B!squick
Smash Master
x_x *bonks self* Lol, don't mind me. It seems I only sound smart when I'm talking about Bowser.
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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
Adapt
Smash Lord
I think uair also beats out your nair. Our uair is surprisingly disjointed for what it looks like.
Bowser is a pretty big target for up-B as well, which greatly aids us at juggling. If we are on the ground, up-smash will go through anything of bowsers, even your down-B
If you get hit by the first hit of side-B then the ZSS is doing it wrong. We will be aiming to space you such that only the tip will hit. It has about the same range as flame-thrower and very low ending-lag, so you will not be getting up-B OOS. If the ZSS does screw up and you manage to shield the first hit you can just shield-grab us and do your grab-release shenanigans
I believe it does... because I have seen it last for quite some time, but I have no proof because I don't have the equipment to gather frame data. Most of the frame data that we have is in this topic: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178317
We will try our hardest to not be above bowser. Due to aerial speed, and down-B we can normally avoid being here because it is our weak spot, but if it does happen try to anticipate and capitalize. Your uair kills at stupidly low percentages if you can hit with it.
ZSS loves norfair... she can avoid the hazards easily and there are 3 tetherable ledges on each side so she is impossible to edgeguard. She also has a little trick where she can down-B from a lower ledge to a higher ledge and is invincible nearly the entire time (if not the entire time).
B!squick
Smash Master
If you're not getting hit by the first hit of a grounded DownB, we're doing it wrong. Some situations require a Bowser Bomb from the sky. Such as a poorly spaced UAir from most chars. But I doubt a situation like that will ever pop up against ZSS. If a ledge is below to grab, yeah, but otherwise, no.
Well, I was refering more to the lingering hitbox. I'm pretty sure it does have that. But you may be right about the range being too much for normal UpB OoS. Can't know for sure until I actually, you know, play it out. Sounds like we should probably take a chance with SH Firebreath. :/
You should update this thread then, 'cause it's where I got the broken link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175185
And all the frame data had was how long it lasts, when it first hits and when the second hit kicks in. It seems to take a while longer then I origionally thought, so shielding it shouldn't be too hard... it's those DSmashes that will probably make the biggest difference, though thankfully Bowser is never easy to KO. Living to 150% and more is not unheard of.
You know, I just noticed something... all the high tiers have good DAirs. While the lower ones have blind spots below them. O.o
Lol, okay. I only asked because that's Bowser's best stage. But besides recovery and the DownB trick, do you think she can exploit the stage offensively too? Bowser would just sit on the lowest one and work out from there.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Norfair is usually banned now 
I'd bet any amount of money against a Bowser there, even if the character is good there. If he stays below ZSS he is asking to get d-smashed
I'd bet any amount of money against a Bowser there, even if the character is good there. If he stays below ZSS he is asking to get d-smashed
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
I'll take that for $1
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
I'll take that bet toNorfair is usually banned now
I'd bet any amount of money against a Bowser there, even if the character is good there. If he stays below ZSS he is asking to get d-smashed
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It seems that Bowser is good on all the stages we're good on. I would probably go BF against one.
MrEh
Smash Hero
BF is good for both Bowser and ZSS.
I'm not sure how that would turn out. XD
B!squick
Smash Master
Who ever get's on a platform first looses, lol.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
How about Lylat?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser does fine on Lylat imo.
It's not as good as Battlefield, but it's not bad.
B!squick
Smash Master
She does have that UpB under the stage thing there though. Could be useful against the unsuspecting Bowser player.
Also, I like how all of, what, 2 people came from the ZSS board to help discuss this?
Adapt
Smash Lord
I don't think very many people saw the post because it got lost quickly in a our olimar discussionShe does have that UpB under the stage thing there though. Could be useful against the unsuspecting Bowser player.
Also, I like how all of, what, 2 people came from the ZSS board to help discuss this?
It seems that both boards agree on ZSS advantage, it's just how much.
B!squick
Smash Master
I find it very silly that we can't make "Hey, we're discussing X" threads anymore.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
B!squick
Smash Master
I don't know... watching him chow down on Kirby is pretty leet.
Bowser doesn't have enough range to force an approach on ZSS, which is the primary key to being able to beat her. He can bait and punish, but if he goes into the air as an approach, he's just going to get SH Plasma Whipped. I guarantee it. Bowser's best bet is on the ground, and if the ZSS is ahead, Bowser will just get camped if he does that.
And if ZSS is behind, she's still got some rangy approach options like nair and uair, and she can pressure from a good distance with dtilt and ftilt. As long as she spaces properly, she'll be tough to grab, and if you just Fortress oos, you'll be predictable, and all she'll have to do is bait it and punish. And ZSS is good at punishment.
All that said, if Bowser gets a grab in, that's very bad for her. So I personally can't put the match-up any lower than 6/4. And that's where I'd stick.
And if ZSS is behind, she's still got some rangy approach options like nair and uair, and she can pressure from a good distance with dtilt and ftilt. As long as she spaces properly, she'll be tough to grab, and if you just Fortress oos, you'll be predictable, and all she'll have to do is bait it and punish. And ZSS is good at punishment.
All that said, if Bowser gets a grab in, that's very bad for her. So I personally can't put the match-up any lower than 6/4. And that's where I'd stick.
If you used that strategy, I'd just dsmash you, then drop through an uair you. ZSS has some of the best moves for gaining positional advantage on that stage. Dsmash for those below you, usmash/uair for those above, and any number of mix-ups in either case.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Pretty much.
The matchup is no lower then 55-45, but it's probably not higher then 60-40.
We just have to decide. It really doesn't matter, since it's only +5 points. XD
B!squick
Smash Master
It really just depends how much you think ZSS's range and speed compensates for her ease of... uh, KO...-atude... -ness... whatever. You know what I mean. She's light and whatnot.
B!squick
Smash Master
I say we make it 57.5/42.5.
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Your a sly one JayDeth 
I say go with 60:40 to avoid arguements besides matchup numbers don't matter that much it's not like "Yes! the matchup is 55:45 now, my skill playing against ZSS players just increased"
I say go with 60:40 to avoid arguements besides matchup numbers don't matter that much it's not like "Yes! the matchup is 55:45 now, my skill playing against ZSS players just increased"
B!squick
Smash Master
It could be 55/45, but sadly, I don't think anyone practices the Flaming Turtle Breath Edge Guard.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Debating the difference between a 55:45 and 60:40 advantage is useless except for the purpose of being able to put down an actual number.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
i haven't had too many problems with zamus
B!squick
Smash Master
So, just put it down as 60/40 for all intents and purposes or what? >.>
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
How about we follow the idea that (I forget which board uses) we write it down as 55:45-60:40 that way no one complains. We all know it's not higher or lower then that.
...or we could label it as 60:40 and have another one added to our collection
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Bowser King
...or we could label it as 60:40 and have another one added to our collection
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Bowser King
B!squick
Smash Master
Okay. Next is Tink and all his projectile flinging glory. It seems that this was already discussed rather recently, so it should be a rather simple copy and paste job. Anything new or something that was left out?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213600
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213600
MrEh
Smash Hero
Feel free to move onto Toon Link. I'll update the ratio for Samus as 40-60.
B!squick
Smash Master
I'm pretty satisfied with 60/40 to lose against Toon Link. 3 different projectiles. Bleh. -.- And ZAir. T_T 'Course, once we get inside that we have a much better time, especially if we get a grab in. Unfortunately, as we all know Bowser's attacks all have pretty good knockback, so we end up back at square one. So make those grabs count!
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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Okay, I've played a new Bowsers.
Just decent ones though, nothing super amazing.
Fire Breath, lawlz -
This is just something I noticed from personal experience.
If you're goign to try to use Fire breath in any way at all against Toon Link, STOP when you see that it hits him.
The instant instant I get hit with the fire, I can use the rest of the fire that is coming at me to SDI close enough to Bowser to Dair him.
So if you're going to use it to stop recover/ punish/ whatever stop it soon. The amount of time it takes to Bowser to stop breathing fire/pull his head back is long enough for you to get punished if you use it for too long.
Anyway, to more important stuff:
Killing -
Killing is really hard for TL. Its a lot easier for Bowser to kill. Basically, when you're at around 100%, that is when you're advantageous in this match-up. He can't *really* combo you at this percentage, so take advantage of it. If you're behind, this is when you catch up. Toon Links going to be struggling trying to get the kill. he'll be doing some riskier stuff. Not playing stupid, but riskier things. You should be getting in a few more grabs at this point. I would suggest saving Ftilt upon release for the kill unless Toon Link is already at low percentages. Basically, use Ftilt when you know you're going to be hitting him about another 10 times before using Ftilt again. But thats just the easiest way I would see Bowser killing. You have a lot of kill moves, so use them.
Stages -
For stages, you want places like Japes or other places with small horizontal blast zones. TL kills vertically much better then he does horizontally, so yeah. Ban low ceiling areas. Wait, actually
Counter- Jungle Japes,Castle Siege
Ban- Lylat Cruise,Delfino Plaza,Frigate Orpheon
This would be accurate since its the opposite of what I have to the Toon Link stage counter pick/ban discussion on Bowser.
Uhh idk what else to say for now.
Ask me anything thats unclear to you.
Just decent ones though, nothing super amazing.
Fire Breath, lawlz -
This is just something I noticed from personal experience.
If you're goign to try to use Fire breath in any way at all against Toon Link, STOP when you see that it hits him.
The instant instant I get hit with the fire, I can use the rest of the fire that is coming at me to SDI close enough to Bowser to Dair him.
So if you're going to use it to stop recover/ punish/ whatever stop it soon. The amount of time it takes to Bowser to stop breathing fire/pull his head back is long enough for you to get punished if you use it for too long.
Anyway, to more important stuff:
Killing -
Killing is really hard for TL. Its a lot easier for Bowser to kill. Basically, when you're at around 100%, that is when you're advantageous in this match-up. He can't *really* combo you at this percentage, so take advantage of it. If you're behind, this is when you catch up. Toon Links going to be struggling trying to get the kill. he'll be doing some riskier stuff. Not playing stupid, but riskier things. You should be getting in a few more grabs at this point. I would suggest saving Ftilt upon release for the kill unless Toon Link is already at low percentages. Basically, use Ftilt when you know you're going to be hitting him about another 10 times before using Ftilt again. But thats just the easiest way I would see Bowser killing. You have a lot of kill moves, so use them.
Stages -
For stages, you want places like Japes or other places with small horizontal blast zones. TL kills vertically much better then he does horizontally, so yeah. Ban low ceiling areas. Wait, actually
Counter- Jungle Japes,Castle Siege
Ban- Lylat Cruise,Delfino Plaza,Frigate Orpheon
This would be accurate since its the opposite of what I have to the Toon Link stage counter pick/ban discussion on Bowser.
Uhh idk what else to say for now.
Ask me anything thats unclear to you.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Japes is a horrible Bowser stage btw. XD
B!squick
Smash Master
No, it's bad; as in, we fall in the water, we die. T_T
B!squick
Smash Master
XD I'll pink Castle Siege all day!
But seriously, CS is a good Bowser stage. A small stage (win) that shifts (walk offs during shift) to a big stage (awww) with projectile barriers (yay) and more walk offs (win) and shifts (le win) into a medium stage (... eh, nothing special about this) then lastly it shifts again (*click*) to rinse and repeat.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
hmm Sasuke mostly said it.
Bowser does better on BF than Toon Link so switch Jungle Japes for it.
erm
Yea probally 45:55 or 40:60 Toon Link
Bowser does better on BF than Toon Link so switch Jungle Japes for it.
erm
Yea probally 45:55 or 40:60 Toon Link
B!squick
Smash Master
Okay then. Are we good? Someone else to add to the 60/40 collection? Shield spam, watch for bombs, stay on the ground, grab grab grab.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Since most people agree on 40-60, I'll go with that. There's really not much else that needs to be said. If anyone has anything else to say, they should say it now. Otherwise, we'll move on to the next character.
B!squick
Smash Master
Pit: .... For someone with a limited UpB, I have a terrible time keeping him off stage when he's low with Firebreath. x_x I think I should just start doing walk off BAirs instead. Pit has the best projectile in the game in terms of where and what he can shoot, so it looks like another case of the dash -> shield approach. That said, I actually think Bowser has the edge in this one. But just in case, I'm going to read up on the enemy like I always do to make sure.
You can't dash->shield against Pit, for various reasons, the main ones off the top of my head are because you can't shield at the beginning animation of your dash, and pit's arrow is fast enough to keep you there, and also because OverB will punish you if you shield at bowser's ftilt range. Much easier to space Pit by SHAD'ing, in my experience. You could also jab/fortress his arrow, but the problem is he can hold arrows (why the **** would sakurai give him that advantage, if you're going to make a spammy character at least make him predictable).
He beats you in the air, has the quickest fsmash in the game which really isn't that weak if he saves it, has the most annoying projectile, and he's average weight. God i hate playing as Bowser against him.
I just counterpick G&W, but there might be some hope for Bowser, after all, I've witnessed Vex beat Rogue in a best of 7.
He beats you in the air, has the quickest fsmash in the game which really isn't that weak if he saves it, has the most annoying projectile, and he's average weight. God i hate playing as Bowser against him.
I just counterpick G&W, but there might be some hope for Bowser, after all, I've witnessed Vex beat Rogue in a best of 7.