:

Okay, it's kind of like doing a basic grounded PKT 2, but give yourself a little more space before you make your initial loop. Loop it a little more up and in front of you, so that you have space to go over your head. I find it easier to initiate PKT, direct it diagonally, and wait like half a second before you would normally loop, and then do it. After the loop, go around your head, and into yourself. Tada! Grounded inverse!

EDIT: fixed

Levitas · Dec 17, 2008

How about the reverse double loop. It's way more useful than the normal double loop.

xoxokev · Dec 17, 2008

Levitas said:
How about the reverse double loop. It's way more useful than the normal double loop.

Inverse double loop? Is that possible??? I'm going to try it! :chuckle:

EDIT: Inverse... or reverse...?

EDIT2: I did it, and it was hard has hell. This could be useful IF you get it down to muscle memory... (which would probably take at least a billion tries... jk not a billion... but a lot for sure)

FireKirby7 · Dec 17, 2008

Excellent guide xoxokev! This thread is like the door to becoming a Ness pro XD
BTW Plz make a gif about the Inverse Double Loop PKT2. Ness will be top tier in no time.

ColinJF · Dec 17, 2008

Pk thunder 2 is too good.

But if you rely on reproducing particular pre-designed patterns you probably won't have much luck actually hitting with it.

My main piece of advice: try to hit mainly aerial opponents with pk thunder 2.

PKNintendo · Dec 17, 2008

Hehe this an awesome guide.

Don't forget that the PKT has UNLIMITED priority. It's tail does. No projectile will cancel it. It's tricky, but you can shield poke with PKT, it will work in the fashion of Lucas.

IIRC, theres a video of it.

Neon Ness · Dec 17, 2008

*jaw drops*

PKT2 Mindgamez > all. Especially offstage.

Also, I've been working on Inverse PKT2 in midair for more mindgaaaamez. But so far no luck...

But still, on land, this is an amazing mindgame. Let's all use this at our next tournament! :laugh:

Also, for Offstage PKT2, I'd say never use it unless it's double looped. The whole mindgame is for Ness to sit there "helplessly" for it to look like he messed up, and then hit himself as his opponent charges him. If you loop it once, there's no time for the opponent to think they can attack safely, and they'll probably just shield. Also, in the video, for double loop you can sort of see the thunderhead as it's being looped. I'd recommend to anyone who uses this looping it farther behind Ness so your enemy can't tell what's going on with it until it's too late. Too late indeed. :evil:

xoxokev · Dec 17, 2008

^I agree, the Inverse Grounded PKT 2 is probably the most useful to learn. But it's so hard to get consistently! I'm definitely going to be visiting training mode a lot for this one

EDIT: Also people, don't forget to give me some ideas for future updates! Thanks! I already edited some of the stuff with what you guys told me already

Bobbery · Dec 17, 2008

Amazing thread you got here :]
PK Thunder really is an amazing move

Waael · Dec 17, 2008

OH LOL So those are figure 8's, I guess I do all of them then

Anyways SEXY GUIDE THAR!

phi1ny3 · Dec 17, 2008

Ness PKT is too good.

I lost to a really good Ness, even though he didn't PKT tackle me (I always airdodged when he did it), he used the thunder to juggle me, which was rediculous. On the receiving end, is it better to just let it zap you since it only does 1% on the tail, or AD a lot to try to avoid it? (can the head be cancelled easily?)

FireKirby7 · Dec 17, 2008

You can out prioritize a PKT with a good aerial. (Lucario's dair) Otherwise it's pretty much a gauranteed 13%+ damage.

jorge199494 · Dec 17, 2008

Nice Guide! To me the most useful one, and the one I use most of the time is the figure 8 PK2. I think that when your at the edge of the stage its a pretty good mindgame Um and ill like to add one too but ill make a video and ill show u a useful one too!

Uffe · Dec 17, 2008

Actually PK Thunder only does 8% damage. You can also cancel out Ness' PK Thunder. Even Lucas'. However, don't think it's going to be easy to do. After all, PK Thunder can be controlled by the player and so if used correctly, the tail can stun the opponent and then they can be zapped by the head of PK Thunder. Another thing is is that the tail can gimp the opponent. I'm not sure how it works, but I think it works if they use their second jump and then get hit by it.

jorge199494 · Dec 17, 2008

The way I hit PK2 most of the time is when I get them in the air and hit them with the tail into a PK2 I get that all the time. And then once out of like 5 matches I go for a mindgame.

FireKirby7 · Dec 17, 2008

Uffe said:
Actually PK Thunder only does 8% damage. You can also cancel out Ness' PK Thunder. Even Lucas'. However, don't think it's going to be easy to do. After all, PK Thunder can be controlled by the player and so if used correctly, the tail can stun the opponent and then they can be zapped by the head of PK Thunder. Another thing is is that the tail can gimp the opponent. I'm not sure how it works, but I think it works if they use their second jump and then get hit by it.

I took all the possible zaps from the tail and then the head into consideration, >.< but whatever. Or maybe I'm just thinking Lucas....

Tyr_03 · Dec 17, 2008

Since I know pretty much everything there is to know about Lucas's PKT, I'll share a few things that you haven't mentioned that I know.

Ness's PKT2 has invincibility frames for the first few frames. This is also the "sweetspot" or time which will cause the most knockback. Priority and knockback from this point onward decrease until stopping. PKT2 has increased priority when moving at an angle other than parallel with an attack. For example, when being shot by Samus's fully charged shot, if heading directly into it, PKT2 will be cancelled, however, at an angle, PKT2 will continue through the charged shot.

I assume you will at some point include PKT2 lag cancelling, achieved by ending PKT2 slightly above the ground to land with minimal lag.

PKT1 is somewhat unique in that its tail stops all horizontal momentum. It's knockback is presumably zero. Its priority is for all intents and purposes unlimited, only outdone by invincibility frames. Note that the tail will not stop needles or laser attacks.

The head of PKT1 has slightly higher priority on the sides than it does on the front or back. Ness's PKT1 has less priority than Lucas's and can therefore be more easily stopped by enemy attacks. Knockback from the head of PKT1 is always vertically upward unless the opponent has just jumped off the ground from very close to the ground in which case he/she will be spiked back onto the ground. This very rarely happens. It must have to occur in the first few jump frames.

As shown by your video of the inverse PKT2, the trajectory of PKT2 is determined not by the direction of PKT1 but by the point on Ness's body which is hit. This is important to know for surface to air PKT2, where you can hit the bottom of Ness's shoe to hit him slightly airborne and lag cancel on the end more easily. Note that you are increasing your priority by sending yourself at an angle as well.

PKT1's tail is reflectable and absorbable for mass healing in teams if you tailwhip an absorbing player.

Shield skimming is possible not only with the tail but with the head as well. By running the head of PKT1 along the edge of an opponent's shield, you can keep PKT1 from dying. Brawl mechanics allow this to actually let PKT1 travel through an opponent because once the shield is hit there is a brief time of invulnerability during which PKT1 can travel inside the still shielding opponent around their shield. This almost always ends in a shield poke however.

Thundersliding is half possible with Ness. However, Ness does not recieve the extra boost that Lucas does, only having his initial momentum push him forward. This means that using PKT1 at the very edge of a platform allows Ness to slightly faster shoot himself upward at an angle. It is not terribly useful.

Nearly instant PKT2's are possible but entirely useless and impractical. They are possible by hitting the head of PKT1 into terrain at such an angle that the pause during which the head is inside the terrain is long enough that the head remains close enough to initiate PKT2 sending Ness downward at an angle almost always to his death. This is useless to know but interesting in case it happens to you by some weird fluke. Don't bother trying to replicate it. It's way too hard. I've done it.

PKT2 as a recovery is easily gimped by momentum affecting moves such as Squirtle's Watergun, FLUDD, etc. PKT1 gets cancelled by these water based attacks because its priority isn't very good and the momentum will shoot Ness out of the way of PKT1 getting him killed.

I expect you'll find some of this more useful than other parts. Take what you want and leave the rest. Let me know if you have any questions. I've done way more testing on PK Thunder than anyone should.

Wave⁂ · Dec 17, 2008

"Official" unofficial name of Swell Surprise is Thunder Swell Surprise (TSS), which sounds a lot cooler.

xoxokev · Dec 17, 2008

^Thanks Tyr, I knew almost all of that but totally forgot to mention it in the guide. The only parts that were surprising to me were when you mentioned that the sides of the head had more priority, PKT 1 spiking the opponent to the ground, and I don't quite understand the mechanics of shield skimming with the head. I've seen it, and done it, but on rare occasions.

I'll be sure to add this stuff, its great to know.

Also, jorge, show me the mindgame you speak of

EDIT: Thunder Swell Surprise does sound cooler, I'll change it

Gaussis · Dec 18, 2008

xoxokev said:
[*]The head can be used to "shield scrape"<-- If anyone knows the mechanics of this, please shed some light

PKT shield scrape is easily done by making PKT travel on the edge of the shield. A PKT shield pierce is a much harder setup that uses a shield scrape to go through any part of the shield. It has to fly at a specific angle into the shield and probably isn't worth learning since the angle is too based on position.

A successful PKT shield scrape can lead to a grounded inverse PKT2. Just throwing it out there.

Kevvviiinnn · Dec 18, 2008

I never knew there was an inverse PKT2 O_O

Definitely learning that. PK Thunder is amazing.

Sosuke · Dec 18, 2008

"Ferris Wheel" is one of the funniest mindgames ever.

Tyr_03 · Dec 18, 2008

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention as well, Ness has a few invincibility frames just as PKT1 is coming out. It's like 1 frame or something stupid like that. But yeah, the moment that the tail leaves the top of his head he's invincible. Yay! lol same with Lucas.

PS: Give me some creds for the stuff that's not obvious. I worked **** hard on some of this stuff.

xoxokev · Dec 18, 2008

Yes sir Tyr sir

Also, I added the PKT invincibility frame ^^

FireKirby7 · Dec 18, 2008

Double Loop Inverse......... *drool* I need to master that......

So do you think we can get a little bit more creative with PKT2? Like take specific stages into mind. The flip on Frigate Orpheon, The Ice and Wind in Pokemon Stadium 2, Arwings on Corneria? I'll get started on that now, hope I find something good.

xoxokev · Dec 18, 2008

xoxokev said:
Inverse double loop? Is that possible??? I'm going to try it!

EDIT: Inverse... or reverse...?

EDIT2: I did it, and it was hard has hell. This could be useful IF you get it down to muscle memory... (which would probably take at least a billion tries... jk not a billion... but a lot for sure)

Honestly, it was very hard to do the first time. I only did it twice out of like 16-ish tries. But if you do master it, it would be fun to make your opponents say "OMG WTF!"

Neon Ness · Dec 19, 2008

FireKirby7 said:
Double Loop Inverse......... *drool* I need to master that......

So do you think we can get a little bit more creative with PKT2? Like take specific stages into mind. The flip on Frigate Orpheon, The Ice and Wind in Pokemon Stadium 2, Arwings on Corneria? I'll get started on that now, hope I find something good.

It's coming to me... Something's coming to me...

Could Lucas or Ness exploit the wind on Pokemon Stadium 2 for instant PKT2? Masky posted a video of Lucas pulling it off from Mr. Game & Watch's Up Air... so technically, could we make that work?

Someone test this ~~so I can take credit for it~~. I already packed up my Wii...

Gaussis · Dec 19, 2008

I think it has to push you up, not float. Unless there's a stream of air that pushes you upward that I am unaware about.

xoxokev · Dec 19, 2008

OK! I just did some testing on Pokemon Stadium 2! Looks like, there's not much of an advantage on the Wind stage... except that it's a lot easier to wreath/solar plexus/ferris wheel (whatever you wanna call it).

HOWEVER! I did find SOME PRETTY COOL things on the Ice stage!

When sliding on the Ice, you can use any of Ness' specials while still sliding. The ones that I found MOST helpful were PKT and PK Fire. The ice is great for "retreating" mindgames! First, you run away from your opponent, and while sliding on the ice, initiate PKT, loop it in front of yourself, and hurt them with a PKT 2 in their direction. You will find that Ness' can PKT 2 a lot faster because he will already be sliding towards the thunder. (NOTE: You can also do this on the conveyor belts in the Electric stage) Another REALLY COOL thing that you can do on the Ice stage, is use a sliding PK Fire! You can PK Fire and slide toward your opponent! OR you can even do a PIVOT PK FIRE and continue sliding in your initial direction! It's like wavebouncing on the ground! Probably very useful for retreating

Anyway, those are the only cool things I found that you can do on Pokemon Stadium 2...

EDIT: Don't forget that I said ANY of Ness' specials. Psi Magnet and PK Flash can also be done while sliding

Neon Ness · Dec 19, 2008

OHHH SNAP

Imagine what Lucas could with his PKF on Ice. He'd slide like 30 feet backwards.

Good find, sir. You win a Hyper Ness.

xoxokev · Dec 19, 2008

I imagine, if it's anything like Thundersliding, Lucas might be able to pull off an instant PKT 2. I'll test it

EDIT: Just as I suspected, it is exactly like Thundersliding. Lucas will have an ALMOST instant PKT 2 if you do it while sliding on the ice. I'll record it and post this on the Lucas boards soon, if done carelessly, Lucas will floorblast, so watch out for that

Gaussis · Dec 19, 2008

Just remember that the ice stage increases the length of PKT2, so don't try it unless you know you are safe.

Earthbound360 · Dec 20, 2008

FireKirby7 said:
Double Loop Inverse......... *drool* I need to master that......

So do you think we can get a little bit more creative with PKT2? Like take specific stages into mind. The flip on Frigate Orpheon, The Ice and Wind in Pokemon Stadium 2, Arwings on Corneria? I'll get started on that now, hope I find something good.

Lol... Afro knows now what PKT2+Frigate stage flip spells for Ness.
Just today I played him on that stage. I PKT2 downward, stage flips, BAM Im completely under it with no chance of return.
Ice is way too fun with PKT2. It makes it come out quick and increases its length two-fold,

Awesome guide so far. Love the GIFs.

IIRC, the tail of PKT has infinite priority and hitting it will never result in dispelling PKT. The head yes, and its quite easy, tail, not so much.

One more thing you may or may not be aware of. Lagless PKT2 is m ore than just PKT2ing off the ground at an angle. Its all about that little flip animation ness goes through after PKT2. The later you land during it, the less lag you have. It seems to be in incriments rather than gradual. So you could be in the air and PKT2 downwards and as long as you land during Ness' flip, you lose lag. Just be sure to land before it is completely over or you get huge lag.

PKT2 off the floor at an angle = Surface to air missile cuz the name is hawt.

xoxokev · Dec 20, 2008

Thanks for the lagless PKT2 tip, I'll update when I get the chance (not right now cause i'm sleepy :psycho:

)

Gaussis · Dec 21, 2008

I was wondering if you can expand the mindgame patterns to include recovery. I believe it would help those who cannot recover that well, or just give new recovery ideas.

xoxokev · Dec 21, 2008

Yeah that's a great idea..
But the only kinds I know of are the inverse pkt2, and the regular kind (aimed diagonally downward, horizontal, or diagonally upward) theres also the vertical recovery, which i think is the hardest, and should only be a last resort

EDIT: For recover, I think I'm just going to include Ref's PKT Instructional Vid... It's basically everything you need to know

Gaussis · Dec 21, 2008

Oh no no no. Vertical recovery is a must to learn how to escape certain edgeguards, like Pit or Mario. It isn't too hard if you understand the feel of PKT, but it is frustrating to learn. The hardest would have to be wallhugging/wallbouncing for me.

A Guide to Common PK Thunder "Mindgames"

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