itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
bowser has some options, dsmash separates them, and you can stay away from the grab somewhat easily with spacing, so it isn't 8/2 bad, just somewhat bad
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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
B!squick
Smash Master
The Ice Climber board has it at 80/20... I'm inclined to agree. T_T I think this is one of those just-pick-a-different-char match ups. :/
MrEh
Smash Hero
80-20 is like Dedede.
I think it's 75-25. Or at the most, 70-30.
I think it's 75-25. Or at the most, 70-30.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Agreed.
Bowser gets destroyed by grabs but unlike D3, he has ways around it (both universal, splitting nana and popo and some others).
He can do some things to avoid getting grabbed, like fortress.
All in all, it's a bad matchup but there are somethings that stop it from being D3 bad.
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Bowser King
B!squick
Smash Master
This is what confuses me about match up threads. Match up numbers, in and of themselves are a generalization and yet I contantly see people argue over a whole 5%!
Why not use a range? Take numbers from credible sources, let's say; 80/20, 75/25, 70/30, and 60/40. Okay? Skip the "what should we agree on" **** and just call it 70:30 +/-10. Everyone has their number represented, no one has to go, *huff* "well, I guess you can put it down as such and such..." Everyone's happy! :D
MrEh
Smash Hero
5 points isn't worth arguing about, which is why I don't do it.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
5 extra points shouldn't be in the equation, do the matchup out of 10, save time/kill the argument
B!squick
Smash Master
You're missing the point though. It's not a problem here on the Bowser board mind you. Everyone's content with 60/40 in most situations (Oli "discussion" not included). It's just that you generally get whiners over the numbers, especially with it's close.
MrEh
Smash Hero
When I make the new matchup chart, I'll list the Dedede and Ice Climber matchup ratios as "LOL".
No one can argue about that. ^^
No one can argue about that. ^^
B!squick
Smash Master
*looks at the Lucas board match up thread*
Also, putting DeDeDe and Ice Climbers down as LOL sounds like a plan.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Pff, I wanted them to list it as 50-50. ^^*looks at the Lucas board match up thread*
10 points is worth arguing about.
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
From my experience, 55-45 Bowser. The CG is too good rofl.
And amazingly, Lucas isn't as difficult to grab as say... Meta, or Sonic.
But 5/5 is ok, as said 5 points dont really matter.
And amazingly, Lucas isn't as difficult to grab as say... Meta, or Sonic.
But 5/5 is ok, as said 5 points dont really matter.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Every time someone brings up the "we won't be grabbed" arguement, I laugh.
There are only 2 characters that I have difficulty grabbing. They are Jiggs and Wario.
There are only 2 characters that I have difficulty grabbing. They are Jiggs and Wario.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Agreed, Minimum 50-50.
Lucas is actually really easy to grab. Both before, and during, the chaingrab.
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Bowser King
MrEh
Smash Hero
The Lucas players can believe what they want. We'll get to Lucas eventually, once we get to the low tiers. (HAHAHAH!!!!)
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
Yas.
Also, ZSS now.
On a funny note I was beating Dark.Pch's ZSS (on WiFi no less) and then he did his usually e-drama routines about quiting brawl and stuff.
Lol, Dark.pch
Also, ZSS now.
On a funny note I was beating Dark.Pch's ZSS (on WiFi no less) and then he did his usually e-drama routines about quiting brawl and stuff.
Lol, Dark.pch
MrEh
Smash Hero
Yeah, there really isn't much to say about the Icies. No input from the actual players. (Not that it matters, it's Bowser after all. We know it's bad.)
30-70 then? 25-75?
EDIT: lol at Dark drama. ^^
30-70 then? 25-75?
EDIT: lol at Dark drama. ^^
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
30/70, just cause we have fire and ftilt and fortress.
For ZSS, catching the items she throws is a big plus but not entirely mandatory (you can just avoid them period). You kill her preeetty fast, just like every other matchup. It's also nice to predict her down b in mid air and bair her face off.
This matchup is 6/4, definitely... possibly 55/45, if you would be so bold. It's really not that bad.
For ZSS, catching the items she throws is a big plus but not entirely mandatory (you can just avoid them period). You kill her preeetty fast, just like every other matchup. It's also nice to predict her down b in mid air and bair her face off.
This matchup is 6/4, definitely... possibly 55/45, if you would be so bold. It's really not that bad.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Bowser vs IC's is worse then Bowser vs DDD, you cannot klaw jump at all unlike against DDD which is good at preventing grabs, instead ull wind up grabbing popo or nana with overb and get upsmashed.
B!squick
Smash Master
Lucky for us, ZSS is difficult to master and tournament level ones are few and far between. Snakeee and Dawza are the only ones I know of. And probalby NinjaLink, I sure he's godly with her too. I think it's a run of the mill match for Bowser. She has an early game only projectile (armor) plus the stun gun, so forcing an approach shouldn't be too hard... but that SideB has some sick range. x_x Good spacing on ZSS's part will be key.
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
The side b is not problem for a smart Bowser; Koopahop over it and grab from behind is generally what I do, or something to that effect.
ZSS's options can be countered, but you have to think and play smart to know exactly what.
ZSS's options can be countered, but you have to think and play smart to know exactly what.
B!squick
Smash Master
They like to SH it though and if you're on the ground shielding it, I don't think there's much you can do in that situation. And the ZSS UpB to UpAir is REALLY effective. o_o
Bnzaaa
Smash Ace
The Ice Climbers obviously have the chaingrab that Bowser has to work around. If Bowser does get grabbed, he will be losing his stock much quicker than he normally would. Bowser does have a few options around it though. Flamethrower outranges everything they have. Multihit moves split them up eaisly, so Down-Smash and to a lesser extent, D-Air work pretty well. Fortress is an awesome move for avoiding the grab. Especially Out of Shield since most poeple are inclined to grabing a shieliding opponent. The invincibiltiy on the first few frames will prevent you from getting grabbed and will send them into the air. Don't become predicable with it or else we can just block it and grab you out of the end lag.
Forcing the Ice Climbers into the air means that you will not get grabbed. They aren't that great in the air. Bowser out priorites them from below and outranges them in front. This can be to your advantage.
However, that isn't the only thing Bowser has to worry about. Approaching is going to be quite difficult for Bowser in this matchup. The Ice Climbers can try to force you to approach with Desynched Ice Blocks from far away, and using Blizzard at mid-range. Racking up damage on Bowser isn't that difficult either. Desynched Blizzards can trap Bowser until about 40, and afterwards make it difficult for him to get close. Squall Hammer can do massive damage and can be spammed to rack damage or pop Bowser into the air. Dash Attack can also pop Bowser into the air. Up-Tilts and Up-Airs from below juggle really well due to Bowser's weight and size. Down-Smash also has the ability to rack up major damage.
If you are trying to recover from below, Ice Climber's Down-Tilt semi-spikes. Also it's possible to hit the Ice Climbers out of their Squall Hammer when they try to recover.
Vs. one Climber it's a bit easier. You can at least chaingrab him back, and have an easier time approaching and hitting him.
Those are my thoughts.
Forcing the Ice Climbers into the air means that you will not get grabbed. They aren't that great in the air. Bowser out priorites them from below and outranges them in front. This can be to your advantage.
However, that isn't the only thing Bowser has to worry about. Approaching is going to be quite difficult for Bowser in this matchup. The Ice Climbers can try to force you to approach with Desynched Ice Blocks from far away, and using Blizzard at mid-range. Racking up damage on Bowser isn't that difficult either. Desynched Blizzards can trap Bowser until about 40, and afterwards make it difficult for him to get close. Squall Hammer can do massive damage and can be spammed to rack damage or pop Bowser into the air. Dash Attack can also pop Bowser into the air. Up-Tilts and Up-Airs from below juggle really well due to Bowser's weight and size. Down-Smash also has the ability to rack up major damage.
If you are trying to recover from below, Ice Climber's Down-Tilt semi-spikes. Also it's possible to hit the Ice Climbers out of their Squall Hammer when they try to recover.
Vs. one Climber it's a bit easier. You can at least chaingrab him back, and have an easier time approaching and hitting him.
Those are my thoughts.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'll list the ratio as 25-75. Let's move on to ZSS.
Thunder Of Zeus
*Rumble Rumble*
oooo zss is tough for bowser... she quick and has good range that can **** a target as large as bowser. to add onto his slowness her constant stunning will be a tough thing to handle. sounds like bowser is gonna need some claw hopping flamethrowing fun to pull it off
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'm really worried about her sideB.
That thing is killer when it's spaced well.
That thing is killer when it's spaced well.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
You forgot me
. well anyway, I say the matchup is ZSS favor. She's faster, has more range, can juggle bowser well. And I dont think bowser can DI out of her up b if she WAS to do up b after dsmash (not confirming that.) We can dsmash his recovery to a spike. If he tries to recover above then we can punish that too. He has no defense against our side b, We can counter things like his fair with our uair. If the ZSS is using proper spacing in her attacks, it will probably be almost impossible for Bowser to touch her.All I can confirm on Bowser's part is that I think he has a guaranteed jab after pummel grab release. Otherwise, he cant keep up and is out-ranged by us.
7/3 ZSS
Snakeee
Smash Master
That sounds about right. Except if the Bowser spaces his Up B perfectly to recover I don't think D-smash will get him because this also seems to be the case with Donkey Kong. However, ZSS can still simply go straight for a down B spike although that is harder to pull off. Either way she is able to mess up his recovery well even with just running off and B-airing.You forgot me
All I can confirm on Bowser's part is that I think he has a guaranteed jab after pummel grab release. Otherwise, he cant keep up and is out-ranged by us.
7/3 ZSS
And NL does NOT play ZSS seriously, I don't know where that came from lol
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
also, you forgot to mention bowsers upb oos, it's how we deal with your sideb, shield the first hit, power through the second with the invin frames. on the ground bowser is quite scary to you guys, in the air... not so much. but you cannot rely on your traditional ground game of dsmash and sideb due to bowsers fire, upb and jump in sideb getting around both of those.
you're also pretty light and die early. it's probably zamus's edge, but no 7/3
you're also pretty light and die early. it's probably zamus's edge, but no 7/3
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
Zss/Bowser is not 7/3, there is no possible way.
6/4 at worst. if not 55/45.
6/4 at worst. if not 55/45.
Jupz
Smash Master
Yeah I agree with Gen. ZSS is terribly light too :o
hai f5.gen :D
hai f5.gen :D
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Why does everyone think bowsers recovery sucks? It's extremely hard to gimp bowser once he was used fortress. There are a bunch of chars out there who get gimped far worse but no one EVER brings it up in there matchup >_>
Anyway, bowser has invincibility frames on the first 5 frames of fortress. If bowsers close to the edge, you won't be able to gimp him. If he's a bit far, fortress has huge amounts of priority so it's not a huge threat.
No way. More like 55-45 or 60-40 max (even then I still think the 1st is better).
I'll go over the rest later.
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Bowser King
MrEh
Smash Hero
A lot of this matchup discussion will probably degrade to theorycraft, since no one uses Bowser and ZSS.
30-70 doesn't seem right though. Probably 40-60, might be 45-55.
30-70 doesn't seem right though. Probably 40-60, might be 45-55.
B!squick
Smash Master
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
The thing is, since we would punish Bowser if he ever went in the air, what could he do on the ground besides attempt to zone us? I dont think it would be a good idea to use side b if we saw that Bowser was PSing it everytime, which should be really hard for him in the first place if used right. Sure like all heavy characters, he could probably kill people earlier than others, but you have to HIT us first. Since we can out range AND are faster than Bowser, it can be a very hard thing to do. The best attack for him imo is his ftilt. it's fast and has some range.
If you was to do up b out OOS we can punish it with SH side b if blocked. You cant do that thing where you cancel side b in the air to double jump since Bowser in the air with ZSS is a very beneficial place for us. We can punish most of his moves with a simple SH bair.
his side b or fair shouldn't work against us defensively in the air since we probably wouldnt be going head to head with him in the there anyway. We would be under him. either that or we would side b through it.
We wouldnt even have to engage in up-close combat that much since we could just go hit and run on him and he couldnt catch us.
If you was to do up b out OOS we can punish it with SH side b if blocked. You cant do that thing where you cancel side b in the air to double jump since Bowser in the air with ZSS is a very beneficial place for us. We can punish most of his moves with a simple SH bair.
his side b or fair shouldn't work against us defensively in the air since we probably wouldnt be going head to head with him in the there anyway. We would be under him. either that or we would side b through it.
We wouldnt even have to engage in up-close combat that much since we could just go hit and run on him and he couldnt catch us.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Jabs are better imo. They're faster and deal about the same damage. Ftilt is good at smacking Marth's Fair away though. ^^
Jabs and Klaw are an exception, and they should be used. A lot.
B!squick
Smash Master
I can usually come back with, "yeah, well Bowser can be a beast in the air too ya know," but ZSS's range disturbs me greatly and a miss timed AD can lead to UAir juggles I'm sure. I think NAir might help us out here since it's faster than Bowser's joke aerial (DAir).
Woah, woah. Back up a minute. That part about "if blocked." I'm not sure about the priorities between the two. Kirby's DAir works wonders randomly. :/ And I thought itsthebigfoot's explination was clear, but here's how UpB OoS works on multi hits and in general:
Shield when attacked -> First part of attack dinks on shield -> UpB DURING the rest of the attack using INVINCIBILITY and priority to our advantage, DIing towards the attacker when nessicary -> DI away as UpB ends to prevent end lag punishment.
Now, I was going to check ZSS frame data to see if her SideB even lasts long enough to get past the invincibility frames. Sadly, the only link I found to her frame data appears to be broken: http://smash.scribblewiki.com/Zamus
We would still use. Sometimes ZSS will be in the air above Bowser and Klaw Hopping offers higher jumping and lagless jumps. And SideB itself has only 3 frames of landing lag. I say it's still useful, but probably less so then normal.
This one depends on the stage though. The smaller ones would seem even smaller with Bowser on the prowl. Also, how well does ZSS fair on Norfair?
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'm just going to say that Bowser is not very slow. He's not Dorf.
His movement speed is pretty quick, for his size anyway.
His movement speed is pretty quick, for his size anyway.
B!squick
Smash Master
Did you ever get your Wii fixed MrEh?
MrEh
Smash Hero
My Wii has always been fine. It was my computer that crapped out on me.
I fixed it though.