The Mario Match-up Index (Updated as of 1/14/10)

The Purpose of This Thread

-To give accurate ratios and give players the opportunity to incite new information that can change the ratio.
-- Note: This does not mean mindlessly debate ratios. Previous discussions will be logged for sake of revisits. Discussions can be stopped or refused to start if there's no evidence behind the discussion. If you wish to know why the ratios are like they are, go to the Mario Match-Up Discussion.
-To provide information on how to defeat said character in a detailed manner. Counterpick stages are also added.
-To discuss how to make match-up ratios better for Mario.


References:
Complete Mario Match-Up Discussion
Mario vs Everyone Else Q&A Thread
Ness is Trash


Match-ups Summaries

Heavy Disadvantage

DeDeDe (Chaingrab) - 35:65

Summary

This is undoubtedly Mario's hardest match-up, for a few minor reasons, and one big one. First, he has the ability to force you to approach with the use of waddle dees and the gordo. He has quick attacks for his size and power, and with his four multi-jumps, he has the ability to WOP Mario off the stage for a gimp.

Mario however, has the MUCH better combo potential on Chaingrab, being able to U-tilt lock him up to ~40%, and do strings of aerial attacks. Chaingrab's GTFO move is his B-air, which means as long Mario stays in front of him, he's easy pickings. Also, despite the four multi-jumps, his Up-B is quite predictable and can be forced to use with the use of FLUDD and fireballs.

If it was like this, it'd probably be even, but this is where the heaviest issue comes to play: the chaingrab, and the infinite. If Chaingrab grabs Mario, expect to be chaingrabbed across the stage, and expect to be WOP'd for a gimp. Avoid this by making good use of your air dodge, taking advantage of Up-B's priority, and cape stalling.

If you're ~100%, expect Chaingrab to go for the infinite, which consists of Jab -> D-throw -> Standing Regrab -> Jab -> D-throw. Mario's only hope of getting out of the infinite is Chaingrab messing up and for the player to master his grab break skills.

The chaingrab is bad enough, but the infinite solidifies the match-up ratio. However, this isn't an auto-loss for Mario. Since Mario can break down Chaingrab's camp game, you don't have to approach him. Be patient and out-camp him, force him to approach, bait an attack, and then go to combo and gimp him.

Nevertheless, this is a hard match. Personally I'd say this is the only match-up where the player should have a counterpick character in mind. Speaking of counterpicks, be sure to use Norfair or Brinstar to CP against Chaingrab to neutralize the infinite.

Metaknight - 35:65

Summary

While Chaingrab tries to make Mario lose all his options, Metaknight forces Mario to use all that he has. Metaknight is Mario's second hardest match-up and for good reason. Metaknight out-speeds and out-ranges Mario in nearly all categories except for aerial speed. His sword does not clash with any attack besides his glide attack, meaning that even if Mario's attacks come out at the same time, Metaknight will win simply due to his range. He is also the best edgeguarder in the game and can do reliable gimping with his D-air. With five multijumps, gliding and three special moves that helps his recovery, he is quite difficult to gimp. His kill moves are D-Smash, F-Smash, and N-air. D-Smash is quite spammable and very risky to punish. F-Smash has some lag in the beginning but is a good mindgame tool when being charged, and N-air will more than likely be used to kill when Mario is off-stage.

Mario however, has his tools to fight back. Metaknight has no way of stopping Mario's fireballs except for shielding, which gives you breathing room and allows Mario to stop his momentum. D-Smash is an excellent punisher for Metaknight's D-Smash since it comes out just as fast. A reverse U-Smash does just as well if Mario's back is behind Metaknight's. Mario can somewhat combo Metaknight, but a lot of it will deal with mindgames and baiting. Most of all however, Mario is one of the few characters that can gimp Metaknight. Shuttle Loop is highly exploitable to FIHL, which clashes with Metaknight's glide attack, which would put him in a helpless state to allow Mario to go for the kill or gimp him with the cape.

A few other tidbits are Metaknight's tornado can be beaten with the last hit of D-air, cape, or Up-B OOS. Metaknight is quite light so U-Smash is a good kill move here, and so is F-Smash. A lot of this match is Mario fully utilizing his defensive abilities, taking advantage of any mistakes, and knowing what one can do in any given situation.

Despite all this, this is quite winnable match-up for Mario, as long as the player keeps a cool head.

Counterpick Stages: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island

Disadvantage

Marth - 38:62

Summary

Meh, Marth. This is overall just an annoying match-up for Mario due to the fact that Marth is a problem for Mario just for two moves: F-air and D-tilt. Marth's F-air is an extreme zoning tool that is hard for Mario to get past if spaced correctly, and can be used to gimp Mario off-stage. D-tilt is a large threat to a grounded Mario and makes it hard to apply his ground game. Both moves combined together resorts to Mario making a large amount of mix-ups.

This match-up is quite hard to judge. Personally, I find this match-up isn't hard as long as Mario stays aggressive and stays inside Marth's range, which is in fact easy to do because Marth is about as predictable as G&W. If needed, FLUDD and Cape Jump works on Marth's F-air quite well and screws up spacing a ton. Running Shield allows Mario to get inside with no repercussions as well. FH Fireball Marth's D-tilt if he's camping.

Nothing is stopping Mario from using fireballs. Marth has no projectile, though he can cancel them with F-air, which is fine, because that just leaves an opening if baited correctly. Use fast attacks on Marth once inside like U-air. N-air to Jab combo on a grounded Marth works wonders too. Up-B OOS if Marth is using Dancing Blade while you're shielded (which can happen, but honestly shouldn't. DB is used for punishing). Watch out for U-tilt, tipper F-Smash, and off-stage B-air. Those moves can kill Mario especially if all of them are tipped.

Marth's recovery is similar to Mario's: Telegraphed, but safe. Mario however can do a number on it, for the usual reasons. Just watch out for F-air (OMG!) when trying to edgeguard him, and ledge-hog whenever possible. F-Smash kills Marth extremely early (85-95% depending on stage position), and U-Smash is great too since Marth is quite light.

The ratio above doesn't show what really happens in matches. As long as Mario can defeat F-air and D-tilt, the rest of Marth doesn't really matter.

Counterpick Stages: To be honest, Marth vs Mario are quite even on alot of stages. Just avoid Delfino, and go with whatever stage you feel comfortable with. Personally, I'd choose Battlefield and Halberd.

Game and Watch - 40:60

Summary

A match-up that was originally Mario's hardest match-up. After many have fought and experimented with G&W, he's considered as one of Mario's hardest, but is able to get around due to mix-ups.

Here's an excellent summary from A2ZOMG. Read this before reading the rest.

With this in mind, G&W is predictable, and takes plenty of commitment time with his attacks. Mario hurts G&W hard when he gets inside, both grounded and aerial, and any conventional smash attack is hard to hit Mario with since his attacks are faster.

Keep in mind that while fireballs causes G&W to fill his bucket, a full bucket stops two things:

-His Anti-Camp tool is gone, so Mario is free to use fireballs all he wants.
-Bucket-braking, an ability that stops G&W's momentum completely, cannot be done if the bucket is full.

Fighting a full bucket is risky, but often can be rewarding. Keep in mind G&W filling a bucket causes him to be in severely high ending lag, enough for Mario to practically walk up and perform an F-Smash.

So pretty much what stops this match-up from being a 65:35 is the "paper" vs "practicality" issue. Mario's bait options are rather limitless on G&W while our two-dimensional friend only has a few mix-ups.

Counterpick Stages: Battlefield, Norfair, Halberd

Ice Climbers - 40:60

Snake - 40:60

Summary

Snake is quite literally the most broken character in the game. He has every basic attribute that is valued in Brawl.

-Snake is fast. Aside from Smashes, there is no move in his arsenal that has a laggy start-up.
-Snake has projectiles. Grenades and Nikita. Nikita isn't so good, but Grenades are Snake's bread and butter that allows for extreme camping.
-Stage Control. Mines, C4, and Grenades allow this. This is one of Snake's best advantages on any character and it allows for some insane setups.
-A great recovery. While vulnerable to spikes, Snake never has to worry about this because he'll always recover high. This makes him hard to gimp for just about any character without multi-jumps. He can even recover with his C4 to make matters worse.
-Extremely heavy. Snake is the 3rd heaviest character in Brawl and to top it all off he has good momentum breaking, making him look like the 2nd heaviest with only DDD surpassing him. He'll often live past 150%.
-A good grab game. B-throw at the edge of the stage can potentially kill, but overall is used to set-up an edgeguard kill. D-throw can tech chase and it's an extremely good tech-chase, one that can lead into D-air, U-tilt, F-tilt, D-tilt, or another grab.
-Extreme knockback. Just about all of Snake's moves have medium to high knockback, and Snake's U-tilt is the best kill move in the game. Virtually lagless, has an unrealistically large amount of range, and kills Mario at around 110%.
-Extremely high damage per hit. This is extremely important to note. Jab combo does 14% if all hits land, F-tilt does 20%, U-tilt does 13%, and a full N-air does 35%.
-Lastly but certainly not least, his broken range. F-tilt is just about double the range it should be. U-tilt is just insane, enough for it to comparable to Marth's F-air.

So with all those pros, one would wonder why this isn't some 90:10 Match-up. To put it simply, Mario has various ways to combat Snake that can keep the match close. While Snake's attacks are fast, Mario's are faster. Mario's jab combo beat Snake's ground moves in terms of speed (not priority), and Mario's aerials are faster than Snake's to the point where Snake can reliably be juggled. Mario has the ability to FLUDD away Snake's grenades to stop his camping and force an approach if needed, though generally what Mario would want to do is just keep the momentum with him. Going by Snake's pace is never a good thing, he'll run all over you. Keep Cape ready to reverse Snake's tilts or aerial attacks. This will generally give you an opening.

F-air gimp Snake whenever it's possible, although it probably won't be. F-Smash is likely to hit Snake however, and it's best to do it around 120%. U-Smash KOs at around 150% but it's best to keep it fresh anyway. You want to kill Snake as soon as possible because Snake can kill Mario that much faster.

Keep an eye on the stage. Mines and C4 can be planted and will be used against you. If you see a mine, fireball it. If a C4 is planted, it'll automatically blow up in ~25 seconds. DI is very important this match. Mario can powershield the third hit of the jab combo (though keep in mind Snake will usually Jab cancel into F-tilt, which is a true combo), and SDI out of N-air and D-air. If you're caught in a D-throw tech-chase, outwit your opponent, cause that's all you can do.

The match-up takes alot of experience and thought of each Snake player, but despite all that has been said, this is a winnable match-up as long as Mario keeps the pressure on Snake and keep him out of his element. The hardest part of this match is KOing Snake before Snake KOs Mario, so juggles and F-Smash is extremely important. Just get past Snake's range and never stop attacking after that.

Counterpick Stages: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes.

Wario - 40:60

Even


Falco - 45:55

Lucario - 45:55

Luigi - 45:55

Olimar - 45:55

Wolf - 48:52


Diddy - 50:50

Summary

Diddy is a character that is recently rising to fame in Brawl. His excellent zoning ability as well as his constant pressure tactics make him an appealing character, and is currently a contender for top-tier placement. Mario however is a formidable match for him for various reasons.

Diddy's greatest quality is his bananas (naners). In which they are the key reason to his zoning, damage-racking, and overall pressure. They are the bread 'n butter of his gameplay for just about any Diddy. Combined with the fact that he has the faster throw in the game (his throw comes out in lesser frames and ends in lesser frames), his moveset, particularly his lagless Dash attack, high-damage F-Smash, and the monkey hump, he can give you a run for your money.

Mario however counters Diddy's naners effectively with the cape, in which if you cape them, they do nothing and counts as your bananas. Diddy however can simply dash grab to regain control of them, but this can be countered in a number of ways, such as fireballs, cape, or grabbing the naner yourself. On that note, it's recommended that you know how to DACIT (Boost Toss AKA "Link's Bombsliding") and/or JCT/RJCT (Jump Cancel Throw/Reverse Jump Cancel Throw) to increase your effectiveness on using naners against Diddy, since it's very possible to follow-up with just about any move out of it. Otherwise, secluding them by throwing them upwards or keeping them at the edge of the stage is doable.

Moveset-wise, Diddy suffers from the same weakness Mario has: A lack of range. This makes Mario's entire moveset usable against Diddy. Pound for pound, Mario's attributes are better than Diddy's as his attacks generally come out faster, less lag, and a high ability to combo Diddy thanks to his size and weight.

Things to look out for ground-wise is Diddy's F-tilt, which has the ability to make a wall to stop Mario from getting past without the use of Cape or F-Smash. His jab, while less effective than F-tilt, also does the same thing, but is much more laggy and punishable. His Dash attack, to be blunt, is ****ing annoying as ****. It's lagless, has high priority against other ground moves, and virtually unpunishable. You either need to fireball this or contest with N-air to beat it. Diddy's D-Smash is inferior to Mario's, but is a decent kill move. F-Smash is his best kill move, but the first hit can be DI'd outwards or upwards to avoid the second hit. And if you do get hit by the second hit, it's a horrible vertical killer, so just DI upward and momentum break.

Aerial-wise, watch out for F-air, his best aerial killer, and Side-B, the monkey hump which can turn into the monkey foot and contest with B-air, which trades hit if Mario doesn't space correctly. Otherwise Mario trumps Diddy in the air. U-air juggles are viable, and just about any aerial besides F-air comes out faster than Diddy's.

Off-stage, Mario vastly beats Diddy with the usual tools. You can fireball, FLUDD, or cape his Side-B (Do not run into Monkey hump. It will gimp you), and N-air, fireball, or Cape his Up-B. Coupled with a ledgehog, this is usually enough to gimp him. With good DI, Mario usually won't be gimped by Diddy. Though, if you're caught in recovering low, watch out for banana gimps and F-air, and make sure to cape stall if he edgehogs.

Overall, this battle will mainly depend if you can break down Diddy's game with his bananas. If you can't, then Diddy automatically wins. If you can, then this match-up is yours.

Counterpick stages: Battlefield, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise.
BAN FINAL DESTINATION.

Fox - 50:50

Kirby - 50:50

Lucas - 50:50

Pikachu - 50:50

Pit - 50:50

:shiek: Shiek - 50:50

Toon Link - 50:50

Zero Suit Samus - 50:50


Ike - 55:45

Jigglypuff - 55:45

Ness - 55:45

Pokemon Trainer - 55:45
--- Ivysaur - 60:40
--- Charizard - 50:50
--- Squirtle - 60:40

R.O.B. - 55:45

Sonic - 55:45

Zelda - 55:45

Advantage

Bowser - 60:40

Captain Falcon - 60:40

Link - 60:40

Samus - 60:40

Yoshi - 60:40

Ganondorf - 65:35

Wait, wait, wait...

Snake vs. Mario is not 60:40 Snake. Snake vs. Marios is 60:40 Mario. Snake has one thing going for him in the match-up against Mario: His up tilt. His Snakedash can be caped, ftilt is very easily avoided ad his grenades... really, who gets hit by those anymore? Snake has always been a very easy match-up for me, I don't see how Snake could even have the advantage.

I'd also say vs. Wolf is 50:50 and vs. Toon Link is 55:45 Mario's favor.

EDIT: Lol at me posting this here instead of Boss' thread.

Wait wait. Ike 55:45 possibly 60:40?

Goddamit Hero, just put the **** 50-50 and move on.

lol, this is going to be fun.

It's never budged to 50:50. 55:45 was settled on but some wanted to go for 60:40. That's why it's debatable.

@Skyler: Snake's ratio seemed solid... but with the new advancements with Mario that could change, but I'll wait until officially making it debatable. Same with Wolf and Toon Link although those are easier to debate.

Now I'mma go to bed now. Play nice kids.

HeroMystic said:

lol, this is going to be fun.

It's never budged to 50:50. 55:45 was settled on but some wanted to go for 60:40. That's why it's debatable.

Click to expand...

If you're not going to listen to both sides of the debate, why bother?

Think what you want.

Squirtle doesn't lose 7/3 to Mario.

Just saying. He has a 1 frame jab and two Mario B-airs on his F-air and B-air, so he's got tools that can really be frustrating to work around.

And Mario CLEARLY has the advantage on Ike. I don't see how it's less than 6/4 Mario. Ike's only advantage is more range, but he is forced to approach Mario due to Fireball camping. Ike by far is one of the worst approachers in Brawl too. EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IKE DOES except for Jab and F-air is unsafe on block. INCLUDING N-air. If Ike does any approach on Mario's shield, he eats an Up-smash out of shield if the Mario knows what he's doing. His Jab combo can be broken by Up-B out of shield. Mario also edgeguards him much more easily than most characters with FLUDD and other things, and Mario juggles him easily due to Ike being very bad at escaping juggle traps.

In short, Mario has all the tools he needs to shut down Ike and gimp him.

A2ZOMG said:

And Mario CLEARLY has the advantage on Ike. I don't see how it's less than 6/4 Mario. Ike's only advantage is more range, but he is forced to approach Mario due to Fireball camping. Ike by far is one of the worst approachers in Brawl too. EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IKE DOES except for Jab and F-air is unsafe on block. INCLUDING N-air. If Ike does any approach on Mario's shield, he eats an Up-smash out of shield if the Mario knows what he's doing. His Jab combo can be broken by Up-B out of shield. Mario also edgeguards him much more easily than most characters with FLUDD and other things, and Mario juggles him easily due to Ike being very bad at escaping juggle traps.

In short, Mario has all the tools he needs to shut down Ike and gimp him.

Click to expand...

Your points illustrate quite a lack of Ike knowledge. I don't even know why I'm going to bother responding to this, but whatever.

Your first mistake was citing that "Ike's only advantage is more range". What kind of a comment is that? Anyone who looks at both characters for just a moment will realize that Ike vastly outranges Mario, out prioritizes him, is much better at killing than Mario and, this ties into the last point, is heavier than Mario by quite a bit. Not only that, but he also has a disjointed hitbox which Mario lacks on almost all of his moves.

By far one of the worst approachers? This isn't Ganon or Captain Falcon we are talking about here. You said it yourself: Fair is safe on block. Only Olimar/Sheik can punish a perfectly spaced Ike Forward Aerial. So please, tell me, how is Mario Up Smashing him out of shield? If Mario attempts to Up B Ike when Ike is jabbing his shield, all Ike has to do is shield himself and boom, Mario meets Ike's Fsmash.

It's VERY easy to avoid FLUDD. You recover low. Mario can't go after Ike since his recovery is certainly not good enough to survive from even getting grazed by Aether. And as for juggling, yeah Mario can get some juggles in on Ike if he 1) Manages to get inside Ike's Fair range 2) Manages to predict Ike's airdodges if it's an air juggle 3) Ike is at low percents. Too bad none of that works past low percents and Ike is heavier anyways.

I don't even see how Mario is supposed to deal with consistent Ike forward aerials and the only thing Mario really has is gimping and low percent juggles. From the analysis, it's pretty obviously not Mario's advantage and there's clearly a solid case for it being in Ike's favor.

But, as I said, think whatever you want. You can go ahead and think it's 7-3, no, 10-0 for all I care. I'm not going to respond to posts after this, but the best way to get reasonable ideas to quantify the match-up is to listen to what others say.

Hey, I actually second Ike here. I know how Ike works, and I've played a number of Ikes. This matchup is really hard for Ike if the Mario knows how to deal with him.

Your first mistake was citing that "Ike's only advantage is more range". What kind of a comment is that? Anyone who looks at both characters for just a moment will realize that Ike vastly outranges Mario, out prioritizes him, is much better at killing than Mario and, this ties into the last point, is heavier than Mario by quite a bit. Not only that, but he also has a disjointed hitbox which Mario lacks on almost all of his moves.

Click to expand...

Ike is NOT much better at killing than Mario. In fact, Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs. Ike doesn't have any moves that aren't telegraphed way in advance in some way. His Jab and F-air, his only two reliable attacks, are also guaranteed to be stale. Ike has to go to a lot of effort to trick his opponent in order to kill them, and he almost always risks getting punished out of shield in the process because practically every attack Ike does is unsafe on shields.

I don't even see how Mario is supposed to deal with consistent Ike forward aerials and the only thing Mario really has is gimping and low percent juggles. From the analysis, it's pretty obviously not Mario's advantage and there's clearly a solid case for it being in Ike's favor.

Click to expand...

Ike does outrange Mario by a lot, but that doesn't mean jack ****. He has to approach Mario, and a good Mario will get inside his range, where Ike will lose. Mario will camp out Ike with Fireballs which is better than Ike's F-air spacing, and wait for him to approach, and when Ike does approach, all Mario has to do in order to punish Ike is run up, shield , and Up-smash. This will beat out Ike 99% of the time if the Mario knows how to do this. If Ike does Jabs on Mario's shield, Mario's Up-B can and will break it.

It's VERY easy to avoid FLUDD. You recover low. Mario can't go after Ike since his recovery is certainly not good enough to survive from even getting grazed by Aether. And as for juggling, yeah Mario can get some juggles in on Ike if he 1) Manages to get inside Ike's Fair range 2) Manages to predict Ike's airdodges if it's an air juggle 3) Ike is at low percents. Too bad none of that works past low percents and Ike is heavier anyways.

Click to expand...

Ike can't always recover with Aether. If he's forced to use Quick Draw, FLUDD with own him. Mario is also capable of caping low recoveries, which will of course gimp Ike too. If Mario FLUDD's Ike before he gets to recover low, this is also a bad position for Ike, which Mario can capitalize on.

Ike is also VERY easy to chaingrab with any character. Throw him upwards. Follow his DI. Do dashing shieldgrabs wherever he lands. As long as someone reads his DI correctly and isn't using an excessively slow character, Ike can do nothing about this.

Basically, Ike's F-air camping is nullified by fireball camping, which forces him to do other moves which will get punished out of shield by Up-smash and Up-B out of shield. Mario by far has the advantage in staying safe in this matchup, and thus wins.

I wasn't planning on speaking much more, but I just have to.

A2ZOMG said:

Hey, I actually second Ike here. I know how Ike works, and I've played a number of Ikes. This matchup is really hard for Ike if the Mario knows how to deal with him.

Click to expand...

Seconding Ike is fine, he needs more players anyways. But you seem to not be fully comprehending the full range of what he can do.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike is NOT much better at killing than Mario. In fact, Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs. Ike doesn't have any moves that aren't telegraphed way in advance in some way. His Jab and F-air, his only two reliable attacks, are also guaranteed to be stale. Ike has to go to a lot of effort to trick his opponent in order to kill them, and he almost always risks getting punished out of shield in the process because practically every attack Ike does is unsafe on shields.

Click to expand...

Excuse me, but did you just say that Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs? He is THE strongest character in the game. His Ftilt has the range of his Forward smash and comes out in a quarter of a second, his Up Tilt and Down Smash link from a jab cancel, his back aerial comes out on frame 7. Not to mention, of course, that you obviously won't be shielding Up Smash or Up Aerial since those will be done when you yourself are in the air.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike does outrange Mario by a lot, but that doesn't mean jack ****. He has to approach Mario, and a good Mario will get inside his range, where Ike will lose. Mario will camp out Ike with Fireballs which is better than Ike's F-air spacing, and wait for him to approach, and when Ike does approach, all Mario has to do in order to punish Ike is run up, shield , and Up-smash. This will beat out Ike 99% of the time if the Mario knows how to do this. If Ike does Jabs on Mario's shield, Mario's Up-B can and will break it.

Click to expand...

You say that "a good Mario will get inside his range, where Ike will lose". There's two things wrong with that statement. Number one, Mario will have extreme difficulty getting past a Forward aerial, especially when spaced by a good Ike. And when you happen to, somehow, get past the 5 foot sword, do you know what is going to happen? I do. The Ike player is going to press A. Mario fireballs may force the fight to himself from a distance greater than Ike's Fair range, but their use is limited once in it. And if Mario runs up to Ike when he is jumping, all Ike needs to do is do a retreating Fair. Boom, he goes unpunished. Fair will consistently intercept Mario. And once again, it does not matter if Mario's Up B can be done out of shield to interrupt Ike's jab combo on it. First off all, your reaction time needs to be 0 frames to block Ike's jab with a shield, secondly if Ike hits a shield with the jab combo, all he has to do is stop doing it and shieldgrab or just regular shield. Mario still loses in this situation.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike can't always recover with Aether. If he's forced to use Quick Draw, FLUDD with own him. Mario is also capable of caping low recoveries, which will of course gimp Ike too. If Mario FLUDD's Ike before he gets to recover low, this is also a bad position for Ike, which Mario can capitalize on.

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I have a tidbit of news that you may need to know. It has been proven that Quick Draw is not required for Ike to recover. Anything that can be done with Quick Draw can be done with a double jump and Aether. He's not going to be put in a compromising position. Cape will gimp Ike, just as Ike's Forward Aerial will gimp Mario in the same way, nothing flashy here.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike is also VERY easy to chaingrab with any character. Throw him upwards. Follow his DI. Do dashing shieldgrabs wherever he lands. As long as someone reads his DI correctly and isn't using an excessively slow character, Ike can do nothing about this.

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By do nothing do you mean that Ike:

- Has lost his jump function; and
- Has lost his attack abilities?

If that works more than once you're not playing good Ikes.

A2ZOMG said:

Basically, Ike's F-air camping is nullified by fireball camping, which forces him to do other moves which will get punished out of shield by Up-smash and Up-B out of shield. Mario by far has the advantage in staying safe in this matchup, and thus wins.

Click to expand...

Ike's Fair approach is in no way nullified by Fireballs. You keep saying that Mario will Up Smash out of shield or Up B out of shield but I don't see either of those happening to Ike's Fair. Ike's Fair and long range in general mean that HE is the one who will be safe a vast majority of the time, not Mario.

YagamiLight said:

Excuse me, but did you just say that Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs? He is THE strongest character in the game. His Ftilt has the range of his Forward smash and comes out in a quarter of a second, his Up Tilt and Down Smash link from a jab cancel, his back aerial comes out on frame 7. Not to mention, of course, that you obviously won't be shielding Up Smash or Up Aerial since those will be done when you yourself are in the air.

Click to expand...

Yes, Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs. Marth sucks at scoring KOs and still is better than Ike at scoring KOs. That is how much Ike sucks at scoring KOs.

F-tilt is too slow. Jab cancel is not a true combo. Up-tilt has bad horizontal range. D-smash is HORRIFYINGLY weak and unsafe. B-air is obvious since it's Ike's only option when he's facing backwards and it's unsafe on shields. Up-smash and U-air are also very obvious and very difficult to land on a good opponent.

You say that "a good Mario will get inside his range, where Ike will lose". There's two things wrong with that statement. Number one, Mario will have extreme difficulty getting past a Forward aerial, especially when spaced by a good Ike. And when you happen to, somehow, get past the 5 foot sword, do you know what is going to happen? I do. The Ike player is going to press A. Mario fireballs may force the fight to himself from a distance greater than Ike's Fair range, but their use is limited once in it. And if Mario runs up to Ike when he is jumping, all Ike needs to do is do a retreating Fair. Boom, he goes unpunished. Fair will consistently intercept Mario. And once again, it does not matter if Mario's Up B can be done out of shield to interrupt Ike's jab combo on it. First off all, your reaction time needs to be 0 frames to block Ike's jab with a shield, secondly if Ike hits a shield with the jab combo, all he has to do is stop doing it and shieldgrab or just regular shield. Mario still loses in this situation.

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Getting past forward airs is not hard at all. Mario just has to be patient with his fireball camping, and it will deal damage to Ike. Eventually it will bring Ike closer to him to the range where he can be punished.

If the Mario is good and shields Jab, he will Up-B before Ike can do anything else. Even before Ike can shield.

I have a tidbit of news that you may need to know. It has been proven that Quick Draw is not required for Ike to recover. Anything that can be done with Quick Draw can be done with a double jump and Aether. He's not going to be put in a compromising position. Cape will gimp Ike, just as Ike's Forward Aerial will gimp Mario in the same way, nothing flashy here.

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Actually, there are several instances where if you take a hit from Mario's D-smash, you NEED Quickdraw to recover because of the fairly low angle at which the D-smash sends you at.

Ike's Fair approach is in no way nullified by Fireballs. You keep saying that Mario will Up Smash out of shield or Up B out of shield but I don't see either of those happening to Ike's Fair. Ike's Fair and long range in general mean that HE is the one who will be safe a vast majority of the time, not Mario.

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If Ike is approaching with F-air, he's losing. That is EXACTLY what players want Ike to do. Be in a position where he HAS to approach with F-air. This is when Mario persay can run up, shield, and punish. Ike has very bad air mobility. He cannot weave in and out in the same jump with attacks unless it's a fullhop. If Mario reads Ike doing an approaching F-air, Ike has to commit to it, and there is enough time between the startup for Mario to close distance to punish.

By do nothing do you mean that Ike:

- Has lost his jump function; and
- Has lost his attack abilities?

If that works more than once you're not playing good Ikes.

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If Ike jumps, he still has to land on the ground. If Ike attacks, he still will get shieldgrabbed if the opponent read his DI right. Either way, characters like Ike, Donkey Kong, and Snake are very easy to Up-throw chaingrab with a large number of the cast. Let's not forget that Ike's air mobility is terrible.

A2ZOMG said:

Yes, Ike has huge trouble scoring KOs. Marth sucks at scoring KOs and still is better than Ike at scoring KOs. That is how much Ike sucks at scoring KOs.

F-tilt is too slow. Jab cancel is not a true combo. Up-tilt has bad horizontal range. D-smash is HORRIFYINGLY weak and unsafe. B-air is obvious since it's Ike's only option when he's facing backwards and it's unsafe on shields. Up-smash and U-air are also very obvious and very difficult to land on a good opponent.

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Sigh. When you say Ike has trouble scoring KOs it makes me wonder whether you've seen the character or not.

Ftilt comes out on Frame 17. That's 2 frames after Mario's Forward Smash.

Up Tilt has bad horizontal range for an Ike move, doesn't mean much.

Dsmash kills at around 110% I believe. How...horrifyingly weak.

Turning around takes one (1) frame. If Ike is jumping at you with his back, he is doing it wrong.

I like how you call Up Aerial obvious even though it outlasts every airdodge in the game by quite a bit. Hitting with Up smash is easy, even on good opponents.

Face it, practically everything Ike has kills, and that's not even considering that he has the most spikes in the game.

A2ZOMG said:

Getting past forward airs is not hard at all. Mario just has to be patient with his fireball camping, and it will deal damage to Ike. Eventually it will bring Ike closer to him to the range where he can be punished.

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The fireballs are projectiles that go along the ground and are used to control space. If Ike is in Fair range, there is quite literally nothing Mario can punish him with.

A2ZOMG said:

If the Mario is good and shields Jab, he will Up-B before Ike can do anything else. Even before Ike can shield.

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Um no this is wrong. If you shield jab and the Ike doesn't continue, here's what happens. Ike has two frames to either shield or spotdodge. Mario's Up B comes out in 3 frames. With proper buffering, Ike will win.

A2ZOMG said:

Actually, there are several instances where if you take a hit from Mario's D-smash, you NEED Quickdraw to recover because of the fairly low angle at which the D-smash sends you at.

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First off, just DI the hit upwards. Secondly, even in those scenarios, Aether will still make it back whenever QD would have.

A2ZOMG said:

If Ike is approaching with F-air, he's losing. That is EXACTLY what players want Ike to do. Be in a position where he HAS to approach with F-air. This is when Mario persay can run up, shield, and punish. Ike has very bad air mobility. He cannot weave in and out in the same jump with attacks unless it's a fullhop. If Mario reads Ike doing an approaching F-air, Ike has to commit to it, and there is enough time between the startup for Mario to close distance to punish.

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I don't particularly care what "players want Ike to do". Ike is approaching with Fair, he is on the offensive and using an attack that Mario simply cannot retaliate against. Ike's aerial mobility is the exact same as Toon Link's and only a tiny bit worse than Mario's (http://smashlovers.com/brawl/?p=38). I cannot believe you are saying stuff like that. And it doesn't matter if the Mario reads it, it's a huge amount of space that you simply will NOT be covering in slightly more than 1/4 of a second, especially if the Ike is retreating. Not to mention Ike can just empty hop or autocancel then Mario meets Mr. Jab if he runs forward.

A2ZOMG said:

If Ike jumps, he still has to land on the ground. If Ike attacks, he still will get shieldgrabbed if the opponent read his DI right. Either way, characters like Ike, Donkey Kong, and Snake are very easy to Up-throw chaingrab with a large number of the cast. Let's not forget that Ike's air mobility is terrible.

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If Ike jumps, he lands on a platform, problem solved. If he attacks, he uses Fair. Worst case scenario just QD out of there if you must, not that he needs to. This is all assuming Ike screws up DI. And once again with this silly air mobility statement. Learn the character.

Wolf vs Mario is probably 5/5. We have it 6/4 ourselves on the Wolf boards but it's rather even, really. I just don't care about match-up numbers anymore so I never update it <_<

YagamiLight said:

Ftilt comes out on Frame 17. That's 2 frames after Mario's Forward Smash.

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Yes, that is waaaaaaaaay too slow. Frame 15 is already borderline too slow. Any slower than that and yes, it is much too slow.

Up Tilt has bad horizontal range for an Ike move, doesn't mean much.

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It has bad horizontal range.

Dsmash kills at around 110% I believe. How...horrifyingly weak.

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First hit kills Mario at 130% Training mode FD. That is too weak especially for its risk.

Turning around takes one (1) frame. If Ike is jumping at you with his back, he is doing it wrong.

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If you're approaching with RAR B-airs, you're playing Ike wrong. That is asking for you to be punished. I don't care that it only takes 1 frame to turn around. That's completely irrelevant. Ike's B-air is much too situational in terms of hitbox and safety to be a reliable KO move.

I like how you call Up Aerial obvious even though it outlasts every airdodge in the game by quite a bit. Hitting with Up smash is easy, even on good opponents.

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Up-air may outlast air dodges, but that doesn't account for the positioning of the opponent and their fall speed. Ike's air time is very limited, so it is possible for people to get past it with air dodges pretty easily. Not just that, Mario can simply Cape Stall in this matchup, and the Up-air won't hit him. If Ike does it early, the Cape stall will keep Mario above the Up-air. If Ike does it late, Mario will fastfall past it with an air dodge.

Landing Up-smash is only easy if your opponent air dodges towards you while you charge Up-smash and if they roll like an idiot a lot.

Face it, practically everything Ike has kills, and that's not even considering that he has the most spikes in the game.

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Ike has one of the worst edgeguarding games in Brawl.

He gets almost no distance offstage and the ending lag on his aerials is very bad. Ike is one of those characters that also risks getting edgehogged pretty much every time he goes offstage to edgeguard.

The fireballs are projectiles that go along the ground and are used to control space. If Ike is in Fair range, there is quite literally nothing Mario can punish him with.

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Let me also add, they should be interrupting F-airs as Ike is starting them up, which leaves Ike dangling in the air for some time. More time for Mario to move in with different attacks.

Um no this is wrong. If you shield jab and the Ike doesn't continue, here's what happens. Ike has two frames to either shield or spotdodge. Mario's Up B comes out in 3 frames. With proper buffering, Ike will win.

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Okay, so I'm wrong. Your frame data sucks. You can simply wait for the 2nd Jab though, and if Ike spotdodges, that is time to set up a different attack to punish.

First off, just DI the hit upwards. Secondly, even in those scenarios, Aether will still make it back whenever QD would have.

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D-smash comes out in 5 frames, so good luck DIing that all the time. And no, QD does make a difference. There is a clear difference between the option of being able to sometimes land on stage and being able to only barely grab the ledge. That difference in distance is the discrepancy where Ike is forced to use a midair jump and QD to make it back. It's not easy to DI Mario's D-smash on reaction, and it does send you low enough to the point where it will limit your recovery options.

I don't particularly care what "players want Ike to do". Ike is approaching with Fair, he is on the offensive and using an attack that Mario simply cannot retaliate against. Ike's aerial mobility is the exact same as Toon Link's and only a tiny bit worse than Mario's (http://smashlovers.com/brawl/?p=38). I cannot believe you are saying stuff like that. And it doesn't matter if the Mario reads it, it's a huge amount of space that you simply will NOT be covering in slightly more than 1/4 of a second, especially if the Ike is retreating. Not to mention Ike can just empty hop or autocancel then Mario meets Mr. Jab if he runs forward.

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If Ike is approaching, then that means Mario is getting in his range and punishing. Unlike other characters (for example Toon Link) Ike has very bad aerial acceleration. Once he starts moving forward, he HAS to commit to that motion, which covers much of the distance needed for any character to punish Ike. Mario's Up-smash has a lot more range than you would expect and if Ike approaches, it is among one of the tools Mario can use to punish Ike on block.

If Ike jumps, he lands on a platform, problem solved. If he attacks, he uses Fair. Worst case scenario just QD out of there if you must, not that he needs to. This is all assuming Ike screws up DI. And once again with this silly air mobility statement. Learn the character.

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On FD, jumping does nothing, If you're on a platform with Ike, you're still at a disadvantage either way. If your opponent read your DI right, they can shieldgrab your F-air regardless. If you QD, you still get chased down and punished. Ike sucks at escaping juggling traps.

A2ZOMG said:

Yes, that is waaaaaaaaay too slow. Frame 15 is already borderline too slow. Any slower than that and yes, it is much too slow.

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Oh yes, my mistake. 1/30th of a second extra is MUCH too slow.

A2ZOMG said:

It has bad horizontal range.

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Just look at it's hitbox yourself.

A2ZOMG said:

First hit kills Mario at 130% Training mode FD. That is too weak especially for its risk.

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You kill 5% or so later in training mode I believe. 125% is low for Ike, but that's alright.

A2ZOMG said:

If you're approaching with RAR B-airs, you're playing Ike wrong. That is asking for you to be punished.

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Obviously tossing out one, unpredictable RAR when they are at 100% is definitely not a bad idea, especially since it can kill them.

A2ZOMG said:

Up-air may outlast air dodges, but that doesn't account for the positioning of the opponent and their fall speed. Ike's air time is very limited, so it is possible for people to get past it with air dodges pretty easily. Not just that, Mario can simply Cape Stall in this matchup, and the Up-air won't hit him. If Ike does it early, the Cape stall will keep Mario above the Up-air. If Ike does it late, Mario will fastfall past it with an air dodge.

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I'm sure you know that Ike's fast falling speed is...faster than Mario's, right? By quite a bit? If Mario airdodges he is getting hit with a VERY powerful aerial. (Just to tell you how strong it is, it kills Mario at 93% on a low platform on Battlefield, we're even higher up here).

A2ZOMG said:

Landing Up-smash is only easy if your opponent air dodges towards you while you charge Up-smash and if they roll like an idiot a lot.

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It's far easier than you make it out to be. It hits at 180 degrees all around and uses a 5 footsword.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike has one of the worst edgeguarding games in Brawl.

He gets almost no distance offstage and the ending lag on his aerials is very bad. Ike is one of those characters that also risks getting edgehogged pretty much every time he goes offstage to edgeguard.

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Are you kidding me? Ike's edgeguarding game is top notch. Walk-off Dair, Walk-off Fair, Reverse Aether, Dtilt, Eruption, ledgehopped Counter, Fsmash. And most characters risk getting edgehogged when they go out to intercept someone, Ike doesn't have to go far out, so the risk is minimal.

A2ZOMG said:

Let me also add, they should be interrupting F-airs as Ike is starting them up, which leaves Ike dangling in the air for some time. More time for Mario to move in with different attacks.

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A full hopped Fair simply goes over the fireballs.

A2ZOMG said:

Okay, so I'm wrong. Your frame data sucks. You can simply wait for the 2nd Jab though, and if Ike spotdodges, that is time to set up a different attack to punish.

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How on Earth does my frame data suck? In any case, the same thing happens for the second jab. And if Ike spotdodges, it ends on frame 25 while Mario is still in the air. Hello Fsmash.

A2ZOMG said:

D-smash comes out in 5 frames, so good luck DIing that all the time. And no, QD does make a difference. There is a clear difference between the option of being able to sometimes land on stage and being able to only barely grab the ledge. That difference in distance is the discrepancy where Ike is forced to use a midair jump and QD to make it back.

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It's quite easy to DI the hit, hold upwards. And what are you talking about? Why would Ike want to land on stage when he can get caped or FLUDD'd anyways? Aether is the best option.

A2ZOMG said:

If Ike is approaching, then that means Mario is getting in his range and punishing. Unlike other characters (for example Toon Link) Ike has very bad aerial acceleration. Once he starts moving forward, he HAS to commit to that motion, which covers much of the distance needed for any character to punish Ike. Mario's Up-smash has a lot more range than you would expect and if Ike approaches, it is among one of the tools Mario can use to punish Ike on block.

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Ike's aerial acceleration is also average. He does not have to commit to the motion, even in a short hop. Try it out yourself in training mode. You are also contradicting yourself: Mario's Up Smash has less horizontal range than Ike's Up Tilt, a move you said had "bad horizontal range". Not to mention that it comes nowhere near close enough to reach Ike after a spaced Fair, or even poorly done Fairs. That means you have to drop the shield (7 frames), buffer the Dash animation (1 frame), Do the Up Smash (9 frames) and you won't even manage to do this because there is a large distance you have to cross. Please stop saying Mario can punish a spaced Ike Forward Aerial. HE CANNOT. For your reference, the fireball comes out on Frame 14, so don't bother saying that either.

A2ZOMG said:

On FD, jumping does nothing, If you're on a platform with Ike, you're still at a disadvantage either way. If you QD, you still get chased down and punished. Ike sucks at escaping juggling traps.

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You're making the fatal assumption that Ike a) Cannot DI b) We will be on FD c) Cannot space an aerial (Which we have shown is unpunishable) and d) Won't manage to go low and run away with QD or something similar. Just try doing it in a match, it won't work and you're just going to be hit.


You don't seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to Ike. That's fine I guess but don't go claiming advantages against characters who you appear to not fully comprehend.

YagamiLight said:

Oh yes, my mistake. 1/30th of a second extra is MUCH too slow.

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Yes, it makes a very significant difference. 1 frame in Brawl is very significant due to buffering.

You kill 5% or so later in training mode I believe. 125% is low for Ike, but that's alright.

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Not forgetting that if you do Jab -> D-smash BS (which doesn't even work) it will be DIed and it will kill later than that. D-smash is terrible anyway. You should never use it. It's not even remarkably fast, it has garbage range, and lasts too long.

Obviously tossing out one, unpredictable RAR when they are at 100% is definitely not a bad idea, especially since it can kill them.

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An opponent in that percent range will play defensively. Not easy to land. Not safe. Not good. The best time to do it is out of shield if the opponent is the right size or in the right position.

I'm sure you know that Ike's fast falling speed is...faster than Mario's, right? By quite a bit? If Mario airdodges he is getting hit with a VERY powerful aerial. (Just to tell you how strong it is, it kills Mario at 93% on a low platform on Battlefield, we're even higher up here).

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That's not how aerial mobility works. When you're moving on the way up from a jump, you cannot fastfall. Ike's fast falling speed also works AGAINST him in landing the up-air because it means that in many other situations, he will not be able to hold his Up-air in the air long enough to punish an opponent. He's not landing it on a good opponent often.

Are you kidding me? Ike's edgeguarding game is top notch. Walk-off Dair, Walk-off Fair, Reverse Aether, Dtilt, Eruption, ledgehopped Counter, Fsmash. And most characters risk getting edgehogged when they go out to intercept someone, Ike doesn't have to go far out, so the risk is minimal.

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No, Ike's edgeguard game sucks. The ending lag on everything is horrible, and everything Ike does is easy to see coming in advance. Ike lacks any ability to actually CHASE his opponent down when they are offstage and be where they are in order to hit them. You're not landing any of the mentioned things easily in a game where air dodging does not put you in free fall and when characters sweetspot the ledge from ridiculous distances unless if your opponent has very bad recovery.

A full hopped Fair simply goes over the fireballs.

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HAHAHA. You just assumed Mario would be SHing fireballs. And besides, I'm pretty sure fullhop F-air I think goes over Mario's head. He's just not quite tall enough to be hit by that.

How on Earth does my frame data suck? In any case, the same thing happens for the second jab. And if Ike spotdodges, it ends on frame 25 while Mario is still in the air. Hello Fsmash.

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There are no frame advantages listed in your frame data topic. Get those up now.

Let me add, Ike gets SHIELDGRABBED in the lag of first and second jabs. And that's slower than Up-B. I highly doubt Ike actually has enough frame advantage to perfectly spotdodge like you mention.

It's quite easy to DI the hit, hold upwards. And what are you talking about? Why would Ike want to land on stage when he can get caped or FLUDD'd anyways? Aether is the best option.

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Yes, DIing is not hard. DIing on REACTION however is very difficult against certain attacks in Brawl which both come out fast and do not have many hitlag frames. Mario's D-smash is one of those.

Ike's aerial acceleration is also average. He does not have to commit to the motion, even in a short hop. Try it out yourself in training mode. You are also contradicting yourself: Mario's Up Smash has less horizontal range than Ike's Up Tilt, a move you said had "bad horizontal range". Not to mention that it comes nowhere near close enough to reach Ike after a spaced Fair, or even poorly done Fairs. That means you have to drop the shield (7 frames), buffer the Dash animation (1 frame), Do the Up Smash (9 frames) and you won't even manage to do this because there is a large distance you have to cross. Please stop saying Mario can punish a spaced Ike Forward Aerial. HE CANNOT. For your reference, the fireball comes out on Frame 14, so don't bother saying that either.

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Average is not good enough in Brawl where out of shield options rule the metagame. Ike's low jumps and fall speed also limit his horizontal aerial movement.

Also, the other thing about Ike's Up-tilt is that its range is garbage for the zone at which Ike prefers to be at. Mario's Up-smash has acceptable range for Mario's zones. Ike does not.

You're making the fatal assumption that Ike a) Cannot DI b) We will be on FD c) Cannot space an aerial (Which we have shown is unpunishable) and d) Won't manage to go low and run away with QD or something similar. Just try doing it in a match, it won't work and you're just going to be hit.

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It doesn't matter if you DI. Ike is too slow in the air. A good opponent will actually powershield any hit Ike does and punish him as he comes down. I've done this quite a few times in tournament against characters who don't suffer from juggle traps nearly as much as Ike.

You don't seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to Ike. That's fine I guess but don't go claiming advantages against characters who you appear to not fully comprehend.

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Ike is a very simple character. His entire strategy is Jab and F-air (before doing other random attacks) because when properly spaced, those are his only two attacks safe on block. He's not hard at all to understand. He's extremely limited in terms of options, and the only reason why he isn't the worst character in the game is because his Jab and F-air are good attacks. However, he cannot rely on these attacks in matchups where he is being projectile camped. This puts him in the % disadvantage.

Sure, I only covered one strategy Mario has on Ike, but due to the lagless nature of shielding in Brawl, it's not hard at all to get inside Ike's range. It just happens because of how retardedly gay defensive options are in Brawl. I'm pointing out the extremes of this matchup where Ike is at a clear disadvantage, because Mario has the % lead from fireball camping.

A2ZOMG said:

Yes, it makes a very significant difference. 1 frame in Brawl is very significant due to buffering.

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Buffering has little to do with anything in this case.

A2ZOMG said:

Not forgetting that if you do Jab -> D-smash BS (which doesn't even work) it will be DIed and it will kill later than that. D-smash is terrible anyway. You should never use it. It's not even remarkably fast, it has garbage range, and lasts too long.

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Jab to Dsmash works if your opponent does not jump. Dsmash is bad, so I just cited it as an example that everything Ike has can kill.

A2ZOMG said:

An opponent in that percent range will play defensively. Not easy to land. Not safe. Not good.

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The move is quite easy to land, especially if the opponent is on a platform.

A2ZOMG said:

That's not how aerial mobility works. When you're moving on the way up from a jump, you cannot fastfall. Ike's fast falling speed also works AGAINST him in landing the up-air because it means that in many other situations, he will not be able to hold his Up-air in the air long enough to punish an opponent. He's not landing it on a good opponent often.

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I know how and when fastfalls work. In the situation we were talking about, when Ike Up Airs late, Mario will get hit. Mario WILL die at obscenely low percents.

A2ZOMG said:

No, Ike's edgeguard game sucks. The ending lag on everything is horrible, and everything Ike does is easy to see coming in advance. Ike lacks any ability to actually CHASE his opponent down when they are offstage and be where they are in order to hit them. You're not landing any of the mentioned things easily in a game where air dodging does not put you in free fall and when characters sweetspot the ledge from ridiculous distances unless if your opponent has very bad recovery.

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News flash: Ending lag doesn't matter if you kill them. Ike has so many options that whatever you do doesn't matter, you'll probably die from one of them. If they sweetspot the ledge and Ike is charging Eruption above them, they're more or less screwed.

A2ZOMG said:

HAHAHA. You just assumed Mario would be SHing fireballs. And besides, I'm pretty sure fullhop F-air I think goes over Mario's head. He's just not quite tall enough to be hit by that.

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Fullshop Fair does indeed go over Mario's head. Not that it matters since the fireballs are a slow and bad projectile, easily powershielded.

A2ZOMG said:

There are no frame advantages listed in your frame data topic. Get those up now.

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Jab1 gives you a 6 frame advantage. Kirk says it near the last few pages.

A2ZOMG said:

Yes, DIing is not hard. DIing on REACTION however is very difficult against certain attacks in Brawl which both come out fast and do not have many hitlag frames. Mario's D-smash is one of those.

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It does not matter how difficult it is to perform (Which isn't actually that much, in this case).

A2ZOMG said:

Average is not good enough in Brawl where out of shield options rule the metagame. Ike's low jumps and fall speed also limit his horizontal aerial movement.

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OoS options do not dominate the metagame. I cannot believe you are even saying that even though Ike can do what I've stated, it doesn't matter because his movement speed is average?

A2ZOMG said:

It doesn't matter if you DI. Ike is too slow in the air. A good opponent will actually powershield any hit Ike does and punish him as he comes down. I've done this quite a few times in tournament against characters who don't suffer from juggle traps nearly as much as Ike.

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It is simply NOT going to work. Ike has way too many options, anyone has plenty of options.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike is a very simple character. His entire strategy is Jab and F-air (before doing other random attacks) because when properly spaced, those are his only two attacks safe on block. He's not hard at all to understand. He's extremely limited in terms of options, and the only reason why he isn't the worst character in the game is because his Jab and F-air are good attacks. However, he cannot rely on these attacks in matchups where he is being projectile camped. This puts him in the % disadvantage.

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Ike isn't the worst character in the game due to several factors, including moveset, raw stats, etc. If you are deluding yourself into think that Ike is all Jab and Fair, go ahead and think that. Ike's moveset is easy to understand, but he's not an easy character to play by far. And you know what else? There are few characters who can projectile camp Ike who are not in the 55-45 to 45-55 range. Fox, Ness, Lucas, Zelda, Pikachu, Link and the others are all there. He can rely on these attacks and he DOES.

A2ZOMG said:

Sure, I only covered one strategy Mario has on Ike, but due to the lagless nature of shielding in Brawl, it's not hard at all to get inside Ike's range. It just happens because of how retardedly gay defensive options are in Brawl. I'm pointing out the extremes of this matchup where Ike is at a clear disadvantage, because Mario has the % lead from fireball camping.

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It is hard to get inside Ike's range not because of the mechanics of shielding, but because of the very simple concept of range and time. The distance is too far for Mario to make it to Ike. It should be fairly obvious that Mario can't do much to a spaced Fair, and the fact that you are clamoring for an advantage perplexes me.

YagamiLight said:

If you're not going to listen to both sides of the debate, why bother?

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I beg to differ. Only Matador, you, and Burrito said 50:50. Kinzer, X-ace, and A2ZOMG, people who play as Ike, said 60:40. Some dude said 70:30 and that was debunked (lol), and we eventually settled on 55:45.

It's not hard to get inside Ike's range. F-air is huge but it's slow, and like what Kirk always say, if you spam it you're asking for it to be shielded and punished. I'm surprised you haven't talked about SH N-air, which arguably does better than spaced F-airs because of the large IASA frames.

Your argument is not compelling at all, all you talk about is range, range, range. You wanna know who else has more range than Mario? About 90% of the cast. Range is not going to win this argument.

Mario can Up-B Ike's jab cancels btw, and if he DI's upward he can also Up-B the jab combo.

@A2: In Ike's defense, it's not hard for him to kill, but only due to U-Smash. U-Smash covers a lot of range, has a lingering hitbox, and can be charged up to bait air-dodges. Ike's Eruption is also a pretty good edgeguarding technique especially if Mario has to sweetspot the ledge (although with Ike's knockback moves this shouldn't be happening much). Adding onto that, Ike has an awesome ledge-pressure game, seeing as how Mario has a less-than-stellar one.

Light is correct on another point too. 99% of the time, if you can QD back to the ledge, you can also DJ and Aether to the ledge. Lets not kid ourselves though, Mario has a plethora of options to get rid of Ike besides the FLUDD and Cape, and it's quite tiresome when people forget that Mario can edgeguard with aerials and fireballs, which are more than enough to stop Ike.

Btw: I just did this last night. Mario's F-Smash kills Snake at 120%. Snake is the 3rd heaviest character in the game. If you think Mario will have trouble KOing Ike, then I'll have to say you're mistaken.

The chart is looking really good so far .

Oh I think(?) we settled on 40:60 in Wario's favour.

this chart is an awesome idea

I thought we settled Diddy and Snake to be about neutral.

Judge Judy said:

I thought we settled Diddy and Snake to be about neutral.

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That's news to me. >_> I've always been hearing 40:60.

Good thing I made this thread then so we can organize all of this.

HeroMystic said:

That's news to me. >_> I've always been hearing 40:60.

Good thing I made this thread then so we can organize all of this.

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I think we settled on 55:45 in Snake's favor and most of us agreed that Diddy was even.

HeroMystic said:

I beg to differ. Only Matador, you, and Burrito said 50:50. Kinzer, X-ace, and A2ZOMG, people who play as Ike, said 60:40. Some dude said 70:30 and that was debunked (lol), and we eventually settled on 55:45.

It's not hard to get inside Ike's range. F-air is huge but it's slow, and like what Kirk always say, if you spam it you're asking for it to be shielded and punished. I'm surprised you haven't talked about SH N-air, which arguably does better than spaced F-airs because of the large IASA frames.

Your argument is not compelling at all, all you talk about is range, range, range. You wanna know who else has more range than Mario? About 90% of the cast. Range is not going to win this argument.

Mario can Up-B Ike's jab cancels btw, and if he DI's upward he can also Up-B the jab combo.

@A2: In Ike's defense, it's not hard for him to kill, but only due to U-Smash. U-Smash covers a lot of range, has a lingering hitbox, and can be charged up to bait air-dodges. Ike's Eruption is also a pretty good edgeguarding technique especially if Mario has to sweetspot the ledge (although with Ike's knockback moves this shouldn't be happening much). Adding onto that, Ike has an awesome ledge-pressure game, seeing as how Mario has a less-than-stellar one.

Light is correct on another point too. 99% of the time, if you can QD back to the ledge, you can also DJ and Aether to the ledge. Lets not kid ourselves though, Mario has a plethora of options to get rid of Ike besides the FLUDD and Cape, and it's quite tiresome when people forget that Mario can edgeguard with aerials and fireballs, which are more than enough to stop Ike.

Btw: I just did this last night. Mario's F-Smash kills Snake at 120%. Snake is the 3rd heaviest character in the game. If you think Mario will have trouble KOing Ike, then I'll have to say you're mistaken.

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Burrito and I said it was in IKE's favor, not 50-50. Matador, a person who seems logical, and I eventually settled for 50-50. All well and good but then a bunch of Ike seconders and Mario mainers say random ****.

I was trying to convince A2ZOMG that Fair is safe on block, something that he seems to have trouble believing. I didn't mention SHNair much.

It's not just range. It's range, power, priority, weight.

Yes, Mario can Up Jab cancels, but the issue is clearly that you have much more to lose if you whiff it than if you succeed. It's nice to have the option, but it's incredibly risky.

And alright, Mario can KO Ike with a sweet spotted Fsmash near 120%. That's still quite a bit later than Ike's killing time.

woah this looks so slick. Gotta give you props man. Good job!!!

YagamiLight said:

And alright, Mario can KO Ike with a sweet spotted Fsmash near 120%. That's still quite a bit later than Ike's killing time.

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Mario's "perfect" Fsmash kills Ike at about 100 dmg from the center of FD, Ike's Fsmash still kills far earlier but let's get our facts straight here.

Mario's Fsmash does not kill at 100% I've survived quiet a bit higher probably even at 130%.

Also lmao at being forced to use aether. Skyler actually stopped trying to cape my QD because he could never do it. He always ended up being hit instead. Don't know if it's because he sucks (very likely) but mario doesn't shut QD down more than anyone else.

Arturito_Burrito said:

Mario's Fsmash does not kill at 100% I've survived quiet a bit higher probably even at 130%.

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Unstaled, sweetspotted, and tilted up?

Arturito_Burrito said:

Also lmao at being forced to use aether. Skyler actually stopped trying to cape my QD because he could never do it. He always ended up being hit instead. Don't know if it's because he sucks (very likely) but mario doesn't shut QD down more than anyone else.

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FLUDD and cape **** QD.

Arturito_Burrito said:

Mario's Fsmash does not kill at 100% I've survived quiet a bit higher probably even at 130%.

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If I can kill Snake at 120% then I can definitely kill Ike at around 110%.

Also lmao at being forced to use aether. Skyler actually stopped trying to cape my QD because he could never do it. He always ended up being hit instead. Don't know if it's because he sucks (very likely) but mario doesn't shut QD down more than anyone else.

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Skyler sucks.

I don't even need to cape Quick Draw. A simple FLUDD is enough to gimp Ike since it stops him right in front of Mario. Free smash attack.

Do not underestimate Mario's gimp options. He can even gimp Ike with fireballs.

Judge Judy said:

Unstaled, sweetspotted, and tilted up?

FLUDD and cape **** QD.

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unstaled and SSed don't remember if it was angeled.

HeroMystic said:

If I can kill Snake at 120% then I can definitely kill Ike at around 110%.

Skyler sucks.

I don't even need to cape Quick Draw. A simple FLUDD is enough to gimp Ike since it stops him right in front of Mario. Free smash attack.

Do not underestimate Mario's gimp options. He can even gimp Ike with fireballs.

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well thats not 100. is this with DI too? I honestly don't believe killing percents with out DI should be accounted for.

Exactly you don't need to cape QD not even fludd it air dodging and taking hits does the job just as well and mario really has nothing special. Other people can gimp Ike with projectiles too it's not that big a deal really.

How does a fludd stop Ike in front of mario though? you'd have to start shooting it well right when Ike is in front of mario and this just seems like it would result in it hitting you. Unless theres a way to pull ike forward then stop him right out of reach.

Arturito_Burrito said:

well thats not 100. is this with DI too? I honestly don't believe killing percents with out DI should be accounted for.

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Why not? DI or no, it's quite possible, and probable. Looks like we'll have to start saying Link doesn't die until 180% from KO moves since he has the greatest momentum braking in the game.

Exactly you don't need to cape QD not even fludd it air dodging and taking hits does the job just as well and mario really has nothing special. Other people can gimp Ike with projectiles too it's not that big a deal really.

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Point taken I suppose. QD sucks for recovery anyway, but I was addressing the fact that you said Mario can't force Ike to use Aether.

How does a fludd stop Ike in front of mario though? you'd have to start shooting it well right when Ike is in front of mario and this just seems like it would result in it hitting you. Unless theres a way to pull ike forward then stop him right out of reach.

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You basically answered your own question. You just half-charge (or fully charge) FLUDD, wait for Ike to QD, fire, then watch him go to a helpless state, then unleash a smash attack. Repeat if he stupidly continues to do this. If Ike is in a helpless state in the air, cape him to send him to his death.

If it's not charged at all the chances of Ike hitting Mario is pretty decent, but half-charged or higher, it doesn't hit Mario at all since it stops Ike forward momentum almost completely.

Arturito_Burrito said:

Exactly you don't need to cape QD not even fludd it air dodging and taking hits does the job just as well and mario really has nothing special. Other people can gimp Ike with projectiles too it's not that big a deal really.

How does a fludd stop Ike in front of mario though? you'd have to start shooting it well right when Ike is in front of mario and this just seems like it would result in it hitting you. Unless theres a way to pull ike forward then stop him right out of reach.

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Like Hero said, a fully charged FLUDD will stop Ike's QD right in front of him and Mario can follow-up with a cape to gimp him in most circumstances, and we all know how much Mario ***** Aether.

You can speculate as much as you want about Mario's gimping game on Ike but it doesn't change the fact that Mario has better tools than most characters since Ike's SA and disjointedness mean very little against the cape and FLUDD.

Fludd gimps Aether regardless of how high or low you start it...if the droplets of water can touch Ike, it'll push him far enough from the stage to gimp him.

QD, you need relatively good timing to cape it. Fludd works for this too, but it's better to just jump out and airdodge in front of it and let him fall.

Mario does very well vs Ike's recovery; mainly because of the aether thing.

We could use some discussion on G&W and Metaknight to settle the dispute.

Snake and Diddy too.

Hmm...so the Ike debate is done. I will go post this in their match-up discussions threads and see what they have to say.

YagamiLight already notified them on the Ike boards. I'm thinking on just keeping it at 55:45.

Okay, glad to see it's finished .

So I posted the rest of our match-up index on the Diddy, GW, Mk, and Snake boards. Hopefully they come in here and help.

All four of them?

...This is going to get messy. XD

Haha...xD yea all four of them. Uuh...maybe I made us bite of more then we can chew . Woops!

Vs G&W.

65/35 G&W's favor. No longer Mario's worst matchup.

You can Up-B out of shield against a bunch of G&W's stuff, and that can really save you in this matchup.

FLUDD screws up his spacing helping you punish him.

You outspeed him and have a few combos on him at low percents.

Stutter step F-smash > G&W's range.

Jab, D-smash, and F-tilt are very good in this matchup once you get inside G&W's range. So is Up-smash out of shield for KOing him at around 105%.

Still a very difficult matchup though because it's a chore to get inside his range, and he edgeguards you really well with D-airs and F-airs. If you midair jump into his F-air, it will probably gimp you. His D-air hits you out of your Up-B and he will try to stagespike with it.